← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
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- [00:00]
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- [00:58]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
- [01:46]
Hello, this is Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about fundraising, which some of you might think is a dirty word, but what if fundraising isn't a necessary evil, but a powerful act of bridge building? So my guest today is Jill Vorondran and Jill leads a 75 person team raising over $85 million annually for Covenant House International. And today we're going to talk about what most conferences leave out, which I love. I go to a lot of fundraising conferences and I see a lot of different sessions on fundraising, but we're going to talk about what the conferences leave out today. So how to lead with relentless joy and accountability. I love that. Why excellent CEOs still struggle with fundraising and what it really takes to sustain a high performing development culture. And I'm sure we'll talk about many other things. So Jill, welcome to the podcast. How do you take time out of your day leading the 75 person team?
- [02:51]
Jill Vorondran
Oh, well, thanks Julia for having me. It's nice to kind of push away from the table every once in a while and talk about the work, not just do the work. And so I'm really excited for the opportunity to do that with you, I'm a. I listen to you all the time and all the incredible guests that you have on, and it's. I take good notes all the time. So I feel like when you're. When you're taking so much from our interdependent industry that we're in, it's kind of fun to maybe try to give back a little bit, something to it that I've, you know, that we've all learned along the way. So really happy to be here.
- [03:23]
Julia Campbell
So what is something that people would be surprised to learn about what your day to day looks like?
- [03:29]
Jill Vorondran
Hmm. Well, after all of these years of fundraising, I think probably the most surprising thing about my day is that I don't spend a ton of time actually fundraising. I've benefited from being able to hire a team of leaders who are so much better and more experienced than I am in their individual pieces of the business. And so my work has become a lot less about the day to day business of the fundraising and so much more about, like, nurturing our team culture, building our bench, collaborating with the other teams at Covenant House and with our local sites throughout the United States, Canada and Latin America, keeping projects moving forward, helping to prioritize, and just, you know, fostering a lot of collaboration between our different channels and our different teams in development. So it's much more of leadership work these days than it is fundraising work for me these days, but only because I have the luxury of working with incredibly talented fundraisers who are just better at that part of it in each of their areas than I am.
- [04:39]
Julia Campbell
Yeah, it's like Jim Collins. Good to great. Getting the right people on the bus.
- [04:43]
Jill Vorondran
Yep. Yeah. Don't be afraid to hire people who are smarter than you.
- [04:46]
Julia Campbell
I think you always should. And this is kind of why I started my podcast is to talk to people smarter than me or to talk to people that I really admired and wanted to, you know, pick their brains or get their insight. So tell me about Covenant House International. Tell me about the mission and, you know, sort of why it was founded and the work you do.
- [05:06]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, so we are the movement leader of the mission to end Youth Homelessness in the Americas. And so we have worked over the past, you know, 50 plus years, have never closed our doors for a night. Open intake is the driving principle of our work. So if any young person who is experiencing homelessness or about to experience homelessness needs a place to be where they can first, you know, receive the care that they need, to have a place to sleep, to have food to eat, to have A place where they feel safe, like we are that place. But then very quickly, the work begins with them, to co create with them, to accompany them and support them in creating the life of their dreams. And so we operate, as I mentioned, throughout the United States, Canada and Latin America, and have been an international organization pretty much since our inception in 1972. We began in New York City, which I think a lot of people know. We were right positioned right outside of the Lincoln Tunnel, so people have seen our logo there forever and ever. And our next site was in Toronto, and then the one after that was in Guatemala. So from the beginning, we wanted to have an international presence. And while our work is very similar throughout all of our locations, the young people who we serve are experiencing homelessness for very different reasons. And so our local sites really tailor our programs to what the community needs at any given time.
- [06:36]
Julia Campbell
You call fundraising a bridge building superpower and not a necessary evil. And why do you think so many nonprofits still struggle to see it that way?
- [06:47]
Jill Vorondran
Well, I. Probably the best way to answer it is to go back to when I thought it was a necessary evil. Yes.
- [06:53]
Julia Campbell
I remember my first day as a development director. Yeah.
- [06:56]
Jill Vorondran
And even when I started at Covenant House working in our program, I had gone to law school and began out my. My work at Covenant House in helping young people who were experiencing legal challenges as an obstacle to them getting an apartment or getting a job. And I looked at fundraising at that time as just like, well, this thing that's necessary for me to be able to do my important work. Then when I moved into development, I was excited for the opportunity to connect people to our mission. But I think the reason that I, you know, saw it as this, like, you know, shadow side of our work is that we see it oftentimes through the lens of, like, scarcity, that there's only so much to go around, and if you're not winning, you're losing. And how can something feel joyful or like a superpower when you're viewing it through that lens? And I think is also, in those earlier days of my fundraising experiences, all I knew how to do was fundraise transactionally. I, you know, was. Was. Was chasing after the next ask and focusing much more on the solicitation step in the moves management process than I was on the cultivating and certainly on the stewarding. And it's embarrassing to look back and think of how, you know, so many folks would hear from me when I was making the ask and then shortly thereafter, and the next time they would hear from Me is for the next ask. And so that is sort of an evil way of fundraising, because it's not authentic and it's not engaging, and it really is separate from the real work. And so what I've learned over time, a thousand times since then, from the incredible people who I work with and the incredible people who support our mission, is that building this bridge for families, for companies, for individuals, for places of worship, to live deeply into their power and of creating community change is my superpower and is a superpower that we can all. That we can all have. And so now. Now it's fun.
- [08:58]
Julia Campbell
I completely agree with you about the scarcity mindset, and I think it takes over. And also just the risk aversion, sort of fear of saying something wrong, doing something wrong, and then also the. The transactional aspect, like you said. I think so much of fundraising right now is that transaction, and it's transactional and not relational. And we need to start focusing more on that. So what do you think most conferences and trainings leave out when it comes to this work?
- [09:31]
Jill Vorondran
Just to be clear, I think what is left out is maybe even not suited for, you know, for the environment of a conference or a training, something that's taking place in a. In a short period of time. So it may even be, like, kind of, you know, impossible.
- [09:46]
Julia Campbell
Like a mindset shift, maybe.
- [09:48]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, yeah. I think it's that, like, that slow, nuanced, and completely individualized work of genuine relationship building. And, you know, which is why it's very hard to teach that in an hour or in a weekend. Like, it's a lifelong journey to get into relationships with people, to know what is their motivation, and to tap into that in terms of finding the match for their personal philanthropy. And that's whether it's a major donor or whether it's a monthly donor. It could be. The social workers and the other folks who I work with work with our young people in wholly individualized ways, that there's no cookie cutter approach to how a young person turns their own life around. And it's exactly the same with our supporters. Like, we need systems. We need that science of fundraising. We need the best practices. But if, especially if you're doing that high touch fundraising, knowing and seeing our supporters as people, their histories, their motivations, what they do for fun, what they care about, just like we do, our friends and coworkers, I think is just essential. And I. I learned that the hard way over time, for sure. But. And that's also, I think, striking the balance between, like, we're not friend makers, we're fundraisers. And I think some people can often confuse the two. Like if you're developing these deep relationships, how do you then make it transactional? By asking for money. But if those relationships are built from an authent shared passion for a mission and genuine care for one another, it's always going to work. But if it isn't, it's not going to last for too long. And you know, again, those are hard learned lessons of mine. And I also think in, in the conferences and, and trainings I see it, I see this shifting a little bit, but the value of the back office operations, the development operations folks, I think is so underestimated. Like I've hired so many excellent relationship builders. They're charismatic, they're fun, they know how to connect with people. You know, we always call them outdoor cats in on our team. The people who just need to be out of their desks and you know, out connecting with people.
- [11:56]
Julia Campbell
I love that outdoor cat.
- [11:57]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, yeah, we and then the outdoor cats, the indoor cats are the development operations people and the charismatic fundraisers who are most successful are the ones who I have seen appreciate the value of the back office and abide by the systems as best they can and know that they have not raised one single dollar on their own, that they are doing so in partnership with the development operations folks who keep the trains running and who operate the systems and who are cognizant of that science of fundraising. And so while I've seen the conferences and trainings really shifting to include a bit more of that, I think the marriage between those two is a place that I had to learn on my own and that I think our industry hasn't paid enough attention to yet.
- [12:42]
Julia Campbell
I agree. I feel guilty of this a little bit because I teach social media and digital marketing and so much of that is not looked at as community building or relationship building or movement building. It's looked at as how can we acquire more donors, how can we get more donors, what can we get from using these channels and then how can we promote our agenda on all of these channels rather than providing value, knowledge, education, inspiration to our donors and to our audience. So it's about like what we can get and what we can get out of it and how fast we can do it and is it a quick fix? So I have, I've completely shifted my teaching in the 15 years, you know, I've been doing this on my own to really encouraging people to think about like you're talking about the longer game and the Longer. So the long tail of relationship building rather than that quick little like getting that donation, because you want people to be with you for the long haul. You want people to be your ambassadors and to spread the word, to talk about you, to do fundraisers for you. That's really where you're gonna see that loyalty come in.
- [13:55]
Jill Vorondran
I love that you shifted your. Your practice around. That. It's like that African proverb that we've all heard so many times, that if you wanna go quickly, go alone, and if you wanna go do it together. I butchered that. But, you know, you know what I'm referring to.
- [14:09]
Julia Campbell
I love that I need to hear that a lot. I mean, I just. Because I'm. It's hard for me to delegate things as well.
- [14:15]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, absolutely. And it all comes from good intentions. Like, we see the missions that we were serving, and we want to have the impact on them that they deserve. And so, of course, we're going to try and do it as quickly as possible, and then, you know, add to that, you know, fiscal year mandates and board requirements and budgets, and of course we're going to try and do it quickly. But I've just learned over time that we are just so much more successful when we take the time. And like you're saying, like, use those tools to build community and add value and not just kind of transactionally try to get people to the next offer.
- [14:50]
Julia Campbell
Well, let's talk about the time, the moment that we're in right now. So there. The moment that we're in, I just got tired thinking about it. But obviously there's rising need, there's decline, at least in the United States. Declining federal funding, almost a war on nonprofits, declining charitable giving. There's not a decline in wealth, but I think a decline in number of donors and just an overall distrust and mistrust in institutions, something that I'm seeing. So what are you seeing? What trends are you seeing on the ground, and how are you advising your team to sort of navigate this moment?
- [15:29]
Jill Vorondran
Well, one that we're seeing for sure is uncertainty among our team about how to address these polarizing perspectives and political positions. Like, our mission is one that has always been supported in a very bipartisan way. Like, people are drawn to the desire to end youth homelessness for so many different reasons, and it's so universal. And that's always been something that we've enjoyed as a benefit. But now there is this hesitation, I think, for people on my team to lean into kind of one side or the other. How do you speak with Someone who, you know, is supporting the mission for a different reason or, you know, comes at it from a different political perspective than I do as an example. And what we have really tried to do, both in our mass communications and also in our one on one engagement, is to show how in this time where I think more than anything else, people are craving unity and community and kindness and all despite or maybe because of. All the other stuff that we're seeing, is to show that our missions can be that for people in their life, that we are a place of unity. We are a place of positivity, where you can be a change agent and do a little bit to pause some goodness to happen in other people's lives. And that there is this like, you know, general appeal, regardless of why your port of entry to a mission is what it is that, you know, in the example of Covenant House, you know, conservative folks see us as a place where young people take control of their lives, find a job, become contributing citizens.
- [17:12]
Julia Campbell
The hand Rand of it all, right.
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Jill Vorondran
Exactly. Yep. And progressive folks see that we're solving systemic issues and we're a human rights mission. And I've heard recently that when your tent is really big, you need a big campfire. I think our job is to create this big campfire where everybody sort of feels warm in our mission and, you know, sees it not as a place where they have to pick a side, but where they can come together with folks who may see things differently than they do, but have the same intrinsic heart and motivation. I think what we're also seeing is a hesitation to ask, to be honest that, you know, that with, you know, consumer confidence down and, you know, people not knowing.
- [17:58]
Julia Campbell
Yeah, yeah. Everything up.
- [18:01]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah. And like, what's going to happen with their 401k the next time they open it and all that. There's a shyness almost that I saw back in 2008 during the recession that I saw again during COVID where there's a hesitation among frontline fundraisers to solicit because they don't know what the other person is going through in that moment. And what we learned during Those times, the 2008 recession, Covid, those other times, where there have. Has been some, you know, some bumpiness in the. In the fundraising world is don't stop connecting, don't stop asking. And if people are going to give less, which many are, often for some good reasons, to just to find more people, to not undersell the power of asking people to invest in a mission at a time where they're looking to See good and cause good to happen in the world.
- [18:52]
Julia Campbell
Exactly. And giving gives people agency. Often in times of extreme uncertainty, like we saw in Covid, I feel like people were incredibly, obviously very uncertain, very scared, very nervous. But they said, you know, I see this need, and, you know, I have it. Okay. There are people that have it worse than I do, or there's a nonprofit that really needs my help, and it's going to make me feel good and make me feel in control a little bit by giving. So I see that a lot. I see that a lot with my clients is they're giving their donors that opportunity to say, look, this is a unprecedented time period. It's always unprecedented times. This is a very unprecedented time. But here's what you can do. There's something you can do if you want to. You know, if you feel like things are out of control or you feel helpless or powerless, giving and helping and volunteering even. I mean, all of that can help people feel that agency and kind of get some of that control back if they're sort of spinning out of control. It's interesting that you. I mean, I know you are working to end youth homelessness, and when, you know, I have some clients that really, their mission is not in any way, could be construed controversial, but it's 2025, and so everything is controversial. Like, if you want to save, you know, you like oranges, someone's going to say, what about apples? What about the plums? I mean, it's just. That's just where we are right now. So how do you deal with that? Or maybe it. Are you seeing negativity online? Are how are your staff members navigating those conversations? While what I think is so important, while remaining true to your mission and standing up for your clients, but also being aware that you don't want to start or stoke some of these fires.
- [20:47]
Jill Vorondran
It'S something that we're like. We're navigating every day, and we have not seen a lot of negativity online. But I think it's also because we are kind of surgically, painfully crafting our message to be one of unity and more general appeal and not leaning into some of the more controversial parts of the work that we do. And early on in the year, that was a challenging conversation among our team about how loud should our voice be and what should our voice include and exclude. And as time has gone on, we have leaned into what has always been sort of the home for us, which is what do our young people need most right now? And our Young people need most for us to be a place where they feel safe and where they feel that we have their backs. And that calls for us to not always be the loudest voice in the room on the most controversial of the issues at this moment. And, you know, for a mission like ours that's been around for 50 years, and, you know, sadly, we'll probably be around for at least another 50, that this is a moment in time for us, and this is a time for us to have the power of unity and kindness and safety. And we're in those conversations and we, you know, are not changing at all what's happening inside of our doors. We are, you know, just being very thoughtful about not adding to the divisiveness that's already happening in the world in this moment. And, you know, and then gauging when. When our voice is welcome to do that and when our voice would be harmful to do that.
- [22:35]
Julia Campbell
I think that is so smart to just have those conversations. How loud do we want to be? Where does our voice matter most? And what's our North Star, which is our mission, which is serving the youth. Right. So I think about that. I serve on the school board here and I am very vocal about a lot of issues. People know this. I'm very open about my political beliefs and I can do that. I'm self employed. But as a member of the school board, you do have to understand, like, picking your battles, how loud you want your voice to be, and serving the children, all children at the end of the day, you know, all the students. I mean, that's really our North Star and our mission. And does this Facebook flame war that I might get into with someone, is that going to serve them? And probably the answer is no. So I really, I think that's just so important to have that inflection. But I want to turn the conversation to how you. Like what, what have you learned about retaining your top fundraisers? Like, not just finding them, but keeping them engaged and growing. I know turnover is really a huge problem in our sector right now, especially in fundraising.
- [23:40]
Jill Vorondran
You know, we have been so fortunate to have a really high retention rate on our team, and it wasn't always that way. And so, you know, I've learned a lot along the way about what not to do and, and therefore what to do. And I think there's. There's a few. I think one is all effective fundraisers, whether you're a frontline fundraiser or you're supporting fundraising in some way, have a very high level of accountability to the work that we're doing. And I think, I love that about development because it's just very clear what success looks like for you and what success, success does not look like for you. And so we are very clear about our expectations, but we also co create those with the people who are in the roles. And so we never, for example, thinking of like a major gift officer role where it's very easy in black and white to see what success looks like and what it doesn't. We have never imposed the key performance indicators on folks. We sit with them on the same side of the table and co create those with them so that they don't feel like their expectations are out of reach, they don't feel like they were imposed, that they then become these exciting goals for them to, to shoot for. And again, it takes a lot longer. It doesn't always end up feeling as ambitious as I personally would like for it to be. But I've often seen too that those ambitions can be grounded in something that's false. You know, that, that my need to impose ambition and to continuously raise the bar doesn't always match reality. And the folks who are doing the frontline fundraising are the one know the reality. And if I don't trust them to set ambitious goals that are attainable by them, then how am I trusting them to go into people's living rooms throughout the country and talk to them about our mission? Like it. So, you know, having that level of trust and co creation of expectations I think has been something that's been helpful in us retaining our team. We celebrate successes all the time. We do it publicly, we do it privately, we ask our CEO to, we ask our board members to. We're forever catching people doing good things. And I found, you know, early on in my leadership that I was celebrating the big moments. So the big gala number or you know, the big calendar year end successes and you know, people liked that. And it's so much more important, I think, to celebrate those little moments of greatness that you see people doing throughout the year that culminate in those big moments. And, and so that is something that we do all the time. My team is mostly hybrid at this point. We're like, we're all over the country and we get together in person a couple times a year and in our annual meeting at the end of the year, we scrap all the agenda and what we do is just take all 75 people and individually call out the greatness that they bring to our work. And so the celebration happens formally in those ways and then it happens just as part of our culture all the time. And so I think people always feel like we're. Regardless of your role, whether you're like, you know, the charismatic major gift officer who's getting the seven figure gifts, or you're the data entry person who's making sure that the person who's raising all of that money is able to, you know, operate and do their work. We're. We're celebrating it all in the same way. We create a really healthy work life balance. We became really messy with that during COVID and I think a lot of folks did. And we were burning out. I was burning out. My colleagues were burning out. We really just scrapped the whole thing and made a point of ensuring that at the end of the day, folks are closing their laptops and going and living the rest of their lives. Those of us in leadership were really trying to walk the walk by. Well, literally walk the walk. I would put on my calendar. I'm going for a walk at this time.
- [27:38]
Julia Campbell
I have to put it on my calendar too.
- [27:40]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, exactly. Because it's. Otherwise it doesn't happen. And even if I was just blocking out on my calendar, you know, a no meeting time, it gave permission to my team to see, like, I'm going for a walk. And then they're like, oh, wait, this is something not only that is allowed, but is encouraged. And so I'm gonna go and do the same. And whether somebody has a job that can happen any time of day or whether they're heavily, you know, meeting role, we always make sure that if something's happening with their family, if they're not feeling great, if they're just not, you know, up for it today, that we're in it for the long haul together, and that you have to take care of yourself. And so that, I think, has been something that's really helped with retention. We have a lot of young parents on our team, and we give them a lot of room to parent. And therefore, they have really reinvested their family's life back into our mission and give even more because they know it's a place that takes care of them, you know, in the same way that they take care of us and our young people. And. And then we offer a lot of support. Like, we don't expect outdoor cats to do indoor cat things, and we don't. And I really love that term. Yeah. And so we make sure that people don't feel burned out by being asked to do things that they're just not that good at and that are going to get in the way of what they are here to be. And then I guess lastly maybe is that we've really created a strong community among our team. We do a lot of virtual fun stuff together. We do some in person fun stuff together. We make our meetings centered not just on, like whatever the agenda is, but also on ensuring that we're connecting with each other, asking about each other. We have a lot of new folks, younger folks on our team, and really want to make sure that they in a team that has a ton of older people like me who have been with the mission for a really long time. We don't want to have a place where it feels like there's an in crowd and an outcrowd or a clique of people who have been with the organization for a long time and a bunch of newbies. And so we really relentlessly try to create community so that everybody feels like they belong. And I think that sense of belonging can outweigh a lot of those downsides that cause fundraisers to up and leave pretty quickly because they don't feel like they're being successful, they don't feel like they're supported and they don't feel at home in the organization to which they're devoting so much of their time.
- [30:05]
Julia Campbell
Absolutely. I mean, you call this a culture of relentless joy and relentless accountability, and I love that that's what you had written to me in one of your emails. I really think that it's incredibly important. What is your sort of number one tip for a fundraiser right now that wants to maybe build this kind of culture? I know probably has to start from the top down, but what advice would you give to fundraisers that might be burned out, then all of this sounds great. Like, what is the. Your tip?
- [30:38]
Jill Vorondran
I think for if it's a fundraiser who is not in a leadership role at the or if you're a leader, it is your responsibility to create this culture. And it's so hard and it's. I benefit from having, you know, like a lot of trust for my CEO and from my board, so I get, you know, a lot of room to, you know, kind of, you know, create the structures that work for my team. But for a fundraiser who is, you know, feeling exhausted and understandably burned out by the job itself, and then, you know, add to that the environment in which we're working in right now, I think it is really to define what it is that you personally need to feel joy in the work again, or to feel joy in the work for the first time. And then to ask for it. Because I don't think that as, you know, people who are in leadership roles always know and intuit what everybody individually needs. I think, though, if we take the space to say, you know, to, to really reflect personally, to say, what do I need to feel joy in this work? For some people, the work life harmony is so much more important than anything else. And so if that's the piece that's burnt out, if you feel like you're being asked to do things that compromise your commitments in the rest of your life, like, figure that out and, and ask for it. If you feel like, gosh, I just need more support, like, I'm out and creating these relationships and asking for money, and then I'm coming back and doing gift entry and sending acknowledgments. If that's the part spurting you out, identify it and ask for that support. You know, fundraisers really do have a superpower. And the fuel that we bring to missions is so critical. And I don't know that we always lean into the power of that in asking for what we need to continue to be successful.
- [32:21]
Julia Campbell
We definitely don't. I love that. All right, well, last question. If you could reframe one core belief about fundraising across the entire sector, what would it be?
- [32:31]
Jill Vorondran
It's that our job is to ask for money. I think that just reduces this process to a financial transaction and neglects the deep, the relational, the critical aspects of creating an ongoing relationship with the people who are supporting our work. And it's, you know, understanding the values of the people who support us and focusing on the genuine contribution that they're making to the work in support, instead of it just being about asking for money to fund this year's fiscal budget. You know, I think that's the biggest change that we could make is that whether it's through direct mail, whether it's through digital platforms, or it's in face to face relationships, it is about creating that genuine, authentic connection that then leads to financial and other contributions and not putting, you know, the financial relationship first. Also not putting it aside like that. That's our. Our job is to ensure that our missions can continue to function. But it's doing it in a transformational way and not in a transactional way.
- [33:41]
Julia Campbell
Not putting it first, but not putting it aside. So important.
- [33:46]
Jill Vorondran
Love that.
- [33:47]
Julia Campbell
So many great quotes. I still am loving the indoor cats. Outdoor cats. Everyone listening. I'm sure you have already self identified as an indoor cat or outdoor cat. I think. I don't know which one. I was When I was a director of development, I think I was both. I had pieces of me that would love to go to the gala and do the events and go to donor meetings. But then some days I just wanted to sit and like, write the appeal or write thank you letters. So, yeah, that's so interesting. But there are definitely people that have those personalities, like a dominant part of their personality.
- [34:19]
Jill Vorondran
Yeah, I'm such an indoor cat and then I just, through my role, I have to pretend to be an outdoor cat sometimes. But then like after the gala or after the meeting, I'm so excited to like, get back to my spreadsheet. So.
- [34:32]
Julia Campbell
Yeah. Oh, I love it so much. Where can people connect with you, Jill, and learn more about Covenant House?
- [34:38]
Jill Vorondran
Well, for me personally, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I love connecting with other fundraisers there and so you can find me Jill Vorndrand on LinkedIn and then if you wanna learn more about Covenant House, and I hope that you do, Covenanthouse.org is the portal for all things related to us and you can follow find our socials on there, but you can find, really find a deep dive into what causes youth, homelessness and all the great work that we're doing to end it.
- [35:05]
Julia Campbell
Thank you so much for taking the time, for sharing your wisdom, sharing your expertise and just really, you know, I'm. I'm hoping, I know that this is going to be an inspiring conversation for people on the ground and for leaders in the sector. So thanks so much, Jill.
- [35:21]
Jill Vorondran
Oh, Julia, thank you. And thank you for the great work that you're doing in an industry like ours that where we're all sort of figuring it out on our own. It's been so great to have voices like yours helping to be wayfinders and shine the light on the way to move forward. So really appreciate that.
- [35:42]
Julia Campbell
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening.
- [35:47]
All the way to the end.
- [35:48]
If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on instagram, instagram @juliacampbell77.
- [36:20]
Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.