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- [00:00]
Julia Campbell
Imagine nonprofit work transformed by purpose built tools. That would mean less guessing and more connecting, less admin and more impact, less stuck and more go. With the giving platform built for purpose, you don't have to imagine Bloomerang can help you raise more funds, retain more donors, save more time and grow stronger relationships with your supporters so you can spend time on what matters most, your your mission. Want to see how over 20,000 nonprofits are using Bloomerang to raise, retain and recruit more supporters? Well, take a free on demand tour of the giving platform today. Go to jcsocialmarketing.com/bloomerang. That's jcsocialmarketing.com forward/b L O O M E R A N G okay, on to the show. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi everyone, this is Nonprofit Nation with your host, Julia Campbell. Thrilled to be here today with you. Whatever you're doing, the title of this episode and the title of the book we're going to discuss is Fundraise Like a fifth Grader. Something that I really love the idea of. And the question we're going to ask, what if fundraising was as simple and Fun as a 5th grade project? What if it was recess and not homework? And in today's episode, I sit down with Patrick Kirby, founder of Do Good Better Consulting and host of the official Do Good Better podcast, to talk about his newest book, which is taking the Amazon charts by storm. Fundraise. Like a fifth grader, Patrick brings his signature energy and humor to share why embracing a childlike approach to fundraising can lead to big wins for nonprofits. So, Patrick, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you here.
- [02:46]
Patrick Kirby
I have been like on pins and needles all day waiting for this. I ditched out of a meeting early just to get like mentally clear and I'm super excited to be on your show. Thank you so much for having me.
- [02:57]
Julia Campbell
Nice. We need that kind of energy. So can you share a bit about your journey in the Nonprofit World. I know you've been a development director from your bio. And then sort of what led you to do what you're doing now?
- [03:10]
Patrick Kirby
Yeah, sure. So I graduated with a politics degree. Cause that made sense.
- [03:14]
Julia Campbell
I had a journalism degree, so.
- [03:15]
Patrick Kirby
Yeah. So I actually ran for office right after graduation. I ran for the House of Representatives. I got my butt whipped, like, horribly. And for you, though? Yeah. But I raised more money than I was legally allowed to spend in a campaign race in Minnesota. Like, they had a cap on it. So I'm like, I'm a terrible politician. I might be a good fundraiser. And I've been doing that ever since. So I worked at my old high school. I did events and alumni stuff. I went. My first big kid job was working at the Cystic Fibrosis foundation out of the Twin Cities. And then I got recruited to work at the Ann Carlson center, which is this wonderful facility and school and acute hospital for kids and young adults with severe developmental disability and delays like the ones who should not be alive, but they are for the grace of God and miracle of science. And it was then where I'm like, I am obsessed with fundraising. I'm obsessed with major gifts. And I got a chance to mentor a lot of smaller nonprofits who just didn't really know what they were doing. And at some point in time, I'm like, this could be a job. Like, there's no job. I have to make one up. And then I did it about seven and a half years ago. I just made up do good, better consulting. And I now work with small, medium sized nonprofits to help them raise more money. And it's been a fun journey for 20 plus years. In the trenches with the nonprofit crew.
- [04:31]
Julia Campbell
Wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. I've been consulting and I've had my own business for 15 years. We were just talking about how fast time goes and how fast this year has gone, but congratulations. That's incredible. So.
- [04:43]
Patrick Kirby
No, it's awesome.
- [04:44]
Julia Campbell
Yeah, it's wonderful. So you are known for bringing humor and fun into fundraising. Not necessarily things we always think about and associate with fundraising. Why do you think that approach is so effective and how did it sort of become your signature approach?
- [05:01]
Patrick Kirby
I think I am a. I'm a fan of irreverence towards institutions. I think in general.
- [05:07]
Julia Campbell
I just talked about Weird Al before we hit record.
- [05:10]
Patrick Kirby
Correct.
- [05:10]
Julia Campbell
So we know that we are like kindred spirits there, 100%.
- [05:14]
Patrick Kirby
And I think people are so confined to what they think they should be doing that they're not creative or interested in looking outside of that box we talk about outside of the box all the time. So why not be the person who's overly enthusiastic, overly passionate and show you and not not tell, show that you can tell a great story. Be enthusiastic, be passionate about all these things that your organization has and to think a little bit differently and to say, hey, listen, the ivory tower book that you read about the capital campaign in a giant hospital thing from someone in you've never met before doesn't apply to my small and medium sized nonprofit. And I think we can do a little bit different. And I'm kind of just all about that as a thing. And again, if we can't laugh about this in our sector, we're going to get burnt out really quickly because this is. If it's not hilarious, it's sad. And I refuse to like be the Debbie Downer person. I'm not wamp wamping anything. I'm going to go and make a joke. I'm going to be a little bit less serious about a very serious business that we do, which is raising money for awesome causes.
- [06:14]
Julia Campbell
And we need a little bit of that levity, especially right now. So your, yeah, your new book, it just launched. It's called Fundraise Like a fifth Grader. It's pretty exciting. I said, it's taking Amazon by storm so you can find it there. What was the impetus for writing it? Like, what's the big idea behind it?
- [06:34]
Patrick Kirby
It was, I wrote a blog a couple of years ago about this and I just kind of put it to a side and I go, that might be a good book someday. But I didn't have the time to do it. And this past fall, my kids had to do a fundraiser for their school. And instead of selling pizzas or butter braids to make, you know, me buy new pairs of pants and exchange $20 bills with other people who were selling cookies and stuff, they decided to do a walkathon. And so they came back with a manila folder and a reason why they were fundraising. And my daughter, who was seven, was so excited about this, she ninja kicked her way out the front door and went down every single house and ask people for money with no script, no hesitation, no fear. And within like 30 minutes, she had 200 bucks. And I was like, what is going on? And then she raised so much money, she was the number one fundraiser in her class in second grade and then got to throw a pie in her principal's face as part of the celebration. So you think she's not hooked with awesome fundraising? Like, she's she's addicted now. And it got me thinking. I go, well, my fifth grader was doing it. My. My seventh grader was so, so. And I was like, what are they doing differently than we were? And I was like, okay, I gotta take a peek at this. And so what traits did they have going door to door and making calls and asking grandma and grandpa for a ridiculous amount of money, when they would say, no, but I'll give you this. And they just didn't care. They were just resilient and they were amazing. So I'm like, let's take traits that we once had as kids, that someone as an adult told us that we were being too much, we were too enthusiastic, we were too passionate, too creative, too, to do the things that we were supposed to do. And then we, like, as adults, like, be reclusive about how to embrace that. I said, let's get back to our childlike personalities and let's fundraise more effectively and have more fun doing it.
- [08:20]
Julia Campbell
Yes. I love that it's the intro to your book, and I've seen that too. I know when my daughter was younger, she would have a lemonade stand every year to raise money for the local animal shelter. And we would take all the money and we, you know, we would bring it there, but then we would also go and get blankets and. Or people would bring us, you know, in kind, donations that we could bring. And she just really got completely hooked on that. And I think the key is the passion, right? The key is that passion, that excitement, that interest, that connection to the cause, and that personalized sort of one on one, that innocence of this is. I'm passionate about my school. I really care about my school. I want to have great field trips, I want to have great extracurriculars. This is something that I want to invite the community to be in on with me. I love that. I think children really make fantastic fundraisers. What do you think happens to us as we get older? You know, how do we lose that sort of mindset that fundraising is something exciting and fun and. And wonderful?
- [09:28]
Patrick Kirby
Yeah. I think part of it is there's always something else to fundraise for. So, like, you get done with a campaign, you're like, okay, now what else? You're like, oh, God, you can't enjoy it. You don't. It's. It becomes almost mundane in a tradition.
- [09:40]
Julia Campbell
And you can't throw a pie in your principal's face.
- [09:44]
Patrick Kirby
I mean, you could. I mean, I think that actually might be like, an actual great fundraising plan. Like, if Your executive director gives you a budget, and you accomplish it, you should throw a pie in their face. I feel like that's a good reward. But I think, again, somebody tells us that we shouldn't be doing this, or we think that we shouldn't be embracing some of these qualities as adults. For some reason, we think it's more mature to not be bold or not to be. Be curious. And I think that's really the hiccup. I think as a fundraiser and as a nonprofit leader. And again, we don't celebrate a lot. You know, we don't. We. We are. And again, I'm in the Midwest, and so we're very. We don't want to talk about our wins because we think it's bragging. So it's even worse here where we don't like it because, like, oh, we had a really successful event, but we don't want to, like, let everybody else know about it. Like, yeah, you do. Your donors want to know. Your. Your supporters want to know. Your cheerleaders do. And so I think we lose it just from a couple of different things, but. And then we. And then we never get it back. We never reflect upon what made that work and what was fun running the lemonade stand, you know, doing the bake sale. And that attitude that we had, which was just like, I can't believe someone gave me money for this, which I think we need to go and pursue again.
- [10:51]
Julia Campbell
No, I think that's true. And you say the phrase the most dangerous phase phrase in fundraising is, we've always done it this way. So tell us about this. Tell us how we can sort of overcome this curse.
- [11:07]
Patrick Kirby
I've heard this more, you know, with board of directors.
- [11:10]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
- [11:10]
Patrick Kirby
Or like, a committee who's been doing an event for, like, 20 years that you're trying to, like, change up some minute, small, little thing. You're like, this might make it work more effectively. And someone clearly on the board would be like, that's the way we've always done it. If something grinds my gears more, I don't know what does more than that. It's just horrible. And it's not like you need to blow the whole thing up. And it's not like you need to just start from scratch. But this idea that you cannot do something different or the things that you can't do or re. Approach, that is the most insane thing ever, because you have to evolve. If you're not using AI in your nonprofit journey in some sort of manner, you're so far behind. If you are not engaging personally with thank you notes at your donors because you always just automatically sent an email instead. And it takes a little bit too much time to write a thank you. Like, you're doomed. So you have to evolve. And those that don't evolve are destined to fail. Or they're the ones that are so confused on why they're not raising money and that people aren't attracted to their cause anymore is because they haven't moved the needle in any direction because it's just got us here. Where we At 1984, this seemed like a great idea, and they just haven't bucked any of the system since.
- [12:22]
Julia Campbell
I see that a lot in my work in digital marketing because I've been doing this, like I said, for 15 years. I mean, digital marketing has been around for much longer than that. And people are still saying, well, we've always done it this way because this is how we've. We set up our email. We send four emails a year, we only post on Facebook, and we update our website once every five years. Something like that. And they still think they're like, ahead of the curve or that's like something that, you know, they're. They're staying on top of the trends here. And I think it's so important, you know, to be nimble and to pivot and to have new ideas. And it's sort of like, it's like that fifth grade mindset just to bring it back to that where if, you know your daughter, I feel like if she wasn't getting the response she wanted, I don't think she'd take it personally. She would just kind of say, oh, well, maybe I need to knock on the door after dinner, or maybe I need to ask for a different amount, or maybe I need to tell a different story, like pivoting. Not taking it personally, not getting upset, not saying, oh, I'm a failure because this one appeal didn't work. And I tend to think that a lot of development directors, you know, because they work so hard and it is their livelihood and they spend blood, sweat and tears on these appeals, tend to take things personally when they get rejected.
- [13:45]
Patrick Kirby
Right.
- [13:45]
Julia Campbell
But like, a fifth grader doesn't have that mindset.
- [13:48]
Patrick Kirby
No, again, I think that is part of that resiliency. It's part of that whole thing where you're okay, now I need to figure out what that no meant rather than, oh, my God, it's a no, and I'll never ask for that amount again. And it's this fear, this fear that if you ask for more money, Someone's going to punch you in the face. I've been doing this for 20 years. No one's ever punched me in the face for asking for a bunch of money. They've laughed, they've chuckled at the amount and then they've. And then they start thinking about like, wow, that was really nice of you that you think I have that, that type of capacity. But here's what I can do and here's what I'd be interested in. Rather than going, no. And you immediately go back into a shell. Well, my kid again, my kid on the COVID who is the smallest human being as a fifth grader ever. He's on the football team. Like, it's tackle football. He's the tiniest person, but he has an overconfidence with himself that I wish I had. Like, I feel like I'm confident. This kid blows my mind away with it.
- [14:40]
Julia Campbell
I love it.
- [14:40]
Patrick Kirby
You know, so he'll come to the sidelines. Dad, I think I'm like the best, like the second best player. I was like, okay, buddy. And again, when he gets tackled, he gets right back up because he wants to be a part of the team, he wants to make a difference. And he'll just scramble as fast as his little legs will go, but he never gives up. And I think we've lost again, like you were saying earlier, like, we've lost that in immediate rejection and we go back into a shell. And you cannot do that as a fundraiser. But we're, we're taught to like, okay, well then let's just send another email instead of having a face to face conversation. Cause it's a lot easier to be rejected with nobody opening up the email. Rather than my fear of someone doing a spit, taking coffee meetings, which is not gonna happen. It's just never, it never does.
- [15:23]
Julia Campbell
No, I exactly, I agree. I love that confidence. I also think just to continue with the sports kind of metaphors, it really is a testament to that coach and to the team as well. Because I know for my son, and you know, Forgive me, he's 10. He's not the most athletic, he's adorable and wonderful and he tries so hard. And it's the coach that gives that confidence when you fail, like to dust yourself off. So I think if you are alone, if you're a fundraiser, completely alone in an office, with no one else to cheer you on, with no one else to say, you know what? That meeting didn't go well. But here's what we're going to do for the next meeting, you know, shake it off. Like, let's just get the next one. I think that is so important. And I do feel like. Do you feel. And do you feel this too in your work with fundraisers that they tend to be. Maybe not tend to be, but a lot of fundraisers are maybe isolated or almost, I hate to say, like, set up to fail.
- [16:24]
Patrick Kirby
Yes, I think so. You think you're 100% correct on that. And I write about that in one of the chapters. Be a team player. Because fundraising is an absolutely lonely job because there's no one you can just complain to when something goes wrong. But then you've got your board, you know, you have your donors, you have your volunteers, and we don't think of them as people that we can lean on because we think we can't call the board to just have a casual conversation unless they're surrounded by yays or nays or, you know, a part of the, you know, actual official meeting. Yeah, you can. But we don't think we can call our volunteers because they've done too much already. Well, they want their perspective said. They want to get their opinion shared. So why don't we lean on them too? So we have options to get out of this loneliness, but we don't choose to use it because we have, again, these old parameters by which I can't call a board member about some silly little thing because that's not part of our plan, or my volunteers have done too much, so I can't ask them to be at this event or donate because they already give up their time. Well, they're already sold on what you do. Why would you not give them another opportunity to join your cool kids club and your team? So I'm 100% agreeing with you. I think it's a lot of self sabotage because we think we have done. We think we're worried about what could happen that never will, but we, like, never get over that fear hump and we don't go to the next step of like, all right, I'm just gonna ask em, what's the worst they could do, which is like, say no or I've got another idea for you.
- [17:52]
Julia Campbell
So you talk a lot about fundraising trends, and I know you are. You work with fundraisers. You're sort of in the trenches on the ground. What are some of the biggest trends that you see for 2025? Either good or bad.
- [18:07]
Patrick Kirby
I'll start with the good. I think in person, everything is bad, like really desperate. And I think the ones who do embrace in person Fundraising meetings, small or big, it doesn't really matter. People are desperate for human connection. I think we have now gotten off of the rails with I don't want to talk to you in a tweet and I don't want to talk to you online necessarily, unless it is a very personalized or hyper personalized experience. I bet you I see this a lot in digital marketing too, which is like, people want to feel connected and I think in person is going to be, you need to double, triple and quadruple down on all of that together. Now, the reason why is because of another trend, which is big donors are contracting the number of organizations they are giving to. They still give, but they're going to give. Instead of to seven or eight or nine that they might have given, they're going to give to like 2, 3 or 4. So your objective now as a fundraiser is to find your big donors and make sure that they feel loved and appreciated and connected with and communicated with transparently and authentic. Authentically. Because if you don't, if the only time that you're calling them or the only time you're asking them is to raise money, they're going to stop picking up the phone and they're going to go find another organization that's really linked in with their brain, their soul, their heart and what they're really passionate about. So those are the two really big things. And I will go back to the hyper personalized thing. I'll give this an example. I tell this in a lot of the talks. And so if somebody's listening to this and they've already heard this bit, good, because I want to hear you again.
- [19:33]
Julia Campbell
Which is people need to hear things several times.
- [19:35]
Patrick Kirby
I'm telling you, you never ask for a major gift unless you know the name of your donor's dog. Because if you're treating them like they're just an ATM and you don't know anything about them personally and their affection or their affinity for things, they're not going to give to you consistently. So asking questions and getting to the root of why they give and, and knowing them on a personal level will reduce the number of people leaving your organization, number one. But it gets you in front of them, it makes you more personalized. And again, if they, if you're curious and every time you call, you've got an interesting story or an impact number to share with them, and you're not constantly beating down their door asking them for more cash, they will pick up, but if you constantly ask them for money, they are not Going to pick up the phone and they're going to go find somebody else.
- [20:22]
Julia Campbell
Now, I love the titles of the chapters because it's. They're very much like, be something, be something. And I'm interested in exploring be Creative. Now, I think that. That for me, at least, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say that might be the most challenging for development directors, for fundraisers in the trenches. Not that they are not creative. All of you listening. You are very creative people. But the fires to put out and the phone calls to schedule and the newsletter needs to be written. And I know every time I'm talking to a client, the number one sort of challenge they have is time. Time and too many tasks and too many activities. So tell us about some of the strategies in that chapter and how we can be creative. Like a fifth grader.
- [21:15]
Patrick Kirby
I love it. So one of my favorite movies of all time is Billy Madison.
- [21:20]
Julia Campbell
Yeah.
- [21:21]
Patrick Kirby
There's a scene in Billy Madison when he's in kindergarten and he is. He shows his teacher that he drew a blue duck. And his explanation is, I've never seen a blue duck, so I drew a blue duck. And then he does. That's quack tastic. And I'm like, that line has stuck with me for two decades. And I think it's so important that I take a look at the Adam Sandler effect right there, which is you've never seen it and you decided to do it, and the consequence was great. You had a gold star for it. So. And I'll give you an example where I was doing fundraising at an organization and we had to put on a new event because that was one of our things. We needed to expand the amount of stuff. Every event that I have seen recently is a mirrored copy of another event that someone else is doing. And it's not fun. It's just the same old thing. There's nothing else new under the sun. Well, we had that same issue. So we're like, how do we do another gala, like event? But we put a different spin on it because in order for you to stand out in a very crowded space, I don't know how many nonprofits are in your neck of the woods. I would imagine it is in so many. Right. But even in North Dakota, where I'm at, we have less than three quarters of a million people, and we have 6,500 nonprofits serving the state. It's crazy. So how do you stand out in a crowd? Right? So one of our tactics was, okay, let's go and Play Mad Libs with an event. Right? I want to do a gala, but I want to do it casual. But I want to invite people who are attracted to high level events. So it has to be classy, but it also has to be accessible. And it also has to be during the summer because that's when we had the biggest dip in our fundraising. So we came up with suits and sandals. It was an event where you wear very formal on top, you wear shorts and sandals on top, or on the bottom, you go onto a beach where we have a gigantic tent and then white linen tables that you were sitting on the beach of a red reservoir in North Dakota where it's 100 degrees outside, it's 75 underneath the tent. And you are served a three course meal while you are sipping on wine, while the sun is setting in your formal wear on top and your casual wear on the bottom. It was the most ridiculous on paper thing ever.
- [23:27]
Julia Campbell
I love it.
- [23:28]
Patrick Kirby
But people were so curious about it. It sold out its first year. And that's why you have to be different. You have to do something that's more unique to grab the attention, because everybody right now has the attention span of fruit flies. You know this as everybody else does. So how to capture their attention. And once you grab them now, you can tell your story, your impact, the reason why you exist and the reason why you're trying to accomplish the things you're doing fundraising wise, so you can make an impact on your community better. That's the key. It does have to be a little bit of wild. And I want to give everyone permission to be a little crazy when you come up with an idea. And again, you're not going to destroy your mission by having a crazy rodeo plus ice cream eating contest event. No one's gonna. Your event's not gonna collapse because of that. Right. You just want to appeal to something. And I want to just give you permission to be creative. The same way that Adam Sandler draw a blue duck.
- [24:22]
Julia Campbell
Exactly. And it's important because what if the teacher said, we don't have blue ducks, you know, and that would just shape you forever.
- [24:30]
Patrick Kirby
Right? I know.
- [24:31]
Julia Campbell
And you'd be traumatized by that. And then the movie would not have. I just think it just so many formative experiences in our life where, you know, we don't color things that way, we don't do things that way. And you have to ask those questions, why? You know, why and why not? And that's the only way we're going to, you know, get out of our own get out of our own ways. So we've talked a lot about in person events, but what about technology? Because we know technology is really evolving. You touched on AI a little bit. So what is sort of your take on new technologies and even AI's role in nonprofit fundraising right now?
- [25:13]
Patrick Kirby
Well, I think it answers one of your earlier questions, which is how do we get the time back? I think using AI as a, as a, as a writing partner or a junior copywriter in your own office, I think you have to use something like a ChatGPT or a Gemini just to kind of get some ideas started so you don't have to waste a lot of time doing that. So I think there's some tasks that you can automate using a lot of AI, I would almost say. And a lot of people say, are they concerned that their jobs are going to get taken by robots? I'm like, no, they aren't. But if you don't know how to use it or you don't know how to implement it, yeah, you will. You'll be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI. So I would, I would experiment a lot. So think about maybe like an otter AI as a transcription service.
- [25:53]
Julia Campbell
Oh, yes, I use read AI, but.
- [25:56]
Patrick Kirby
All the time, right? So it, so it saves you so much time to take notes and meetings. But again, the reason is so that you can become a human and have face to face conversations. So if you have an app on your phone and you just download a transcription service that is capturing the essence and all the words you're saying, you put it in the middle of the table and now you can look at somebody across the table and have a really great conversation, be curious and enthusiastic about your mission without pausing and go, hey, hold on a second, I got to write that down because it ruins the flow. So now you take that transcription and you put it into a chatgpt or something like that and go, hey, summarize the meeting that we had and take out any particular notes that I or tasks or to dos that I promised I would do instantly within 12 seconds. You can do that without having to go through your notes and trying to transcribe your scribble that you clearly had or your coffee spilled on your notes and it's done and taken care of. And now you've got your time back. And I think it's just such a valuable resource for us who are trying to scramble to do everything where I think you just do the best of what you can, which is being a good human and being a relatable individual to try to make sure that your mission and your vision and your values are connected with another human being who's got the cash to make your dreams come true at your organization.
- [27:11]
Julia Campbell
So smart. I tell my students, my clients, to use AI like the intern, that you don't have to do the research for you to do, the initial pass through, to do the data analysis to do. I mean, I've had it make everything from a spreadsheet with contact information in it, you know, that only I can see. Or analyzing email subject lines to see do six words work better than 10, or what time of day should I be sending emails? I mean, just this. All of this research that can be done that can help you and assist you in your job that you don't need to do. I think what people hear when they hear AI is, oh, AI is going to write everything that I write or talk to my donors for me. And that's not the case. It's really just, you know, we all want a personal assistant, don't we? So let's have it be our personal assistant.
- [28:05]
Patrick Kirby
I know you can't use. I don't have the budget to hire somebody anymore because it's basically free. And I think that's such an advantage to the nonprofit realm. But again, we know this industry better than a lot of people do, which is we are very slow to adopt. And so we're very hesitant about trying new things because it might upset the apple cart and it's not the way that we've always done it. And so, again, embrace your kid, you know, your inner child of like, I don't like these rules and I'm going to try them anyway because I like to push buttons and I like to try to do new things because I want to learn new things. That's the really childlike quality that I want everyone to embrace because it's more fun that way, too. And then again, if it doesn't work, you tried it. And again, what did your parents always tell you? You're trying to, you know, have dinner. You're like, you have to take one bite. You have to try.
- [28:52]
Julia Campbell
Yes. Right.
- [28:53]
Patrick Kirby
Do the same thing with AI. Let's come full circle with that one.
- [28:57]
Julia Campbell
Yes. You have to at least take no, thank you bite. We used to call it a no, thank you bite. I love that we still do that. Oh, my gosh, the no, thank you bite. That is really funny. I love the no, thank you bite of fundraising.
- [29:10]
Patrick Kirby
This is perfect.
- [29:12]
Julia Campbell
What is your advice to a very enterprising, curious, bold, fearless, resilient fundraiser that might not have the support of their coworkers or their ED or their. Or their board. How do we continue to maintain our enthusiasm, but also, you know, convince others or show others that there are other ways to do things.
- [29:35]
Patrick Kirby
You'll always have a couple of champions, Right. So it's never going to be everyone against you. So in that scenario with, like, everyone hates what you're doing. Well, first of all, that might be a time for a new job. Number one, everyone hates. Yeah, get out of there immediately. But you're not. You're going to have one or two people who are just the Eeyores in the group, and they're like, well, that never worked anyway.
- [29:55]
Julia Campbell
Right? Always.
- [29:56]
Patrick Kirby
So find your champions and find the ones who love what you do and bring them into the fold. Right. So I like. I love asking if I don't have a really a good relationship or I need a better relationship with a donor. My go to is, hey, I got a question. Not asking you for money. I'd really love your perspective on this idea that I have because you're a valuable asset. You're a big cheerleader. You're a big supporter of our organization. Your views matter to me. As someone who's trying to do amazing fundraising work, I love your perspective. And most people love to give their opinions. They like to talk about themselves. They like to give their opinions. And so this is a really good door opener to build a relationship with somebody that might have a good amount of sway over the naysayers at the organization. Because if you get a really good stakeholder to buy in to a creative or a fun idea that you might have, it's a lot harder for those Eeyores to say no because they value the opinion and the resources of this individual. Yeah, of course it is. So you always have cheerleaders. I would lean in on them and ask them if they can participate and then get them to think about the same stuff that you are. Right. Hey, we gotta come up with a really creative way to do this. It's just an exercise that I want to have with you. Let's come up with the silliest things we can possibly come up with. And then they have fun doing it. And once they have fun doing it, they're going to want to keep doing it over and over again. And now you've got them hooked, and now you're going to be on your team. And then you really almost destroy any of the negativity with this positive momentum going forward. And I'll give you one Really a good example of this. I work with a client in a rural community that had a couple of naysayers on a, on a, on a park board that was just kind of like not being really nice about moving a project forward. Well, they voted on it. It went through and instead of waiting, published a full page ad thanking the community for the support, did a whole social media campaign lifting up the community on making this project a reality. And they killed everybody with kindness to the point where you can't have any backsies, because they just did. And everyone is now so excited about this going forward, they took the high road. They took it immediately. And then it just dissolved all dissent whatsoever because there's no space for it anymore.
- [32:13]
Julia Campbell
That is a great note for me on the school board. Here we are, we have a really big vote on a brand new elementary school. And it's. You think building a state of the art elementary school wouldn't be so contentious, but it's, it's pretty contentious. So I love that idea. Just really killing people with kindness and thanking your supporters and doing everything you can to really uplift the message and make it a positive experience for everyone.
- [32:41]
Patrick Kirby
It makes it such a dramatic change from someone who's like, this is stupid and kids are, I shouldn't have to pay for my kids because I don't have any kids. You're like, okay, great. Now you're the cranky old person that nobody wants to hang out with because you're not part of team. Team Good guy positivity. And I was told by a boss once that I was too enthusiastic and that wasn't going to raise enough money. And I looked him dead in the eye, I go, coming from a person who has no personality, this is a terrible, this is a terrible thing. Like, that's awful coming for you. I go, it's the only thing that's going to raise us money. Because if we are yours in the community and we are just like bored of our own mission, no one wants to give to us. They want to be part of a winning team. They want to be part of something. Nobody wants to give good money for a bad project. So if you aren't enthusiastic about it, if you aren't passionate about it, if you don't believe, if you aren't optimistic it's going to happen, nobody else is. So you have to be the leader on that. And again, use your childlike wonder to spur on all of that for you.
- [33:41]
Julia Campbell
Yes. I love it. Okay, so as we're, as we're wrapping up here, I Want to ask you what's the best piece of fundraising advice you've ever received?
- [33:50]
Patrick Kirby
I still go back to the never ask for a major gift unless you know the name of your donor's dog. I think it's the best piece of advice that I've ever gotten. I was consistently told by a lot of my early mentors of what's the worst that could happen. And I think if we frame that into if a no and you getting like a little butt hurt that someone didn't like your project is that's the worst thing that can happen.
- [34:12]
Julia Campbell
Right?
- [34:13]
Patrick Kirby
You're doing just fine. Then I think the other one too is like, think about how many people are out there. Like, I just think about the sure numbers of people if you. Because I think a lot of nonprofits have a list of the top 10 donors in each one of their cities, and that's all they can think about. And if they don't have those top 10 donors, they are not as great as everybody else. But here's the advice that I got from somebody, which is always look for the senior VPs, the next generation of business owners, the ones that are not tapped. Like, it's the kids of the business owners who will eventually take over the business. Ask them to be on your board, on your leadership team, and as part of your event squad. Because here's the dirty little secret. They're going to join. They're going to be really excited about it. They probably haven't been asked to be a part of their leadership position because their parents or their. Their mom or dad have always been doing that kind of work. They're going to come back and go, I got this position on this board or I'm a part of this campaign. You think their parents are going to let them fail miserably without giving them a bunch of advice and opening a bunch of doors for them? No. But nobody's tapping into that next level C suite executive that's going to take over the company. So lean into that next gen because nobody's doing it, number one. And number two, you've secured your leadership for the next number of years that your organization's going to be around, especially when they take over as a C. Love it.
- [35:31]
Julia Campbell
Love it. Don't do things the way it's always been done. Look in unexpected corners. All right, Patrick, where can people learn more about you, connect with you, and get your book?
- [35:43]
Patrick Kirby
Sure, you can go to dogoodbetterconsulting.com everything is right there. And you can go find the book on Amazon.com right now.
- [35:53]
Julia Campbell
Fundraise like a fifth grader Fundraise like a fifth grader. All the links will be in the show notes and I'm just so excited to have you here, Patrick. This was just like a breath of fresh air and I hope people get a lot of enthusiasm and ideas from this conversation.
- [36:09]
Patrick Kirby
I love it. Thank you so much for having me on. It's like it's been on my calendar for a while. I've been really excited about it and did not disappoint one bit.
- [36:24]
Julia Campbell
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. Keep changing the world, you non profit unic.