Navigating Uncertainty As A Nonprofit Leader: Words of Wisdom With Rhea Wong

Summary

Podcast Summary: Navigating Uncertainty As A Nonprofit Leader: Words of Wisdom With Rhea Wong

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofit Mastermind Podcast
• Host: Brooke Richie-Babbage
• Episode Title: Navigating Uncertainty As A Nonprofit Leader: Words of Wisdom With Rhea Wong
• Release Date: September 24, 2024
• Description: This episode delves into the challenges nonprofit leaders face in uncertain times, offering insights and strategies to navigate through turmoil and set the stage for impactful growth.

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Introduction

Brooke Richie-Babbage welcomes listeners to a special episode where she joins her business bestie, Rhea Wong, to discuss the realities of running a nonprofit organization. Drawing from their two decades of experience working together in the nonprofit sector, they aim to provide wisdom to help leaders navigate the tumultuous landscape of 2024.

Challenges of 2024 for Nonprofits

Rhea and Brooke open the conversation by addressing the unique difficulties faced by nonprofits in 2024. Both leaders express that the year has been unexpectedly challenging, deviating from their anticipated trajectories despite their efforts and preparations.

Key Points:

• Economic Shifts: Rhea highlights the "post-pandemic depression," noting that while organizations saw a surge in support during the pandemic, funding has since dwindled as circumstances normalized.

  Rhea Wong [05:31]:
  "Now more than ever, we are just saturated with all of the emails and all of the texts and all of the phone calls. It's harder than ever to cut through the noise to actually talk to your people."

• Energetic and Societal Shifts: Both discuss the broader societal changes, including political uncertainties and economic anxieties, contributing to a sense of instability and unpredictability.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [03:07]:
  "This sense that there are some real sort of tectonic shifts happening in our society and we don't know who we're going to be is really unnerving for people."

Navigating Through Noise with Authenticity

Brooke reflects on Rhea's earlier insights about authenticity being crucial in a year filled with noise and constant communication. They emphasize the importance of genuine storytelling over increasing the volume of messages.

Key Points:

• Quality Over Quantity: Instead of trying to be louder amidst the chaos, nonprofits should focus on being real and authentic in their communications.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [06:47]:
  "We become part of the noise."

• Wisdom Over Knowledge: Rhea points out that while we are inundated with information, there's a scarcity of wisdom. She advocates for fewer, more meaningful interactions that resonate with the audience.

  Rhea Wong [07:05]:
  "There are fewer people out here who I will call the truth sayers... as it were."

Embracing Failure and Building Resilience

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the fear of failure and the necessity of embracing it as a pathway to growth. Both leaders share personal anecdotes highlighting their own mistakes and the lessons learned from them.

Key Points:

• Personal Accountability: Brooke and Rhea discuss the importance of leaders taking responsibility for setbacks, rather than attributing failures to external factors.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [09:41]:
  "We can say, oh, it's okay to fail... but not for me."

• Learning from Mistakes: Rhea shares her experiences with staffing and hiring mistakes, emphasizing the value of honest reflection and strategic planning to overcome these challenges.

  Rhea Wong [17:00]:
  "I really perceived asking for help as a sign of weakness, when in actuality, the learning I should have taken away was it was actually a measure of strength to know when I needed help."

• Growth Mindset: Emphasizing a growth mindset, they encourage leaders to recognize and address their gaps, seeking mentorship and coaching to bridge those areas.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [12:11]:
  "There's nothing to be ashamed of. It's the only way to grow."

Strategic Adaptation and Organizational Evolution

The discussion shifts to the necessity for organizations to evolve in response to changing environments. Leaders must continuously adapt their strategies to stay relevant and effective.

Key Points:

• Avoiding Stagnation: Brooke shares a story about a failed event due to complacency, illustrating the importance of innovation and testing new approaches rather than relying on past successes.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [20:13]:
  "You can never rinse and repeat."

• Embracing Change: Rhea encourages nonprofits to consider mergers, acquisitions, or partnerships as means to adapt and thrive amidst uncertainty.

  Rhea Wong [26:12]:
  "Darwin and how the environment forces evolution."

Balancing Accountability and Innovation

Navigating the delicate balance between being accountable to boards and stakeholders while pursuing innovative strategies is another critical theme.

Key Points:

• Board Relationships: Brooke discusses the challenges of board accountability, noting that sometimes boards may not always align with the executive director's vision, making strategic decisions difficult.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [23:10]:
  "Boards hold us accountable for things that aren't right."

• Empowering Leadership: Both leaders stress the importance of executive directors standing in their power to make informed decisions, even when facing resistance from governance bodies.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [23:42]:
  "That dance between accountability and actually standing in your own power."

Final Insights and Takeaways

As the conversation draws to a close, Brooke and Rhea reinforce the notion that challenges are inherent in nonprofit leadership but also present opportunities for growth and improvement.

Key Points:

• Resilience Through Challenges: Embracing the metaphor "rough seas make good sailors," they urge leaders to view difficulties as chances to develop stronger organizational capabilities.

  Rhea Wong [28:30]:
  "It's not easy, but that is the job."

• Seeking Support: Both leaders highlight the importance of not facing challenges alone, promoting their respective programs designed to support nonprofit leaders in strategic growth and major donor management.

  Rhea Wong [30:06]:
  "You don't have to do it alone."

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [19:45]:
  "If it sounds like support you could use, you can apply at brookerichiebabbage.com/nextlevelnonprofit."

• Growth Amidst Chaos: Brooke shares a personal story of financial struggle leading to eventual organizational growth, underscoring that perseverance through chaos can lead to significant success.

  Brooke Richie-Babbage [24:52]:
  "Sometimes the period of time right before your biggest, best growth feels chaotic."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a mutual encouragement for nonprofit leaders to embrace authenticity, accountability, and resilience. Brooke and Rhea remind listeners that while the journey may be fraught with challenges, the collective wisdom and support from seasoned leaders can pave the way for sustainable growth and impact.

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Notable Quotes:

• Rhea Wong [05:31]: "It's harder than ever to cut through the noise to actually talk to your people."
• Brooke Richie-Babbage [06:47]: "We become part of the noise."
• Rhea Wong [07:05]: "There are fewer people out here who I will call the truth sayers."
• Brooke Richie-Babbage [09:41]: "We can say, oh, it's okay to fail... but not for me."
• Rhea Wong [17:00]: "Asking for help was actually a measure of strength."
• Brooke Richie-Babbage [23:10]: "Boards hold us accountable for things that aren't right."
• Rhea Wong [28:30]: "Rough seas make good sailors."
• Rhea Wong [30:06]: "You don't have to do it alone."

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Resources Mentioned:

• Brooke Richie-Babbage's Program: Next Level Nonprofit Accelerator (brookerichiebabbage.com/nextlevelnonprofit)
• Rhea Wong's Program: Focused on Major Donor Giving

Connect with Brooke:

• Newsletter: Leadership for 321 – Sign up by texting "impact" to 66866
• Podcast Links and Resources: brookerichiebabbage.com/podcast

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for nonprofit leaders seeking to navigate uncertainties, offering firsthand experiences, actionable strategies, and encouragement to foster resilient and impactful organizations.

Transcript

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Hello. Hello. So I have a special episode for you today. I am joining my wonderful business bestie, Rhea Wong on her podcast to talk about, well, to talk about the realities of running a nonprofit. She and I were in the trenches together 20 years ago as baby EDS and we've gone up through the system together and we are still business besties and we've learned a lot from those trenches and I don't know, we have thought this has been a really weird year. So we wanted to bring some of our words of wisdom to you to hopefully help you navigate what's been a crazy ride. We are going to talk about how strange 2024 has been, what to do when the fear of failure or actual failure just stops you in your tracks, and some concrete strategies that you can use use to make 2025 your best year ever. So stay tuned, it's a great conversation. Welcome to the Nonprofit Mastermind podcast. I'm Brooke Richie Babbage. I've been in the social impact game for 25 years as a social justice lawyer, turned two time nonprofit founder and leader, turned growth strategist and coach for leaders around the country. I grew my nonprofit from me and an intern in a tiny closet to a high impact seven figure organization. And along the way I learned so, so much about how to build an organization that has real impact and how to do it without burning out. In this podcast, I share the nuts and bolts of all of it so you can do that too. We dive into the mindset, strategies and tactics of how to scale a high impact organization and how to do it in a way that's truly sustainable.

[Rhea Wong]

Hey, nonprofit peeps. It is Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. And today, one of my favorite people on the planet, my business bestie, Brooke Richie Babbage. Hi, Brooke.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Hi. I always love talking to you. I'm so excited about this conversation.

[Rhea Wong]

This conversation is going to be so good. So we decided to do this conversation because we met on Friday and we were talking about how in both of our businesses for 2024 it just has felt very, I don't know, like shit just fell apart. Yeah, it just, it felt hard. It's felt, hey, I thought I was on this, up on this trajectory and then everything exploded. I came in to 2024 with all this like spiritual energy. I think you came into 2024 ready to like get it and it just.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Been the goals for the goals, the classic me for.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things here. I feel like 2024 for a lot of us has been just an ass kicker. And it's not like we've done anything different or did anything wrong. It's just that things have changed. So I'm just wondering, from your perspective, what are you seeing in 2024 with your clients?

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I think it ranges from things are just not clicking right. I've never before forward. I feel a little stuck. I feel for those of you listening who love sci fi, which I do, that idea of being out of phase or you're just like cosmically out of phase, I hear that a lot. I feel that. And I have felt that in with the folks that I work with and then all the way to the other end of the spectrum. I have organizations that I've been working with for years who for the first time in years are really worried about their budget going down. Saw a lot of that in Covid and there were structural reasons for that. But this sense of undoing the things that have been working. They worked last year and nothing seems to have changed enough to explain why they're not working this year. And that sense of like frustration and helplessness is very real. And I think a lot of it to get a little bit rude. There's something different about this year, not just in our sector and as you and I know, not just in the business world. This election and this sense of like foreboding and deeper than that, this sense that there are some real sort of tectonic shifts happening in our society and we don't know who we're going to be is really unnerving for people.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, yeah. That's such a good way to put it because I've. I've thought about this a lot as well, which is, I think from an economic perspective. A lot of us are experiencing the post pandemic depression. Right? Like, I think a lot of organizations got that pandemic bump because people were at home, they had extra money, they thought the good times were going to be rolling forever. Not the case. I think that's thing one. Thing two is I do feel like there's some kind of energetic stuff happening. I think the anxiety around inflation, the election war, it just feels so heavy. And then I think the other thing is donor behavior has changed and buying behavior has changed. So like now more than ever, we are just saturated with all of the emails and all of the texts and all of the phone calls. Like I have a robo killer on my phone because I literally receive so many garbage spam messages that it's harder than ever to cut through the Noise to actually talk to your people. Do you have a perspective on that?

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I do. I don't know if you remember, but coming into this year, I always like doing the. Like one of my early in the year podcast episodes is different people's perspectives, like, what's coming to the year. And your theme was authenticity. And you talked about. And I thought it was really on point. You talked about coming out of last year, there was so much. And people were carrying that noise into the new year, whereas normally people come into a new year and there's. It feels like a clean slate. It did for so many people this year. And that focusing less on frequency and trying to make yourself louder amongst the noise. You really zoned in on the importance of if we want to talk about business terms, storytelling, but really just not trying to be noisier, but trying to be real and trying to talk from a place of. This is what our experience has been this year. Join us. So, yeah, so my perspective is I think that's exactly right. I think there is a lot of noise and I think that what a lot of us have learned to do over the last few years is be noisier, send more and say more and do more. And I think that doesn't work. I think it does the opposite of what we want to do. We become part of the light.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's so good. Because here's what I'll say too, is I've been thinking about the fact that we have more knowledge than ever before. Right now with ChatGPT, it's like we could literally create content like that. We are drowning in knowledge, but we are woefully short of wisdom.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

You always have such green sayings. I love that.

[Rhea Wong]

I just mean that I. To your point about the chatter and the noise, like, there's so much of it. There's more than there's ever been. But there are fewer people out here who I will call, I don't know, the. The truth sayers, like the people who speak. And in ancient times it might have been called like the sage of somebody who may not say a lot, but when they do, it's like wise and truthful. And yes, that that is the way forward. And so I think to the extent that we can is how do we stop trying to talk to everybody? Let us talk to our people and let us talk to our people in a way that is wise and intimate and authentic.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I think one of the things that is scary for people, and this is part of what you and I want to talk about today, I think a lot of organizations and this comes up. I know conversation I have with the leaders I work with. And you and I have talked about it with respect to the folks in NERVE programs as well. There's a real fear of getting things wrong, not knowing the best strategies, being behind the eight ball in terms of what you are supposed to do. And you can't see it, but I'm doing huge air horns. And I think that most people. I'll speak for me when I am uncertain. One of the things that I feel I can turn to is what has worked before. What are people doing that they tell me. And so if you think about fundraising, it's. There's a certain checklist of things you're supposed to do. Right. I do a lot of work around strategic clarity. The number of conversations I've had this year with organizations that have sat down to, quote, unquote, knock out a strategic plan because you are supposed to do that is. It's crazy to me how many times I've had that conversation. So this sort of tyranny of what you're supposed to do is locking us into a way of engaging the supporters and donors, our own teams, our own boards, that isn't authentic. It's, send me the playbook and I'll do the thing you tell me to do rather than actually pausing for a minute and saying, wait, organization, unique expertise, or I have a unique story, or we have a different way of doing this. I'm connecting with our community, and that's okay. And we're going to do this thing that is real and authentic to us, even if we've never seen it work before, we don't know. Nobody told us the thing to do. Right now there's a. You also want to do the things that work. But I think there's a real fear of being authentic, of standing up, slowing down, and being different because people don't.

Want to get it wrong.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. I'm also going to say something controversial. So I was just. Before I got on this call, I was listening to our favorite Alex Hermosi, and he was talking about how when things are not going our way, we tend to. There's like an onion layer. Right. So the first onion layer, we're like, oh, it's the circumstances. It's circumstances beyond my control. It's like the universe. Then the next layer is people. Other people. It's other people's fault. It's my board's fault. It's my donor's fault. It's a team.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

And the core of it is where you retake your power, which is maybe it's me, maybe I'm just not good enough yet. Maybe my marketing just isn't good enough. Maybe my fundraising just isn't good enough. Maybe my plan is just not good enough. And it's a scary thing to get to because no one wants to feel that they're not good enough. No one wants to feel incompetent. But I think the power in it is that if you can admit that it's you, then it's within your realm of control.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I'm going to one up you in terms of controversial and double down. I don't think it's amazing. I think in every situation where something is not going the way that you want it to go, it absolutely is you. It's not only you. It's not just you, but it's. There are always different decisions we can make and things we can learn and gaps that we have. I think I shared with you a story of one of the leaders that I worked with who shared some of the gaps between where they want to be and where they currently are with their team and their board and felt bad even sharing that with me. And I'm the coach that is my job is to help you close those gaps. And my response was never apologize for the gaps. Do not waste time being ashamed of the things you don't know, the things you can't do. That's a waste of brain space because they're always going to be there. There are a thousand things. You know, you've known me for what, 20 years? And I like to say I don't spend a lot of time patting myself on the back for the things I know. And there are a lot of things I know, but I also don't spend any time beating myself up about the things that I don't know. What I try to spend time doing. And what you and I both tell the leaders that we work with get really clear about what those gaps are. If you are afraid of them, you won't be honest about them. But when you aren't afraid of them and you can be honest about them, then we can fix them. There's always a everything's figure out. Yeah, but only if you actually say, yeah, this is something I don't know. That is something such a powerful thing to say and it's the only way to grow.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, I. It's so interesting. So, again, going back to podcast, I was just listening to an interview with David Epstein right before this, and he's all about how do you learn and grow? And part of it is, A, the awareness of here, where the. Where I have gaps. B, here's the plan I'm going to pursue in order to fill those gaps. I'm going to practice and then D, I'm going to measure right? So if I know that I'm not good at, say, marketing and that is a gap I need to fill to move my nonprofit forward or to move my business forward, then it's okay. Then what do I need to learn? Who do I need to learn it from? And how do I know that I have improved in this way? And I think just the process, it goes back to Caldwell, like growth, mindset, like you don't know all of the things you're going to do a lot of things for the first time. The willingness to step into the discomfort of I don't know and I'm going to make mistakes is uncomfortable for folks like us that are high achievers and is also where we need to step in if we want to continue to move things forward and to play a bigger game.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I would say every organization that I've worked with where I have a thought in my they are. This organization is going. There's going to be incredible impact if we keep our eye on this organization in the next three to five years. In every single instance that saw it, a big part of how the leader, the person at the not the person owning everything but the executive director has moved through the world has been this sense of, I'm standing on the edge of uncertainty. I have no idea what's coming next or how to necessarily do it when I'm up for the challenge. And that doesn't mean they're not afraid. It just means they're like, I'm up for the challenge. And that mindset, it's everything, I think.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. Yeah. It also just calls to mind the Marshall Gantz like, challenge, choice, outcome. Right. Look, in life, we are all going to be challenged. And I would say that 2024 has been very challenging for many of us. And within the challenge, you can decide. You can decide. Am I going to, as you say, stand on the precipice and figure it out and find the people who can help me figure it out, or am I going to. Am I going to get my little baby feelings hurt and cry about it? There's no crying in not profiting.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

You know, I thought it would be really interesting when you and I were talking about this a few days ago, we shared examples in our own nonprofit leadership Vault of this very thing. Right. I think especially I'll speak for myself. One of the things I try to be careful about in my coaching with the leaders that I work with is reminding them that I've been where they are right. That I did not get everything right ever. That there were real failures, There were real times when, to your point, I learned, or thought I learned, I measured. And the measurement, the result was, nope, didn't nail this. Right. Or there's still a huge gap. And I find there, the concreteness of sharing my own experiences helps bring home for folks the fact that I'm not just giving lip service to the fact that they have to be able to fail. For me, that really, that is how you grow. I thought it would be interesting if we just share some examples from our past.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, God, where can I even begin? So many things. I think some of the biggest mistakes I ever made were around staffing and hiring. So, yes, so many mistakes. So without naming names, I think some of the mistakes that I've made were around hiring too quickly before I really understood who that person was hiring based simply on a really great interview and good references like understanding that sometimes a person who shows up for the interview is not the same person who shows up for work. Certainly have made mistakes around keeping someone on too long. That I know. I just knew that they were mediocre. I knew they weren't in the job. I knew that they didn't have the skill set to do it. But there was, like, that part of me that, like, just really wants to believe. So I willed it into existence when I, like, did the plans and I set up the trackers for them and all the things holding on too long. And then, gosh, I. I think the other thing is not always handling exits gracefully because I think, look, I've had to fire people. I'm sure you've had to fire people. And it's never comfortable. And I don't think that I was ever callous about it, but I think that I. Because especially the first couple times that I had to do it, I deferred to being, like, very corporate about it because that was the model that I had seen of. Okay, all these people are on my board, and they say that I have to do it this way because of hr, et cetera, et cetera. So this is how we're going to do it. And I think that it probably didn't feel very humane because I'm very warm and I have this kind of relationship. And the minute I'm firing someone who's like very corporate. I'll pause there. I could keep going. But what about you, Brooke?

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

So one of my favorite stories to tell, and it's only my favorite because it's been like a decade and a half and I think you've heard the story. Maybe. So my organization, when we turned five, they threw a big party and it was a fantastic party. We had a dj, it was in a loft, we gave out awards, we had this auction. It was just everything that was perfect. We had city partners and corporate partners and it was great. So fast forward a year and in my mind I had checked the box of how to throw a great event. This was one area of fundraising that I didn't really need to focus on that much because clearly I had figured it out and I had peers who were five, 10 years ahead of me in nonprofit leadership. Being like, do you think maybe you should have a host committee or do you think maybe you should do some copation? I was like, looks you. Thanks so much.

[Rhea Wong]

I'm such a magical snowflake. I don't need it.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

My approach to this. Bria has known me for a long time, so she probably. I hear what you're saying. I am. So I went about my business and decided to throw a six year party. Rinse and repeat. Invites to the same people, same silent auction. Literally, rinse and repeat. I'm gonna let you guess how many people showed up at the party. I will say just spoiler. We did not lose money on the event because people, oh, will send money and it doesn't mean they're coming. But in terms of the actual guess.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh no.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

You're going to think it's amazing how many people.

[Rhea Wong]

34. Shut up. Oh no, Brooke. Oh, that's so painful.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

And it's one of those things we're like.

I'm so excited to share that I've opened the doors for enrollment into my next level nonprofit Mastermind. It's the way that I provide hands on support to leaders of small nonprofits that want to grow without the constant overwhelm and threat of burnout. The program is really awesome. It combines private coaching, group coaching, professional development for your entire team, live training on core areas of nonprofit growth and sustainability, intimate access to sector leaders, and exclusive access to a carefully curated Rolodex of consultants and short term staff support to make sure that you don't get stuck in the idea phase because you simply can't find people on your team to execute.

We've got you covered.

And more than the features that I'm.

Obviously, really excited about.

It's just a wonderful, powerful community of peers. The other coaches and I love working with the leaders inside the program. And if it sounds like support you could use, you can apply at rick ritchie babbage.com backslash next level nonprofit.

I don't know if anyone listening has ever thrown a party where nobody comes. I had not until this party. And it was me, my sister, my sister's friend, because my sister always back friends to my party, which is wonderful. And one of the.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, no, no.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

It was nerd.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

So the reason that I share that story with everyone is because I think it highlights a few things that I learned. One, you can never rinse in. Right. That. And you've heard me say this. Every organization, as it grows, becomes a different organism. It needs different strategies. What work one year isn't necessarily going to work the next year. And so you want to be testing and it already. I did not do that. Another thing that I learned was when I came out of it, like I said, I was mortified. And I immediately thought to myself, oh, there's something. I don't know, going back to your point. Yeah, there were circumstances. It was raining. Yeah. The people on my board didn't bring people. But I'm at the core of this organization, and obviously there's something I missed. And I immediately went into, what did I miss? What do I have to learn? Center. And I think that failing forward was when I first saw about myself. Oh, okay. If I spend a lot of time crying and beating myself about this big failure, I am leaving a lot on the table. Like, actually, the thing I need to do is act, is. Is look at myself and figure out what didn't I do. And I learned a lot. That was a really huge experience.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

And. And yeah, it actually meant. So maybe two or three years later, my director of operations was putting together a series of cultivation events for us, and she kept stalling on getting me the plan. And finally I was like, what's. There's something. There's a block here, because this is a rocket science. And it turns out she was really afraid of letting me happen, really afraid of throwing events where nobody came. And so I told her this story, and I was like, the worst thing that could happen has already happened, so feel free to experiment. And that sense of, we are going to mess, that is okay. We have to learn. I tried to really infuse that into my team because I could actually quit to a concrete ethics man.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. But herein lies the paradox, though, right? Because on the one hand, we can say, oh, it's okay to fail. I often feel like, and I'll speak for myself, it's a do as I say, not as I do situation, because I'm like, oh, yeah, failure. But not for me. So I think that's one thing. The second thing is I think that the paradox is that while we want to embrace failure because it means we're trying things, we also are accountable to boards. And boards are looking at us. And if we look at the people.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

That we serve, right?

[Rhea Wong]

And so they're looking at us like we are the ones leading them forward. And so if we screw up too much, then I think it calls into question our credibility. And then the third thing I'll say is I just want everyone listening to remember, it feels hard because it is hard. This is not easy stuff. You are all out here trying to solve intractable problems in the world, and for many of you, you're doing it for the first time. It's not supposed to feel easy because it's not easy. That's right.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

I'll share, actually, one other. I guess I'll call it a failure learning opportunity, because I think your point about being accountable is a really important. I think it's a dance. Right. I realize I, as the founder of my organization, some privilege that some other executive, A lot of other executive directors don't have, that I was very careful to build a board that was truly a governance board. And also I was the founder, right. So if I failed a lot, the buck still stuck with me to a certain extent. And there, there's a freedom in that. So I just want to name that because that isn't necessarily freedom everyone feels. I also think that where we mess up is in improperly calibrating the balance between how accountable people allow us to feel to them and our ability to fit. Because the reality is sometimes boards hold us accountable for things that aren't right. Boards, I think a lot about financial decisions or where to invest money or what budget should say. I'm going to go on record as eight times out of 10, the executive director is more correct about what our budget should look like than the board is. And yet that feeling of accountability gets in the way of not just taking chances and failing, but making smart strategic decisions. So that dance between accountability and actually standing in your own power and saying, we're going to do this my way, like, I. I have insight here and I know how to do this, that's a really. That's a really hard dance for everybody. So if Those of you listening, if it feels hard to you, as Rhea said, that's a hard dance for free.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. And then as we're finishing up here, Brooke, I also just think it's important to know that you and I have been around long enough to know that there are cycles. And when you're in a down cycle, not to get too down in the dumps about it. And when you're on an up cycle, like, not to pat yourself too much on the back of it, like, ebbs and flows. And I think when you. We see the ebb, it's actually an opportunity to get stronger, to up level the skills that, you know, that you probably didn't have in a. In an upcycle. Right. Cause you were just riding the waves. And I also think it, honestly, it clears the field a little bit. And I know that sounds harsh, but I think it separates the. The women from the girls, as it were. Right. If you're leading an organization and the. This has really been a time where you may be considering downscaling a little bit or you may be considering even closing, I think there is an opportunity to also really strip down to the essence and also to do some hard thinking about who are we? Why do we exist? And is the reason that we exist so relevant? And if it is, can it exist in a new form? Right. Can we think about a merger? Can we think about an acquisition? Can we think about partnerships? Like, there's. I. I always just think about, like, Darwin and how the environment forces evolution.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

It really does. And growth. Right. So the last story I was going to share is a quicker one. Not quite as funny. Not funny at all. Probably the toughest professional year I have ever had was one of the years in my organization, maybe about four years, five years before left, where eight out of the 12 months, we almost didn't make payroll like every single month for like the middle part of the year. It was a real struggle. What were we going to pay late? Who was going to go on furlough? Right. Like, real tough questions. And I absolutely thought about mergers. I absolutely thought. I never thought, is there still relevance? But I did think, are we doing this the right way? Right. Is there still a need? Does the market still be what we have? What I will say is coming out of the back end of that year, and you and I were talking about this a little bit before we got on podcast, that sometimes the period of time right before your biggest, best growth feels chaotic. It feels either stagnant or messy or like you're messing up. You're pushing through a growth edge. The three years following that year were when surpassed seven figures. We had the most amazing team. We expanded to three cities. We were the best, strongest version of our organization. I had more days where I looked and were like, oh, my goodness, this is good. After that really tough year. And it was because of what you highlighted. Right. I came out of the year the back end, and I sat down with my leadership team and I said, what's a better way to do this? Leveled my fundraising. I had different kinds of conversations with my senators. I got brave in my conversations with donors and revisit our. Like, we just got really surgical about the right next steps to take where we had gaps, et cetera. And we got stronger. Right. I will pat myself we were a better organization on the back end because we looked at we were the thing and started to fill in gaps. And I think for those of you listening for whom 20, 24 or any part of the last few years have felt at best, at it, at worst, like chaos. The way through is through.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. Right.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

The through is to say, how can we grow? And don't see it as to your memory, I don't see it as the ending. Like a place you have to be stuck. It's a season you're in. And what's the next season coming?

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. Two things that I'll say is there's that term rough seas make good sailors. Like, we're coming out of a rough sea, y'all. And so I just want to highlight. It's not easy, but that is the job. And then the second thing I'll just say as a plug is if you're listening to this and you're like, I really resonate with this, and I actually would like someone to help me with this. Brooke, you have a program. I have a program. We have been in the game for 20 years. We've seen. I don't want to say we've seen it all, but we've seen a lot. And so you've seen most of it. And we've worked with hundreds of organizations between the two of us, I'm sure we've worked with at least a thousand organizations. We've seen patterns emerge. And so if you're listening to this and you're. And you want support and you want someone to help you see the patterns and see how it might go. Look at Brooke's program. Look at my program, Brooke. Your program is really designed for more sort of the strategic growth and operational organizational growth. My program is really focused on major donor giving. Which to me is the next level of how you get to financial sustainability. Brooke, I'm going to make sure to put all of your info in the show notes. I know that you are doing a launch in October.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Yeah, the doors are open. We just enrolled three people, as in the last few weeks. It's called the Next level accelerator. And yeah, we'll include the link in the show notes.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, I think the big takeaway here, and it's the thing that maybe you and I probably didn't do as well. I don't know. I'll speak for myself.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

You.

[Rhea Wong]

You don't have to do it alone. And I think the probably. If I really reflect on it, the biggest mistake I probably made is I didn't call in mentors and coaches early enough in the process. And I. So I just. I grounded out. I just, like, doubled down. I worked harder, and frankly, I really burned myself out without actually realizing that I could ask for help. I could ask for someone like yourself who's been there, done that, and could help me see around the potential obstacles to let me know, oh, by the way, a big boulder's coming towards your face. You might want to watch out. And I think I really perceived asking for help as a sign of weakness, when in actuality, the learning I should have taken away was. It was actually a measure of strength to know when I needed help. All right, Brett, good to see you, as always, my love.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

This is, as always, a fantastic conversation. Thanks for having me.

[Rhea Wong]

Bye.

[Brooke Richie Babbage]

Thanks so much for joining me this week. If you enjoy this podcast, I would love for you to leave a rating and a review. I read every single one and they really do matter. I also share extra tidbits and resources building on what we talk about here in my newsletter, Leadership for 321. You can sign up by texting the word impact to 66866. And finally, definitely check out the links and resources that I mentioned this [e-mail] backslash podcast. See you next week.