Why aiming for a stress-free childhood is not ideal

Summary

Nonprofit Leadership Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Why Aiming for a Stress-Free Childhood Is Not Ideal
Host: Rob Harter
Guest: Dr. Depechnov Saria
Release Date: November 3, 2024

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this insightful episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast, host Dr. Rob Harder engages in a meaningful conversation with Dr. Depechnov Saria, a dedicated leader focused on addressing childhood poverty in the United States. Dr. Saria introduces his initiative, the Reach Out and Read Podcast, which seeks to shed light on the complexities of childhood poverty and explore effective strategies to support affected families.

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2. Dr. Depechnov Saria’s Background and the Reach Out and Read Podcast

[03:30] Dr. Rob Harder: "So my guest today, Dr. Depechnov Saria, he is a wonderful leader that's doing some great work, particularly when it comes to the issue of children living in poverty..."

[03:40] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria provides a comprehensive overview of his diverse professional background, holding master's degrees in Public Health and Library Science, and having served as a physician assistant and pediatrician. His multifaceted experience underpins his current work with Reach Out and Read, a program dedicated to early childhood literacy and relational health.

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3. The Scope of Childhood Poverty in the US

[05:15] Dr. Rob Harder: "For my listeners, let's review a few facts just to put this issue into perspective. First, what percentage of children under the age of 18 in the US are living in poverty according to the US Census Bureau? And what are some of the long-term impacts of childhood poverty on health and well-being?"

[05:15] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria highlights that approximately 16% of children under 18 in the US live in poverty, a figure notably higher than the overall poverty rate. He emphasizes the resurgence of childhood poverty rates following the initial drop three years prior, attributing this reversal to the discontinuation of effective anti-poverty measures post-pandemic.

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4. Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and Their Impact

[06:36] Dr. Rob Harder: "How much more likely are children in poverty to experience adverse childhood experiences, or ACEs for short, compared to their peers from what you've seen? And why is this so important to address?"

[06:50] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria explains that children in poverty are significantly more likely to experience ACEs, which include various forms of trauma and chronic stress. He underscores the long-term health consequences of ACEs, such as increased risks of heart disease and other chronic conditions, and discusses the biological mechanisms that link early adversity to later health outcomes.

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5. Moving Beyond a Stress-Free Childhood: Embracing 'Rupture and Repair'

[10:45] Dr. Rob Harder: "That's really fascinating. So essentially you were saying that aiming for a stress-free childhood is not ideal or the goal, but rather this idea of rupture and learning how to repair and deal with that stress, that really is what we should aim for. Now, why hasn't this been emphasized more in your opinion?"

[11:02] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria argues that striving for a completely stress-free childhood is unrealistic and unnecessary. Instead, he advocates for the concept of rupture and repair, where children experience manageable stressors that help build resilience and coping mechanisms. He notes that historical perspectives on childhood survival have evolved, and modern society benefits from recognizing that controlled stress can foster growth and resilience in children.

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6. Relational Health: The Keystone of Overcoming Adversity

[14:25] Dr. Rob Harder: "With all that you're working on, what is giving you hope these days?"

[14:25] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria introduces the concept of relational health, which focuses on the quality of relationships between children and their caregivers. He explains that strong, positive interactions can act as a buffer against adversity, ensuring that children feel loved and supported even in challenging circumstances. This relational approach is crucial for mitigating the effects of poverty and ACEs.

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7. The Reach Out and Read Podcast Initiative

[17:09] Dr. Rob Harder: "Okay, now let's talk a bit more about your podcast Reach Out and Read initiative. First of all, who are some of the guests that you've had on the show, and what are your main goals with this podcast?"

[17:18] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria delves into the origins and objectives of the Reach Out and Read Podcast, which has evolved over five seasons and includes a diverse range of guests, from children's book authors to policymakers and healthcare practitioners. The podcast aims to raise awareness about childhood poverty, share compelling stories, and provide practical solutions for supporting families. Dr. Saria emphasizes the importance of storytelling in driving societal change and educating listeners about effective early literacy and relational health strategies.

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8. Goals and Future Vision for Reach Out and Read

[23:02] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Looking ahead, Dr. Saria outlines Reach Out and Read’s strategic goal to reach 50% of all children under five in the US by 2030. He envisions an ecosystem of support that integrates scalable programs like Reach Out and Read with more intensive interventions, creating a comprehensive network to support children's development and family well-being. This vision aligns with the social ecological model, emphasizing the interplay between individual, community, and societal factors in addressing poverty.

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9. Key Takeaways and Resources

[22:52] Dr. Rob Harder: "Now, as people are listening to your podcast or listening to this podcast and they're tuning in to all the work that you're doing, what do you want those who are listening to take away from your work?"

[23:02] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria encourages listeners to recognize that childhood poverty and its associated challenges are solvable. He stresses the importance of implementing evidence-based solutions and fostering societal willingness to invest in these initiatives. By engaging with programs like Reach Out and Read, communities can contribute to breaking the cycle of poverty and enhancing relational health among families.

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10. Connecting with Reach Out and Read

[26:18] Dr. Rob Harder: "How can my listeners who really wanted to find out a little bit more about you and find out more about your work, where would you send them?"

[26:25] Dr. Depechnov Saria:
Dr. Saria directs interested listeners to the Reach Out and Read website (reachoutandread.org) for comprehensive resources, including access to the podcast episodes and an extensive early literacy research library. He highlights the availability of numerous episodes that offer valuable insights and practical knowledge for those looking to support children's development and family well-being.

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Conclusion

This episode of the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast provides a profound exploration of the nuanced approach needed to support children in poverty. By shifting the focus from striving for a stress-free childhood to fostering resilience through manageable stressors and strong relational health, Dr. Saria offers a transformative perspective. The Reach Out and Read Podcast emerges as a vital tool in advocating for and implementing effective strategies to enhance early childhood literacy and relational well-being, ultimately contributing to a better future for children and their families.

For more information and to engage with the resources discussed, visit reachoutandread.org and subscribe to both the Reach Out and Read Podcast and the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast on platforms like iTunes, Spotify, and YouTube.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Depechnov Saria [05:15]: "Children are more likely to live in families that are living in poverty than adults or seniors. And that's not to discount poverty for anyone, but to say like, yikes, children in the US—that's really significant."

• Dr. Depechnov Saria [06:50]: "Adversity in childhood... does not stay in childhood. There are very measurable effects that this has on human health and well-being over the lifespan."

• Dr. Depechnov Saria [10:45]: "Stressful circumstances are how we build new skills and coping mechanisms."

• Dr. Depechnov Saria [14:25]: "Relational health... is the science of looking and thinking about the health of relationships."

• Dr. Depechnov Saria [23:02]: "Recognizing that when families, children, and their families face challenges, these are actually solvable problems and that it's not inevitable that these things are just going to happen."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Dr. Rob Harder]

This is Dr. Rob Harder with the nonprofit leadership podcast, Making youg World Better. What does it take to be an effective nonprofit leader today? What are the biggest challenges? What are the biggest obstacles? How should nonprofits fundraise in an economy that is constantly changing? All of these reasons combined led me to start this show, and it's my hope that through this series, people can learn not only what it takes to be an effective nonprofit organization, but to hear from effective leaders who are successful successfully making a positive impact in their communities. We hope you enjoy the show as together we hear how they are making their world better. This podcast is sponsored by DonorBox, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business. Welcome everybody, to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. So glad you're here. Thanks for tuning in today. So my guest today, Dr. Depechnov Saria. He is a wonderful leader that's doing some great work, particularly when it comes to the issue of children living in poverty right here in the US he's gonna talk a bit about his work there, and his specific initiative that he's a part of called Reach out and Read has actually turned into a podcast, which he is the host of, which we're gonna explore a little bit more and hear more about what his goals are for this podcast initiative. But first, I wanted to pass on to you. Many of you know that I provide leadership and life coaching, and it's been so much fun working with clients who are leaders just like you, looking to grow personally and professionally. What you may is that I also provide consulting services. In fact, currently I'm working for an organization to help them create a clear strategy and communication plan to raise $3.5 million to expand their organization. So perhaps you're an executive director and you sense your organization has hit a lid on growth and you need a strategy as to how you can scale your nonprofit. Or perhaps the culture you set out to create is not the culture you have currently and it's impacting your staff retention. Or maybe you're facing a major resource challenge and you don't know what to do. Well, that's where I can help. I come along leaders and organizations to help create strategies to grow their organizations and maximize their impact. So if your nonprofit needs help with fundraising, with strategy or operational effectiveness, reach out today. You can just simply email [e-mail] you can actually call me too. My number is 435-776-5173. Again, 435776, 5173. You can also go to my website, robharder.com to find out more. Okay, now onto today's specific podcast. As I mentioned, I've got Dr. Depechnesarya and he's got this really interesting initiative he's been a part of and he's gonna talk a bit more about what they're doing. He's gonna give a little bit of background on the issues of children living in poverty right here in the US As I mentioned earlier, and the impact it's having on these children and their families. And he'll talk also about the solutions they're coming up with, about what they're trying to do to accomplish and help families break out of the cycle them with the support that they need along the way. He started this podcast called the Reach out at Read Podcast initiative. And so he's going to talk a bit about the guests he's having on the show and how that's raising more awareness about this really, really critical issue. So as always, love having you a part of this show and thanks for joining. Now on to today's show. Well, great to have you on the show today, Doctor. Thanks for taking time to join us.

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

You are very welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

You bet. Okay, so let's start out by giving my audience a quick overview of your background and a summary of your Reach out and Read podcast series.

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

Sure. So my background, I'm someone who took the scenic route through his education. I have a master's in public health. I also have a master's in library science. And I was a physician assistant before and then went to med school and am a pediatrician. So all of those things play into my life in some way, shape or form now.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Well, it's always fun to have a fellow podcaster on the show. So could you talk just a bit about the Reach and Read podcast series specifically?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

Yeah. So the Reach out and Read podcast is the podcast of the organization Reach out and read, which is 35 years old. The podcast is not 35 years old. Obviously we're in our fifth season now and we get the opportunity on that podcast to talk about honestly, anything and everything having to do with children and families, children's books and illustrations, policy, parenting, you name it. So this fall in our fifth season, we decided for the first time to do a five part series which we're in the middle of dropping right now as we record this. And it's really looking at children in poverty and many ways to think about and talk about that whole, that whole phenomenon and try to enlighten our viewers into ways to of how they can think about it.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay. As I understand it, you're working to raise awareness about children living in poverty right here in the US So for my listeners, let's review a few facts just to put this issue into perspective. First, what percentage of children under the age of 18 in the US are living in poverty according to the US Census Bureau? And what are some of the long term impacts of childhood poverty on health and well being?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

We could spend some time digging into all sorts of crazy detailed policy issues around how we even measure poverty, but I'll spare your listeners that. But to say that if you look at one of the most common ways in which we measure child poverty, in the American Community Survey, the national child poverty rate was about 16%. Now, I want to put that into a little bit of context here, which is that that is higher than the overall poverty rate. So let's let that sink in, right? Children are more likely to live in families that are living in poverty than adults are or seniors or things like that. And that's not to discount poverty and for anyone, but to say like, yikes, children in the US that's really significant. And we can talk about how that has also changed. There was a big drop in the poverty rate just about three years ago in the child poverty rate and then it went shooting back up. And that's because one of the most successful sets of anti poverty measures that we've ever done in the history of the United States was related to the pandemic, led to historically low rates of child poverty. My goodness. Right. We finally solved it and then we declined to continue those programs in the last couple of years. And that's on Congress's watch that that's happened.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

So now speaking of that, how much more likely are children in poverty to experience adverse childhood experiences, or called ACEs for short, compared to their peers from what you've seen? And why is this so important to address?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

So adverse childhood experiences, or as it's sometimes called ACEs, is something we've been talking about for probably a good 20 years or even more. And we've come to recognize that adversity in childhood, what happens in childhood, does not stay in childhood. There are very measurable effects that this has on human health and well being over the lifespan. So for example, if you look at the number of categories of adversity that someone said, yes, this happened to me as a child, you look then at their risk of heart disease as an adult, right, in their 50s, 60s, et cetera, they're much higher, much, much higher. And we have biological mechanisms and all sorts of things by which we can measure this and show this as assays of cortisol, which is a stress hormone, and epigenetic studies and all sorts of things like this is measurable in very clear ways. However, what we recognize is that adversity is much more common in children living in poverty. And of course people listening to this might say, well, duh, of course it is, right? You know, if you don't have enough food, you don't have stable housing, et cetera, et cetera. But I also want to point out that adversity is not limited to those living in poverty. Even those with substantial incomes can experience significant levels of adversity. And it too can have an effect on their long term health as well.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

So from your experience, what are some of the significant factors that can really help families coping with chronic adversity that you have seen?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

So about 12 years ago, there was a landmark policy statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics that really laid out for the first time in a medical context, how do we think about all this? And it laid out all this stuff about adversity and something we call toxic stress, which is kind of unmodified, kind of major stressors that go on for a long period of time in a child's life. The problem with that report, and the authors themselves recognized this, was that it was a very medical report in the sense that it talked about what was wrong, all the deficits, all the issues. It was very negatively oriented. It wasn't strengths based. So when a revision to this came out 10 years later, so relatively recently now, they said all that stuff we said is true, please don't throw that out. But now we need to talk about the solution. And the solution is, how do we build in contrast to adverse childhood experiences, how do we create positive childhood experiences? And what some of the work has shown is that positive childhood experiences are in a sense even more powerful than the adverse childhood experiences. So believe it or not, a child who's had little to no adversity, but little to no positive experiences does worst in a kid who's had some adversity, but has also had good positive experiences. And that's some of the most recent thinking and scholarship on this has been, wait a minute, does that mean that having a challenge, but then followed by repair, what they call rupture and repair, is that really better? Yes, because I think a lot of people think, oh, no child should ever have to experience stress. And it's like, my goodness, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stressful circumstances are how we build new skills and build coping mechanisms. For example, you and I are recording this podcast right now. If suddenly the whole system crashes and we have to scramble to get back on and we had to piece together the audio, right? I don't know about you, but I know I and my producer have been there on our podcast, you know, and we've, you know, and we've made it work, right? And we've figured it out and we've figured out how to deal with those circumstances. It's no different for any other situation that's out there.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

That's really fascinating. So essentially you were saying that aiming for a stress free childhood is not ideal or the goal, but rather this idea of rupture and learning how to repair and deal with that stress, that really is what we should aim for. Now, why hasn't this been emphasized more in your opinion?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

I think to a certain extent it comes down to some expectations we have about what it means to be a child at this point in human history. So let's remember about a 100, 120 years ago, right? Your chances of surviving the first year of life or the first five years of life were not high. It hasn't been that long since we've lived in an environment where we say, hey, wait a minute, children are likely, when they're born, they're likely to grow up to adulthood. And not just grow, but to flourish and thrive. So I think we have this idea sometimes that like, oh, oh, no stressor should happen and we don't recognize that that's actually a necessary and important thing. That tolerable stress actually is. Is important.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

We'll be right back. Are you looking for an easy and effective way to boost your nonprofits donations? Look no further than DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your fundraising efforts, maximizes donations and simplifies giving for your supporters. With DonorBox, you can create beautiful donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, track donations, and send auto receipts. And the best part, there are no setup or monthly fees and no long term contracts required. So what are you waiting for? Visit donorbox.org today to get started. That is donorbox.org hey friends, thanks so much for listening to the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Many of you know that I provide leadership and life coaching with my 30 years of nonprofit experience. I know firsthand how hard leaders like you work. I also know how important it is to have someone you can call on and to get help with the barriers and leadership challenges you will face both professionally and personally. I really want to help people thrive and become all they were meant to become by providing coaching and consulting services. And it's been so much fun working as a coach, working with clients who are leaders just like you, looking to grow personally and professionally. What you may not know is that I also provide consulting services currently. In fact, I'm working with an organization to help them create a clear strategy and plan to raise $3.5 million to expand their organization. So perhaps you're an executive director and you sense your organization has hit a lid on growth and you need a strategy as to how you can scale your nonprofit. Or perhaps the culture you set out to create is not the culture you have currently and it's impacting your staff retention. Or maybe you're facing a major resource challenge and you don't know what to do. That's where I can help. I come alongside leaders and organizations to create strategies to grow their organizations and maximize their impact. If your nonprofit needs help with fundraising strategy or operational effectiveness, reach out today. You can simply email [e-mail] you can go to my website, robharder.com, or you can call me 435-776-5173. I would be happy to provide a free sample coaching session or a consult to see how I can best be of help to you and your organization. Well, thanks again for listening. Now back to the show. Well, I know you deal with a lot of challenges and have to manage a lot of stress yourself, so I always like to ask this question of my guests. With all that you're working on, what is giving you hope these days?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

One of the solutions that was laid out in that policy statement that I referenced from the American Academy of Pediatrics was that we need to be thinking and talking about something that's called relational health. And many people may not be familiar with this term, but it's the science of looking and thinking about the health of relationships. So not just the parent or caregiver, not just a child, but what about the space between them, right? How do they connect with one another? How do they interact with one another? And again, it comes back to that whole rupture and repair idea, right? We don't ever want to tell parents or have them feel like if you don't pay attention to your child 100% of the time, every single second, you're going to harm them, right? Like, no, you have to be able to look away. You have to be able to do things, other things and so on. That's not feasible. You'll drive yourself bonkers as a parent, it is not possible. But how are we able to tell that child, hey, hey, even if I'm not paying attention to you right at that moment, I'll be back in a moment. Don't worry. Have that expectation that I will be back, and so on. All these sorts of little micro interactions. So even in a family that's facing immense challenges, right, you know, lack of employment, maybe housing, insecurity, food insecurity, et cetera, I am not by any means pretending that we can fill a child's stomach just with the right interaction. Right? That's crazy that we shouldn't ever be thinking that. But amidst all this adversity, can we create circumstances, small moments in which that child knows, okay, but my caregiver's still here, and my caregiver loves me, and my caregiver will respond to me. Maybe not every single second, but I know that they're still there. If we can do that, that's a measure of strong relational health, and it can serve as a buffer against many of these other things until we get our acts together as a society and figure out how to solve, you know, hungry children and people without housing and things like that.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

So you're saying that relational health is just as important as physical health, Is that right?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

Yes. I mean, they both interplay off of each other. For example, you know, if a parent is in chronic pain, right, let's say they have some medical condition that's unaddressed because they don't have health insurance or something like that. It is really hard to tend to your child's needs, emotional or otherwise, when you have that added burden. So let's recognize that they interact with each other as well.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay, now let's talk a bit more about your podcast Reach out and Read initiative. First of all, who are some of the guests that you've had on the show, and what are your main goals with this podcast?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

So let me actually, if I may, if I can just talk about Reach out and Read as an organization for a moment, because then it'll highlight what we're trying to do in the podcast. So Reach out and Read is a program that's been around for 35 years. It was this brilliant, brilliant idea by someone way smarter than me who said, why don't we take these checkups that kids have so frequently early in life, from birth to age 5, that's about 14 regular checkups that happen. Let's take advantage of that opportunity and talk to families about the importance of sharing books with one Another asking about how it's going and offer troubleshooting advice, or simply saying, yes, you're doing it. Right, right. And all those things. And we give them a book. We walk in with an age appropriate, developmentally appropriate, brand new, lovely, diverse, high quality book in our hands and we give it directly to the child. Why? Because we want to watch what they do with it. We want to watch their reaction, the parent's reaction. Does that toddler take that book and go toddling over to their parent and hold it out in that read to me gesture? If they do, they've just told me so much, right? They're saying, I know what this thing is. This is that thing that if I take it over to you and hold it out, I think you're going to pull me up in your lap. You're going to open this book and we're going to look at it together, and I want you to do it. That is a beautiful measure, an assessment of relational health right there. Right. Right in front of me in the exam room. And then we have a chance. You know, the parent might say, well, my toddler, he used to like being read to, but he doesn't like it anymore. Oh, that's interesting. Well, it turns out, right, that maybe their child is just. Toddlers have a naturally short attention span, so that is completely normal. But they're discouraged. Oh, he doesn't like it? No, no, no, he likes it just fine. He's just, you know, let him hold a book, look for things in the pictures, make up stories about the pictures. Right. We're not going to make you write an essay on it. You know, so when we do all this, we're trying to make books and the shared book reading experience. Okay. People sometimes say, oh, you're a book giveaway program. Well, we are giving away books, but we're secretly a parenting support program. We're building the skills in that family to have these moments that matter together with one another. So all this stuff I just went on about with relational health, to a parent, like, okay, that's nice, but I have no clue what you really mean. How's that supposed to look at home? But we can, say, share books together, even if it's a few minutes before bedtime, even if you're busy, just build it into where you can. That's relational health building. So, yes, we're an early literacy program, but we're also a relational health building program. In that way. We didn't have the words for it 35 years ago, but we've been doing it all along.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Now, thanks for the background on that program. Now I would like to talk about the series itself, perhaps talk a bit about the origins of it. And what do you really hope to accomplish through this podcast initiative?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

Gosh. I was an undergraduate randomly working as a research assistant on a child development project in Boston back when Richard and reed was maybe 4 years old. And I heard about this program and then I encountered it when I was in physician assistant school. It had been implemented at that clinic. I set it up in a clinic I worked in as a PA in outpatient pediatrics. And then when I came to Wisconsin for my pediatric residency training, we had no statewide affiliate here, so I helped set that up. And then I've now been on the board for Reach out and Reed national for a number of years and then now hosting this podcast, which is one of the good things that came out of the pandemic was saying, hey, let's try this out in some ways. So, as I said, this is one of the good things that came out of the pandemic. We started, like many organizations, to have a massive national staff call, right, Just to kind of stay connected and all. And we had some really neat and interesting speakers. And I said to our CEO at the time, I said, gosh, I'd love to have some way of sharing this with the wider world. And we decided that we wanted to keep our speaker conversations within the organization just, you know, logistically. But he said, you know, we've, we've talked about a podcast before here, let's put a few dollars into this. Got an amazing, excellent producer who I still work with, and we started with a twice a month podcast and we've won two national awards. So yay. Thank you. And I honestly think it's some of the best work I've ever had a chance to do because we get to have, I'm sure you're familiar with this. We get to have interesting conversations with all sorts of amazing people. Children's book authors and illustrators, national kind of people thinking about policy and children all. We've had academics on, we've had healthcare practitioners. It just runs the gamut. And we've been able to really tell so many great stories to people. And I actually make my. I teach an undergraduate class and a graduate public health class and I make them listen to some episodes because it's already there. Here, listen to this. So a lot of good storytelling about how we can make the world of children and families better right through the ideas and resources and thoughts that are out there. And that's what led us to this five part series on children in poverty.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

All right, well, so as people are listening to your podcast or listening to this podcast and they're tuning in to all the work that you're doing, what do you want those who are listening to take away from your work?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

I think recognizing that when families, children and their families face challenges, these are actually solvable problems and that it's not inevitable that these things are just like they're going to happen. So why even try? Human beings can actually make these changes and we actually have good examples. And the things that are keeping us from being successful are not a lack of solutions, but it's actually a lack of whether we're willing to implement them and how we get people to think about this in the ways that are real and true and not because of ideas that people want to put out there because they don't want to make these sorts of investments. In general, I think there's a lot we talk about in the Reach on Reed podcast like this, and it's particularly true in this series on children in poverty.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Okay, well, if you were to map out the next one or two or even three years, where would you like to see this initiative take the organization?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

So this is part of the Rich HUD and Reed and its strategic plan has announced a very bold, dare I say audacious goal. We'll go with it. That by 2030 we want to reach at least half, 50% of all children under age five in the U.S. so our model is again, birth to age five. Yeah, there's no reason we shouldn't be there by 2030. There's very few programs out there that have that kind of scale. Now, I want to be really clear. I don't believe that talking to families about shared reading together again is going to solve a lack of housing. Right. Let's get real. But we need to recognize that at the same time that we have amazing evidence based programs that are intensive, like home visiting. But there's no way you can get that to more than a small percentage of the people that need it because it costs money. We also need evidence based like reach out and read broadly scalable programs that can help with folks whose needs aren't as intense. And that can't hurt for those who have much more intensive needs. In fact, they probably help just the scale. Their need is much greater. We need an ecosystem of supports in the same way that everything I've just said today is about how do we adjust the environments around children and families, whether it's that micro environment of what happens at home, that middle environment of what's happening in communities and what are the resources that are available, or more broadly speaking, what's the policy landscape at the societal level that makes a difference? All of these are about how we can adjust. It's what we call the social ecological model. It's the same sort of idea here that we can live in this ecosystem of supports that Richard and Reed sits somewhere in that middle space. We need broader solutions and we need to be friends to those people with broader solutions and them to be friends to us and same with those micro solutions and everything in between. Right. That all of these things interplay and support one another and are part of solutions. We're all in this together like we're not competitors.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

All right, well, how can my listeners who really wanted to find out a little bit more about you and find out more about your work, where would you send them?

[Dr. Depechnov Saria]

Yeah, so for the work of reach out and read, go right to our website, which is reach reachoutandread, all one word.org or just type reach out and read into Google. It'll come right up. And our website has a ton of great resources about the program and also a great early literacy research library that they've put together and so on. The podcast is also housed on there and you can find all I think today's recording might have been episode 120. So yeah, there's hours and hours and hours of listening that people can avail themselves of if they if they so desire.

[Dr. Rob Harder]

Hey friends. Well, I wanted you to know that this podcasts can be found on itunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google podcasts and wherever you listen to other podcasts. I also want to encourage you to like subscribe and share this podcast with others. This will actually help us get this great content out to more nonprofit leaders just like you. You can also join the nonprofit leadership Podcast community, find other resources and interviews of past guests, all on my website now nonprofit leadershippodcast.org well, thanks again for listening and until next time, keep making your world better. And don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel, the Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. Go to YouTube and look up Nonprofit Leadership Podcast. We'll see you there. This podcast is sponsored by Donorbox Donor Box, helping you help others with the best donation forms in the business.