← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
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- [00:00]
A
If you're like me, then you love a checklist. Especially to help manage the chaos of year end fundraising. When you go to my website right now, jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang, you'll get their packet of 12 year end fundraising checklists totally free. You'll get insight into how to plan and execute effective year end fundraising campaigns, questions to inspire donors and to follow up with lapsed donors, innovative ways to re engage donors if you've been a bit quiet all year and how to level up your donation page to get more conversions and build your community. Just go to jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang and get this free download and make sure to let me know what you think. Now on to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi everyone, this is Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about quite a few different things, but we're going to try to answer the question of what does it take to build a truly inclusive, culturally competent organization where burnout isn't the norm, but it's the exception. And today I'm joined by Dr. Rick Rodriguez, co founder and learning partner at the Rooted Life and with over 20 years of experience supporting schools, nonprofits and mission driven organizations, Rick offers a healing, centered, equity driven approach to leadership and organizational development. I am very excited for this conversation. It's been a long time coming. So welcome Rick to the podcast.
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B
Thank you, Julia. I'm super pumped for our dialogue and discourse, maybe even while we've had today. Yeah.
- [02:29]
A
Yes. Well, tell us a bit about your journey and what led you to co found the rooted life.
- [02:36]
B
Absolutely. I'll give my, you know, one minute elevator pitch and I will flag that. I love to talk as many of us do, so definitely at any point just stop me when when needed. But oh no, we love it. Mucho gusto. Buenos dias. Buenas tardes. Wherever you find yourself. My name is Dr. Rick Rodriguez. Julian mentioned I'm a first generation Mexicano Americano. My parents are both from Mexico, my mother from Ciudad de Mexico, my dad from Guanajuato. And I always share this, that although my parents lacked the language, the education, or the wherewithal to navigate systems, one of the things that they didn't lack was a dream and aspiration and grit and really like that sense of fight to ensure that myself and my siblings had a different narrative, or at least access to the things that would allow us to have a different narrative, primarily education. My mother always taught me, you know, education is the one thing that nobody can take away from you at the end of the day, beyond citizenship status, beyond a job or a role or a salary. Education you keep forever. And that's kind of what. What has driven my lifelong journey, but also my lifelong mission and ensuring that now that I have had the opportunity to navigate systems, systems that weren't built for people that look like me, people that don't look like me or looked like me, whether it was that little brown kid who was only speaking Spanish at home and had to navigate English in the schoolhouse, navigating poverty, navigating identity. As a gay male growing up in a very Hispanic community, very Catholic community, I know that there are still those of us out there that represent these communities. And now that I've navigated that, I want to make sure that everyone else has the opportunity just to dream and to really access the things that are beyond their wildest dreams and honestly, beyond the wildest dreams of our. Of our ancestors as well, so that we can also accomplish and achieve. But I bring to this work, you know, experience both from the corporate side and as you mentioned, the K12 and nonprofit sector, as well as the entrepreneur side of things. And I'm always very mindful of how do I elevate not only my identity unapologetically, but within it, being mindful of the dynamics that I'm also navigating. The ego is the personalities, the diversity that exists because I know that I am not just one person in this broader scheme of things. And I always have to ensure that we are collaborating with cohesion and with collective action, but more than anything, with collective movement grounded in some of the core values that we all share, regardless of identity, culture, religion. You know, I always think about Maslow's theory of, you know, belonging. And there's some of the most basic things that we all want and seek. We all just want, you know, health, joy, happiness, food, shelter, belonging, and beyond that that that is possible. Unfortunately, we're just navigating systems that can be a little bit more challenging to really interpret what that means for us at the individual level, at the community level, and then at the broader organizational or society level. But I appreciate this question often because one of the reasons that myself and my partner started Rooted Life was because we found ourselves in spaces, even within education, in which the people in the front of the room did not reflect the identity of the audience. It was oftentimes very affluent, very Caucasian or Anglo folks that were leading learning sessions or professional development around DEI or around some of these other topics. And I always just had this little question mark in my head of like, why aren't we leading these spaces for ourselves and within it, I wanted to ensure that representation was always top of mind and within it, how do we best build that collective vision across and with shared identity, with shared experiences, regardless of who we represent? So it was a little dream that I had a couple of years ago, and that's what I call my little baby right now that we're trying to continue to grow and foster, but within it, where we want to be mindful of what it takes to be in these spaces. And a lot of it is also grounded in a lot of unlearning that we have to do. Unlearning because we've all been assimilated into these systems that operate in a certain way, or you have to operate or act in a certain way in order for you to have access or success. So there's a lot of unlearning and unpacking, and then separately, there's a lot of healing that needs to happen as well for individuals and for our communities. And then separately, I would say that there's a lot of curiosity that needs to happen. You know, I think about us as kids, you know, age, you know, zero to, I would say, five or six. And kids are always asking, what are the most basic questions? Why, how? Who like the most basic things, and we stop asking them. As we grow up, we reach a point in which we just go or follow the status quo. But we all inside of us, we're still that little kid that is super curious. So I think within it, our approach is very grounded in, let's ask the questions for the betterment of what we're doing, but ultimately to continue to learn throughout.
- [07:35]
A
How are you? And how is the rooted life sort of navigating this moment with this. This wave of anti DEI sentiment that's coming at us sort of from all directions. Like, I think a lot of nonprofits are worried about putting anything about equity and inclusion and diversity on their websites now for fear of reprisal, for fear of grants being pulled. It's just kind of a horrifying moment right now. And I know, I'm sure that, you know, it's affecting your community, your business. So I would love to know, like, how the rooted life is sort of navigating these waters right now. And do you have any advice for the rest of us how to survive?
- [08:17]
B
Yeah, well, I want to. You know, you mentioned this very real thing that's happening across the sector and honestly, across sectors, even beyond nonprofit and education. I am seeing it in my own reality as well, to the points that you just mentioned. And one of the things that I always come down to, especially in the work of consulting, the beauty is that you can, like, pick and choose your clients as well.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So there. There's always a piece of that that's at the back of my mind, because from our perspective, we are trying to collaborate with people who are ready to do it and for people who are willing to be a part of the uphill battle, quote unquote, or ready to ruffle feathers. And I'm seeing that it really is depending on leadership. Leadership matters. We know that. I've come across quite a few nonprofit leaders in education, K12 leaders, who, while navigating the current situation, also realize that it's detrimental to the students and families that they are serving. So I always put on this lens of, sure, I can just sit idly by and take a step back, but how am I making this place better for the student that still is trying to learn English, or the parent who's trying to put food on the table, or they're just trying to go to the grocery store or to their local place of worship, but they're scared. Right. So I think for me, I'm leaning into that sense of fear as a strength in empowerment for myself and for my community. And not everybody is able to do that. I will be honest with you. Right. It takes a lot of vulnerability, and it takes a lot of, I would say, you know, partially passion. But more than anything, like being rooted in those core values that you want to be true to at the end of the day. So as organizations are navigating, it, sure, listen to the surroundings, listen to the landscape, see what's happening. But if you're seeing that anything is impacting or creating disservice for the communities, that should be at the central aspect and lens of what you do, then there's a gap there to begin with. And that's where we can come in and bridge those gaps. So to your point, like, the other piece of this is that leadership at different levels operates oftentimes through this lens of politics and bureaucracy within systems in society. So, for example, let's say in education, the teacher in the classroom is the one that sees the work, the one that does the work, the one that sees the impact, hears the stories, connects with our families and students, while the superintendent that lives up in this space, maybe they're already far removed or they're already desensitized of what is actually happening at the ground level. So within the leaders that I work with, I ask them, when's the last time you spoke with your number one stakeholder? When's the last time you heard the story with a student or sat down with. With your teachers even? When's the last time you had a conversation or invited families into your office and really had discourse and dialogue to better understand what is truly happening and how these decisions are impacting them at the ground level? So it takes a lot of initiative, a lot of effort. It's not easy, but it's worth it.
- [11:30]
A
Absolutely.
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B
We know apathy is real, and apathy is going to probably impact us, impact us negatively if we don't do something about it or if we don't do something different. So I'm not here to just sit back, Julia. I'm here to be a part of the fight in the movement throughout and hopefully within it, leave my little grain of salt or grain of sand so that others can also slowly feel that ripple effect to create a broader movement in this.
- [11:56]
A
Me, too. I'm never one to sit back and hold my tongue. I think that's really important. And I. I think that you made a really great point about apathy and nonprofits being really scared to kind of get into the fray. But with the rooted life, you. What I thought was so interesting is that it's, you know, a lot. There's a lot of people that talk about consulting and throw around the word consulting, but on your website, it really talks about a learning partner. So I want, I would love to learn more about that just from my own knowledge. But also, how did you come up with that strategy and how does that work in practice with your clients?
- [12:33]
B
Sure. Well, you know, Julia, I will say this. When we hear the word consultant, I feel like there's already connotations that come with it.
- [12:39]
A
I know. Unfortunately.
- [12:42]
B
Right. It's like, here's this individual that's going to come in and tell me what to do. Maybe Give me some strategy and guidance, maybe have a follow up and then call it a day. Check the box. We did the thing a learning partner and we kind of created this. This new word for the work that we do in collaboration with our partners is rooted in the reality that we are all continuing to learn. Even myself as a learning partner, don't have the silver bullet answer to all of the things I have lived, experience and I have, you know, a lot of my education and expertise in certain areas. But every situation when I come across supporting a nonprofit or even when I'm coaching an individual is going to look different. And part of it is also going to allow me to learn as an individual, to continue to strengthen my toolkit, but beyond that, continue to strengthen my sense of empathy and my sense of collective collaboration. When we say this with our partners, it's really about diving, like rolling up our sleeves alongside our partners versus just coming in to facilitate a learning session. Our approach, what it looks like in practice is really having a more in depth understanding of who our clients are and not just the individual or the project manager that we're going to be working with on their end. But I'm going to have empathy interviews across stakeholders in their organization, including the people that they provide services to, because I want a broader lens of what is actually happening in the ecosystem and within it. One I'm learning a little bit more deeper sense of like what is actually going, going on. You know, oftentimes the problem isn't the actual problem, if that makes sense.
- [14:20]
A
Yes.
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B
So really diving deeper into like, what is that root cause through that lens, leveraging that to identify what are the best interventions to approach that. The separate, separate thing to this is that I am not the person that's going to solve the issue. At the end of the day, people will go back to their environments, go back to their teams, go back to their offices, and then they have to take on whatever they learned to put things into sustainable implementation that is really going to support change management, that is fruitful for whatever goal or project they're trying to accomplish. And through that process, as a learning partner, I will support them through it. So through any of my engagements, I support with individual coaching throughout, I support with what are those points through the project in which we need to pause and pivot and really reflect so that we can, you know, align ourselves accordingly based on some of the things that we can't control through some of these spaces. And then ultimately, whenever we follow up with our clients, it really is a learning experience. So not only From a sense of accountability in what we accomplished and how they're able to implement forward. But separately, I always ask, what is my role within this? What is my role as your learning partner? To see this through and ensure that I can also have a sense of responsibility alongside you versus this sense of I just wipe my hands clean Next project. I'll pause there and see if you have any thoughts or reflections.
- [15:49]
A
Well, I think, I mean, it's like you said, many nonprofits kind of stop at a DEI training or they just stop at, maybe they have a book club or they, they take a webinar and then they think, okay, this is all we have to do to check the box for, you know, cultural competency. So what is missing from that approach? And like, in your, in your opinion, what is truly culturally competent leadership look like? And side note, is cultural competency, Is that still the word, the term? Because I know the terms are changing.
- [16:22]
B
Yes, that is still the word. Short answer. People may use different verbiage or jargon surrounding this. Oftentimes they're also trying to be safe in the words that they're using and how they approach it, depending on the environments that they find themselves in. Cultural competency at the core still remains. And through it, as I consider that in, in my supports of leaders, I. It really is about them as an individual person. Right. So does the leader know themselves? And do they know themselves outside of a title, a role, a salary, or an organization? Do they know themselves in relation to who they represent from a cultural standpoint, language standpoint, their parents, their grandparents, their ancestors? Really navigating and challenging ourselves to tap into that sense of our identity that oftentimes, for whatever reason, we hide behind or that we just avoid in certain spaces. And if a leader is able to do that for themselves, then that's when we come in and start challenging. How do you do that for those around you? Right. So when I lead learning spaces or when I lead retreats for teams, it really is unpacking, unpacking a lot of that trauma, unpacking the lived experiences that we're challenging, unpacking the hurt to themselves or to their families, and allowing spaces for them to see each other as humans first. A lot of times, what I find through all of this, because I always tie it back to values us outside of the organizational values that we're trying to incorporate into practice. Always tie it back to, like, what are the values that you learned growing up? Not surprised. Oftentimes, regardless of whether I'm Latino, whether I'm gay, whether we have somebody who's black or Asian or Caucasian in the room. The values oftentimes very, very similar, if not exactly the same. But we don't, we don't lead with that, we don't lead with that within teams because now we have these other organizational values or these other metrics or these other goals and objectives in which we're not able to really, truly show up as ourselves within it. Right. So my approach is often, yes, let's dive into that perspective, but then align it back to the broader picture. Right. Like what is your role, what is the values that you hold as an individual, as a human, in relation to the work that you're doing in this organization? Right. And oftentimes, again, like, people may forget, people may not have the space to talk about those things. People may not be vulnerable enough to tap into those aspects of identity within leadership. But truly from our lens, that is where the strength lies. And we see it, we see it through a lot of societal large scale movements that we've seen in this country or globally. Start with seeing each other as humans first, having that first initial sense of empathy to understand, to listen, to learn from each other as humans, but then also the communities that we represent. And that is how you really spark one, engagement, two, a sense of responsibility and accountability, and probably three, a sense of contribution, collective contribution for what the bigger picture is. There's opportunity in this, in this time right now for a lot of nonprofits because we're listening to so much noise that's happening around us that's causing us to hold back or to hinder progress or just to hide ourselves. Like this is the time as we were talking before we jumped on, like, if, if we're not doing it now, then what are we doing?
- [19:58]
A
What are we doing?
- [19:59]
B
Yeah. So I, I, I'm always very mindful of that. And as I mentioned earlier, like tap into curiosity. Curiosity can uncover so much more cultural competency than a training on cultural competency can provide. You ask the questions of each other and through that, that's how we're kind of just able to learn a little bit more deeper. And what I've seen through my support with that approach is that there's also a lot of trust that happens. You build trust, you mend, you know, dynamics that maybe are faltering. You realign, you recommit, and you're able to really like see yourself within it versus just the person who's doing the thing.
- [20:43]
A
I think that's so great. And I had told you, you know, before we, before we hit record. A question I'm really struggling with right now because I teach digital marketing and digital fundraising, outreach and visibility, and I just am struggling to help nonprofits, you know, build community in an age where companies are profiting off of our division and our rage and our resentment of each other. So especially on social media, of course. So how do you build community in this age where we're so divided and not even like you were saying, we're probably not divided, but all of the tech tools and all of the platforms we're using profit off of our division.
- [21:30]
B
Oh, 100%. That's where you need the willingness to do something different about it, like, similar to you and I. So, one, you need to start with being willing to not accept the current reality. My approach in the. In this digital space goes back to the most basic things of storytelling. There is power in storytelling, right? Like, regardless of who we represent, I have grown so much more listening to even stories that my grandmother shared or that my parents share or that my siblings share or that close friends and chosen family share with me. Storytelling, for the most part, is also not as prevalent as it should be. Unfortunately, we go straight to the end goal or the end outcome.
- [22:15]
A
We.
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B
We miss that middle piece of really elevating our lived experiences as a strength, regardless whether they're beautiful or challenging. It all is strength within leadership and the broader approach that we take. So digitally, when I do work with teams that are remote or from east coast to west coast, sometimes I've had to host and facilitate these healing spaces I'm very mindful of. Although we are on zoom, maybe it's very low tech. Even when I facilitate, I don't leverage materials or PowerPoints or resource guides because all of that is supplemental. What really needs to happen is like, let me see you on camera. Let me ask the questions, let me have that discourse. And the approach is very simple. When we meet somebody, we know what we're curious about. And you're also able to do that digitally and create a strong sense of community. But I will say that that takes a skill set to be able to be vulnerable enough to share your story or tap into processing aspects of your life and how that translates into who you are now or how you operate or why you do the things or choose the things that you do. So I'm always very mindful of supporting the teams that I. That I come across with some storytelling guidance so that they can tap into and unpack, sure, some of the noise, but really get down to what did you actually learn and what do you want to share so that you can engage us into your passion, movement, vision, values? There's a powerful framework. Marshall Ganz, he's out of the Harvard Kennedy School, and his public narrative approach incorporates these aspects of how do you tap into your personal story, our story, and our story forward. So there's pieces that, you know, I've incorporated alongside that that allow us to, you know, even again, to your point, even if we are in a digital environment, there's still opportunity to build community and strengthen community within it. It starts with the willingness to do it.
- [24:17]
A
It starts with the willingness. Let's talk about burnout. I know that's a big topic that you tackle, that you write about and deal with in your business, but I think you take a different approach to it because you tackle the common cultural patterns, you know, in nonprofits that unintentionally drive burnout, rather than looking at it as, like a productivity thing. And our calendars are just too full. So can you talk about that approach and what that means for nonprofit leaders?
- [24:47]
B
Sure. I talk about this because I have experienced it. So I'll share briefly, kind of my experience with burnout. And it was probably within the last three or four years, but I was then working for a national nonprofit in service of our communities to empower leaders of color to have positions of influence within the education sector. And it became very gray for me because I am also that person that I was supporting. Right. Like, I'm also that bipoc leader in the space of education. So the work became very, very personal to me. It was great because it was like I was bringing work home. I was taking my personal identity into the work because that's a part our approach that we had to begin with. And after a few years, I started to realize that I wasn't taking care of myself. What that felt like and look like was just a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, a lot of lack of sleep, not the best eating habits, impacting my relationship with my partner, bringing those conversations to the house and having that discourse, it just was not healthy. So first things first is listen to those things. Because we oftentimes psych ourselves out and say, oh, well, it's just that time of year, or we're just in that season, or we're just, we just need to get through this project or get through this cycle. And then things are going, oh, we.
- [26:15]
A
Just need to get through this week. Yeah, I say that every week. I just need to get through this week. And then next week we'll calm down.
- [26:20]
B
Yeah, but we don't listen to our bodies enough to actually do something different by. And that's. That's unfortunate. So my experience at that point was like, I had to step back. I resigned from my role. I took four months off, and I was on this healing journey to find myself. Part of that journey was starting Rooted Life. Part of that journey was also reclaiming my time and reclaiming how I dictate my time and within it, dictate how I want others to treat me as well. A lot of it was very inward facing. A lot of it did come from tapping into different passions that I haven't really explored, whether that was cooking or hiking or painting, outlets, essentially. Outlets that would allow me to express my creativity that lives within all of us. Honestly, we just oftentimes don't really tap into it. So caveat. We incorporate a lot of that into our practice at Rooted life, too, because we all are creative people, so we bring that sense of fun and joy within it. But to that point, like, if we're not listening or taking care of our bodies, we're going to feel a burnout. Burnout is more prevalent now than ever, especially for. For millennials. We don't know how to not work. Sometimes I even tell myself, do as I say, not as I do, because I. I still find myself sometimes in those cycles of the rat race and need to always come that, come back to that point of recenter and reclaiming. So I think our approach to it is grounded in listening to our bodies, listening to our mind, listening to one another, but within it, elevating that, elevating that with the people that we come across or the people that we have to work with, because oftentimes there's somebody else in your circle, in your immediate environment that's also facing something that they're working through. And it's probably just putting on this facade to just do the thing and not be questioned and not be undermined and not be considered or looked at as weak. But, you know, I'm also. I have this lens of. Of I deserve to. I deserve to not. That is also okay. And I deserve joy. And if we're not getting that in our spaces, then what are we doing right?
- [28:30]
A
Someone really needed to hear that today. I think.
- [28:36]
B
We are not alone. You know, I'm an advocate of therapy as well. I feel like therapy, especially for communities of color, is like a taboo. We grow up saying, like, well, hearing. Honestly, we grew up hearing, we'll just pray on it or just brush yourself off and, you know, pick Yourself up and keep going. And we don't really have the spaces to unpack and process oftentimes. So within it I, I'm very mindful of across individual. I'm not a therapist either, but I'm, I'll help you and I'll guide you and I'll challenge you and we can heal together through it, probably. And that's, that's kind of our approach to, to burnout and how people can hopefully navigate it. But being selfish is okay.
- [29:19]
A
Yes, yes.
- [29:22]
B
100. I am okay taking my days off that I have allocated. I'm okay with even in partnership saying, hey, I need a weekend trip alone in the mountains so I can go hike and be and feel tiny, tiny in relation to this vast world that we live within. And you know, those are the spaces in which I want to choose me because they allow me to be better by, for myself, for my partner, for my family and in the, in the work, because the work can get heavy and we know that.
- [29:53]
A
Oh, the work is so heavy. What is one mindset shift that you wish every non profit leader could make today or would make today?
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B
There's a lot, but one of them is teach others how to treat you. It's probably one of the biggest ones because especially for leaders in this space, whether it's via colleagues or the communities that we serve, it's so easy to become yes people. It's so easy to become the individuals that will bend backwards for others, the people that will reply to the email at 10pm in the evening. And if we're not able to understand how we operate best and teach others that then we're just gonna find ourselves in burnout. We're gonna find ourselves in the sense of disconnection, in the sense of lack of joy, the sense of lack of care. But slowly I think that approach also helps the larger picture. Because if you're able to do that, especially if you're a leader in this space, then slowly you're also modeling it for your team or the audience that you serve so that they too can take care of themselves and so that they too can choose themselves. I am fortunate enough to have worked with organizations that are ready to be vulnerable and are ready to take on some of these practices not only for sustainability, but also to have that mindset shift as an organization versus as an individual. Right. So the other thing is like, you can't be the only one that's doing it. Challenge others, bring others alongside you, practice it so that you have some shared accountability, so that when they do get that 10pm email, they're like, oh wait, I thought you didn't work at 10pm Right? And then slowly. That's how behaviors change as well. But it takes process. It takes process, it takes time. It's not as easy to come by, but the end result can be life changing if you do that.
- [31:52]
A
I know so many of my listeners are going to want to connect with you and stay connected and learn more about the rooted life. So can you share maybe where you are online and the website and how people can get in touch with you?
- [32:05]
B
Absolutely. Thank you again, Julia. So, folks, I'll share one last thing. Choose you. Choose you. Choose you. No one else is going to choose you unless you choose yourself. And if you do it, you're going to be better by everybody else around you. You can reach me and find me on our website@therootitlife.org that's T H E R O O T-L I F E.org or you can reach me on LinkedIn. DrickRodriguez. You can probably find me via the joyous profile picture that I have of myself laughing. I feel like we need more of those on LinkedIn versus I know we need happier photos, but folks are welcome to connect on E. I'm here as a champion, as an ally, as a resource, as an advocate, but honestly, as a fellow member of each of your communities, wherever you find yourself, know that there's people always trying to do better by.
- [33:01]
A
I love that. So inspiring. Thanks so much for being here. This was really wonderful conversation.
- [33:08]
B
Julia. Gracias.
- [33:16]
A
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.