A (3:34)

Eldest daughter, I'm telling you, eldest daughter, it's a thing.

B (3:40)

Yeah. I came back to St. Louis and while I was, you know, helping my mom and supporting my family, decided that I would say, and I, instead of law school, I would get a master's degree, which I wound up doing here at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. And I did mine in public policy administration. And they had a local government track and they had a nonprofit management and leadership track. And both of those sounded really exciting to me. So I did both. I'll be honest. I thought I was going to go into sort of like city government, city management work. And then as I started to familiarize myself with the nonprofit sector, felt really sort of called to be in that space. So wound up taking this sort of, you know, like, entry level role, working for actually an internationally known nonprofit, doing some fundraising work. And so my like, foot in the door sort of moved me from like retail sales to fundraising. And then sort of very quickly, I don't know, found a home in like, the people part of this work. Like a lot of folks think about assets of organizations as only financial. And I've really found myself so deeply connected to the people assets in our community that, yeah, I started, oh, gosh, longer ago than I want to say in, um, 2015, had the opportunity to take a stab at consulting. I thought that that would be a time limited gig while my kids were little. And now my company, Gladiator consulting, celebrated its 10th anniversary in August.

A (5:23)

Congratulations.

B (5:25)

Yeah, yeah. And the work really has expanded beyond sort of fund development and organizing money into strategy, into risk assessment, into org culture, into leadership development. So a lot more of the people parts of the work.

A (5:42)

I have my master's in public administration and I had thought that I would go into law and probably into local government as well, so. And I know I told you this before when we, when we first talked, but I'm on the school board, so. Yeah, congratulations for running for public office. So what inspired you to take that leap into political leadership? You talk about change making, finding your place in the movement, and now you're like, walking the walk, and I love it. So what inspired you?

B (6:14)

So here's what I'll say. I turned 40 a few years ago and decided to go to law school. And so in 2022, got into Washington University School of Law and don't want a jd, don't want to litigate, but had really gotten to this point, point in my professional career of understanding working with nonprofits, that these organizations right now sort of make up the social safety net. They fill the gap for a lot of places where our public services fall short, but the system isn't exactly set up for them to solve the problems that we're navigating over, you know, decades. And so I really wanted to understand more about how policy impacts the work of the nonprofit sector, how we can engage in that work, and then also ultimately how nonprofits can do a better job of not being so siloed, how we can work more collaboratively, collaboratively together, thinking about our resources in a different way so we can actually start to do work towards our vision and not just the. This sort of mission, like harm reduction work that, while it is wonderful, keeps us in a place where there are still problems to solve. So that was. That was sort of the beginning, but then people were like, okay, so you went to law school. Like, what are you going to do with that now? And I was like, I don't really know. I'm not sure. And then over the course of the last year, have really started to realize that there are very frayed relationships between the nonprofit sector and the governance sector, that there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of scarcity. There's a lot of misunderstanding. And for most of my life, even since I was a little girl, I have really sought to be a bridge between people that either don't understand each other, not communicating well with each other. And so I'm really looking at this opportunity not only as a way to represent the constituents that are living in District 79 here in Missouri, but also to look at the organizations that are in this footprint, look at the ways in which they've been orienting their resources to support these residents and get nonprofits, at least at a state level, more resources for them to continue to do this work as we really sort of figure out what's happening in a. In the national and international landscape.

A (8:54)

I have, I think having those perspectives brings such a unique value, especially to the state of representatives, because it's, it's. Or you know, to any political position because I think a lot of politicians or, or people that are elected officials might not understand what it's like working in a nonprofit or working with a nonprofit and the value that the sector provides, but also how under resourced and really undervalued we are devalued systematically. So I think having that perspective and understanding that non profits are not just here for like a cash grab and like to get grants, like we're actually really doing transformative work and having that perspective of law and having worked in nonprofits and being an entrepreneur and being a mom and being all the things, I actually really think that melds very well into having like a well rounded perspective. And we need more, we need more of that because we've had, I hope so. Same old for so long.

B (9:56)

I hope so and you know, we'll see what happens. I had a very fantastic representative in my district who is now term limited. Those are laws in Missouri. And so, yeah, I am throwing my hat in the ring. I do think that in a representative democracy, your elected officials should make sure that they are doing what their people, their constituents ask of them. And in Missouri, our voters made the decision to approve paid sick leave last November for hourly workers. They also made the decision to overturn our state's abortion ban, the first red state to fully overturn a constitutional abortion ban. And our elected legislators aren't interested in upholding either one of those decisions from the public. So they made the decision to put some of those things back on the ballot in 2026. And that, that for me is here too far. I need my children to have more rights than, you know, their parents or grandparents did. And it, it feels really critical to represent everybody. Right. I don't have to agree with you. We don't have to be on the same side of the.

A (11:05)

Yeah, but respect the rule of law. Respect laws that were passed by the people.

B (11:11)

Exactly. So yeah, I am, I'm throwing my hat in this ring. People have, you know, asked me, you know, where I think it goes from here and I don't know. I don't. There's no grand vision. There is a. When I think about movements, everybody has a place. There are going to be some people who need to continue to do the work that they're doing in their organizations, in their communities, with their children, at their churches. There are going to be people who realize that they're going to have to change jobs or use their volunteer time differently or start having different conversations with their children. Like I am a person who looked at the resources that I have and the reputation that I have in my community. And jumping, you know, into this opportunity felt like the right step for me. But it also means that there are places that I have functioned where I'm going to have to step back. And I hope that that means. And that gives the opportunity for people who have been waiting to jump in, who've been waiting to find their place to be like, yes, this is the thing that I can try. Right. Because when I say no, or when I say I'm going to shift, that gives another person the opportunity to say, now it is my time and now it is my turn.

A (12:28)

I love that. I love that perspective. Um, also now, I really. I appreciate moms especially, but also working parents getting into public service.

B (12:41)

Yeah.

A (12:42)

But I mean, come on, we're all so busy. I just think that. And also, we just had a vacancy on the school board here and we had applications and it was three working moms with young kids, of course, because if you really have the time to dedicate. But they're amazing and they are so qualified and wonderful and we were very lucky. But I just thought is. I mean, I hope that this is who's going to start running the world around the world, behind the scenes, but.

B (13:11)

I hope that Running the world. Right. Yeah. The. Like, if you want something done, give it to a working mom.

A (13:17)

Oh, yeah, absolutely, 100%. So, speaking of movements, you are a member of the Community Centric Fundraising Global Council. How do you see this movement evolving? Like, what excites you about it? What challenges still lie ahead? Yeah.

B (13:35)

So for, you know, members of this community who don't know. Community Centric Fundraising was a movement that was founded by a group of people of color fundraisers in Seattle who were sort of meeting regularly to talk about what they felt like was working and what really wasn't working in the sector. And. And in 2020, launched a platform. You can visit communitycentricfundraising.com or.org and they have. There are 10 sort of governing principles in this space of how do we truly, I think, in this sector, move away from the idea of charity and handouts to systems change, justice and liberation, which are really big words, really big concepts. And so over the course of the last five years, you know, we've seen this community grow from eight people of color in Seattle to tens of thousands of people across the globe who are coming together in their own communities and forming these really organic chapters who are, you know, coming and presenting at conferences like AFP's Icon or Lead, or, you know other ADR and all these other spaces and who are really trying to figure out what is, I would say, sort of what is the parallel movement to trust based philanthropy or what is the parallel movement to like restorative or justice based philanthropy. And so really right now, what is, I think, inspiring me is that people are getting curious about how do I not just care about the values, how do I not just embrace the principles, but how do I start to do those things in practice so I can get comfortable with the behaviors of like, what change looks like. And so for some people, that might look like pushing back on a grant maker who has a really strict application that doesn't really align with what an organization might need, you know, for other, for other people, it looks like having a community oriented fundraising event where the revenue supports a bunch of different organizations that are aligned around a cause. Right. It's sort of getting us out of these like self imposed silos and really thinking about how our resources move us all forward. Not just, you know, sort of one cause, one organization, one, you know, person with the platform. So, so I'm really, I continue to be really excited about the conversations that are happening around community centric fundraising. And I think that for better or for worse, 2025 has sort of, I think, accelerated some change in our sector because of the uncertainty. And when we feel like we're in crisis, we have an opportunity to build something for the next normal that we find ourselves in. And I deeply believe that community centric fundraising is the baseline, is the foundation for how philanthropy in North America and the globe is going to have to look in this next iteration of charitable giving.

A (17:11)

How do we get nonprofits to shift their mindset and practices toward a more community rooted approach? Because we're so focused on the donors, the hero, you know, traditional donor centric models.

B (17:27)

Yeah, I mean, you know, it takes more than one person, it takes more than one try. We get calls all the time from folks that are like, we want you to come make a community centric development plan for us. That's great and you can certainly have that. But that, that for me is not the starting line. The starting line is really looking at your fundraising operations, looking at your development operations, identifying what opportunities you might have or where you've been doing the same thing over and over again. That has not necessarily impacted your organization in a positive way, and then testing some different things and some different messages. And so for some organizations that's been putting a different lens on their events, like, is it really worth having an event that we're paying $50,000 for that. We make $60,000 on it. @ the end of the day, you know, we've done like $10,000. Right.

A (18:26)

Like, not let alone staff time and.

B (18:29)

Everything else, which, you know. Yeah. At the end of the day, it's probably a wash. Are there different ways that we engage and build our community? And, you know, you can read the generosity Commission released a report last fall that said that people are desperate for a third space right now. Like, we went through a pandemic. We're back in our swing of our family life. We're back in the swing of our professional life. And like, we are missing this connection. Like, what if nonprofits were the space for people. Right. To re engage and build community? And that requires us to, like, not artificially separate our board and our community or our donors and our clients. Right. We get out of the way of gatekeeping and we let people build their relationships, which makes our work stronger.

A (19:20)

Yes.

B (19:21)

I think for a lot of organizations, there's some donor education. Right. There's some learning and unlearning. I think that most people don't understand or don't know that the laws and policies that govern the sector, they weren't created for nonprofit organizations to be successful. Those policies and laws were created by wealthy folks and powerful folks to protect wealth, to put wealth in a place where it couldn't be taxed. And so you have a sector that's working under policies and laws that weren't actually created for it to do its good work 100%. And so when we know that, we can start making different decisions about our resources and about our time and about how we're investing in and making change. And so for me, there are thousands of entry points into making your organization more community centric or more equitable. You just have to assess where you are and pick. And pick the one thing. Right. Try the one thing. And bring some board members along in the trying, and bring some program staff along in the trying and bring some of your clients along in the trying. Right. Because it is. Feel that it is a culture of philanthropy, but where philanthropy means its root cause, which is love of humankind. Right. Like that's what we're trying to do.

A (20:53)

Exactly. I really would love to see more collaboration, genuine and authentic collaboration amongst non profits across the sector. Across sector. Across verticals.

B (21:06)

Yeah.

A (21:07)

In the community. Because I really believe a rising tide lifts all ships. I think that nonprofits tend to get very hung up on their little piece of the pie and that there's not going to be enough pie. And then the reality is there's billions of dollars. And, you know, GivingTuesday just came out with that Data Commons report that says $52 billion are being left on the table because we're not encouraging recurring giving, we're not asking people, and then we're only raising money at year end. Like, there's so many ways that we can spur generosity and spur giving, but we keep thinking like, oh, no, it's. We're competing with, you know, the library or the food bank down the street, when in reality, we could be all doing amazing work together.

B (21:54)

We've got to let that go. Our. Our mutual friend, Tim, San Antonio. I had the opportunity to be a part of generosity exchange last week, and one of the things that their data tells them is that most people consider themselves generous, but a nonprofit isn't the core focus of that generosity. We are apart. We are in the world of generosity, but we actually do not make it easy for people to be generous. And since this is something I said last week, like, generosity actually doesn't wait for permission, if as a nonprofit, I'm not making it easy, people are going to continue to be generous. And, and that's wonderful. And we want that. And also we're not going to be the ones that experience it.

A (22:45)

No, completely. Completely. I love that research. I think that we're generous in so many different ways. I honestly think. I mean, it's so funny because people, you know, I'm thinking, like, I'm volunteering at Pumpkin Fest tomorrow, and that's my, you know, that's part of my generosity along with giving money. Or I'm donating to a friend's dance, you know, dance trip. They want to go on a trip. And so there's so many ways that people are being generous, but non profits are very stuck on, like, is it a major gift? Is it a grant? Is it.

B (23:21)

Oh, my gosh.

A (23:22)

And like, they need a label for it rather than understanding that one act of generosity kind of spurs other acts of generosity.

B (23:29)

So we, we get so upset with funders for making us jump through these, like, grant writing, grant reporting hoops. And then we turn around and do the exact same things with our data and our donors.

A (23:47)

We're the definition of insanity around you.

B (23:49)

We are. We are. I even, you know, I remember my. Actually, this was in my 20s, and I went to an event where, you know, they're, they're trying to build up their major gift society. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, like, I could make a major gift to this Organization based on what they, you know, decided was a major gift. But I would have to make my. I would have to make a pledge and I'd have to pay it monthly. So I raised my paddle and I'm like, oh my God, I made my first major gift. I'm so excited. And I go, you know, to check out. And this poor woman is like, we don't have a system to like, take that. And so I'm not even kidding you. We had a standing appointment on the eighth day of the month where she would call me and she would take my credit card information over the phone so I could pay down my pledge. And this was like within the last 10 years. I want you to know that. And then she left that job. And there was not another person who would do that. So I actually never got. I never got to fulfill that pledge. And I don't. No one else from that organization ever actually reached out to me to continue to make that gift. So.

A (25:10)

Wow, Talk about leaving money on the table. Like, literally actually.

B (25:13)

Like literally actually. And it's like things like that that I'm like, we make it so hard for people to be generous with us and we actually don't. It doesn't have to feel that way. It doesn't have to be that way.

A (25:27)

Talking about things don't have to be that way. Let's talk about social media. Okay. So, yeah, I love that you agreed to be the keynote November 18th to kick off the 2025 Nonprofit Social Media Summit sponsored by Neon1. So thank you, Neon1. And let me put the little link link up there if you want to register. So my question is. Well, let me tell you a little bit about my vision for the summit. I talked a lot with, with Tim about this, so our mutual friend tim from the N1. But how do we connect and build community digitally in a world that's literally profiting off our division? Like, the algorithms are designed to profit off engagement, which means enragement, basically. The more angry you are, the more comments come flying at you, whether good or whether bad, that's going to get engagement. And that's going to be the, you know, that's what the algorithms see. So I think for me, I do believe there's still value in building community online and there's still value in using social media, especially for advocacy and educational purposes. Yeah. But, you know, while it can, it can both amplify and distort these messages around equity and justice. So I mean, this is the million dollar question. How can nonprofits in Europe in Your opinion? Use it responsibly and effectively in this current climate.

B (27:06)

Yeah, I mean, so I think the first thing, and this is something that I practice, this is something that I have had to encourage my children to practice as they have become. Social media users are a. We need to be curious about everything we see, even if we agree with it, even if it makes us feel good. We need to be curious about where it came from, what the genesis of that information is. And I. That that feels deeply central. The other thing is that I find very often that people are using social media to sort of push their message out and push out what they want people to know. Yeah. When potentially the biggest asset is to be able to listen and to observe and to ask for feedback and to learn. And so I think we should be using the platforms to gather information from people who are following our work, from people who have chosen to sign up for people who we are getting. Right. Shoved into their algorithm. Okay, great. Now I need to understand why. And I don't think that we can. I don't always think that nonprofits are the only experts in what does our community need to know about our organization. Right. Like, there are so many other ways for us to share information, to cross post information, to pull in other kinds of experts.

A (28:38)

Right. And why don't we just deposit our own stuff, like the be all, end all expert on food insecurity or literacy or domestic violence, whatever it is. I agree.

B (28:50)

And so, you know, I often really. We encourage our clients from a, you know, ethical storytelling perspective to, to, you know, who, who are you working with? Like, who have you learned from? How has your nonprofit impacted a particular person, a particular, you know, human in your community? And we actually have a client here in St. Louis that's in the food justice space, does farming, does urban farming. And she sort of went through this, like, back and forth, like, what do I say? How do I do this? And at the end of the day, the most meaningful opportunities for her were first to do sort of a, you know, like a Humans of New York, Humans of St. Louis style set of photos and interviews with people.

A (29:39)

Oh, cool. Well, we know people love it. Just took over Grand Central. Yeah. Like, so popular. It's a great platform.

B (29:48)

Right. But it, there was no, like, here's the narrative we're selling. It was like, these are the people.

A (29:55)

That stories are real people.

B (29:57)

What do you want to tell us? What do you want to share? Right. And so there's that piece of it. And then the other thing they heard was, you know, this organization does farming in urban communities. They created a zine which they printed some copies of and they did a digital format so people who live in the city, like me, who don't have lots of land, can learn what I'm supposed to plant, how I plant it, how I take care of it, whatever. And so for the first time ever in my life, I planted garlic because you're supposed to plant garlic in October and it grows through that, you know, and so I'm gonna have like garlic apparently. But so that zine though, it's, it's, it's not a fundraising ask, it's not a fundraising appeal. But the people who have learned from that felt so excited that they were compelled to engage online. They were compelled to make a contribution. And so the things that we've told ourselves about how we ask and when we ask and who we ask, like the world is changing, friends. And I think that our digital native friends, whether they're millennials, Gen z or my 10 year old, is deeply philanthropic and deeply Gen Alpha, like looking for different things. And we need to get curious about what those things are and start to try to do things differently with these platforms. We don't, we do not have to, you know, be slaves to the algorithms. Friends like that we don't have. That does not have to be our story.

A (31:40)

No, we absolutely don't. And I completely agree with you that it's the value add that's going to win the day. It's providing that something that I couldn't get anywhere else. I think a good example is the Mighty Girl Foundation. So Mighty Girl is. I just love them forever. Actually, when my daughter was a lot smaller, although there's still resources for teenagers, I would use it. It was like how to find not sexy Halloween costumes for like an 8 year old girl because it's pretty impossible. If you go to the Halloween store, how to find something that's like not a princess or not like a sexy police officer, like for a tween, it's, it's insane. And then also how to find books. Now there are a lot of books with empowering female protagonists, but I even feel like maybe 10 years ago there weren't as many. And I think finding them and, and finding also just like diverse perspectives, like I didn't just want like white girls, I know I wanted like, I don't know, something different. It's harder to find. Mighty Girl was such a great resource and they provided Q and A's. They would do like book month stuff and they would do Q and A'S on their social media, you know, answering questions. And then, of course, when they had their fundraising appeal, I was much more inclined to participate. I remember giving Tuesday campaign they had that was fantastic. And I said, you know what? I've never donated to them before, but I use their resources, so I should probably make a donation. So I think we do need to. We need to get into this give mindset on social media rather than, like, what can we extract out of it? Like, what can we squeeze from it? Like, from a stone. That's what I worry about a lot with my clients and people that I talk to that are doing social media. Also, just because nonprofits are so stretched thin under resourced bootstrapping, so they're like, oh, I got to put up a post, and if it doesn't raise 500, then I can't do Facebook anymore.

B (33:43)

And I've, like, failed. Right?

A (33:44)

I mean, it's hard to play the long game.

B (33:47)

We work with organizations who, like, the EDs, are still doing social media because they don't have a staff person to do it right. Or maybe there's like a volunteer on the board that will, like, do stuff for them. I'm not a fan of saying, if you don't do it well, don't do it. Like, I. When I say be curious, I also mean take risks. Like, you need to be trying things. Because if you don't know what your audience is going to respond to, then I'm going to tell you. Maybe, maybe take a pause. Maybe take a pause. But, like, you also want to learn what people aren't super into, right? And what happens in that case. I actually just. I ran into a colleague earlier this week at a networking event, and it reminded me of a story that happened here again a few years ago. An organization that does foster pet adoption named a dog that they had brought in after a prominent black woman. And the community in which this organization was rooted said, hey, like, we understand how you may have thought that this was, like, fun and honoring her, but as a black woman living in this community, seeing you name a dog after this woman feels a little not great. And this organization wound up using their social media not only to apologize, but to. To create a space for people to learn about how they came to the decision they made when they heard from public feedback that it really wasn't a great decision and how they decided to change it. So the transparency of, like, okay, we tried a thing, we got it wrong. We're going to be accountable to you all, and we want you to learn with US was a huge opportunity for this organization to build itself community virtually. And not only was it an example of like, what not to do, but then it also became an example of what you can do and how you can use even those really crappy situations to strengthen. Right. The trust that your online community has in your organization.

A (36:07)

Exactly. Trust and affinity is everything. I mean, trust is fully decimated across the sector. I mean, it's just trust in nonprofits is down, I think a lot due to the rhetoric coming out of the right wing media and the federal government right now. Unfortunately, I think it was down before, but I think it's being, it's. We're getting, we're getting slandered and pummeled and, you know, funding cut. And I'm thinking, you know, it's just so brutal. A lot of organizations like, near and dear to my heart, like cancer research, you know, being, thinking like, how is.

B (36:47)

Heart disease in women? Yep. Also being cut.

A (36:51)

Oh, right, right. For you. Just unbelievable. Well, we, we're gonna wrap up here. This has been fantastic. What do you hope people take away from your, your keynote? I don't want you to give away maybe too much, but like, what are some things maybe people should be thinking of getting curious about? What are some things you hope that people bring the energy that they bring to the summit?

B (37:18)

Yeah. Well, I will say I hope that people are deeply excited. The speaker lineup that you have curated is incredible. There are so many people that I know and respect, and then there are people that I don't know and I'm sorry, so excited to learn from them. And it's hard for me to feel that kind of excitement these days, like, because I feel like there's this drumbeat of like, we're getting it wrong, do it different, you know, so I'm feeling really energized. You know, for me, it's, I'm gonna, you know, ask, pose, pose the same question. I think for our community, for the audience that I have posted myself, is when the world is changing quickly and I don't have all the information that I would like to have to be able to make decisions. How do you move forward? How do you take the best of yourself and pour it into the community in ways, in ways that will make an impact. Right. Like, how do we figure out what incremental change looks like? How do we get brave? How do we get uncomfortable? How do we stay in a relationship with people we don't like? But we need to move forward together. Right?

A (38:28)

Like, I need, I need to know that.

B (38:30)

Yeah. Me and you both, we're going to explore it together. It's great. But that's really, you know, my challenge. Like, we're not going back. I don't think that there is a fix right. For where we are and in that moment right where we can't go back and we can't fix it. It requires all of us to build something new. And that only happens when we decide to do it together. Right. And everybody again knows, like, this is my role in the change that I'm trying to build. So that's what I'll be talking about through the lens of, you know, current events and things like that.

A (39:09)

So I'm so excited. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and expertise. I just, I just love learning from you. I loved your talk with Vu Voule who's just. If you've no one. If people have not heard of Voule V U L E. Check. Check out Vu. Also Vu's Instagram. The scary.

B (39:36)

If you need, if you need a laugh, if you need a little non profit, pick me up. You need to go read that costumes. Vu also has a non profit horror stories. I think.

A (39:48)

Oh, I know when he does a.

B (39:49)

Little pumpkin and he tells them. Yeah, like these.

A (39:53)

It's really funny.

B (39:54)

Yeah.

A (39:55)

For all nonprofits, you need to follow who on Instagram. I was thinking also, you know, your talk at Generous Generosity Exchange.

B (40:04)

Thank you.

A (40:05)

That was phenomenal. So I'm just so lucky that, that we get to have you at the summit, but just so lucky to call you a friend. So.

B (40:11)

Yeah.

A (40:11)

Thank you again, Rachel. How can people connect with you and get in touch with you in Gladiator Consulting?

B (40:17)

Yep. So I would say we have a fantastic newsletter. I know y' all don't want to call up your inboxes, but I promise you it's worth your time so you can sign up for that gladiator RDS calm. You can also follow us on LinkedIn. You can follow us on Instagram at Consulting Gladiator. And you are more than welcome to follow me. You can search me and I will tell you that I have, I have a personal account. So if you want to see pictures of the things that I cook, cooking is like my hobby. You can follow me there, see pictures of my kids. I love cooking. And there is also a public that is now a campaign account. So you can choose to do what you want.

A (40:59)

How do we find out more about your campaign? Do you have a website?

B (41:02)

So Rachel d' Souza for Mo is where you would go to find that out. And I will just be very clear that my campaign and my business are very separate. There is no. You're not endorsing me if you, you know, search for information about my campaign or you decide to support. Gladiator and my campaign are very separate. So no, no worries that you're breaking any scary lobbying or electoral politics laws if you decide to check it out. Okay.

A (41:31)

Thank you so much again.

B (41:34)

Of course.

A (41:34)

I hope you have a great weekend and we'll see you very soon.

B (41:37)

You too. I can't wait.