← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
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A
Nonprofit work, especially in 2026, isn't easy. But the good news is you do not have to figure it out all alone. You're invited to join me and hundreds of other change makers at Bloomerang's annual conference, GiveCon, coming up May 17th through 20th. And trust me, this is the place to be if you want to sharpen your fundraising and communication skills. I'll be there leading a session called Front. From Passive Posts to Powerful Campaigns Social media that drives donations. If you've been wanting to turn your content into real conversion, you're going to love this one. But here's the part you don't want to miss. Givecon's lowest registration rate is available right now. For the next few weeks, this is the perfect moment to grab your ticket and save your organization some budget. Join me and an incredible community of nonprofits at Givecon. Learn more and register@givecon.com that's G-I V E C O N.com now on to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, this is Nonprofit Nation. Your host, Julia Campbell here. So happy to be with you wherever you're listening today in your car and your earbuds. I am incredibly excited about this guest and this topic. I watched the TEDx talk, which I will put in the show notes, and just got incredibly fired up for a brand new way to think about how to get people participating, how to stop raising awareness and actually generate action, and then more specifically, how to harness technology to really improve child welfare, especially in the foster care sector. So my guest today is Ben sand, founder and CEO of the Contingent. And I'm going to put all of these links in the show notes. I just want to kind of dive right in because this is going to be a really great conversation and I'm so inspired by the work of the Contingent. But Ben, can you tell us? Well, first of all, welcome.
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B
Thank you Julia.
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A
Welcome. And tell us a little bit about, you know, your journey and kind of what led you to the work you're doing today?
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B
Yeah, so I. I've been involved in working in the nonprofit sector my entire career. So for the last 25 years or so, have been involved in working with young people. And the Contingent started out as an organization that was wanting to think differently about complex social issues, recognizing that at the end of the day, there really are not a ton of rules. Actually. There's, you know, ingenuity and ideation, you know, is something that has been a part of my kind of personal DNA. And we built an organization to try to inspire innovation and to imagine how to think differently and do things differently. I first got involved in the child welfare space in 2012 with some friends that were introducing me to the complexities of what was going on in the foster care system in the state of Oregon. Oh, yes, and we have a lab at our organization, and through this big question into the lab, and that was, what would it look like to overwhelm the state with community members that were signing up to say, how can we help? How can we get involved to participate in serving kids and families more effectively? And so, you know, certainly where we started in 2012, we're in a very different place today. Certainly data and technology has played a key role in that, and I know we're here to talk about that a little bit today. But, you know, my heart's passion has. Has been to serve vulnerable kids and families. And I think we've cracked the code on how to do that at scale.
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A
I love that. Yeah. So the Contingent is a venture nonprofit. What does that mean in practice? Like, how does that look different than maybe the traditional nonprofit structure we're used to?
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B
Yeah. So we have a deep appreciation for asking the question, where are there opportunities for innovation? So we definitely have some initiatives that we hold on to that we run, but we also are consistently throwing new ideas into what we call our action lab. The premise there is to always try to stay on the pre. On the forefront of innovation and to invest in that. So what makes us a venture nonprofit is that while we have some stalwart, very stable initiatives, we also are consistently pushing on new ideas and seeking capital from, you know, donors and interested parties that are frustrated or want to imagine what an innovative future could look like. And, you know, over the last, gosh, 17 years or so, we've started, know, 20 different nonprofit initiatives, many of which have, you know, spun out into their own nonprofits. Some crashed and burned, but, well, some of them scaled as well. So part of it is recognizing, you know the importance of taking some risks to try things differently.
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A
What was the moment when you kind of realized that technology, I mean, you say in your TED Talk, technology is used to promote everything in our lives from our consumer behavior, you know, to our political behavior. The algorithms are used to divide us and entice us and entertain us. And what was that sort of aha moment where you thought, why aren't we using this for good? Like, why aren't we using this to specifically engage more people in the, in the foster care system?
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B
Yeah, I, I think that, you know, there was a very particular moment of discernment actually. Um, and where, where I realized that the complexity of the problem was not being matched by our approach to trying to solve it. We had started an initiative in Oregon called every child in 2012. And that was, that was an initiative that was designed to use what I'll call grassroots or ground game recruiting strategies to get community members involved in the lives of kids and families that were impacted by foster care. We were growing across the state of Oregon. But in 2019, the state of Oregon was sued in a class action lawsuit. And interestingly, Julia, right now in our country, there are 32 states that are currently being sued in class action lawsuits because there is a crisis shortage of foster families. And so when the state of Oregon was sued, the Secretary of state also audited the human services agency. That's when the state of Oregon called and asked if we would be willing to take over the responsibility for foster family recruitment for the whole state. And that was the moment, I think, for me, where there was like an ethical dilemma that was presented. On the one hand, how do you say no when you're being asked to cement a public private partnership in the state where you live and you know, you're deeply vested in improving outcomes for kids. On the other side of that, it's. How do you say yes if you don't actually believe that you have a solution that can meet the need? And in this case, you know, we were being asked to kind of hold the lightning rod by submitting our data every month to the Secretary of State, to the governor's office. And you know, my conviction was we could set up a booth at the county fair, the farmer's market, or set out lawn.
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A
Oh, I know. Church presentation I've done.
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B
You could do that. Exactly, exactly. All day, every day, 365 days a year, and we wouldn't even scratch the surface of actually meeting the need. So it was in kind of that, that moment of discernment where I read this article actually in the Atlantic called When the Nerds Go Marching In.
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A
Okay, I'm putting it in the show notes.
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B
Yes, yes.
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A
And this article basically, when the Nerds Go Marching In.
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B
That's right. Yeah. The article highlights how the RNC and the DNC built these big election machines that have transformed how, how mobilized, how they mobilize votes and donations and volunteers. And that was the realization. The kind of the epiphany for me was, man, what if we hacked those machines and how they work and figured out how to build one for the foster care use case? And long story short, that's where we went into the lab with Microsoft and they were very generous to us and. And well, the rest is history from there. So.
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A
Oh my gosh. This I think resonates with so many people, especially someone like me. I started my career in working in domestic violence and I was doing outreach and development and fundraising and just going to all of those county fairs and going to churches every Sunday and going to Kiwanis and going. Anyone that would take me tabling, giving out brochures. What I love that you said in your, your TED talk is you were very caffeinated because you were just like doing like one on one coffee.
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B
Totally. My office was my car and my existence was coffee meetings for days. So we were caffeinated as hell, but we were failing at finding the foster parent.
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A
Exactly. So. Well, I do think that that kind of ground game is so important in the beginning to understand, you know, because for me, it helped me understand and the issues and the questions that people were asking. But then at some point, like you were saying, you have to figure out how to scale it and how to reach people. So then you're talking about your model, the air game. Can you talk about that?
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B
And yeah, yeah, how that works once we identified, like, hey, let's go for this, let's. Let's see if we can figure out how to use data and technology to, you know, revolutionize how we mobilize community. The way I would describe it is the first thing that you, you've got to do, and this would be true for all of your listeners, regardless of the social issues, is to really understand the problem. So yes, you know, we published some research on around, on multiple domains, but basically identified the fact that only 5% of the population will ever even consider becoming a foster parent. We studied, you know, we did the nation's largest study in foster families by asking them questions regarding their attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, their convictions, their key questions, their, their concerns about becoming Foster parents and identified these basically eight typologies of different individuals in the community that are more likely to say yes to becoming foster parents. And so, wow.
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A
You know, using, like, brain science.
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B
It's. It's absolutely. It's brain science. Understanding psychographics and trying to speak the language to people that are. That have a. That are more predisposed to say yes.
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A
Yes.
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B
So it's trying to understand what makes a successful foster parent who's likely to say yes, and then understanding where are we needing homes? And we conducted this gap analysis to understand where are kids being removed from their parents? Where are they being placed after they're being placed into foster care, and what kinds of homes do we need? And there's a big collision of data that takes place at that point. Who are the people in the community that are more likely to say yes? How do we talk to them effectively? But through this lens of a message that's not just, hey, we need more foster parents, but it's to say, Julia, in your zip code. There are currently three children in foster care, two of which are siblings who have been split. They're 13 and 17. You know, we have a sense that you might be a great foster parent. Do you want to talk to us about these children? And part of what the kind of delivery system for that has been using large data sets and market segmentation strategies and targeted marketing to be able to connect the right message to the right person in a language that they speak and understand, to address their motivations and concerns, but also to talk to them in a way that helps them understand the problem in their neighborhood.
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A
It localizes. Localizes it.
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B
Yeah.
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Rather than just being like, this is an issue that is abstract. Like, if, you know, if I hear a data point, like, I think you said a data point in your talk. 350,000.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Children need foster, need a home, or need some kind of foster care, and then 200,000 homes actually qualify for it. So there's this huge gap there. So I think if I. Yeah, like, if I hear that data point. But if you're saying, julia, there are two children in your community. I mean, I'm a mom of two, so that really resonates. Have you gotten pushback from that at all, though? I'm just wondering, because, like, for me, I love targeted ads. I love ads that are relevant to me. But I wonder, what's the feedback you've been getting?
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B
Yeah, there definitely are. Every now and then, you get that person that's like, stop texting me, stop emailing me. Stop sending me these ads, I'm not interested, you know, and so, you know, if there's any pushback in the market, it tends to be people that are feeling like we're chasing them around the Internet, you know, like happens to all of us when we're shopping for shoes or a new thing, you know, and you know, there can be some frustration there. I think what we've found though is that our state partners, we work in multiple states now across the country, have a deep appreciation for using these strategies insofar as what we're doing is not just recruiting more families for them, but we're actually recruiting the right families to serve the right kids. And so, you know, we've been holding this space as a market disruptor and in the end, you know, the results kind of speak for themselves. And so we've seen this increased appetite for this kind of approach and this kind of strategy. Recognizing that the situation is so dire.
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A
I could see this being leveraged in a lot of different cause and issue areas. So specifically, how are you delivering these messages? You talked a little bit about like how you get the data. I know you do geotargeting as well, but how are you and talk about that? I think my listeners won't really. Maybe they're not as familiar with that.
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B
Yeah, yeah. What I would say is that I agree. I think these strategies can be employed across multiple different domains in the social sector. This isn't just necessarily a foster secure solution. I have like really strong convictions about the data and technology revolution that we're living in as a sector and what we need to do as a sector to be prepared to respond to the opportunities that are in front of us. No doubt about it. What I would say, particularly to answer your question in terms of how these messages are being delivered, it's a combination of things. It can be outbound, email or text message, but a lot of it is geotargeting ads based off of what we understand in terms of pattern behavior of the demographics that we think are more likely to be successful, where they go to consume news and to consume information online, but also certain behavior in terms of where they shop and other consuming consumer behavior. And we can kind of geotarget, create like little fences around where folks live and work and hyper localized content to be able to speak to folks directly where there is a need. And so and again these are strategies that are being employed by businesses and all kinds of different, you know, different organizations. It's just that the non profit sector has lagged behind in utilizing these Strategies. So it's, it's the, you know, I'm not a technologist. I'm not, you know, some sort of like marketing genius. I was like an English major. So, you know, but I think, well,
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A
the messaging, the writing, the messaging is important.
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B
I think what it comes down to is in the end, these are tools that are available. By asking the right research questions and employing the right fundamental technologies, a lot of different organizations can do it. Which is why I was so excited to talk to you today, because I'm a huge proponent that, you know, this is a, a new way for organizations like ours to think about serving others.
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A
Absolutely. I mean, I teach digital fundraising, I teach courses and webinars and I speak about the use of digital tools. And it's so interesting the, some of the pushback or some of the skepticism and some of the fear in the sector, especially around AI, especially around things like geotargeting, privacy policies. Why do you think we're just, you know, what is your advice? I guess to someone listening, I think my listeners are, are pretty on board. I would say that my listeners are very open minded, but they might be getting, you know, they might be getting obstacles and challenges from their board or from their supervisor. Like, how would you encourage them to, to speak about this?
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B
Yeah, I would say that, you know, it's fundamentally important to start at the board level and to start at the executive level to make sure that you're asking the right security questions. You know, we've got all kinds of different policies and different security protocols. And when you do get involved in this kind of work, it there are some upfront costs that are significant. And part of what we have determined to do, whether that's with our cybersecurity policies or even AI policies, et cetera, is to have a very transparent conversation on the front end. And so there's some really great work that's happened out of Microsoft and all kinds of different AI policies or cybersecurity policies, data policies that can seem a little too white paper ish when you start fronting those things with this strategic conversation that says we want to be able to mobilize people and resources at a new level of effectiveness. These tools are available to us. How do we fundamentally wrap ourselves around the ethics of them and our own security policies and how do we analyze even our technical abilities on the front end? You know, and so this is, I think, for those, those folks that are concerned about those conversations, my encouragement is to have them head on and to recognize that people make decisions differently now and I, I think there's ethic question, ethics questions around how it's done, but ultimately, when considering where the world is headed and how people make decisions, I would ask, is it, there's also an ethical question of not considering employing these tools and strategies because you know, quite frankly, people, we need more people to get involved and this is a far, in a way more effective way to do it.
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A
So something you said in the TED talk that really resonated with me was the problem is not awareness. Oh my gosh, I talk about this all the time. The problem is that you have never been asked to participate. And what's so interesting, giving Tuesday Data Commons, they published a study that found that like $15 billion is being left on the table for very specific reasons. And one of those reasons is we're not asking everyone to give, you know, we're not involving everyone, we're not asking everyone to participate. And can you talk more about that? Like how can we escape this hamster wheel of we think we've got to raise awareness, but actually inviting people in?
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B
Yeah, yeah. Our, our learning has been that, you know, especially when, when making such a big ask, which is to consider families to become foster parents, if 5% of the population will ever even consider it, less than 1% of the population will ever do it. So you're looking for a needle in a field of haystacks.
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A
Yep.
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B
And so what we are trying to do in, in our approach is to create an engagement continuum that says, hey, thanks for clicking on this ad or thanks for coming to this website. You know, hey, if you can't be a foster parent, that's okay. A lot of people are not going to be able to do that. But here's 17 different ways for you to get involved. And so there's a, there's a moves management process that can be digitized and there's a way for folks to explore, you know, what their level of involvement can look like. And what we found is that when folks start out in donating a tangible item or getting involved in a one time volunteer opportunity or you know, even a long term relational opportunity, they're moving towards as they're being, as they're experiencing an exposure to the complexity of the issue, they're moving towards a deeper yes. And so, you know, the question, and this is what's, this is what technology gives us the ability to do is, is to make those asks consistently instead of it just being, you know, this person volunteered this one time and we wrote their name down on like a spreadsheet.
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A
You know, it's like we sign up sheet at the county fair.
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B
Exactly. Exactly. How do we digitize the, the experience so that they're consistently being invited to take a deeper level of engagement? And, and so, you know, as I've shared, you know, it's not everybody can be a foster parent, but everybody can do something.
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A
I, I think that is so important because where I see non profits getting it wrong, a lot of time is just going right to like the fundraising ask.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's sort of like, well, there are like moves in management. There are a lot of different ways someone can get involved. There's a lot of different ways, like they could share on social media or invite a friend or donate an item like you said. For me, I just thought of something. I'm. Because I'm always thinking about like what my clients and my listeners would be asking with such a nuanced and complicated issue.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I mean how I feel like people are going to be asking in their minds, like how do you, how did you come up with that message? And are you, you're constantly iterating it and like what, how would you recommend if someone say I'm thinking of. When I worked at the domestic violence shelter, we really wanted volunteers to answer the hotline.
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B
Okay.
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A
But I can't even imagine doing an ad. I wouldn't even know what to. Because it's such a nuanced issue and often polarizing. Because as we know, everything is unfortunately polarizing today.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. So this is where I think the non profit sector actually has a distinct advantage.
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A
Yes.
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B
And, and that is when you get a high fidelity volunteer that's engaged and, or when you have people that are there. These people are motivated by certain things. And I think where it starts is by listening to the people that have already said yes. What drove them, what motivated them to get involved? And what we know is that there's those people represent, as I've shared earlier, these, we'll call them Personas or typologies. There are some people that are more likely to get involved in serving folks that are impacted by domestic violence. And so understanding who are those that have said yes, what drove their involvement, what were their key motivations? And instead of just saying like we need help, the premise of what's available and some of the tools that we can use now is to speak directly to people in the first person and say, are you, have you ever thought this? Are you motivated by this? Does this, is this an issue that concerns you? And to speak to them in the first person that. And to really listen to the people that are already engaged and begin to run a B tests, you know, and so, you know, it's not going to work. Every out of the gate, every ad, every message is not necessarily going to directly appeal, but because we can create lookalike audiences on a lot of these platforms and a lot of these tools that are, are basically increasing the likelihood that the message is going to get in front of the right people.
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A
Yes.
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B
Part of what we need to do on the front end is ask who are the people that are currently saying yes, what motivates them? And then you can, you can increase the likelihood that your message is going to talk to more people that are motivated by the same kinds of things that the, that you're, well, let's call it. Your base is currently motivated by. And so, you know, that's where it's, it's trial and error. And there is a science to understanding, you know, how we, how we are effectively talking to people that are more likely to get involved in regardless of whatever the issue is. So for us, it's foster parenting, you know, but I think that it can translate to a lot of different domains.
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A
So what's next for the contingent? You said you're, you're. You're scaling into other states. So, like, what's next?
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B
Yeah, so we, we. Since we've rolled out this solution in Oregon, we've seen record results. And so in the last couple years, we've taken over the responsibility for foster family recruitment for the entire state of Arkansas and the state of Tennessee and just completed our first kind of wave of national expansion in our country. Right now there's a really inspiring conversation happening about how we solve this problem. And so the contingents preparing to expand to the next kind of wave of different jurisdictions. And we're in that discernment period right now. And you know, it's. It's one of those kind of, for such a time as this moments. And I have no problem getting out of bed in the morning and imagining, you know, how we can use some of these tools to serve more jurisdictions and ultimately more kids that are being impacted by foster care.
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A
I, I think it's very interesting because people, you know, there's, there's people that question the validity of the nonprofit sector. You know, they think, well, why can't government just do it? Or, you know, what do my taxes pay for? I'm not going to donate. And just knowing that government, I mean, really has failed on this issue, like, so epically, I mean, taking over the entirety of three different states. I think it's inspiring to see the sector step up in that way. But do you feel like this is a trend? Like, do you think that the, like, governments, local governments maybe can't shift as fast or be as innovative because of bureaucracy? I'm not sure, like what's holding them back.
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B
You know, to me, to me, what poises our sector so uniquely is, you know, I would say our currency and the currency that we depend upon is more than money or anything else is trust.
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A
Yes.
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B
You know, and ultimately I think what's happened is a lot of governments have broken trust with the community. And, and that's for a myriad of reasons. And it certainly depends on the social issue that we're, that we're talking about. But in the case of child welfare, you know, there's a lot of folks in the community that are concerned about surveillance or overreach or the level of effectiveness. And what makes foster care unique is that at the end what the government needs to solve this challenge is they need community, community members or neighbors to say yes to care for their neighbors. And I think the government struggles in making that ask. I think there's a lot of people that are concerned about the governor, the government being the primary liaison into their lives. And, and that's not just a foster care issue. I think that's true in a lot of different issues. And so, you know, I have a huge amount of respect for people that choose to work, you know, for local government, state government, recognizing that governments do have a role. Oftentimes those are kind of liability minded, bureaucratically organized organizations. And our sector has an opportunity to step into those relationships and, and to be positively disruptive by innovating in that space. And so if there ever was a time for our sector to get organized around the right fundamentals regarding technology, you know, it's now because I think that state governments are, are not built to talk to the populace in a way that increases the empathy quotient and involvement. And you know, it's going to require private innovation for it, for us to get it done.
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A
Wow. Well, let's talk about AI and maybe some of your favorite tools, like how have AI tools, digital tools specifically, improved maybe efficiency in your work other than maybe marketing? But we can talk about marketing too.
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B
Yeah, Julia, this is like, this is like my hobby horse topic. You know, for those of you that are listening, just to be clear, when we first started on this journey, we were run, we were running like a zombie technology system where the CRM didn't connect to the donor management system and it didn't connect connect to the data storage solution. And you know, one of the things that I've, I've, you know, tried, I've kind of been on the stump is, you know, to encourage organizations, you know, to really consider the fundamental first step, which is, is your tech stack aligned? Does your CRM connect to how you store data, connect to your visualization tools, connect to other forms of, you know, tools that can be automated? And it always starts with the cornerstone is your CRM. So we're a Microsoft shop, obviously I'm a huge fan of the tools that we've been able to develop with Microsoft. But you know, organizations I think need to first try to analyze like is our system aligned? Does the stack line up and if, if not and, and I'll just say that, you know, when we first started on this journey, the answer was fundamentally no. I know a lot of my colleagues in the sector have legacy systems that they're trying to patchwork together and that's a challenge. And I think the first wave of investment to harness the power of AI and to harness the power of what's available is to make sure that your CRM aligns with your auto, your ability to automate and different tools that are oftentimes found within that CRM, that cornerstone CRM and that syncs with your cloud storage. And as wonky as that sounds, it's that integration that really is going to empower AI solutions moving forward because it's going to enhance your security when you can get that stack aligned, but it's also going to give you the opportunity to do that. So with Microsoft we can use Copilot or we can use Azure and other forms of AI tools as we build our own bespoke data environment and create our own data lakes. Like we can use those tools internally in a hyper secure way. And so I think the sector needs to lean towards that because a lot of the AI tools that we're using in the sector are around productivity.
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A
Right.
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B
And we certainly use those tools for productivity as well. But as it relates to solving a social issue. Yeah, you know, that's where to your earlier comment, that's where executive teams and boards start to get nervy. It's like how much money are we going to put into the, the fundamentals of this thing in order to be able to access what's possible? And I would just say it's the cost of not doing it is higher than the cost of doing it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because of the speed by which we're going to see innovation take place. So if you're wondering, you know, should we make that investment with that hundred thousand dollars that we've had set aside, and that's a lot of money, you know, the answer, I would argue, if you're on the fence on that is fundamentally, yes, you should make the investment, because it's going to be a race. And I'm really concerned that our sector is going to lag behind in terms of using the tools that are going to be emerging. And so AI is a bit of a buzz term, and it's not something that solves everything. But there is an opportunity for us to really harness the power of what AI can do. But you got to get your data environment locked in first.
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A
No, I completely agree. Oh, no. That's so hopeful. So I think, you know, speaking to a lot of nonprofit leaders, especially right now, I mean, as we're recording, like, we're at war, like there's all sorts of horrific things happening across the world and in the United States, what gives you hope? And especially, I do think, dealing with the issue that you are dealing with. Yeah. How you get up every morning, you do it. What are some words of advice for nonprofit leaders struggling?
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B
Yeah, I think what's. I think what's fundamentally true is, and what gives me hope is as we've been trying to innovate and push into some new strategies, what we have found is that the community is ready to engage. And as there are global concerns and local concerns, and as we're seeing governments continually be strapped by financial challenges, there is not an empathy problem. There is not a. There is not a challenge as it relates to. Will the community step up? I believe that the community will step up. We have to figure out how to talk to them and engage them a little bit differently now. But, but I, you know, we just have had a record quarter. We've seen more volunteers and more foster families step forward in the three states we're serving than any other time in our organization's history. And so neighbors want to love their neighbors. We need to talk to our neighbors in ways that they consume information and give them the ability to respond in a way that is simple, clear, and quickly activates. And if we can do that, I, I'm. I'm deeply optimistic about our future as long as we can think differently about how we invite people in.
- [36:20]
A
Simple, clear, and quickly activates. I'm on the school board here, so that very. That really resonates with me. We're trying to get our budget passed and it's been challenging. But simple, clear gets people activated. Ben, this has been amazing. This is wonderful. I'm so glad you're on the podcast. Where can people connect with you, learn more about you and the work that you do?
- [36:44]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Please Find me on LinkedIn. I would love to be your friend. You can check out our work@thecontingent.org or just Google every child and you'll see some of our work in Oregon, Arkansas and Tennessee and, and hopefully beyond.
- [37:00]
A
Well, thanks again so much for being here. And yeah, I'm sure you'll get a lot of new connections and a lot of new interests. So just thanks so much for your powerful work.
- [37:10]
B
Thanks Julia. Thanks for having me on.
- [37:16]
A
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.