B (4:25)

Thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

A (4:28)

Yeah, likewise. You know, I'm excited to have you on the show to talk about the current state of philanthropy in the US and you've got a book out, of course, called the Generosity Crisis, and it's raised a lot of questions as we were talking about before the show, and concerns even about the modern state of giving in America. And as you title your book, the question I Want to start out is are we facing a generosity crisis? So I'm asking that for my listeners, asking it to you. So first, give us a quick backstory on what led you and the other two authors to write this book in the first place.

B (4:57)

Yeah. Great, Rob, thanks. And thanks for the opportunity to share how and why we wrote the book, because we don't often get to touch on that, but I love it because there's kind of a meaningful story for me at least. Nathan Chappelle, one of my co authors, was at the time I met him, he was a client. So he had hired my firm. This is probably eight, ten years ago. So ago he was at the City of Hope, the cancer research hospital on the West Coast. And yeah, he was involved with their philanthropy department. And so it was one of those friendships that work relationships that became a friendship. So we jokingly would tell people we'd be working together from 8:30 till 5, and we felt the need to continue the conversation, go out to dinner, go out to have a drink. And he and I really struck up a friendship. But through that friendship, we started talking about our. Both of our mutual loves of the sector, the philanthropic sector, the nonprofit sector. And, and through those conversations, some of the concerns that we were seeing and we were kind of questioning each other. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Giving, you say, comes out every year. At the time, giving was still going up, but we were worried about what was happening underneath it to the percentage of households that were giving, et cetera. So our friendship led to those types of conversations. And candidly, Nathan and I would be at various conferences pre Covid and one time, I know, Nathan said from the stage, from the podium, I was in the audience. He said, somebody needs to write a book about this, about what's happening and, and nothing. And nothing happened, you know, no one really. And then Covid hit and he. I remembered like it was yesterday. Nathan called me and said, remember this thing we've been talking about in the book? And he said, we have this time now with COVID where you and I are going to be off the road. We're going to have, we're going to have more time now. Why don't we just do this? And I was like, you know what, Nathan? I'm all on board. And we got the help of Michael, who joined us as our professional writer. So a friendship that, that connected around our love for our sector led us to writing the generosity crisis.

A (6:42)

I love hearing that. That's excellent. It's so fun to see the collaboration and I need to have Nathan on the show here, too. I've seen him speak quite a bit on this as well.

B (6:51)

Now.

A (6:51)

Okay, let's dive into the meat of the book then. Why do you believe we're heading into a crisis when it comes to giving to nonprofits?

B (6:57)

So this is, I think, fundamentally what is creating the debate in our sector. So when we define the generosity crisis, we define it as what's under stress is the traditional form of giving, right? Writing a check, making a donation online, et cetera. The concept of me moving financial resources that I may have or others to a nonprofit organization. And we believe we have a generosity crisis in that swim lane because the data tells us we are. Right. I think it was just about 15 years ago, 68% of American households were giving to a nonprofit. Last year was 48%. And so it's really, unfortunately, a very straight line. So much so that Nathan and I did the math on this. And if it continues on the trajectory it's going on downward, traditional philanthropy would cease to exist in this country in 49 years. So not that far away. So that just shows you how stark. Now, I know we're going to get into this, but what we get into in the book and what we've gotten into as we've traveled the country is actually define what generosity is, right? So there's money giving is one option. There's so many other ways, and there's been new, you know, GoFundMe, and we'll get into this, have come on the scene. And so I think fundamentally, the definition of generosity, of traditional giving, has manifested and morphed in good ways. So the difference about our book, I think people should understand is I actually think generosity as a community, as individuals, is people reported at all time highs. The traditional giving mechanism is what we talk about in the book. And I'll tell you that one of the reasons why. So the data tells us we have a crisis. And one of the things we touch on in the book is this notion of a competition for connection. And we truly believe, and we lay out pretty detailed this notion that nonprofits once, I think, used to think that they were competing with each other for dollars. What I don't think they realized was they're actually over the last 10 or 15 years, and every year it's getting worse, quote, unquote. They're competing with companies and brands and organizations who position themselves, you know, if you buy our products, we will help the environment. Right. And. And I truly believe the ones that are doing it that right are. Are Doing great work. But if you think about that, that's, that's a competitor. That's, that's, that's another organization. That's another thought process of, wow, I could buy from Patagonia, get a really cool vest and still help the environment. Well, that's a different value proposition than just straight up giving to a nonprofit. And so I think, if you, I think the traditional nature of giving is under stress. The data tells us that. And I think competition for connection is one of the many reasons we get into the book about why we think we're in this crisis mode.

A (9:34)

No, I love you giving that background. And so, okay, let's talk a bit about traditional charitable giving. Maybe you can define that a little bit. What were the parameters of how you defined that for our listeners? Because you said something interesting. You're right. I've had other people on the show. I've talked with other people that are, you know, professional fundraisers. And at one level, generosity is at an all time high. And certainly Covid showed that now it's starting to drop down and drip down to more normal levels, if you will. Having said that, you're right. As I understand your book, the way you define that traditional giving to charitable organizations is changing and going downward and it won't last. You said 49 years, which that's a little scary to any development director, executive director. The alarms start going off and you're like, oh, this is a crisis. Anyway, so, yeah, go into that. Define how you came up with that. What does it mean for the model of traditional giving to charities and how you measured that.

B (10:27)

Yeah. And so it's interesting, this question, because this was one of the things that triggered, I think, Nathan and I to start having conversations about writing a book or getting. Because he was in a nonprofit. As I mentioned City of Hope, I was doing consulting. And so he was telling me, you know, Brian, every year I've got to raise more money from less people because less people are giving to us. And I was like, you know, Nathan, it's funny you should say that, because the last, oh, I don't know, 50 boardrooms I've been in with our clients, everyone's saying the exact same thing. And so I found myself going, wow, there's something going on here. Because every client, they might express it differently, but it was rare. Rob, I'll be honest, even with our best fundraising clients that they were saying to me, oh, we were up 10% year over year for five years in a row, the number of people supporting us. And so. But and what they were getting though was, oh, I'm raising more money, but I'm getting it from less and less people. And so Nathan had that particular experience and then I was seeing it. And so then we went to, you know, Indiana School, Indiana University School of Philanthropies, giving, Giving USA Report every year. And we went back and we were like, wow, something is happening here that they were, they were documenting and think about it, right. Thanks to the great work they do, we have almost 50 years of giving data, of generosity data here in this country, which no other country can say that. And so we were able to go back and piece this story together very, very, very mathematically, if you will, very statistically driven. And we realized, holy cow, something's happening here.

A (11:58)

I love you saying that. Okay. In this sense, you're really trying to be as data driven as possible. And I'm guessing the Indiana School of Philanthropy, I've heard a lot about that. It's underwritten by, I think, Eli Lilly. There's a big grant that helps support that. Yeah. Okay. Because I think we've had some people reference a lot of their studies. Okay. So it does appear from some of these reports that while giving still is pretty solid, when you look a little deeper into the data, the report shows that there's these very large gifts from what we'd call mega donors. Right. And so if you take away those mega donors, those mega gifts, and you look a little bit more just at giving it, nonprofits in general, that's where you see the trends definitely heading downward. Tell us a little bit more about what you found in the research and what you uncovered in the at that School of Philanthropy report.

B (12:39)

Yeah, great, great question. So on the upper end, as you said, the mega donors, I think the statistic was something like if the wrong five people didn't give, and I'm talking about Mackenzie, Scott Bezos, I'm talking about Bill Gates. If they didn't give what they give the last couple of years, we actually would have dropped. So last year in 2022, giving dropped. Most people might be aware, listening, and it was the first time giving in this country ever dropped in a non recession year. And it dropped significantly. And think about it, that is with those folks giving billions and billions of dollars. Right. So our book, it's amazing somebody asked, think, how did you know? Because you put out a book In November of 2022, when giving was still going up every year and we were screaming like, hey, listen, something's happening. Five, six months later, June of 23, our philanthropic market collapsed. If I could be dramatic, our giving dropped. And so you're 100% right. I mean we have those mega donors and thankfully they're doing what they're doing. But they've in some regard, you can say we write in the book a concept called the crowding out effect. Right. If one of them gives to your favorite non profit and let's just say they give $500 million, on some level, do you take a step back and say, well, what is my hundred dollars? My 500? Like what is so. And I think that that's happened. I think that's happening. And the other thing, Nathan really being the data guru of the two of us. Well, he is the data guru for the record. Nathan for the record and AI and machine learning, everything else. But he, he did some calculations based on the Giving USA report that we're referencing now a few times and he actually guesstimated, although within pretty close that I think it was something like 22 million fewer gifts were given last year than the year before. So we have the percentage, we have the percentage of households declining. We have the number of actual just gifts that people are making. Now I know we're going to get to this, but if you think about, you know, giving you, if you think about GoFundMe and some of those things that is crowdfunding, those are mechanisms that are not counted by Giving USA. So one could argue where the 22 million gifts went. Did they go away? I don't know. Did they reappear in a different platform? I think so. So this notion of how generosity is defined is I think what's really fascinating conversation.

A (15:01)

Yeah, well that's good. Okay, so that's really good to hear that because as I mentioned, Michelle Boggs was on the show recently and she talked about that, that and of course she works for Classy, which is now GoFundMe. So it's ironic from the company, you know, that she works for, they are seeing increases in and giving and so maybe we can dive into that a little bit. So yeah, so the idea that as we in our culture when it comes to giving to nonprofits, where you're kind of basically talking about as we move away from the transactional approach, perhaps in development and we needed to move more towards a personal approach, which is GoFundMe is fully personal. It's like one person going to their friends. Right. And their friends of friends. It's super hyper personal, if you will. Right. As opposed to organization that has, you know, the quote dreaded word overhead that people maybe don't want to give to. So is that part of the idea is that you feel like what's going to help nonprofits move forward is to get away from that transactional approach, more to the personal approach? And if so, how do you distinguish between a personal approach versus a transactional approach?

B (16:00)

So, yes, I, I fundamentally believe what you just laid out is it's not rocket science. Right. For anyone who's been in the nonprofit sector, this is what's often discussed. But hard to do, hard to execute. Right. Hard to always be that personal approach. But if you think about. Rob, going back to one of your other questions, I'm going to try to connect a few dots here. You asked about is there a giving crisis? And I hit you with some of the data, right? The very concept. And I love them, so don't get me wrong by this, of a GoFundMe of class, the GoFundMe, the crowdfunding. If you're a traditional nonprofit, just think about and look at the data, which by that I mean if you don't realize that they the concept of what you just said, Rob, you have an unfortunate situation and you and I are friends. I'm giving money, Rob, right away, I don't have to go through a nonprofit in any way, shape or form. I've taken the nonprofit out of the equation. So that's a bit of the crisis that we wanted the nonprofit sector to be aware of as well. So back to your question, which is a really important one. And this is the hopeful part of our book. When we, once we define the problem, we got into what to do about it and the what to do about it. We, we centered on two words called radical connection, which is the personalization is what you're, how you phrased it, which is, which is that's what it is. And we put a lot of time and energy into trying to define the difference between radical connection, personalization versus transactional. Right. And we even have a grid in the book that shows affiliation, association versus radical connection to show that association and affiliation doesn't cut it anymore. We're inundated with information. We're inundated with ads. We're inundated with emails. If I am not radically connected to an organization, I would go so far to say I'm basically not connected. I can come and go as I please. And so there's another threat. But the radical connection, which is what you asked me about, it's fascinating because in the book, I'll say a couple of things to sort of unpack Radical Connection. In the book, I personally talked about two organizations that I felt I have a radical connection to. Both happen to be my alma maters. One's my high school, Chamad High School. The other one is my university, St. John's University in New York. I had no idea, Rob, two years ago, writing the book, that I'd be sitting here today working at Shamnad. Like I have that deep of a connection that I actually recently resigned from Change Our World and joined Shamnad as a, as a chief operating officer. And it's funny because as I've been seeing people for the last two and a half weeks in my new role here, the amount of people have said to me, oh, it made all the sense in the world if you knew that you would move. Because think about that. They knew I had such a connection to this place that when they read the news or the email that I had moved here, they're like, that makes all the sense in the world for them to think that that means they knew the depth of the connection I had to this place and this place had to me. And that's a big difference with Radical Connection. I love one of the points Nathan, I talk about in the book, which, and this is, I love it because it makes people really think a radical connection can't be a one way street the way we defined it. It's like, I know you and you know me. And when you think about that lens, because I've been in front of large, I mean a lot of not for profit leaders over the past 10, 11 months, when I phrase people, I can see people going, huh? Because you start to think about some of the programs you have, dare I say, they might be more one way, you know, you know that person or they don't really know you, or vice versa, when the magic happens is when you get there. And so the final thing I'll say though about it is it's hard getting to personalization, getting to radical connection is really hard. It's what some people would call old fashioned major gift work. It's what some people would call the plan giving world. If you think about it, plan giving experts have been thinking this way forever. So how to do it at scale is the question. How do you get to establish that two way street? And that's where Nathan, his background of data, his work in AI is I think game changing because he has shown through the use of data and intelligence and machine learning and AI the ability to understand. So for nonprofits to do things that would have done you Know, taken a week to do it in an hour to do, to be able to understand things about people so that you can build healthy, organic, sustainable relationships. And so data, we make an argument data solution for us to then get to radical connections at scale, which is what we think nonprofits need to compete in this competition, competing world that we live in. So yeah, radical connection is the pinnacle. It's what jokingly now a lot of people call me and they'll say, I want to tell you something. Did I have a radical connection? So people have been joking with me about it. But I think it's forcing yourself to think deeper about how we're doing some of these things I think was only good can come from that.

A (20:45)

We'll be right back. If you run a nonprofit, you know how fast fees can eat into donations? Well, with Zefy, you keep every penny. No platform fees, no credit card fees. Donors can choose to tip Zefy, but your organization pays zero. You can set up a live form in just a few minutes. It's super easy. If you need donation forms, event ticketing or donor management all in one place without the costs, go to zephy.com register and give it a try. Okay, well this is good to know because. And we're going to get a little bit more like we've already started with some of the positive side of what you're offering with some of the trends that you've seen. Maybe what we could do is just back up a little bit. You know, this crisis is not just for the nonprofit world. We obviously are talking about giving to nonprofits, but when we think about the problems in the world, affordable housing or lack of affordability when it comes to housing, food insecurity, hunger, those kinds of issues are huge issues. Right. And I've had multiple people on the show talking about it's not just the nonprofit sector that can respond and try to help alleviate these situations. It's government sector. It's the for profit sector and the nonprofit sector working together. So maybe we could stop just for a second and say what is the, what role, if any, does the government sector and the for profit sector have that can either alleviate or make worse this generosity crisis that we're talking about?

B (22:09)

Wow, that's a great question. Because there's so much to unpack. I'll try to keep it fairly high level. Just, I mean, for the sake of where we might go from here. So I'm going to start off on the negative, then I'm going to go positive. So like on the ne, I don't Know if it's negative, but it's. If you think about it, the comment I made earlier about Patagonia and buying, buying, buying a sweater and then also getting, you know, my money's going to help the environment as well. Companies with their cause marketing and their CSR programs, and I love the groups that do that really well. They've done that so well that surveys of younger, younger folks, when asked who can actually solve our problems. Rob, that you, a company or Nonprofit, those under 25 years of age answered companies.

A (22:52)

Oh, interesting.

B (22:53)

Okay, so that's, that's another crisis if you're leading a nonprofit. That's true. The younger generation coming behind us doesn't even think you're the answer.

A (23:02)

Right, right.

B (23:02)

They're thinking companies are the answer, which is, wow, we found ourselves in a different place. Right. A place in time. And so one could argue, many people have since I wrote the book. Oh, come on, Brian. Most of these companies only do that stuff. So they, so they can raise, they can generate more sales, they can make more money. You know, and I. My counter to that is. Sure. But when you do see a company like Patagonia doing what they're doing. Right. They creating themselves as a nonprofit. Earlier this year, some interesting things are happening there. But going back to your point, I am a big believer in the fact that the role of government, the role of companies, the nonprofits, the challenges we face are so big, are so complicated. No one sector can solve them alone. I don't believe that. Otherwise they would have solved them already. Right. I honestly believe that. And so I think there's a massive role for the government. Massive. I mean, let's be honest. The government's the largest funder of nonprofits, if we want to call us, call a spade a spade. And there's expertise there. There's certainly expertise, data, knowledge, research happening in corporate America that can, if directed the right way. And some of it is helping solve some of this. And then there's the on the ground knowledge. No one knows these challenges better than nonprofits. No one. And so when you put all that together, that's my belief, personal. That's the only way we're going to solve the challenge that you put out on the table, Rob. And I will then say one more thing. If nonprofits could articulate this, that this is the role we play. But then understand, because I think more and more donors know what I just said. The sophisticated donors say, not for profit. X, Y and Z. You can't do this alone. Who are you partnering with? And the More those collaborations are talked about, are set up. I think more money is going to flow, if you know what I'm saying. I think a donor would get really excited by nonprofit X getting data from corporate y company Y about an issue. And, you know, think about this. Nathan and I were talking a few months back in front of a big company, and I. I don't. I won't say the name. They asked us to come in and on the plane right out, I was reading about this company and I read a stat that shocked me. And I. The night before I had dinner with Nathan, I'm like, you're not going to believe this. He's like, what? I go, this company spends $1.3 billion a year on research and development. $1.3 billion on research and development. I said, do you know a nonprofit that even has a research development budget? Never mind. Right? No. Yeah. So think about, just think about that. Right? So they're researching and developing, obviously, to make sure they're as best of company their product. But there's gotta be lessons learned there that could help. And this particular company was in agriculture. I guarantee what they're learning could be helpful to feeding America. I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. But that type of collaboration, I think, is what we do.

A (25:46)

I love that. No, that's a great example. And I think, I mean, you said several things. I'm like, absolutely no one sector can solve these issues. They're just too big. And interestingly, you're right. For particularly when you think of those really, really large grants. The government sector is one of the largest supporters of nonprofits. Right. And yet you said it so well. I think there's no better group that knows and understands the problems as nonprofits because they're typically on the ground level, they're at the grassroot level, and they attract people that have such passion because they really want their whole kind of work life essentially to be about a mission. And so that drives them to work at these nonprofits. And they typically are very passionate and go the extra mile. Right. To really understand what the issue is and try to solve it. Okay, so having that as if you were to train or consult a nonprofit, how would you coach them to basically list out here is the niche that we play? And so. And so, government sector, nonprofit, or sorry, for profit sector, corporate America, here's what we need you to do. How would you coach them to verbalize that? How do they communicate that without maybe undercutting their own fundraising ability? Right.

B (26:51)

Great question. I'VE been a big, I've always been a big fan of context. And so the best advice I would give, I've given it when I was doing consulting is it's not enough anymore to say nonprofit. We, this is our mission, this is the great work we do. These are even our outcomes. Are you moving the needle in the bigger issue? So talk to donors, talk to company. Be like, I'm making up the numbers, Rob. You know, there's, this is a 20, this problem affects 20 million people. And we through our efforts are actually addressing 3 million of those 20. Right. Because if you think about it, number one, that's showing people how efficient and effective you are at delivering your programs. Number two, to your point, if the government says really, you're really having that much success with 3 million, why don't we give you a government grant to double it to get to 6 million? Right. Context to me is the simple but not so simple way of answering your question, what advice would I give? Because too often we as the nonprofit community, we're so, you know, we're as you said, passionate, but we're so caught up. And I don't mean that just the day to day work we do, which is so encompassing, it prevents us sometimes from actually taking a step back and zooming out and seeing the problem, seeing the picture from 30,000ft. And I think if they were dead, they could then not only have healthier conversations, I think they could position their documents, their case statements, their annual, whatever the mechanism for funding is. And I think it might even open up some interesting partnerships that might emerge.

A (28:14)

Now that's really well said. No, I like that. I like how you answer that. I think it'd be very helpful for my listeners. Okay. Now we started out with this generosity crisis. A lot of the negativity of the trends you're seeing, we did briefly chat about there are some positive trends and there's some ways that you give in the book, in terms of ways you're recommending nonprofits to kind of shift in terms of their development approach, specifically this radical connection, and be more personalized. So I will just highlight, as I mentioned before, I've had some guests on the show specifically recently with Michelle Boggs, who's from Classy and gofundme in that particular epis. And if you're my listener, you can definitely check that episode out if you missed it for some reason. But we've thread a couple of stats. For example, there's some, I think, positive stats again going to this generosity crisis that we're facing Gen Z, they found through studies they're still willing to give to charitable organizations despite economic hardships. And certainly we've gone through that with COVID and we see that Gen Z is still giving now not at a percentage level because they don't have the capacity and they just sheer dollars as, you know, older generations, but they're still willing to give even in the midst of economic hardships. We also found through some research that 90% of donors are willing to match giving year over year if they're, I'm going to guess if they're radically connected to your nonprofit. Right. But that's a pretty good rate, 90% to do it over, you know, a couple of years, you know, successively. That's exactly what every nonprofit leader wants as repeat givers. And then loyal donors impact, they found, is four times higher than just simply passive donors. So if you're able to get those loyal donors. And again, my guess is this part of what your book is talking about, that radical connection with people you probably are turning into loyal donors to your organization. So again, from your research, let's talk a little bit more about the positive side or the opportunities that give you hope that nonprofits that maybe still are stuck a little bit in the traditional ways can still bring in money for the organizations so their mission can go forward.

B (30:02)

Yeah, I think you laid out some really great stats and some great context to that. I think one of the things I want to say just sort of at the onset of this is the not there's. There's no better sector than the nonprofit sector to reverse this trend. And I mean that. That's why I wrote the book. As Nathan and I have said a lot of times, we hope there's never a need for anyone to write a book about generosity in the negative connotation, the generosity crisis, ever again. Because the nonprofit community, you know, it was probably about 20 years ago, we could argue exactly what year, but technology came on and there were some great tools that enabled us to connect with more people and raise more money. But unfortunately it created, I think, a world in which the transactional, which you and I talked about earlier, just became too easy to do. And in doing so, I think we kind of took it for granted. And in doing so taking it for granted, we sort of let those relationships fade away from those people that may be now having said that, but getting them back is something I think the nonprofit world does better than anybody. Right. If you think about it, the Edelman Trust Barometer report that comes out every year measures the Trust of an organization on two axis. One is ethics and the other is competency. Nonprofit community has always been the high ground on ethics. We've all we've lacked against companies and government in the competency. So what Nathan and I have talked about with people is think about ways as the not any nonprofit leaders who are listening think about how you can through storytelling, through communications, through other. Explain to people how competent you are. Because if we move on the competency meter, the trust is going to even go even higher. So that goes back to my point which is this notion of. You said it really well. Almost every organization I consulted with for 22 years always had that loyal group. What my message, our message is you have to lean into those people. You have to get to know them even more because I've seen it too often during COVID those people gave even more. Those people were with you thick and thin. And a big message from our book is not everyone's your prospect. Right, Those. And you have to pay attention to those who are signaling to you that I'm radically connected to you, whether you know it or not. Because not to say you should put all your eggs in there, but that's, that's a group you have to understand, you have to acknowledge, you have to communicate with and just make sure you're doing all those things. The last piece, and I think we've touched on this a bit, but I just want to bring it around is the younger generation is I think, as I said earlier, I think going to be more generous than the generations that it's following. The definition of what they mean by it though is changing is what I. So when they answer the question, am I generous? It could be rob that I supported you on a run or a walk that you were doing or a sleep out, right? And I could have done it through a GoFundMe page or I could have done it right? So to me, the 17 year old version of Brian Crimmins, I would have answered, yeah, be generous. But I would, I knew myself at 17. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have known or appreciated the role nonprofits play. You know, and so that's the. So I am absolutely bullish to answer your question that nonprofits can reestablish this. I, I know it in my heart. I know it my core. It's what we did. We just lost our way a little bit over the last 20 years. Technology got away from us I think a little bit. And, and it took away that human element. I absolutely think we can get it back I know we can. And I'm, I'm very bullish on the next generation being, being even more generous than our generation and it how they're doing it that the not for profit world needs to go meet them where they are. I think we can't expect that they're going to come to us the way that things have always been done now.

A (33:35)

Well said and I appreciate that. I think that's a fair assessment essentially. And also there is hope for nonprofit leaders. So if you're listening, don't be just hear all doom and gloom. But there are things you can do to make a difference. Okay, so we've talked about a lot of things. Is there anything else from your research in this book and just what you've done with nonprofits that you think is important when it comes to these changes, challenges we're facing specifically around fundraising. Anything else you want to share real quick before we wrap this up?

B (34:01)

Yeah. And thank you for this question because there's something that I'm going to say that I wish I had thought about, known to write about in the book. And so what I mean is what I'm going to tell you to answer your question is this is something I've learned as we've gone around the country talking to nonprofit leaders, which is this. It is no longer the challenge that the development and the fundraising teams are facing, good and bad. It's no longer their issue. It can't be. It has to be an organizational issue. It cannot be, oh, those are the guys, men and women down there who go raise money and we talk to them when we need to fill them. It has to be an organizational wide initiative. You have to have people in every aspect of the organization looking and striving for radical connections because it will help the whole. And so that is a simple but not a statement that I want to say is as we got out, I realized the generosity crisis is not a development fundraising challenge to be fought alone. It's an organizational issue. It starts, I would go so far as say it starts with the boards. Boards need to understand the amount of non profits rob that we've had ask us come present to their boards because to wake up their board members eyes to this world that's happening, this challenge, everything you and I have been talking about for the last few minutes because and I said amen, like let's do it. We have to start because change, it can happen, but with the board's help, it'll happen faster. With the leadership's help of an organization, it'll Happen faster and there'll be more understanding of why we need to do this. And so that's my big lesson which or point that I want to get across everybody.

A (35:33)

I love it. Brian, thank you so much. It's super helpful. This is such an interesting conversation. I think it's something we need to continue to have conversations about and discussions about. I encourage my listeners, check out the book Generosity Crisis. You can look up Brian Crimmins. In fact, let me just ask you, what's the best way for people that are listening to this podcast to connect with you personally and find out more about your book?

B (35:52)

Great, thanks. The website generositycrisis.com, some great stuff there. As a matter of fact, there's some free materials. There's been so many book clubs that have popped up around our book that we put a book club guide on there. We put some of the lessons around Radical connection, what to look for. So there's some free resources on the site, but generositycrisis.com and also a LinkedIn for myself, Brian Crimmins, and now I'm at the COO of Shawmut High School. So LinkedIn for me personally, but to hear more about the book, our website.

A (36:19)

Well, that's great. Well, again, such a fascinating conversation. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your insights and thanks for writing this book.

B (36:26)

Yeah, thanks, Rob. Thanks for the opportunity to have this discussion with you.

A (36:28)

Absolutely. Good stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to, like, subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadership podcast podcast.org well, thanks again for listening. And until next time, keep making your world better. If you run a nonprofit, here's some good news. With ze, you keep every cent of every online donation. No platform fees, no credit card fees ever. My clients have used it. It's quick to set up, super clean to use, and it just works. Check it out@zefy.com register and make sure every dollar goes where it's needed most.