← Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
One Social Impact Leader’s Journey of Leadership and Personal Growth
00:34:24
Jill Koski In this episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, host Dr. Rob Harter is joined by Jill Koski, President and CEO of the Morton Arboretum, a leading environmental nonprofit located just outside of Chicago.
Loading summary
Transcript25 lines
- [00:02]
A
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show. And it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are, who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Hello everybody, and welcome to the show. I'm your host, Rob Harder. Thanks so much for tuning in today. So this whole podcast, when I first started it, it's always been about leadership and helping you become a better leader, helping organizations develop more leadership within their organization, develop a culture of leadership development. So this guest today will talk all about her own leadership journey. In fact, it's a pretty personal invitation to learn about her today. And she'll share about her own journey of going to different positions and finally landing at a kind of her dream job, actually. And so what we'll do along the way, we're going to talk a bit about her journey to leadership, but also the decisions along the way, even the setbacks along the way that helped shape her leadership experience and, and the leader she is today. So we'll talk about her passion, but also talk about how passion's not always enough. You need not just passion, but systems to put in place to actually continue to move forward with your organization. Another big leadership skill is the ability to say no. It's not original with me, but it's been said that your nos are more important than your yeses. And I would say absolutely true, particularly if you're leading an organization that is growing and you cannot do all the things you used to do, even a year ago, two years ago, certainly five years ago. And I found with nonprofits, it's pretty common for executive directors or CEOs or presidents of their nonprofit organization. They wear lots of hats, and that's partly what got them into the role originally because they're good at a lot of things. But as that organization grows, you have to specialize and focus and narrow what you put your time into. So your nos really do become more important than your yeses. So it's another thing we talk about. My guest today is Jill Koski, and she's the president and CEO of the Morton Arboretum, which is just outside of Chicago. I'm, I'VE actually been there myself. I used to live in Chicago and it is fantastic place. And so to hear a bit of the background of her story, how she got into this role and what she's learning along the way is really fascinating. So as always, love having you tuning into the show. Now onto my interview with Jill. This podcast is sponsored by Donorbox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms you in the business. Well, welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, Jill. Thanks so much for being on the show today and I'm excited to talk all about leadership with you. This is of course a leadership podcast. We're dedicated to that to provide great resources and introduce my listeners to great leaders like yourself. So first, I always like to start with giving people an opportunity to share their story of and particularly for your story specifically, what first inspired you to pursue a career in environmental nonprofits which then ultimately led you to now becoming the president and CEO of the Morton Arboretum?
- [03:24]
B
Sure, that's a great question. And you know, I'll start by just saying it was a bit of a long and windy road, meaning that I didn't know this job existed. When I was beginning my career journey when I was in high school, college, this was not on my radar and I feel really fortunate to have landed where I am. You know, I started out, I was an arts and culture kid growing up. So drama theater, that side of the world and so kind of makes sense that I veered into the sort of cultural community. But I think the the pathway of really focusing on all science based cultural institutions is the thing that I couldn't have imagined. But now when I look back, you know, when you start to see how the threads start to tie together, it makes a lot more sense. You know, I grew up in Wisconsin, but spent a lot of time outdoors when I was a kid. We had a field next door, played in the field, and we had a family camp in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, so spent time out in the woods. It was natural for me to be outdoors and I believe everyone has a tree story. I work for the Morton Arboretum, so I'm a bit biased, but we had a huge white oak in the front yard of our subdivision and it was sort of a guiding light. It was the only large oak within like our community. So there was a lot of story around that tree. So when you start to put those pieces together. I went to college, liberal arts degree in political science, but I ended up getting a job through my sister. A friend of hers worked in a cancer research lab. I probably took this job from some biology student. But you know, I got a job through a friend as sort of a glorified dishwasher. I was great at autoplaying, but worked in a cancer research lab for two years. And it really taught me that science was and could be an accessible, like not scary pathway for someone who leaned, I said, more into arts and culture or history, political science. And when I got out of college, I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. And I was working actually in human services, residential childcare, a lot of time on my hands as a 23 year old. So I started volunteering at the Chicago Children's Museum, had a great mentor, introduced me to the world of museums and cultural institutions and ultimately got me my first job at what's now the Peggy Note of Art Nature Museum. So science, sort of natural history of Chicago, regional based museum, went on to shut aquariums, sort of living collections for 10 years and ultimately landed in a place really close to my heart. When the job opportunity came forward for me to move to the Morton Arboretum to sort of start and build their fundraising programs. I opened my desk drawer at home while I was putting my resume together and I found a list that tucked away literally, probably, I don't know, at least a few years earlier of the top places I'd work in Chicago. I had completely forgotten, but the Morton Arboretum was at the top of the list. So close to who I am as a person and tied so personally to my values and my interests and, and I've never looked back once I entered the public garden world. And now I feel incredibly fortunate after working here for 11 years in the fundraising role, moving to Ohio to run a different arboretum and garden for about five years and then coming back. And I believe so deeply that the work of public gardens, and especially the work that people aren't aware of, which is really the role we have in science and plant conservation now more than ever. It's urgent, important work and again, your past sometimes takes you places you might not have imagined. But as you look back, it all kind of threads together. I just really grounded in my work now and energized by it at the same time. And there's just so much to be done.
- [07:10]
A
Thank you so much for sharing a bit of your journey today. And I no doubt leadership is a journey and I'm wondering, as you think back, about your leadership journey up to this point. Maybe there's some setbacks, maybe victories, maybe both. What have been some of your biggest setbacks and or victories during this leadership journey that has most shaped you as a leader.
- [07:28]
B
Now, the one that comes to mind, I have two kids, they're 22 and 24. So going to be finishing college and just starting. And one of the lessons I've learned along the way is that sometimes it's not your turn. And that's a really hard lesson. And what I mean by that is, first of all, my kids don't see my pathway between college and my first job where I worked a lot of honestly odd jobs in between getting to that first job at that. At the nature museum. That sort of launched me to where I'm going now. But there was, you know, there was some floating around and some challenge in the beginning, but then this. It's not your turn. Along the way, you apply for what looks like the best opportunity. I should definitely get it. I'm the right person, whether it be a paid position or I remember applying for professional leadership opportunities or professional growth societies and not getting picked. And it's really hard not getting picked and. And then meaning, what does that mean for me? When I look back, it's very interesting how, you know what, it wasn't the right time and it wasn't my time, and maybe that wasn't the opportunity. If I would have gone in that direction, I wouldn't be where I am now. And I learned some tough lessons in humility and being humble and remembering, too, that it's not personal. I think I've also learned along the way that especially as a hiring manager leader now, that I'm not picking someone because they're oftentimes not because they're not qualified, but because you need the right fit or the right work style to add to your team in that moment. And you want a diverse team. And sometimes you make choices that are really difficult, and it's hard when that choice isn't you. And I've learned that along the way. I also learned. So I mentioned earlier that I moved to Ohio for my first CEO job running what's now Holden Forest and Gardens in Northeast Ohio. Amazing place. And I've been really lucky to have long. 10 years. I was at my first organization for four years, Shot Aquarium for 10, the Arboretum for 11. And I was really ready for a CEO position. And I really wanted it to be here. I had never lived anyplace outside of Chicago, but what I realized is I'd been given every opportunity I could within this region or Chicago. And in order to take the CEO opportunity that was going to keep me in this field and that ultimately would give me the experience that brought me back home. I needed to leave. And it was the hardest thing I'd ever done, professionally and personally. And I will also say it was the best decision I ever made. And I learned so much. Our family learned a lot. Moving to Ohio together with two kids in high school, it was the hardest job I ever had and the most rewarding. And it's an incredibly proud moment for me that I made that move, made that choice, and was able to make a really big difference at Holden Forest and Gardens at a time of great transition there. And it was hard to leave and come back, to be perfectly honest. Like, I left, and I'm amazed. It was a really difficult choice to come back, but this was an opportunity then that I decided ultimately I couldn't pass up either. So there's a lot of lessons along the way. You have to constantly be reminding yourself that you have to be focused on the long term, and sometimes you have to trust the process.
- [10:55]
A
Well, as you share your journey with us a little bit in your own personal stories, definitely sense of passion that comes out of you, it's very natural. And I find a lot of social impact leaders have passion, and it's a wonderful thing. In fact, that passion is something I look for when we hire people. You want that passion for a mission, for a cause. And yet the longer I'm leadership, specifically in the social impact sector, passion isn't enough, right? Passion will get you only so far. In fact, it's been said, not original with me, our passion is not enough. In other words, it's not just our passion, but our patterns. They'll actually move us forward and get the results that you really want as a leader? So I'm wondering for you, what are some of those key habits, those patterns, those systems that you put into place that have really helped you grow as a leader as you've journeyed and taken on more responsibility?
- [11:42]
B
I've been asking my staff, I do opening questions when we have leadership meetings, and my recent favorite question, because it's so interesting to me, is, what is your superpower? You know, what do you today? Like, what are you bringing today? Like, what's the superpower you're bringing today? Or what do you bring every day? Like, what is yours? And mine is really simple. If I'm good at nothing else, I'm good at sorting and organizing. It's like, I'm a great sorter. And what I mean by that is setting priorities. Like, I can walk in every day, and my day is never the same. It's never what I'VE planned gen, you know, overall. And I've really learned how to say this is what I need to be doing right now. And it's only these three things. And these things, three things I can set aside. And I also think delegating or understanding what I don't need to do is and what someone else can do better than me. You're talking about patterns or habits, but I think these are things you have to practice. I was talking today with my executive assistant and I was saying that it took me a long time to figure out how to work with someone and not do it all myself and to understand what I could let go and what I needed to keep on my own plate. So, you know this interesting thing I've learned, I make lists I go through at the beginning of every day. I come in and figure out and I usually have a post it note what are the three things I need to get done today. And I have a much longer list of about like 50 things that I want to get done over a period of time. But I'm constantly updating and revising that list in sort of an old school way. And then at the end of the day I actually resort myself again. And I need a lot of white space. Some people think all the creative energy or juice comes from your office should be really messy. My office, if I could show you the whole background, isn't messy. It's actually incredibly neat. But for me, I need white space and blank space to open up ideas. And I also need to walk away some time. I left today. Even though I was planning for this podcast and doing other things, I made sure to take 20. I probably took a 20, 30 minute walk today and I was still thinking of processing. But I need that processing space. And my last tip is I work really hard. We keep Friday open on my calendar until hopefully I get to that week, unless it's really a priority because then we have a place to put something that can go no place else. And ideally I just have a day where I can and that's the day I actually work. I get everything done that I can do earlier in the week. But I don't know, there's a lot of things that I do, but I think it's sorting, organizing and then just really learning how to manage your own time. And you've got to take a break. I mean, you really need blanks.
- [14:24]
A
White space for yourself, really resonate with your rituals, your systems in wanting blank space. I'm very similar to you in terms of wanting a real clean workplace. Uncluttered, in other words. I mean, they've done some studies on that that oftentimes clutter. Now, again, sometimes it's a personality trait, but in general, clutter can actually keep you from being focused and be as effective with your time because you're so busy kind of being pulled into all these different directions of whatever's on your desk, whatever is in your room, your office. So I think there's some data to back up that having an uncluttered space and then really that blank space mentally and otherwise emotionally, to really help you be effective. So thanks for sharing that. I think, again, I resonate with that.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah, you know, it's funny, I'm interested in everything and so I think I'm like, yeah, I need that because otherwise I'll be distracted because I'll be like, oh, that's really interesting over there.
- [15:16]
A
We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations, and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. i do think a lot of executive directors get to the point where they have a lot of interest in a lot of things. That's partly what got them there. And that's why they're good at what they're doing, because they have a lot of interest in a lot of things. However, when you start growing your organization, you often have to say no just as much as yes. And again, it's not original with me, but some people would say that your nos are even more important and significant than your yeses because your nos are really you setting boundaries around what you cannot do and what you must do. And so saying no is just as important as saying yes, maybe more. So talk about that with your experience. Have you had that same experience? And what have been some of the no's that have been the most impactful for you to be able to stay focused and actually be more successful as a leader.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah. You know, this is also something. It takes a lot of practice to say no because as you said, you know, we get into these roles and you're interested in a lot of different things. And I see opportunity in so many different ways. Like I can connect the dots to things that are pretty tangential to what we're doing. And yet what I need to do every single day is remind ourselves we have a really clear mission that's been informed place for more than 100 years. It has not changed. We have a good strategic plan, and we have three strategic priorities. And then constantly what I'm thinking about is how do we stay in our lane? And when someone, you know, when I'm meeting with someone else, when I'm out and about and someone has a great idea, I constantly have to get back and saying, you know, that is a really great fit for us. Or it could be a great fit, but do we need that right now or do we have the bandwidth? I can't do everything. So it's like really constantly using your mission as your guiding light and making sure you're really clear on your priorities. I would say, you know, some of the things that I found most difficult to say no to in a leadership journey are no. I have a really hard time not wanting to join or be a part of something. And you see someone else who's maybe in a similar role or a similar position and running a similar organization, participating in, I don't know, some sort of external activity or some new partnership or relationship, and you want to be there too. And I say, like, this is no of saying no to the bait. It's hard to say no. And I think about it as like, sort of fear of missing out, like joining every activity or every organization. And so saying which. Which outside external things am I going to put my heart into and set, like, what is the best place for art for me to be present to advance our organization right now? And sometimes that means I have to let go of something that would otherwise be maybe a really good opportunity. I can't be in every civic club or organization. And the other thing that's hard is when I have to say, oh, it can't be me. And actually what will be better is it should be someone else from my team. And actually that's really important. So it's saying no, because it's not about me. I think that's it. It's not about me. It's about my organization. And I, first of all, shouldn't always do it. Even if I have the battle, it's sometimes it's better for me to say no and give the opportunity to someone else on my team so that they can be lifted up and they can do perhaps a different job differently than me, different job than me, differently than Me, but it'll be as good for the organization and even better for them. I mean, so I have the hardest time saying no to things like that. Like I just see. So I say no every single day and also no to meetings. I'm just going to say that I can be in every meeting all day long. And instead I have to say when don't I need to be there and when do I need to just trust I have an amazing team in place. My notes are all about people.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah. No. I love that you say no. Not just for your own boundaries and your own self, self care, if you will and be able to stay focused on what you are supposed to do in your role. But say no for other people. I like that that you're. By saying no, then you're allowing other people to fill that space to represent the organization for their own personal growth. So I think that's excellent. You know, as I think about other things that you specifically as an executive director, you know the leader of your organization. And I think about my listeners who are also a CEO executive director in their roles. Oftentimes this is true. And I feel like in the social impact sector that you end up doing things that are well beyond your job description. In other words, you will first take the job, particularly if you've grown an organization. When you first got there, you were doing a lot of things, wearing many hats. As you grow the organization, you get more specialized. You can hire more specialists to take on certain things like maybe fundraising off your plate or take the finances right off your plate, things like that over time. Here's the challenge I found a lot of executives run into is that they're good at a lot of things, but they're really good or they're excellent at just a few things. And I've read a lot of books where there's a big debate about this, that when it comes to your strengths, that you ought to focus even more so on your strengths and really either mitigate your weakness altogether by not doing them or by hiring them out by handing them to other people that are good at them. But I've also heard other people say, well, that's not a luxury for a lot of nonprofit leaders. They still have to do certain things. Maybe they're not as good at, they're not excellent at. How have you balanced that? Where you're maybe put in positions where you've got say two or three really excellent leadership strengths in a certain area, but you're being asked, still in your role to do things that maybe don't rise to that top level of leadership strengths. How do you mitigate those and how do you manage that?
- [21:34]
B
My entire career was sort of programming and then fundraising. So development, marketing, that's sort of my area of great comfort. And I, first of all, especially I came back to an organization where I had had the role of chief fundraising officer and many people here knew me in that role. And so I'll just say that coming back, I had to really draw some clear boundaries and redefine my position and say, I am no longer head of development, I don't want to be head of development. And so I had to be very aware when I, when even I was being asked out of habit on the part of others to like provide input, to put, you know, to say, you know what, I probably have a lot of opinions or ideas on that, but I'm going to let you just talk with folks in development about that and not me. And, and that it has to be a really conscious and intentional thought process because I will naturally jump into that or I'll just have an answer and I'll just like roll back into what I used to be doing. I also have to err on not just doing that too. You know how you, when you're in a period of crisis or if you're, I don't know, if something's going on, you default to like what you know best. So that's one piece of it. I also, working at a science based organization, am in a really interesting position because I am not a scientist by training. I am not a plant scientist, I am not a horticulturalist, I'm not a plant expert, I know a lot, but I am a lay person. So I'm in a really interesting role of really having to watch where I can speak broadly about and be the number one advocate for why public gardens and arboreta are absolutely essential and critical to community and economic development and growth, to our societal well being. I can speak to broad science work that we're doing and what it is and why it's important. But I have to defer most, you know, many times to my scientific team, my plant experts, to be the face or the voice of science. And I will say it is a real gift to be in this role and to know that my gifts are best fitted and best suited to being the CEO. But that does not make me the expert in plants and science when it comes to our mission based work. And I learn every single day on my job. And the gift I have is that I'm out there and I'M exposed to this like class. I'm in a learning mode all of the time and I get to showcase the really amazing, brilliant people who work in the areas that require specific science conservation expertise. So I think for me, I'm reminded every day what my strong suit is and, and where others need to lead. And, and it's also I think maybe why I'm working an organization where I don't work at a fundraising organization. Meaning like I chose not to go down a consulting pathway in fundraising. I chose to work at a place where I'm constantly learning from everyone that's around me. And at all levels of the organization, there are people in entry level positions within our collections and horticulture team who teach me things when I'm out with them every single day.
- [25:04]
A
Well, I know there was a leadership expert that once said, when it comes to particularly those who in C suite level positions or key leadership positions, your job is not to be the smartest or most accomplished person in the room. You're just to be the leader in the room. And I like how you're focused on, you're the leader. You may not be an expert on this, this and that, but you are the leader of the organization. That's your role. So I think you've done that well. And oh, speaking of that, I want to congratulate you. I learned that you're the first woman to lead the Morton Arboretum and it's a hundred year history. Congratulations. That's a big deal. Tell us more about your journey up to this point to get there and what has it been like and to have this milestone. Specifically, what, what has it meant to you personally?
- [25:42]
B
It's an incredible privilege. And so fourth leader of the institution as well. We were founded by Joy Morton. So founder of Morton Salt Co. I think the Morton Salt girl. And I will tell you, I talk about Joy every single day. If anyone on my team is listening to this, they hear me say that every single day. But I think of Joy Morton every single day because I am just in awe of his vision and foresight more than a hundred years ago to understand and to choose that his estate, his legacy, would be gifting an arboretum. So he not only set up an endowment through his estate, but he also made possible these 1700 acres in a suburban urban area. And so for me, it's just a real privilege and an honor to now be entrusted. I was hired right at our 100th year anniversary. So I was hired in 2020, the year we turned 100 years old. And the interview, the Board said, well, your job is to figure out the next hundred years. And that can be a little daunting and overwhelming. But it also really inspired me to constantly be thinking about how can I sort of grab some of Joy Morton's vision of thinking. My job isn't to be thinking about what's going to happen today or tomorrow or even the next year. We're almost done with annual planning for 2026 on the calendar. And I'm first of all, we're in middle of 25. I'm already in 26. And actually my job is to think about further out than that. Right. Constantly those next steps. So, you know, I mentioned earlier, our mission hasn't changed for more than 100 years. If you read the original Trust Indenture, our mission is in there and it has not changed. And now to think about the fact that the mission of this organization is more as relevant, maybe more relevant, the urgency of addressing the impacts of climate change, making people aware of the undeniable relationship we have with the plant world, trees, plants, the natural world around us is more important than ever. And I will tell you, I have a great board, a great staff, and everyone here. You talked about passion earlier. No matter what role is here, it's really amazing that everyone is like sort of marching in sync to that same mission. Passion and drive. And I wake up every day just thinking, you know, what I'm trying to do is to do my job for the next person and the next person after that who comes after me. And hopefully a hundred years from now, I'll just have added to some of that story along the way. It's a privilege and an honor, and I pinch myself every day that I've been given this opportunity.
- [28:43]
A
Well, another word I have to say, this is too in row. We have to brag on you a bit. I understand you were recognized as community leader of the year for Environment and Sustainability. So I'm thinking of my listeners, particularly maybe emerging leaders who really want to make a difference in their community, want to make a difference through the nonprofit that they're a part of. What advice would you give to other leaders seeking to drive positive change in their communities from what you've been able to accomplish?
- [29:06]
B
Yeah. So, you know, we work at a community level at the Morton Arboretum, both regionally, sort of in the Chicago region and on a global level as well. So in communities in Baja, in Mexico, Costa Rica, Vietnam, and, you know, we work in a lot of different places. And what's interesting is the through line is all the same and it's all the same tenets. First of all, when you go out into a community and you work with them, it's not about the Morton Arboretum, it's their community. And it takes time and you have to move at the speed of the community. And we have to go in and say sort of we would like to partner with you. What do you need? And is there something that we can offer we don't have? We don't go in having the answers for any one community. That community typically knows what they need and what they're doing and they've expressed some interest and that's why we're out there working with them. But it's about meeting them on their terms and meeting people where they're at. And it's also not a short term investment. There is no community work that is about a one and done. Just a go in and do a one day type of project that's not really community engagement and development. It's about saying we're doing you want to be and how can we help you. And it's also about capacity building. So the other tenant of any type of community work is that in some ways our job is to work ourselves out of the job with that community that we're going in saying, hey, what do we have that might be of assistance to you? And it is also different in every single community. There's no cookie cutter in any type of community work. That being said, this sounds like it takes time. It takes dedicated investment, typically a multi year commitment of time. I'll speak to the funder community. These are about multi year investments. This isn't all. And it's not always about a shiny new object. It's about good hard work that lays a foundation. But I'll tell you it's also the most rewarding work because everything that I describe is based in the fact that it's about building relationship and being in a relationship with that community. It's not about going in and just doing a, I don't know, a project or getting the job done. It's about building a relationship with the people who are there, understanding the specific needs that they have and then adjusting and modifying to work with them for shared goals. And you talked earlier about difficult times saying no. It also means that at times, you know what, you may go in with all the intentions and really wanting to work in a certain community, but maybe you aren't the best fit. And I hope what we can do is say, oh my gosh, this is an amazing project. But let me introduce you to these partners over here who are a better fit. So good community work is about really remembering that it's not our community, it's typically someone else's community. And we're there to support and help with the resources we have that the arboretum can provide. And in the end, it's, it's a long term commitment and it's the. And it's also the most rewarding work you've ever done. If you think anything that's worth doing takes time and it's not a clear cut, it's going to be different every single time.
- [32:32]
A
Well, for my listeners who want to find out, maybe connect more with you, hear more about your journey, or maybe learn about the arboretum, where would you send them? Either way, how can they find out more information?
- [32:41]
B
First of all, if there's anyone listening who's anywhere near the Morton Arboretum.
- [32:45]
A
Yeah, I love it in the Chicago area.
- [32:47]
B
I'm just gonna say just come visit. We're 30 minutes downtown Chicago. I'll start there. This place is hard to show anyone in an hour. You need a good half day, so.
- [32:58]
A
That's right. I've been there and I would agree. You're absolutely right.
- [33:01]
B
You gotta come back more than once. But you can Find me on LinkedIn. Always happy to connect, love to meet new people. And also Mortonarb.org, so visit our website and that'll show you not only about the place, but you can learn all about our science and conservation programs, our urban and community forestry work, and all of the tremendous education resources that we have online.
- [33:23]
A
Well, Jill, it's obvious that you have a passion. You're making a big difference in where you are. And thanks for just sharing some of your insights and your own journey with my listener. I think it's been fantastic to hear your story and again, thanks for taking time to be on the show.
- [33:35]
B
Great, thanks. It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
- [33:38]
A
Hey, friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox. DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.