← Nonprofit Leadership Podcast
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- [00:02]
A
This is Dr. Rob Harder with the Nonprofit Leadership podcast Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All these reasons combined led me to start this show and it's my hope that through this series people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are who are successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. Hey everybody, this is Rob Harder and you're listening to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today. So we've had many guests on this show talk about the different generations and including We've talked about Gen Z before, but I don't think I've had a better conversation about not just the background to Gen Z, but but practical ideas and solutions. If you're a leader and you're trying to attract and retain Gen Z, this conversation I have with my guest will give you lots of ideas, very data driven approach to how to best attract Gen Zers to your organization and retain them. My guest today is Tim Elmore. Tim is the founder of Growing Leaders. It's an Atlanta based nonprofit organization that was created to really develop emerging leaders and he's also the author of many books, but his latest book is the Future Begins with Z. This book is all about exploring the mindset and motivations and workplace impact of Generation Z. This is the next generation that is coming into the social impact sphere, of course, in all spheres for that matter, into the workplace, into the tech world, into the government world. But certainly for the social impact leaders that are listening out there, you're trying to figure out how do I both recruit and retain Gen Zers. And so we're going to talk about a lot of different things. He has some great insights and some really interesting stories and he'll talk about first of all what his book is all about and why it's a little different than other books that have been written about Gen Z. He's going to address some of the common myths and challenges that we have to deal with when it comes to Generation Z, as well as the opportunities and what Gen Z brings to your social impact organization. Specifically when it comes to engaging with this next generation of talent, it's a fascinating conversation. He was so enthusiastic and he had so many good ideas and again backed up by data and real experience from what he's done for many years now. You're going to really enjoy hearing from Tim today. It's a great conversation. So again, Tim Elmore, author of the book the Future Begins with Z. Thanks so much for tuning in. Now, onto the show. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.
- [02:51]
B
Welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast with Rob Harder. I'm Mike Lee. I live in Washington, D.C. and I'm a listener just like you. We are all on a leadership journey looking for ways to learn and grow.
- [03:06]
C
Each week.
- [03:06]
B
I look forward to hearing Rob's latest discussion with his guests. I invite you to join us. Thanks for listening. Now here's Rob.
- [03:15]
A
Well, welcome to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. I've got Tim Elmore here in the studio today. Tim, thanks so much for joining us on the show.
- [03:22]
C
Rob, it's an honor to be with you. We're going to have a good conversation.
- [03:26]
A
I know. I'm really excited about this Gen Z, this next generation that is coming into faith communities, coming into nonprofit organizations, social impact organizations, the government positions. I mean, they're just there's so much we want to talk about. A lot of people have questions, but how best can we recruit Gen Z? How best can we motivate and retain Gen Z staff members on our teams? So you've got this book out that I'd like you to obviously pull from, but let's just kind of open up a little bit, maybe quickly for you, your back background, how did you get into this work, first of all, and then we'll dive into the specifics because you've got, you've done a lot of interesting things over your life.
- [04:00]
C
Well, it's a great question. I'll give you the Reader's Digest answer here. So I started in the classroom in the 1979, 1980 school year. So 45 years ago. And I was a part of the emerging generation back then. I immediately made my decision at that point. I want to be a part of always pouring into the next gen. So at that time it was the baby boomers were still graduating school, and then the Gen Xers came through and then the millennials. And now it's Gen Z. And soon it will be Gen Alpha. Those are the younger children. So and each one certainly kids are kids and they're the same. Teenagers are teenagers. But culture is different today than it was 25 years ago and certainly 45 years ago. So I do my best to not only reach and equip the next generation, but to help leaders like we're talking to right now really understand them, how do we attract them to our cause, and how do we build an enterprise that we can leverage what they bring to the table? And it is a lot. It's just very different than Xers and Boomers.
- [05:05]
A
Love that. Well, and let's dive into your book. There have been a lot of books written about Gen Z. Perhaps we'll start with what makes yours different. What. What different angle are you bringing to the table?
- [05:14]
C
Yeah, well, first and foremost, I am assuming a challenger voice. And what I mean by that is I'm not just saying, God, kids today. Kids today. You know, we've been saying that forever, right? So many of the Gen Z books are a little down on, and there is data that says, yeah, their work ethic isn't the same as ours. But I believe that this great challenge we are finding in Gen Z may actually be the greatest solution to future challenges. In other words, if we'll hang with them, they will bring an intuition on where culture is going. They understand tomorrow's client or consumer. They're so savvy with smart technology, they're intuitive about AI. Rob, 42% of companies in America are leveraging Gen zers to use AI for their business. And I'm saying, why not nonprofit work? So now are they different? Yeah. Might they wear shorts and flip flops to work? Yeah. They might show up 10 minutes late? Yeah. And you can train for that. You can train them out of that. But here's the other thing that I think makes the book different that I really believe listeners will go, aha. I think that puts your finger on. I call it the Peter Pan paradox. The Peter Pan paradox. So everybody remembers the story of Peter Pan, right? The Disney movie and the book and the play. So Peter Pan was this amazing, winsome character that could fly through the air over London, sprinkle pixie dust everywhere, and make magical things happen. The other side of the coin, though, was he didn't want to grow up. Remember, he wanted to live in Neverland, where boys don't have to become men. I think there's something magic and tragic going on in culture right now. The age of authority is decreasing, Meaning they're coming in and they know stuff that we don't know. So they don't need a badge or a title or position to have authority. Darn it. You know, at the same time, while the age of authority is dropping, the age of maturity is rising. I have lost count of the number of employers that have said to me, 26 is the new 18, they're socially and emotionally behind. So the soft skills, the interpersonal skills, the people skills might be behind. And most of us would get, yeah, I know a Gen Z or they can't look me in the eye and they're on their phones and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. So here's what I say, the takeaway from the age of authority going down, age of maturity going up. We're going to have to listen more than we ever used to listen and we're going to have to coach more than we ever used to coach. So we got to get psyched up to do those things. So that would be my short answer to that question. Yeah.
- [07:54]
A
Now let's dive in a little bit more of that. Maybe you've already kind of mentioned them a little bit in that last answer, but talk about some of the most common myths that you've run across and that are out there. And when it comes to Gen Z.
- [08:05]
C
Well, isn't it true, Rob, when we see somebody that's different, old or young, black or white, whatever, if we don't understand it, we judge it, we go, ah, they're just not. And you fill in the blank. When I met with these Gen Zers, it was life changing. That sounds so cliche. But I became a man of hope, not despair, meeting with them. So just so your listeners will know, my data that I collected was both quantitative and qualitative. So I surveyed over 2000 individuals from Gen Z and then I did focus groups from California to Georgia. And as I met with these Gen Zers, I said, here's what bosses are saying about your generation. What do you think, Rob? I'll never forget some of those issues. Let me just share a couple of them with you real quick. I said to some of the 20 somethings in LA, I said, I keep hearing that your generation doesn't really want to work. 5 o' clock rolls around and you're out of there. You leave as soon as you can. You don't really want to work. You don't really, you don't even finish the task you're working on. Well, one young lady, one young lady looked at me and said, Dr. Tim, can I tell you why I leave right at five? I said, sure. And she said, I leave right at 5 because I have to zip over to another job. I don't make enough money at this one to pay the bills here in la. And she said, after that second job, I rush over to take care of my mom who has stage four cancer. Suddenly I realize she may have A better ethic, work ethic than her boss does, but it doesn't look like that. So we need to make sure that we're not presuming or assuming we're not stereotyping. Right? We think that Gen Z is all fragile snowflakes or whatever. And there are some, but there were some in my generation too. So here's another, real quick, here's another myth that I hear. I hear very often that they are pushing so hard for work life balance because they don't really want to put in the hours or make the sacrifices or whatever. But Rob, I met so many that say, I want to give my life for a cause, nonprofit work. It's so in line with their heartbeat. They have a heart for the, for social justice and for the marginalized. But when I brought up this whole work life balance thing, here's what they said. They said, well, when I look at my parents and grandparents generation that were such workaholics and they ruined the family, they ruined the holiday, you know, and we did see some of that, you know, the baby boomers were such workaholics. So Gen Z would look at the boomers and go, oh God, you guys live to work. I work to live. But it's an, it's a reaction if you will. But if we can provide healthy environments, they will love to make sacrifices for the cause. That's what they're looking for. So I'll stop there. But we need to make sure we're not judging too quickly on these young people.
- [11:07]
A
And I think I like those two examples, particularly one young lady that what a powerful story. And going back to what you said earlier about listening and mentoring more, I think that's a really already some good advice for my listeners. Okay, so specifically now let's get really practical for hiring managers, those who are listening that are executive directors, program directors perhaps and they're bringing on Gen Z and they're hiring them. There's often, there's this constant struggle, if you will, with recruiting them, I think number one, and then retaining them. Talk a little bit about why maybe that's the case. Are there some issues that we need to know better for those who are trying to attract Gen zers to our organization, specifically in the social impact sphere that we just need to get better at.
- [11:48]
C
Yeah, few quick ideas. Number one, I want to encourage listeners to look at your websites and look at all your public facing presence, your documents, your websites etc, and make sure they're updated. I think Gen Z will go to the site and quickly realize you Guys don't pay. Nobody's watching the store here. You know, this looks like 1999. So that would be one. So true. Yeah. Yeah. Especially nonprofits, because we're about the cause, not about the production or whatever. Here's another one. Make sure that their first day is unforgettable. So what I found as I dug up the research is many gen zers. Actually, the majority of gen zers, Rob, will make up their mind whether they're going to stay on the job on day one. Really? Okay. It's not fair, but they will. So I would say make sure that you're leaning in. Assign them somebody to be the Sherpa guide their first week on the job where they're just taking them to lunch and making sure they feel loved and cared for. I know that sounds so syrupy, man, that would make a difference. That's big. Okay. Yeah. And then here's another quick thought. I would say that nonprofits especially need to work on making this job the best first job they could ever have. Now let me explain. Very often employers get frustrated because they go, man, I hire a Gen Z and they're gone in a year, year and a half. That's all they're saying. They're, you know, the corporate ladder has become the corporate lily pad. You know, they're hopping around.
- [13:20]
A
That's a great analogy.
- [13:21]
C
Right? I know. It's so true. So here's what, here's what. These are all in the book. One of the companies I really admire is Orange Leaf frozen yogurt. They were hiring a bunch of 17 year olds, 21 year olds, you know, gen zers. And they were mad because they were hiring them. And then 8 months, 12 months, they're leaving. They decided to switch around the psychology of how they approached hiring. And they say in the job interview, after they make sure they understand the job, they go. The hiring manager says, now what would you really like to learn while you're with us? We want to make this a launching pad for the rest of your career. We know you may not be with us for a long time, so see how that's reverse psychology? We want you to stay, but if you didn't, we want you to look back and go, perfect first job. Well, that gen zer is dumbfounded because you're actually focusing on them and their growth, not just the mission, but they might go. The gen zer might go, wow, I want to learn marketing. Oh, you want to learn marketing. You need to be Nancy. Nancy's our marketing chief. She'll teach you Everything she knows, she's awesome. Or I want to learn bookkeeping. Oh, you need to meet Hall Housel guy. He'll teach you marketing. What they started finding was the kids were staying longer and longer and longer because they were getting mentored. So it wasn't just a transactional thing. We got a cheap worker here. It was more a transformational thing. So don't approach your leadership listeners like a manager. Approach it like a mentor. That's the key, I think.
- [14:57]
A
Wow. So in really shifting from a transaction of hiring somebody to a relationship and really connecting them with a mentoring relationship, it sounds like that's what you've seen.
- [15:06]
C
Yeah, that's exactly right. In fact, I would say real quick, if I can add, Gen Z sees authority differently than almost all the other generations. If I can.
- [15:15]
A
Okay, yeah, talk about that. This is important.
- [15:17]
C
Yeah. This is so key to, for us to at least understand them. I mean, listeners, think about it, if you and I flew to a completely different country, we would expect to meet people there that are different. Right. They speak a different language, they have different customs, they have different values. Bingo. If you're talking to a Gen Z, it's going to feel like a cross culture. Different culture. That's right. Language, different values. Yep. So put in the work. Okay, so here's what I would say. If you could think of two columns in your brain right now, older generations, younger generations and their view of authority. Older generations would say, well, your position gives you the right to influence. Right. If you're the president, if you're the executive vp, you get to. They would say your connection gives you the right to influence me. So yeah, you got a title, Bob. But would you connect with me? Oh my gosh, it's huge. It's currency. We would say the leader is the gatekeeper. Now, we don't use that language, but the gatekeeper of the budget and the people and the, you know, the power and so forth, they would say, forget that gatekeeper. Be a guide, not a gatekeeper. Would you be a Sherpa guide leading us up the mountain and pulling us up with you as you climb? I tell you, if we can lead in this way, it's more relationship based than production based. In fact, results are what we all want. But if you can put relationships first, I think you'll get to your results a little bit better.
- [16:43]
A
What a great example. I love hearing that and I like that idea of relationships first. And it's not about your position or title. It's about connection. That is powerful. And I've seen It played out, you know, in the organizations I've led. That is very true. And so again, great insights. Okay, you already talked about this job hopping skill that Gen Zers have and a lot of it is a reputation, perhaps more than just, you know, actual reality. I loved your example of how you start with this is a relationship and this is something where you can grow in this job. Is there anything else along those lines where maybe that example you mentioned about the Orange Leaf company. So they do that. The percentage sounds like it's going higher in terms of those Gen Zers are staying around longer, but there's still probably still several that are moving in and out. How have they kind of compensated, for lack of a better term for that transition? In other words, how do they kind of prepare themselves for, okay, maybe I don't even know what the number is. 50%, 60% are going to leave. But for those 40 or 50%, the stay, we're going to really maximize the impact of them. How do they balance both of those realities?
- [17:46]
C
Well, it's tough. I, I'm not going to pretend like it's an easy thing. I think for me, I had to make this transition in my own brain because I'm an old guy here. I had to realize that the average Gen Z is going to stay two years, three months, something like that. So just psyching myself up for the fact that society is very mobile today helped me with my attitude. Okay, number two, I had to begin to practice reverse mentoring. Reverse mentoring. So that's where an older and a younger get together. And step one is swap stories. You always will find something in common when you swap stories. But then think about this now it's not just older pouring into the younger, that's normal. But reverse mentoring is once you've done that, established leaders, you take that mentor hat off and you put a mentee hat on and you invite that 25 year old say, hey, mentor me now in your superpowers. How could we monetize that latest app you just got for our cause or you know, that sort of thing, they're bringing in insights that we do not have. And maybe it's AI, maybe have a conversation on AI. But I'm telling you, when I have practiced reverse mentoring with Andrew, who's 30 years younger than me, Cam, who's 40 years younger than me, can you imagine the dignity that everybody gains because we're both being poured into and are pouring into that zen zier wants to stick around minimally. He's going, man, I'm helping my Boss here, you know, dinosaur. Yeah, yeah. So, so, quick story.
- [19:21]
A
Love that.
- [19:22]
C
Colin Webb is one of my early stories in the book. I've known Colin since he was in high school. He graduated high school and got an invitation to go to mit. So he goes to mit. Smart kid. Engineer, graduates in four years. You can imagine, Rob, he got a number of job offers. Well, Colin decides to move to Detroit, Michigan to work for one of the big three, General Motors. So he goes to General Motors and they put him in the smart car division, which was a smart move, I might add. Well, when Colin shows up, he's smart enough, but as a young professional, he looks around at this quite traditional setting, if I can say that without insulting anybody, and goes, oh, my gosh, this is antiquated. So he goes, man, they need to do professional development better here. They need to do that system better, that process better. And again, he's smart. So he starts writing down some ideas on how they can be better. But when he takes the ideas to his supervisor, the supervisor basically says, hey, we didn't hire you to bring some new ideas. Keep your head down, keep your nose to the grindstone, just do your work. Well, Colin said, yes, sir, because he's very respectful. But Colin wasn't done yet. So get this, Rob, you're going to love this. Colin goes back to his computer, emails the CEO of General Motors. No way.
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A
Are you serious?
- [20:47]
C
This is so Gen Z. Yeah, that.
- [20:49]
A
Is so you just skip every authority and just go right to the CEO.
- [20:53]
C
That's right. This is where the power is.
- [20:55]
A
Wow.
- [20:56]
C
So, Mary Barra, you know, so. Dear Mary, it's Colin. You've never met me, but I'm new here. I've got these ideas. Mary replies back, oh, my gosh, that's cool. Colin, these are really good ideas. Let me take them to my executive team and we'll see how they like them. Will the executive team like them? So we get buy in from the power brokers. But Rob, as those ideas make their way down the organizational chart, down to the middle manager and the supervisor, again, they die on the vine. Because those leaders may have felt threatened. They may have felt like, who are you to tell me you're 22, but Colin was told you got to be around here eight years before you get to lead anything. Well, Rob, you might have well have told him to leave right then and there. He stays a year, he leaves. Unfortunately, since then, he started three companies.
- [21:49]
A
Oh, no way.
- [21:50]
C
He just sold one of them. So he's doing better than you and I are financially, right?
- [21:54]
A
Now sounds like it. Wow, impressive.
- [21:56]
C
He just started Avatar Robotics where you can pick up an item in Florida and something moves in Sacramento. I don't even know how he does it, but I'm telling you, that's insight that GM could have used. And they lost it unnecessarily. So sometimes I think we're losing Gen Zers because we just stick to our guns. This is how we do it. This is. And. And maybe we need to be open. Keep the mission, marry the mission, but date your methods. Maybe the methods are going to come from those Gen Zers who in their 20s can see the future better than we can.
- [22:31]
A
Well, it's such an interesting story because I wanted to talk about feedback. And so it's kind of like these two pieces here. On the one hand, being open to new ideas, not being threatened. I think that's a key thing you just mentioned. At the same time, you know, Gen Zers are new and they're growing and they're learning about their job and what a work environment's like. How do you give feedback in a way that's well received and it really is not about you trying to power up on somebody, but really actually trying to help this person grow. How do you make that balance of being open and having the feedback and being a mentee, as you mentioned earlier, but also at the same time giving feedback and saying, you know what? This is an area you can improve on?
- [23:06]
C
That's a brilliant question. It really is. And by the way, Gen Z does have the reputation across the country for being fragile snowflakes. So give them feedback and they feel like they're being attacked. Cancel culture. You can't do this to me. I'm. This is an unsafe, psychologically placed, you know, that sort of thing. So that does happen. And this is the other side of the coin now to everything I've just said. So in the book. The subtitle of the book is Nine Strategies to Lead Generation Z. As they disrupt the workplace, they are going to disrupt the workplace. They're the future. So this is one of the nine. How do we do this feedback thing in a redemptive way? So I. I share handles in every chapter. My handle on this one is an acronym. It's called a leg. A L, E, G. A leg. You know how for years and years we said this is the leg you got to stand on? You know, like, this is what you got to do if you're going to make it. So I have four words that I follow every time I have to have a very Difficult, tough feedback. Meeting the letter A reminds me I need to start with asking, not telling them what they did wrong, asking. And maybe the question is help me understand. You know, I don't understand why you just did that, but see what, what a nice dignity giving way to start a very hard conversation. So you're saying, could you help me understand why you made that decision? I would not have made that decision. But when we ask, they feel valued. Think about when somebody in authority asks you, you feel. Oh, really, you want my my opinion? So ask them if it valued the letter L. Listen, I think it does very little good to do any asking for, not willing to do the listening. So when we listen, they feel heard. And Rob, the number one request I got from my research from Gen Z is when I come to a new job, I want to have a voice from day one, I want to be heard. Okay? So we would tell our gen zers, everybody has a voice. Not everybody has a vote, right? The board of directors has the vote, the leaders have the vote. But you're going to get to be heard. But when we listen, they feel heard. Okay. By the way, David Augsberger, a brilliant therapist and counselor and psychologist made a statement that explains why listening is so powerful. He says being heard is so close to being loved that for the average person it's indistinguishable.
- [25:33]
A
Oh, that's powerful. I like that.
- [25:35]
C
Powerful.
- [25:35]
A
That's really good.
- [25:36]
C
So think about your kids, listeners just listening to your kids and they feel loved when dad or mom is listening. Okay? So ask, they feel valued. Listen, they feel heard. E is empathize. When I empathize, they feel understood. So I need to find ways to relay back. I get it. Or oh, I bet that made you feel awful when that happened. Or I had no idea that happened. But we're communicating in our non verbal and verbal communication. Ah, I'm understanding you. So think about what you just done in the last 10 to 15 minutes of your talking to this gen zer. Ask, they feel valued. Listen, they feel heard. Empathize, they feel understood. Now I've earned my right to practice the letter G which is to guide them. And that's what I wanted to do from the very beginning. Right?
- [26:22]
A
So you get to know.
- [26:24]
C
Yes, you do. But you got to spend that 10, 15 minutes and we don't have that time. But we think that's true. I think we don't have time not to. Because when we earn our right to guide them through a bridge we built, not a badge we wear, we've Won them. And they probably do stay because we got that connection again. So it's making the investment for the payoff later. Got it.
- [26:48]
A
So really earning their trust enough to then get to the guidance part is the key to providing that feedback?
- [26:54]
C
It is. Trust is earned. This is a very cynical generation, not unlike the Gen Xers 20, 30, 40 years ago. But I'm telling you. Yeah. When I look around me, can I just get real with you for a minute? I look around at corporate America, government. There's reason to be cynical in some ways. Now, you and I are men of hope. But I don't blame him for being a little skeptical.
- [27:21]
A
Right.
- [27:22]
C
Okay. There's leaders who have fallen morally and financially and so forth. So what I want to do is start where they are and say, listen, I'm going to earn your right and I'm going to start with belief and respect. Just like I would expect respect right back from you, Josh. But I think that's, I think you're spot on. We got to earn it.
- [27:42]
A
We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofit's donations? Well, look no further than Donorbox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With Donorbox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is www.donorbox.org. All right, now another topic that really has become a bigger issue, I think particularly even post Covid, is this whole issue of mental health. Mental health continues to pop up as one of the key issues I think across the board. Right. Our entire culture is dealing with mental health challenges and struggles with. But certainly Gen Z, I feel like, has probably maybe a higher percentage and maybe just because we're recognizing it more and they're. And they're more open, there's less stigma around it. So talk about that. How do we as leaders that are not part of Gen Z really embrace this idea of understanding there are mental health challenges that we all face? How do we have that empathy and that compassion, but at the same time keep leading and leading that organization that you're leading and creating an environment where it's not just about, hey, let's slow everything down or stop things. Right? But let's be, yeah, compassionate, empathetic. How do we find that balance there too? Because that's A big deal, too. I know that a lot of my fellow leaders are dealing with and struggling through.
- [29:17]
C
No, you're exactly right. So, yeah, you're right. We're not just here to fellowship with each other and sing Kumbaya. We're here to get a mission done. So let me first start with what not to do. I did not handle this well when mental health first became an issue on the table. I'm an older generation, and I thought, what are you. You have nothing to be anxious about. You got. Now, if you're anxious now, what do you get? A mortgage payment, son. You know, that sort of thing. So that was not the right way to handle it. No.
- [29:46]
A
So.
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C
So if I may, let me build in you listeners a little bit deeper empathy for just a minute. Mental health is a huge, huge thing. As they begin their career, their mantra right now is, I'm coping and hoping. So the world is anxious and uncertain. Very anxious and uncertain. Dr. Robert Leahy, an MD, said, the average teenager today has the same level and anxiety as a psych patient did back in the 1950s. Let me say that again. The average teenager today in America has the same anxiety levels that a psychiatric patient did back in the night. They'd be in a ward, a mental ward.
- [30:28]
A
No. Why is that?
- [30:29]
C
Well, it's a. 10,000 notifications coming every day on their social media posts and. And everything else flew the Oval. It's not always bad news, but it's too much news. Way too. We are informed way more. Yeah. Our brains were not hardwired to take in all those messages every day. On top of that, they have fomo, fear of missing out, because they do see how their best friend just had the best vacation ever in Cancun, you know, but they also have fomu. I'm hearing this from young people. Fomu. Fear of messing up. So there's in disproportionate fear of failure and messing up. If I mess up, it'll be on my transcript and it'll be posted on TikTok. What's going to. You know, so there's all kinds of anxiety going around that's unnecessary, but it's very real. So I think we need to start by saying, okay, we understand mental health issues are real. I would say if you're a boss of a nonprofit or a for profit, for that matter, make sure that you're taking steps and they know about it when they're hired. Like, they need to know you're not just reacting, oh, gosh, Josh has trouble. What do we do for Josh, make sure you got something set up. So offer as much flexibility as you can. So if they can work from home and still get the job done, that screams I trust you and I want to take care of you. Okay, but that's not always possible. I understand. So but just if you're able to do that. Secondly, talk to them about the margin in their day. Sometimes anxiety comes, we don't have enough margin. They're just, you know, back to back to back to back to back things, activities. And if I don't have an activity, I'm scrolling through social media. It's ridiculous. I heard a great statement. When our phones had leashes, we were free. Now our phones are free and we have leashes. Isn't that true?
- [32:21]
A
So I'm telling you, that's a great quote. Absolutely.
- [32:24]
C
Yeah. So anyway, make sure you encourage them to put March in their day. Maybe they do four projects, not five, but they take a breather, they take a break and that leads to number two, make sure you keep them moving if possible. So at our nonprofit Middle of the day, actually two times a day, we allow our team members, particularly our young ones, to get up and walk around the building three times and just chit chat. But they're moving. When you walk or run, endorphins are flowing. It fights anxiety. It's just a science. It's just a science. So I think sometimes our anxiety comes from the fact that we're so sedentary that, that we're not allowing those God given chemicals to do their work and make us hopeful and happy again. Yeah, it's kind of weird, but that's fascinating generation. Yeah.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah.
- [33:13]
C
Let me do one more.
- [33:14]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [33:15]
C
Management. I think sometimes we need to teach Gen Z to manage their mental health. And by the way, that might mean they learn how to management without medication. They learn how to be mindful and, and you know, just collect their thoughts and breathe and so forth. But sometimes it might mean they go to the doctor or a counselor and they get a prescription to get their chemicals balanced. I don't think we should shame anybody for that. Both of my kids grew up in a middle class home, had food, clothes, toys. But both of them struggled with anxiety and depression a little bit and it wasn't because we had a horrible home. So I'm going to stop there, Rob, but I feel like we need to make sure we take it seriously because it is an issue.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, no, I like those, all three of those. And I think that last piece I think particularly I've noticed The last few years, I feel like the stigma is being removed more and more. And I would even say with our generation, the older generations, I should say, right, that it's okay to talk about your struggles with anxiety, depression, whatever you're dealing with, and to destigmatize this idea that maybe sometimes you need medication. Just like if you have diabetes, you're going to have to get some medication for that. It's the same way our bodies somehow are not functioning correctly. And so you need some help. And, and that's okay. That doesn't mean you're, you failed or you're damaged goods. So I think that's very powerful. Well, and I, on the positive side, you've mentioned this kind of throughout our talk today, but maybe just to reemphasize as we kind of wrap this up a bit, is what are those great benefits that Generation Z is bringing to your company, bringing to your organization? Because I think at the end of the day, if someone's listening, they're like, wow, I've had a lot, I've extended, you know, a lot of jobs. And they just come and go. Like you were saying, they're job hoppers. They've not had that good experience like Orange Leaf. What are some of those benefits where you can tell people, hey, it's worth it, though? Not only is it, of course, the next generation, but I think more than that, what is going to benefit their bottom line, if you will, if they continue to invest in this next generation?
- [35:07]
C
Yeah, let me give a handful of ideas real quick. Number one, I think one of the big benefits is I really do think they have visibility on the future better than I do. They don't know it because they just are intuitive at 21 or 25 or whatever. But they see the landscape, they understand culture, and I understand the past really well because I have a lot of past in my life, but they have a lot of future in their future. So part of me is maybe include them in the leadership meetings, even if nothing else, just to listen in and then maybe share, what are your thoughts? I had an intern named Carrie who was a little bit offended that we asked her to get the coffee for the meeting. And she told me later, she said, tim, I, I, I was wondering, did you ask me to do it because I'm a girl and the boys wouldn't do it? Or, you know, did you not realize I had a college degree from Kansas State University or whatever? But she told me this, Rob, it was so good. She said, I'm so glad I swallowed My pride. And I got the coffee because she said, getting the coffee got me in the room with the executives. Next thing I know, I'm shaking hands and meeting the senior leaders. Next thing I know, they're asking me questions, I'm sitting down at the table, we're having dialogue. She said, that was the smartest move, to be humble and get that coffee because soon I had a voice with these people I suddenly had a relationship with. So that would be one great example. Yeah. Number two, you're going to laugh, listeners, when I say this, but Generation Z is going to make you a better leader. And the reason why is they're not going to put up with some of the BS that some older generations put up with. You know what we all. That's just Bob, he does that. He leads that way. That's why Bob, they're going to go, I don't care if I don't like Bob, I'm out of here. So I have a. I have a friend named Teresa who is a wonderful woman of faith, and she shared this line with me. And I said, teresa, I need to steal that line from you. She said, tim, I learned a little while ago that Generation Z is the sandpaper on my leadership. I did not know I needed. Isn't that awesome?
- [37:17]
A
Oh, that's good. That's humble of her to admit that.
- [37:21]
C
Yes, yes. But I tell you what, they are going to make us better leaders. It won't be fun. And by the way, are they going to need to change, too? Absolutely. The answer is almost always in the middle. I want you to hear that, listeners. The answer is almost in the middle. They represent the future. We represent what has worked so far. Meet in the middle. Change a little bit. Ask them to change a little bit. Maybe stop wearing flip flops to the board meetings or whatever. You know, that could happen a little bit. Yeah, that's right. But I think that's a big one. Another One, though, is 72% of high school students in America want to be an entrepreneur.
- [37:57]
A
Powerful.
- [37:58]
C
Yeah. Which means they want to start something rather than join something. So you might keep them if you create an internal gig economy, an internal entrepreneurial zone. So what if you selected a problem or two that you really need to solve at your nonprofit and you set aside a team and maybe there's some gen zers on that team, and they are this entrepreneurial zone and you have them go after solving that problem. They're still doing a task, but maybe twice a month they're meeting on this issue and you set aside budget for the untold results of their labor together and they bring about change. So it feels like a startup, but you're really established and you keep them because of that. I try to lace the book with lots of ideas like that, but I think Gen Z will pay off in the long run if we can stick it out because they are going to represent visibility on what's ahead in our clients, our donors, our customers in the future.
- [38:56]
A
Well, again, Tim, I love your energy and your enthusiasm and your hope because you've worked so much with this generation. You've had real life experiences and you've seen the benefit of investing in them and really hanging in there and seeing through some of those myths and actually countering them, actually. So I love that. So for my listeners, again, who want to find about the book, maybe purchase the book, find out a little bit more about you, where would you send them? How best can they learn a bit more about you and the book?
- [39:20]
C
Yeah, sure. Thank you for asking, Rob. So my website has the book and a bunch of other free stuff, but it's simply my name, Tim elmore.com timilmore.com but you can get the book at Amazon or the Porch Light Books is the best place to get it. Really cheap in bulk or quantity discounts. They're even better than Amazon. So Porch Light Books would be.
- [39:41]
A
Oh, good to know that I've not heard of Porch.
- [39:43]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we got video courses available, but that would be great. But Rob, if you don't mind, I would love to share a story as we close. Would that.
- [39:52]
A
Absolutely, yeah. No, it's been great. Sure.
- [39:54]
C
Well, this story I put in the book and because I just loved it so much and it just keeps me fired up every day. So my incentive for you all listeners to really invest in the next generation was a move that was made back when my generation was the next generation. So way back in the 1960s, the United States pulled off something that some people thought was impossible. We, that is NASA, put a man on the moon. July of 1969, Neil Armstrong walked out on the moon and said, one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Well, you may not know the story behind the story. The reason NASA was able to pull that off is that our president at the time, JFK in the early 60s, had twice made a speech. And in those speeches he said, by the end of the decade, we're going to put a man on the moon. So he, he cast vision. Well when he made that statement, NASA did not even have the technology to pull off such a thing. So they had to scramble to bring in the technology. Well, when they brought it in, the tech, their older executives, who were 52 or 48 or whatever, they didn't know how to, they didn't know how to do it. You know, who knew how to handle it? The interns. This is a true story. So they had some 20 somethings, you know, either in college or a few years out of college from mit, Purdue, Georgia Tech, you know, Texas Tech. And they said, hey, can you help with this? And slowly but surely throughout the 1960s, more and more leadership was turned over to those young. So get this, here's the data. The average age of the control center operators. 27 years old.
- [41:39]
A
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [41:40]
C
I would have sworn it was 27 years. Yeah. In fact, the one that said go not know to actually pull the trigger and put that capsule down on the moon. Jack Garman, 23 years old, one year out of college. NASA trusted a 23 year old to do the toughest thing we had ever done. So I'm getting a little choked up here, but I'm thinking, what if we could do that again? What if we look at these very different young people and say, I don't even get them, but we need to put a man on the moon. We have a moonshot, we got to take it.
- [42:14]
A
Our number shot.
- [42:15]
C
There you go. And maybe, maybe we take our role as sim sups now. By the way, the older generation didn't leave NASA. They stuck around those people that were 45 to 55. They were SIM suits, simulators, supervisors who coached and mentored those 20 somethings and what they had already learned at NASA. But then the NASA kids, if I can put it that way, had the guts and the risk tolerance to do it. So let's do our moonshot and let's put this next generation to work. Maybe we can put a man on the moon again.
- [42:48]
A
Yeah, Love that story. Thank you for getting that background. I had never heard that before. If I don't think that's ever been put into a movie yet. But it needs to be. But that's it does. It totally does. I mean, you look at now, you know, Elon Musk is pushing the edge, right. With all the getting more rockets up in the air and pushing NASA now right in a different direction. So it's that next generation, you know, bringing new technology and so fascinating stories. It's such a fun conversation. Tim, thanks for what you're doing. Just to bring to light a lot of these things that I think a lot of my listeners need to know and it'll be so beneficial to them. And so again, all of you who are listening, I want to make sure I'll have a link for Tim's book and then more information about Tim's website because this is really. You said it well, Tim, you have a moonshot opportunity. Whether you're an executive director, you're a director of development, a board member, you have an opportunity with your authority and your leadership position to really invite this next generation in and for the betterment of your mission and your organization, I encourage you to really take a risk and listen a little bit more to what Tim has learned over the many years of his working with so many generations. But right now, Gen Z. So again, Tim, thanks for sharing your insights. Thanks for your time and appreciate your enthusiasm.
- [43:52]
C
My pleasure. Thanks Rob are you bet.
- [43:54]
A
Well everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. We will see you next week. Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcast can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google Podcasts, and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders. Just like you can also join the nonprofit leadership podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website, nonprofitleadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.