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- [00:00]
A
If you're like me, then you love a checklist. Especially to help manage the chaos of year end fundraising. When you go to my website right now, jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang, you'll get their packet of 12 year end fundraising checklists totally free. You'll get insight into how to plan and execute effective year end fundraising campaigns, questions to inspire donors and to follow up with lapsed donors. Innovative ways to re engage donors if you've been a bit quiet all year and how to level up your donation page to get more conversions and build your community. Just go to jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang and get this free download and make sure to let me know what you think. Now, on to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in Queen to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Really excited to be with you all today, wherever you are, whatever you're doing today, we're going to ask the question, what if everything you've been taught about fundraising isn't wrong, but just too safe? And I'm joined by Lisa Stuckeman, CFRE and author of Fundraising Rebel, a book that's shaking up how we think about donor relationships, generosity, and what it means to lead with courage in today's fundraising landscape. And Lisa is a consultant, mentor, and nationally recognized speaker who's worked with hundreds of nonprofit teams to help them ditch the donor centric buzzwords and build real, lasting connections. I am excited to hear about this. I love it. Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:28]
B
Thank you so much, Julie. I'm really excited about this conversation.
- [02:31]
A
Yay. Well, let's start with the number one question, the big question. What does it mean to be a fundraising rebel?
- [02:40]
B
Yeah, I knew you were gonna ask that.
- [02:42]
A
Yes. And I love. I used to love the James Dean movie Rebel that it cause.
- [02:46]
B
Yeah. And you know, actually I'd love to just read a couple paragraphs from the book because I reference that James Dean and we'll answer the question. This way it says, when we think of rebels, we might picture James De in a brown leather jacket, yes, Leaning on a red brick wall with a cigarette in his left hand. I'm sure rebels have a bad reputation. We think of them as troublemakers and contrarians. They're those colleagues, friends, and family members who complicate seemingly straightforward decisions, create chaos, and disagree when everyone else agrees. Often it's perceived that they're not unified with the rest of the staff. They may be labeled as difficult. In truth, with their unconventional outlooks and courageous choices, rebels make the world a better place. Instead of clinging to what is safe and familiar and falling back onto routines and traditions, rebels rattle cages and defy the status quo. They are masters of innovation and reinvention. They ask the hard questions. They hold people accountable. They are disruptors. They are brave. They are courageous. They take us where we need to go. And when I think of the challenges we're facing in development and how these problems are impacting the nonprofit sector as a whole, I believe more than ever that the answers to our problems rest in the rebels point of view. What we need are fundraising rebels who refuse to settle for the status quo and who will no longer be guided simply by data. What's hot and the way we've always done it mentality.
- [04:20]
A
The way we've always done it. All right, well, I want to hear about what inspired you to write the book. And, you know, what was the moment in your career when you realized, like, the traditional fundraising playbook was not working anymore?
- [04:32]
B
Yeah, that playbook, Julie.
- [04:35]
A
The way we've always done it.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah. I've never liked the playbook as someone who's a creative. My undergraduate degree was in musical theater.
- [04:45]
A
Oh, love it.
- [04:46]
B
Okay, so I took care of all that education for all of us here on the podcast, but I don't see the world through a playbook. I've always kind of, I don't know, gone around the other side or come in from the top or whatever because I find it boring. But that makes executive directors and boards uncomfortable and even fearful. But see, like, what if that playbook includes things like inflatable balloon clowns or ill fitting T shirts, really cheap plastic water bottles, emails with spelling errors, direct mail with coins inside of them and donate now buttons all over email. For me, I was like, we have to stop this madness, because my husband and I love giving. And so we're people who. Who have had multiple donor experiences. And quite honestly, most of them have not been incredibly fulfilling. That's amazing. So it's that lens Plus, I kind of have the inside scoop of the playbook where I just went, there has to be a different way, and we have to do things differently. So I just, in my motivation as a giver, but also in donor conversations, realize that meaningful donors experiences could actually change someone's life.
- [06:14]
A
Absolutely.
- [06:15]
B
It could bring fulfillment, purpose, joy. And so that's the driver of the things that I've tried. And all of these things have landed in this book. But first they ended up in conferences, as workshops, keynotes, whatever, and getting people's feedback. I love those, you know, reviews where they tell me what they thought. And so a lot of this is. Has been tried, that's in the book. So it's not just my pie in the sky idea, but it's been vetted and people are saying these things are working, these things make a difference. And so that's where the book comes from. My love of the sector, my experience in the sector, and then my experience working with donors and seeing their lives positively impacted when it works.
- [07:02]
A
Oh, my gosh. That's fantastic. So I know you've worked with organizations of all sizes. Yes, we are a CFRE certified Fundraising executive. Talk about a playbook that you have to learn. But what are some common myths or mindsets that are holding us back when it comes to fundraising?
- [07:21]
B
It's leaders who are saying things like, stay the course. The donors will come, our cause is important, and that's enough. And then disengaged yet stubborn boards that don't show up and don't give unless they're reminded a dozen times. The other thing I'd want to add in there, too, are uncooperative program departments. That's holding organizations of all sizes back. I'm sure, Julie, you've had the experience, too, where you had a donor who wanted information about something really specific, and you were like, oh, my goodness, where I'm going to get a story so something updated. They're going to love it. And you called the program department and they never called you back.
- [08:02]
A
I have actually had that exact thing happen.
- [08:04]
B
And now I'm stuck because I don't want to reveal that my program department's uncooperative. But I still need to get back to this donor. And ideally, I would have done it two days ago. So these are things. It does not matter the size of the organization. But if your leadership is looking backward and your board has no idea what's going on, but tends to put their foot down and be intimidating, and then your program department's disengaged, I Mean, these are some big hills to climb.
- [08:38]
A
Do you think that, you know, just to defend the program officers out there that are feeling busy and swamped.
- [08:46]
B
Sure.
- [08:46]
A
But do you think this is a matter of sort of busting down the silos? I mean, I feel like when I was a director of development, you know, you're the director of development, and it's like you've got to raise all this money and just close you off in a building and shut the door and no one speak to you. And it's just like you said. I think it does have to come from the top down, this culture of fundraising and making it everyone's job.
- [09:08]
B
I definitely agree with you. I'll give you one idea, which I bet you did. But one idea that I think really works well with program department is when you is to create a regular meeting with them. Monthly would be lovely, quarterly, minimally, where it's organized. So fundraising just isn't showing up at a site. And we didn't know they were coming or whatever. But we have a regular meeting where we know what the objectives are. If you could just tell me a couple cool things that have happened recently, then maybe I could share with you kind of an idea I had that maybe we could work together on then that I have found that that helps to bring down the silo. And then we all know the meeting's happening, so we kind of come prepared. And that's a way to get stories, too, without it being formal or telling them to type up a story and put it in a story bank. Just tell me. I'll even record it on my phone and then I'll handle the writing of it. But that has been helpful with the program department for sure. Over the years, I have had terrible relationships, and then I've had amazing relationships with program. And when it's amazing, man, it is a good ride. It's really fun. It's really fun.
- [10:24]
A
Exactly. I think also building up that trust, because I know when I started, usually as a development director, you start and then you come in and you have all these ideas and you want to get the newsletter out and you want to do storytelling and then. But some of the people might have worked there for years and years and years and are very protective of the clients and of the work that they do. So building that trust. And I love that idea of a regular meeting. I think that would help a lot of fundraisers just to stop that kind of hamster wheel scramble of where am I going to get this information from?
- [10:59]
B
Yeah. As a side note, I'll throw in another regular meeting that's helpful is a meeting with finance, because there can be tension there too. They always think the fundraisers are off making deals with donors that like, aren't like copacetic with the best practices of finance or whatever. If you can show that you're human, that you want to work with them, that regular meaning with finance can be helpful. Breaking down silos too, because we all know what it's like to work with, program, come up with something great. Donors love it, we get it together, and then we take it to finance and they're like, that's just not going to work.
- [11:36]
A
Exactly. Talk about something that you mentioned in this time that we're in the time when trust in institutions is declining, trust in nonprofits is declining, especially because of myths and misconceptions being led from the top of the federal government. Often. How can we operate in this climate? Like, how can fundraisers show up with more authenticity in this climate of declining trust and misinformation?
- [12:05]
B
I think that that one on one communication with donors is really important. We have to become even more human than we already are because it is really challenging out there. One of the ways, though, that we can provide great transparency is through what I like to call good math. And that's when we're talking about how much money we're going to ask for. And this has gotten off the rails a little bit. Not every organization does this, but like, because it seems easier to make an ask where we kind of try to quantify something that costs a certain amount. So we'll say something like $1,000 educates a preschooler. Because we feel like $1,000 might be a good ask for our population. Everyone wants to educate a preschooler, so we just start throwing it out there. But then you'll have donors, like perhaps my husband, who can do that math in their head really fast. He, he can count cards. Okay, so, so, right.
- [13:08]
A
I feel like my husband would, would question that math too.
- [13:10]
B
Okay, exactly. So what happens then is he's thinking, okay, well there's $1,000. I wonder what's included in that. I wonder if they included staff time, did they include air conditioning? Did they include. And he starts rolling and then you've lost him in the conversation. And then he starts pulling up like a 990 because he can't. And all of a sudden this math kind of evaporated and now our transparency is shot and our authenticity is out the window. And now we're back in that big group of people. Just that you Were talking about at the jump of this question. And we're associated. See, they do bad math just like all the other ones do, too. Here's an exercise that I've been encouraging a lot of my mentees and my clients. This is what I would love for everyone to try. I would love organizations to take their budgets and divide it by 2080, which is the number of hours worked in a year. And I would like them to know what it costs to run their organization for one hour.
- [14:24]
A
Is that a 40 hour work week?
- [14:25]
B
Yes.
- [14:26]
A
Okay.
- [14:26]
B
So if you want to play with that week, like, I don't know if you're educational and then you take the summer off or whatever, feel free. Or you take Christmas off, however specific you want to get to. But most people will understand a 40 hour work week, 52 weeks a year. It's 20, 80 hours. What does it cost to run the organization for one hour? Because then it's all fully burdened inside of that. And I can do that math basically in my head or quickly on the calculator on my phone. And then as the development professional, it gives me the opportunity to cast a vision of what could happen in an hour. A child could learn some English. A child could learn how to read. We could feed a struggling neighbor. We could help a homeless person. What happens in an hour?
- [15:16]
A
Interesting.
- [15:17]
B
If we could get down to that type of minutiae, then we get past these wrongs, these holes in the road that our sector keeps falling into. And so I'd encourage us. Now, whether you want to use that or not, that's up to you. I like the idea. I think it communicates quite easily. But as a development professional, you should know these numbers.
- [15:42]
A
Mm.
- [15:43]
B
So that's kind of one of the latest things I've been doing to help get us through these challenges that you're. You're talking about.
- [15:50]
A
What do you think about the overhead myth? Do you think that would sort of combat people's hesitancy to fund, quote, unquote, overhead? Because what I see a lot is, you know, charity water is the king of this. 100% of your donation goes to building wells or building fresh water. I think that we could all say that realistically, but I just. Some of the fundraising asks are very much like that. I wonder if the model that you're talking about can really educate people on what it actually costs to do work.
- [16:24]
B
Yeah, I have done both. I was the vice president of philanthropy for an organization where we were able to adopt that hundred percent model for all operational costs through endowments. So I've been in that space. I would say that donors appreciate it, but donors also. I mean, they're educated. They have to turn their lights on and their air conditioning on, and they pay a mortgage, you know. So by saying that those things are part of the work, I'd like to think we're kind of. I mean, maybe I'm being naive. I'd like to think we're kind of past some of that. The fully burdened cost is important, and your donor should be excited about those things too.
- [17:09]
A
So you're pretty clear on the fact that donor centric fundraising needs a reframe. Can you talk about that and sort of walk us through why? Yeah. Okay.
- [17:19]
B
So 15 years ago, I think it was cute. We were donor centric in the way of, like, we knew if a donor liked to go fishing or if they liked knitting. And we felt that. That. That. That was knowing their passion and interests, and then that was going to help them feel more connected to the organization. A lot has happened since we had started that conversation, and our world has become a very different place. I think that as development professionals, we need to become passionately interested in our donors, not just in the little things they like to do. But see, I believe. And. And it talks about this in the book, that we are literally, and you can choose if you're gonna agree with me or not, but we're literally born with injustices we wanna see made right. Just like how your hair color is different than my hair color. We have different injustices that we wanna see made right. And there's so many of them. I think that's one of. That's kind of a neat thing, is that we can get behind different things. Now. Some of that just might be something intrinsic about us that since the age of five, I've cared about puppies. Or it can be. In my case, I have a mother who's struggling with advanced dementia. That matters to me more than it did when I was five. As nonprofit fundraisers, we need to deeply respect this injustice that your donors are walking around with. And we do that through creating meaningful donor experiences. It's not just about their giving anniversary anymore. I could care less. I don't remember when I gave my first gift. It's not meaningful to me if somebody tells me, you know, I don't. I mean, thanks, I guess. I'm glad you have a CRM that's just not telling me anything about me.
- [19:12]
A
Other than a data point on a.
- [19:13]
B
Spreadsheet that I wrote a check. I mean, thanks. What did that Cost you to write me that card. It's not inexpensive to send out male these days, so I want you to know my specifics of the injustice that I want it, I want made right. I want you to help me learn more about those. I want you to put me in a community of other people who care about it so we can fight this injustice together.
- [19:40]
A
Yes. Build a movement.
- [19:41]
B
I love that.
- [19:42]
A
I always say that.
- [19:43]
B
Yeah. And years ago, Harvard did a study on people who had retired and asked them what they missed. And interestingly, I mean, they kind of missed the money, but it wasn't number one. And they didn't really miss the work. What they missed was a shared purpose. So get me and my injustice in a community with others who have that shared purpose. You're going to give me more meaning in my life. You're going to give me more. More joy. And in fact, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal a couple weeks ago that actually quantified that when we help others, it's the best stress reducer.
- [20:25]
A
Oh, wow.
- [20:26]
B
Out there. More than the candles and the massage and the roller or whatever it is, or the yoga, it's actually helping somebody else.
- [20:37]
A
I can see that.
- [20:38]
B
So this is. We. Let's move on from donor centricity. Give me a community.
- [20:45]
A
I love that. I always say, like, would they put your organization on their car to kind of signal to other people.
- [20:51]
B
Sure.
- [20:51]
A
That they love your organization, or would they wear it on a shirt? Or is it something they put on their water bottle? Because that signals to other people. And my husband. It's so funny.
- [21:01]
B
He would.
- [21:02]
A
He doesn't. Well, he wears, like, metal band shirts, so I guess that's a signal to other metal band people in his own way. But I'm like the queen of pins and buttons and bumper stickers and everything. And I want everybody to know how I feel about things because I want to connect with people that, like you just said, have a shared purpose and are concerned about these injustices and want to talk about these injustices. So to me, that is kind of the most powerful form of fundraising. I'm interested to know if you have any ideas about how we can start to shift our messaging. Nonprofits really used to rely on guilt and scarcity, and I think that's changing a lot right now. What kind of shifts should we be making in our messaging?
- [21:42]
B
Yeah, I think every time we sit down to communicate with our donors, we need to ask ourselves, is this going to be a meaningful experience for them? And in fact, I. I encourage all the people that I work with to go through seven questions every time they're planning for an interaction with a donor. So this could be like a mailed piece, an email. This could be an event, anything, a one on one meeting with a donor. I want you to have reviewed these seven things and have answers for them. And I could go through them if you would.
- [22:21]
A
Yes. Oh, I would love it.
- [22:23]
B
So I actually would like you, if you're preparing this.
- [22:26]
A
Yes.
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B
Donor professional to take out a pen and a piece of paper and hand write out the mission of your organization. Like, when is the last time you might have it memorized, but when is the last time you actually wrote it with your hand? I would like you to. The second thing is I would like you to be able to name the injustice or the villain that you're up against. Who are you fighting? Do you know? Do you know who you're fighting? Can you name it if you can't stop and figure that out? Because if we're going to be engaging a donor in a meaningful experience and they have an injustice they want to see made right, they need to know that, you know, that we're fighting the same person or the same thing or the same climbing the same hill. Okay, three is I want you to write out where the work actually happens. Where does the work of your mission happen? Is it in an office building? Is it on a playground? Is it in a different country? Where are you doing the work? And then I say, consider the gritty stuff. What's broken that needs to be fixed? For a long time, nonprofits felt like everything had to be perfect in order for someone to give to it. That's totally wrong. If there's an injustice that needs to be made right, tell them what's broken. Tell them what needs to be fixed. What's slowing you down. That tell them. So write that out so you can communicate that well. Then I want to list out five people who have been positively impacted by the organization. That's your stories, right? Who are five people and know their name, if we're allowed to know their name. And I want you to have this written out and ready. And then to jot down your favorite donor interaction. What's your favorite donor experience thus far? And to ask yourself, lastly, who needs encouragement? Is it a staff member? Is it the people that you serve? Is it the parents of the people that you serve? Who is really, really struggling right now? If you know the answers to those seven questions, then communication pieces, they'll always be meaningful. You won't be scrambling to try to help I don't know, write some poem or. You know what I mean? Like, we get so stuck with the white page, we start saying weird things. We start saying weird things. This is what is meaningful for a donor and this is the homework you need to do. So that's my encouragement in regard to shifting the message and then also challenging. Are there ways to respond other than with a gift or a gift?
- [25:10]
A
And.
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B
And this is coming into what I really love to do. Like this two way communication. Think about a mailed piece and then also think about that question. Who needs encouragement?
- [25:21]
A
I love that question.
- [25:23]
B
So I live in Tampa Bay. Last year we had Hurricane Helene and Milton. The elementary and middle school for the community where I live was completely wiped out. Those kids lost their classrooms, they lost their school supplies, they lost their gym uniforms, they lost their backpacks, their teachers lost everything. And yet. Which was cool. But they got school going in another local school while they brought in mobile classrooms within days. Because those kids needed to get back to school. They needed to be with their friends. Those teachers were exhausted.
- [26:04]
A
Oh, I can imagine.
- [26:06]
B
Because they lost their houses too.
- [26:07]
A
Of course.
- [26:09]
B
So what if in that circumstance, your local educational foundation would have asked donors to, yes, give toward building up that classroom again, but also including a handwritten note to the teacher. What if it was on a door hanger? So when they opened that mobile unit, there were 20 hangers there on the doorknob saying, you can do this. We appreciate you. Don't give up. This is worth it. Two way interaction for donors. Not just reading the appeal and making the donation, which has its merit. I'm not, but we have to think a little more beyond that. The other thing too is with some of that two way communication, we can engage children in that.
- [26:53]
A
And I always, oh, right, right. Like making a card or making those little door hangers.
- [26:58]
B
Color it with right. Because as parents, we're always trying to teach generosity to our children. And so I always say that's donor gold if you can get that involved in there as well. So this is how the messaging needs to change. It needs to become much more meaningful. And I believe the organizations that take time to create that are going to create that loyalty and that generosity that's missing right now.
- [27:24]
A
I think those seven questions are also really valuable for marketers to be answering when they're creating any kind of marketing piece, when they are doing a social media campaign or writing a press release or doing any kind of outreach. Because you do need to know, you need to know the answers. I'm sure people will be Rewinding that and taking down notes, but I think that was so phenomenal. So in terms of leaders, what would you say to leaders, like how to build a culture that supports rebellious fundraisers and doesn't stifle them?
- [28:02]
B
I'm going to take the rebel position on this. If you are currently in leadership and everything that you and I have just talked about, you find abhorrent, you find hopeless, you need to leave, you need to go. Because here's the rub. And I hope you haven't felt it, but I'm going to guess that you have. Julia, here's the rub. We can do all these wonderful, creative things. We can meet with donors and talk about their discontent, their injustice. We can get donors to a certain place, but there is a safe ceiling that we are not able to push through if our leadership will not let us go there.
- [28:45]
A
Right, Right.
- [28:47]
B
And so I would like to think that the lion's share, really, of this challenge is in the executive director seat and it is in the board. And how many and how many podcasts, Julia, have you had of fundraisers being like, help me with my board, help me with my executive directors. I come up with these ideas and then they're like, that's cute. Let's do what we did last year. Yes, that really needs to change. And if you are that leader, you are holding your organization back. You are literally suffocating your mission.
- [29:22]
A
If you're not growing, yeah, you're dying. Right.
- [29:26]
B
And if you're not open to this, because here's the challenge. The competition for donors attention and their finances is not the next nonprofit down the street. It's actually like Amazon, Instagram, and Target. That's who we're competing against. And the proof is there's 250 billion sitting in DAFS. Why has it not been deployed? And then I ask you, if for some reason the government were to say, you know what, that DAF money that's just sitting there, you can use it at any way you want, tax free, how quickly do you think that we drain the tank? I'm not proposing that we are a certain type of people that would lean into that. I'm just saying they're grabbing our attention. They're making it feel like a meaningful experience. And that, because that's what I want, that's the proof that we really need to turn this corner. And for. For afraid leaders, it's time to move on to something else.
- [30:32]
A
And for fundraisers, I know you've mentored a lot of fundraisers. So as we kind of wrap up here. What advice do you give to a fundraiser? Who's feeling stuck? Or just anyone, really. Actually, anyone that is feeling stuck, discouraged. They're just checking boxes. What advice do you have for us to be more rebellious? Insert more rebellion into our daily life?
- [30:55]
B
Okay, first, I think you should have a mentor. Okay. Whether it's a friend or if it's someone that you pay to secure their time, like once a month or something like that, you need that voice in your life that's reminding you that you're talented and the reason that you got into this and helping you to untie the knot. But I'd also say if you're feeling stuck, if you're perhaps feeling. Feeling burnt out, which. The definition of that is hopeless. Are you taking care of yourself? There's portions of my book that talk about that, like, do you need a walk? Do you need a nap? Do you need a day off? Evaluate that. But once you get past those things, I'd love to encourage you to meet with a donor. They will remind you and inspire you. I'd encourage you to take a tour of where you work and take a look at the. The work that's being done that you're helping to support. But then I'd encourage you to give, too, because like I said, you have an injustice that you want to see made right. When you help to see that made right, you have more purpose in your life. You can become a part of a community that cares about things. That's pretty inspirational. And then that'll help reduce your stress as well. So you get involved in the sector in a different way and see what that does for you. I love that.
- [32:20]
A
Lisa, thank you so much. Where can people find you? Find the book and connect with you?
- [32:25]
B
Yeah, thanks for asking. So I have a really simple website@fundraisingrebel.org and then you can find me on LinkedIn at lisastucheman, which is s T U E C K E M A N N. I'm also on Facebook @LisaStuckerman, fundraising rebel. But please do reach out to me and message me. The book is on Amazon. You can just put Fundraising Rebel, Amazon, and it'll come up. And I'd love to interact with you. Don't hesitate to send me a message. If there's anything you want to talk about, more specifically that we talked about in this conversation, it would be my joy. And if you need some encouragement, let me be in that space for you as well. Julia, thank you so much. This has been good fun, and I appreciate having an opportunity to talk about these things.
- [33:12]
A
Oh great. Thanks so much, Lisa. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit Unicorn.
- [34:06]
B
Sa.