← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How Philanthropy Can Step Up In This Moment with Sherece West-Scantlebury
00:36:26
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- [00:00]
A
You pour your heart into every single fundraising appeal. You juggle a dozen different tools trying to piece together a clear picture of your supporters. But what if your fundraising platform was built with a deep understanding of those challenges? That's the difference a purpose built giving platform like Bloomerang can make. Bloomerang customers aren't just fundraising. They are seeing a 27% larger one time gifts than the industry average. They're growing their supporter base by an average of 12% year over year. And that's the confidence to know who to ask and when. It's the joy of seeing your community rally behind you with greater generosity. It's turning passion into unstoppable momentum. Your purpose is limitless and your fundraising tools should be too. Learn how you can start raising more@jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang that's jcsocialmarketing.com Bloomer B L O O M E R A N G All right, onto the show. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm gonna sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
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B
Hi.
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A
Hello everyone. This is Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Today we are going to answer the question, what does it take to lead with purpose when you're working in philanthropy and in the third sector today? And how can foundations and organizations lead in these moments of political uncertainty and during periods of reduced federal support for nonprofits and also decimated trust? I was actually just reading a study about America's decimated trust in institutions and in nonprofits, which is pretty unfortunate. But my guest today, I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Shareese West Scantlebury, President and CEO of the Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation. And Shareese joins us to reflect on how philanthropy can really help lead in uncertain times. With decades of experience in public policy, community development and systems change, Dr. West Scantlebury shares how the Winthrop Rockefeller foundation is leaning in to its 50 year legacy to support nonprofits through advocacy, trust based funding and bold equity focused strategies. Shareese, welcome to Nonprofit Nation.
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B
Thank you, Julia. It's an honor And a pleasure to be here. Excited for the conversation.
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A
So as the foundation marks its 50th anniversary, I mean, it's a huge milestone. How are you using this particular moment to reflect not just on the history, but what is urgently needed right now?
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B
Yeah, that's a powerful question and one I've been sitting with deeply at the foundation. Wrf. When I say wrf, that's the Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation. I say WRF way more than I say the Winthrop Rockefeller Foundation. Yes, they're a mouthful. Turning 50 for us is not just a milestone, but, you know, it's a mandate, quite honestly. Like we've spent the past five decades rooted in the governor's legacy. So Winthrop Rockefeller was a two term governor in the state of Arkansas, and so thus I refer to him as Governor Rockefeller. The Governor's legacy of inclusive progress and courageous leadership is one that we've been rooted in for the past 50 years. Not just under my leadership, but even my predecessors. But, you know, anniversaries are not just a time for looking back, but also an opportunity to ask, you know, are we doing enough right now? Are we taking the risks that this moment demands? And we're using this anniversary to kind of sharpen what we do on what's urgent, such as closing the access to capital gap, building economic mobility for Alice families. Alice is asset, limited, income, constrained, employed. Close to 50% of the families in Arkansas are Alice families. They work hard, they have jobs, but they are not able to make ends meet. And so for us, it's very urgent in our state in particular, to ensure that there are not policies at the state level or local level that hurt Alice families or practices at the systemic level that hurt close to 50% of our families. So that's urgent for us. Supporting rural leaders, women leaders, leaders of color, who are often under resourced and overburdened is also urgent for us. So we've doubled down on trust based philanthropy and our equity investments, not as a trend, but as a strategy for transforming Arkansas, quite honestly. So for us, this moment calls for philanthropy to be more than a funder, but really to be a partner in building power shifting systems and changing what's possible in Arkansas and the South. So, you know, we honor our past, but we also are trying to look at a different future. And that's how we're showing up at 50 of not just celebrating, but just stepping up in this moment of urgency.
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A
I love that what you said. It's not just a milestone, it's a mandate. Because right if the community has been in support of your work for 50 years. What will the next 50 years look like? And that is just a huge testimonial to your work and your ability to stay relevant, but also your ability to navigate trends because so much has happened and the last 50 years. But I love that you're not looking at it as we're just going to pat ourselves on the back and talk about how great we are. We're really going to double down digging our heels and figure out what the next 50 years are going to look like and not just jump on trends, but really talk about transformation. I think a lot of foundations are not as forward thinking. Maybe not a lot. I shouldn't generalize. And all my foundation listeners. I know. I love you. Yeah.
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B
Okay.
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A
Where are you seeing across the industry?
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B
Well, you know, philanthropy has to be bold. When government retreats, right when we are in these uncertain times, that's what you hope for, but I don't think that's what we hope.
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A
We're hoping.
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B
We're still hoping that's what you hope for, but I don't think that's what we're getting. Like, I really don't. You know, I've seen so many of my colleagues change language in their websites, you know, eliminate equity, eliminate all conversations and approaches that has to do with ensuring that in our case, all Arkansans have access to opportunity and what they need to thrive and be successful in Arkansas. Not just some, but all. So for, you know, this is just not the time for foundations to pull back or play it safe. And anyway, I just don't understand why, like we, we, we have more freedoms, more opportunities. This is just not that moment. And at wrf, you know, leadership means stepping into the gap, whether it's through funding, advocacy, investing in narrative grassroots organizations that are closest to the issues. Like, this is where you double down, step up, build voice, get in the fight. We also know that communities facing policy rollbacks and funding cuts don't need handouts. They need partners who trust them and fund them fully and follow their lead. Like, that's the behavior philanthropy should be taking at that time. And that's why at wrf, we made long term, unrestricted investments in leaders and local change makers who are fighting every day for equity, often without a spotlight. You know, our job is to amplify their voice, sustain their vision and support them and work with them, not be a further barrier hindrance or someone else in the ecosystem retreating.
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A
No, I really agree. And I think that the voices need to be louder right now as well. How do you like, what is your advice to a nonprofit leader who is thinking the same way but might be facing adversity from their board or even from their higher ups? They might be scared that they'll lose funding or they'll lose partnerships. If they are bold, what is your advice to them?
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B
So we have bold leaders in our nonprofit sphere across the country and absolutely in Arkansas. That boldness, you can't shrink boldness, because changing systems, either you want status quo or you want change. And either you boldly argue for keeping things as they are, or you boldly argue to see something different or to move to a different future. So, you know, my advice to nonprofit leaders would be, first, know your value. Too often nonprofit leaders, especially women and people of color, are expected to do more with less and justify their existence at every turn. And you are solving problems philanthropy cannot fix that deserves respect and recognition. I would also say tell your story. Be clear, compelling, unapologetic about your impact and your needs. Funders are people, and people respond to authenticity, not perfection. And we don't expect it to be perfect. So tell those stories. And those stories are just so important. It's important not just for funders, but it's important for fundraising, of course, for informing your own constituents and who you're working on behalf of. But it's also important for just telling yourselves, like, wow, we're doing this. Like, we're doing the thing right. We are making progress or we're. We're doing this. So, you know, that story becomes important for many reasons other than just for funders. And also, I would say build collective power. Like, you can't do this work alone, form alliances, share resources. Which I know in moments of scarcity, everyone is dog eat dog, but that's actually antithetical, the way in which we should be behaving right now. Like, you know, form those alliances, share resources, and support each other's leadership because that's really how movements grow and how systems change.
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Absolutely.
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I love that.
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A
I think that a lot of organizations, like you said about the scarcity mindset, are really thinking, oh, this is my piece of the pie, or how can I make my piece of the pie bigger? I don't really have time or I don't really want to support other organizations because I'm so focused on the day to day. But I agree with, you know, your value. Advocate for your value, advocate for the work that you do, especially right now when a lot of organizations are seeing an uptick in need, but, you know, a downtick in funding. So it Is, yeah, how that works.
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B
One of the things that has happened here in Arkansas that we've supported through, mainly through general operating support, is many of our immigrant serving organizations are actually working together to share lawyers because they're expensive to share information about lawyers, to gather good data, to do the research, like the accurate research that talks about the impact of immigration in Arkansas. And they're just talking to one another. They're talking to one another out of necessity, but also that talking to one another and sharing information and sharing resources is also building their movement in the state. And so, yeah, this is not the time to say, let me get mine and hold onto it and grab onto it. This is actually that moment where you need more than just one voice or set of voices. You actually do need that collective power building.
- [12:05]
A
I always encourage my nonprofit clients to look at what they're doing in the broader scope of the movement, of the cause, of the issue that they're working on. Because if you think about it, you know, yes, people want to trust an organization in the community. If you. If you're well known in the community, that's one thing. But it's really the why you exist is your vision and the solution and the impact that you're creating. That's really the reason donors are attracted to you and people support you. So thinking about, what is this? Why in a broader context of other organizations, even nationally, I really encourage organizations to stop talking about themselves as their little tiny organization. But say we're part of a broader conversation here, and this is part of something like a little food bank is part of a broader conversation on food insecurity and boost equity. So how can, you know, how can organizations join that conversation? But that leads me to my next question, because the wrf, you know, has managed to, you know, adapt a strategy, maintain relevance over time. What are some of the strategies that you use to continue to reach people in new and different ways and adapt to the changing times we live in?
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B
Yeah. So we ourselves do our best to work with others. We have the Arkansas Impact Philanthropy, the Arkansas Black Philanthropy Collaborative, the Arkansas Funders Network. Like, we as funders in our state, we actually do work together. It comes and goes. It fits and starts. You know, it's always moving. And I know the audience can't see my hands moving, but, you know, it's always moving. Right. But that's absolute strategy that we've used to stay relevant and especially to stay relevant under at this moment in time. Because working together, again, you're stronger together, you do better together, you know, all those sayings about being together is important even here. So that working together keeps us relevant in the conversations and the like. We also don't see ourselves as a us them we fund. You do, we co create with grantees, we co creat design. We, you know, like we actually get in there with grantees understanding that there can be a power imbalance, understanding that we do have resources, understanding our voice is often heard. Right. But we leverage and use that for the betterment, not for ego or arrogance. And you know, some of my colleagues, not all, but some of my colleagues just see themselves as a resource provider or a grant provider, but really don't get into what is happening at a state, local, regional level. And we do. So that also has. And it's uncomfortable, it's time consuming, you know, it's expensive, you know, in terms of staff time and the like. But it is necessary to be a part of the change process in our state. So we don't look at ourselves. We know we're a funder, we know there's a power imbalance, we recognize that. But we also know that what we bring to the table is our voice and our standing in Arkansas and our access. And we use that access. And we use that access. I'll just say, say that then we also work with our grantees and our grantee partners on fundraising and raising money. Like we've bought national funders to Arkansas. I have actually personally made phone calls and written grant grant letters and requests and made introductions. But you know, using my network to ensure the sustainability and access to dollars for our grantees. So we think of ourselves more as just, just a funder, but an actual part of the change process in the state.
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A
Oh, wow. I think that's a great approach. And I know I read that WRF practices trust based philanthropy. Can you talk maybe about that approach some of the ways, like how you chose it and how you, how you maintain it. I think a lot of organizations, not nonprofits, would be very interested to learn more about it.
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B
Well, for us, trust based philanthropy, I like to say it reduces the noise. When we're nonprofits don't have to jump through hoops or reprove their worth every year or every two years. They can focus on their mission and not just staying afloat. So we give multi year general operating support. We don't micromanage how the dollars.
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A
People are just like out there saying hallelujah.
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B
Yeah, no, we've done that for quite a while. I mean it took me a while to get my board there. So I Don't want to make it sound like it was, it wasn't an easy task, but we got there and we've been doing it. Now I can't even remember when we did. Like I remember my early days there, we didn't and I got them there. And so I would say I've been there 18 years. I would say at least for the past 10 or more we've been doing general operating support. We generally don't micromanage how dollars are spent. That doesn't mean we don't track progress and the like, but we don't micromanage that. And we check in like partners, not like auditors because we know our grantees are the experts. When we audit, it is because of something drastic. You know, we had a couple of grantee partners who were in the news for some set of reasons. You know, in that case we actually do have to audit because we have to be good stewards of those dollars and ensure that they're being spent well and, and the like. Because if you're in the newspaper and some expose right then that does beg for a different relationship, at least at that moment. But nonetheless, you know, in our day to day or how we do our work, we check in like partners because we know grantees are, are the experts and we trust them to be the experts.
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A
Oh, so, so really is trust based. I wish that more foundations would get on board with this. What do you think the hesitancy is and how would you talk to a fellow peer about transitioning to this model? I know you said it didn't happen overnight. I'm sure there are so many obstacles. But what is like your first piece of advice if, if a foundation would like to dip their toes in the water, if trust based philanthropy.
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B
So often, Julia, I will say, and I am going to use the word often, don't have science behind it. So it's more anecdotal. It's boards and not necessarily CEOs or staff. And you get board members who feel or feel this need to do these longitudinal studies and time based studies and prove the grantee is worth the money. And you know, I mean, I mean really you do get boards who push this because the day to day of a grant maker, the change is so incremental and it takes a lot of time that it doesn't lend itself to pure scientific measures and approaches. And I'm a PhD, so you would think that I would have been bought in to the academia and the academic of the science of it. But I'm also a Community builder and know that this work is about iteration, it's about change, it's incremental. And this is about investing in a change process, not funding a nonprofit organization. And again, it just depends upon the point of view of board members and where they come from. So that was a long way of saying, I've noticed that it's been board members who want to push that more so than staff for the team or for staffs. And for us in particular, having to reprove your worth every year or every two years is just not helpful. It's not helpful. You proved it once. And you know, unless there's something catastrophic that occurs, like I said, we've had a couple of grantee partners in the newspaper and the like. You know, if it's something catastrophic, absolutely. But the work that's being done by leaders day in, day out, advocating, organizing, pushing for change, challenging systems, supporting residents, providing food at the food bank, asking hard questions around why is there hunger in our community or region in the first place? Like doing that kind of work, like let folks do their work, not spend hours and days and coming to you all's meetings and like stop, make a stop. The work needs to be done that these experts do. And it's important, it's important to civil society that we have a functioning, well structured, well resourced, nonprofit infrastructure to do and play the role that government should not, cannot play, legally can't play. Nonprofits need to be supported of all types because they are important to building voice and providing services and putting them through so many hoops to prove their mission, their worth, their value, their impact. Like it takes them off mission and it creates this. I need to stay afloat and I need to please my funder versus I need to serve my mission. And so that's why we've adapted it. That's why we have multi year general operating support. It's why we interview our grantees versus have them fill out long drawn out progress and expenditure reports. We used to do that, we don't anymore. Now of course there has to be an accounting of the money. So there is an expenditure report, but it's pretty straightforward. Direct, we interview grantees. What has been your impact? Tell us your story. What is the story of this grant? And we don't measure re upping or working with that grantee again based on some sets of criteria around how many meetings, meetings they did or did not have, how many houses they did or did not build, how many people did they reach? They said they would reach 200 people through their food bank, and they only reached 198. That's not even good ways of doing the work or approaching impact for us. It's about what is that impact. And we then translate that and work with the board and the general public on what progress our grantees are making towards equity. Oh, exactly.
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A
So how do you communicate this sort of more complex systems change work from a marketing lens, like in a way that still moves people emotionally and gets them to donate, gets them to sort of sign up?
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B
So I want to say for your audience, because I'm sure some people will go to the website, so we suck at that like a thousand times. We do. It's bad. It's bad. We do. We do have stories. Yeah, we have stories and we try our best to get them out timely, quickly, you know, organized. Like we do our. And we have so many stories and the like, we need to do a better job. So let me just. I'll just say that as a disclaimer out outright.
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A
Sure.
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B
You know, we talk about it through our newsletters. We talk about it in speeches. I get to talk about it in opportunities such as these. So for us, you know, we lead with people, not process. And systems change can feel and be abstract, of course. So we ground it in stories. We talk about, you know, the single mom that's navigating childcare as we fund. Several organizations that we fund are looking at how to get affordable, accessible childcare in Arkansas, especially for our Alice families. The Winthrop Rockefeller foundation has been funding quality access to childcare for years, even before I got there. And so we have a very long history in that. But we don't talk about the data and this and that. We talk about that single mom or that family that's just navigating childcare. Housing is a huge issue, broadband in our state. And so it is about those communities and how the broadband, when they do have access, has changed that community or when they don't, how it further hinders that community. You know, we talk about Alice workers with two jobs and no savings. You know, it's through those stories. And those stories are on our website and we do have those stories. So again, you will see them and hear them, but we do not do a good job of like, putting them out and talking about them systematically or. Yeah, as much as we could. We have tons of stories, hundreds of stories, and we're not telling them as quickly and systematically as we could. We can do better there.
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A
I think that's a really common challenge because even with something that seems straightforward, there are still so Many barriers and obstacles to storytelling. Effective storytelling, like whether it's bandwidth or capacity or confidentiality, it's just very, very challenging for a lot of organizations to communicate. The systems change work that they're doing, especially around issues like economic justice and equity and you know, how do you communicate or how do you measure that long term change when you're working on issues like this that are very, that.
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B
Are very long term, you know, we just do so for example, 70% of the kids in Arkansas do not read on grade level by the end of third grade for many years. We funded attendance works to work with a select number of communities to just learn about absenteeism. Like why is there chronic absenteeism especially in some areas. This is again where the data and the science does come in. You know, looking at those areas, where is there chronic absenteeism in the state and how can we use our resources to deploy resources, meaning attendance, work, grant resources, ta to look at that in some communities. And over time we actually were able to create a system of tracking absenteeism that the state of Arkansas adapted. Now saying that is like a little like oh, okay, that's interesting. But then you got to tell it in a sexy like non boring way.
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A
On how it's funny. I worked with attendance works how to do their storytelling and communicate.
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B
Because it's exactly so you know, you have to tell all that, get the data in. You know, it took years, right. So you can't tell a six year story. Right. And I got to tell a six year story in less than six minutes. And you know, the ups and downs and the ins and outs. But that is an accomplishment, right? That is an outcome. Our Alice, we used that data, got that data out to the general public and we actually had several companies use that data. Entergy Children's Hospital, a couple of others, partners that we have. And they actually looked at their pay structure, did some re budgeting and now all of their employees make a livable wage in Arkansas. Again, it's not.
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A
And that's a huge outcome, right?
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Yeah. And it's not just one or two, it's actually several of those. Right. And so much so that we have Alice at work where we're now those same employers have joined us in coalition to try to encourage others to do so in the state. And we're funding that movement, so to speak in the state of Arkansas. Like how did they do it? Why did they do it? Why? It was important in the city of Little Rock, for example, trying to get housing, affordable housing options, homeownership options to those who earn $50,000 or less. So we're working with banks and we're working with employers on how to look at how we can get housing options in the city for those who earn $50,000 or less. That's a systemic challenge and one in which philanthropy can organize groups who don't normally talk together and just look at those options. Now, we don't have a solution yet, but even getting there is its own story. And it'll take some time before we can figure out what instruments work, how and in what ways. We have our bank on initiative. And I'll stop after this because I got tons of examples after this example where Alice families and those who are unbanked simlit can't go to traditional banks, bank of America, Chase and the like, oftentimes because they don't have products for those families. They don't have products for a small business owner who just needs $5,000 to purchase some equipment for something. Right. They don't have products necessarily for someone who can't maintain a $500 or $1,000 checking account balance. So you get all these fees just simply because you can't maintain the balance. Right. So, you know, we have banks that we've organized to just look at that because again, with 50% of our families working but can't make ends meet, these additional fees and hoops are just hard. And if you want to own a home, how can that be done? So it's funding that type of systemic change to answer those hard questions or examine those hard questions. Eventually we'll get to solutions and answers because again, smart people coming together, we'll get there, but it's going to take some time. And what I learned in the banking in particular is that there's so many rules and regulations that just work against working families. That is no fault of the banks necessarily, but that just work against families. So we work and fund the community development financial institutions in our state who do have products for Alice families who will make that loan of $5,000 or thereabouts for that entrepreneur who's just. Who just needs a small grant or small loan to improve his or her business. You know, we do work with the CDFIs on mortgage products and the like to lend to Those who earn $50,000 or less to, you know, help them into home ownership. So, you know, for us, it is funding, again, in that example, those sets of financial institutions that do work and serve Alice families and ensuring that they have the resources and voice and the like that they need to make that happen.
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A
That's really powerful. It's understanding that systems change is not just one pillar. There's so many things that go into it, it's multiple.
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B
Which is why I deploy my team in such a way that we can work on these. Because, you know, grant making is one. One function of a foundation. Partnering and being a part of the change is yet another, in my opinion. Not everybody behaves that way, but in my opinion.
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A
So you have mentored many emerging leaders in philanthropy. What do you think they need most right now to thrive? What are the most important characteristics or what do you look for when you're mentoring an emerging leader?
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B
Well, one, they need room to lead. That's the first thing. And permission to challenge the status quo. I remember being an emerging leader some many years. I'll actually be 60 next week, you know, so 30 plus years ago, you know, challenging the status quo as a young person, oh my gosh, man, you would have. I mean, that's just throwing. That's just setting yourself up to be a target, right? And having the room to lead that, that, you know, that their thoughts and the like are valued. I would say to them, don't just inherit the table, like reimagine it. Create a whole new one. You know, if the table is mahogany, go get a maple one. Or, you know, if they got hardwood chairs, go get you some cushy chair. Like, I look forward to all that Gen Z and Xers and I don't know we are alpha. I don't even know what we're on.
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A
Yeah, I don't know what we're on. I think alpha.
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B
I think Alpha, whatever that is. I just look forward them, I look forward to them reimagining it. Like, that's what I look forward to. And us boomers, and I'm a Gen Xer, all of us just kind of getting out of the way and just reimagine it all. They also need community, both in the nonprofit sector and philanthropy is a part of the nonprofit sector. But philanthropy can be isolating, especially for leaders of color. So mentorship, peer support, and collective learning, I would say are critical just to staying grounded and growing with integrity. I just would say let them thrive, let them lead. And regardless of what we think, they're going to do it anyway. So, you know, it's about just supporting them in this new vision and reimagining all of it.
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A
I love that. That's a statement. Don't reinvent the table, don't worry about.
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B
It, redesign it, redo it, get you A whole new one.
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A
Get a whole new table. Make a whole new table. Mindy Kaling had a fantastic quote about that, something very similar. She's like, well, I wasn't being invited into the room, so I just went and created another room, you know, just went and absolutely did my own thing because I was not getting invited to the conversations. Absolutely where it happens. So I'll find that quote. I'll put it in the show notes. But I think that mentality is so needed, and that is absolutely what's going to help people lead. So I think, I mean, we've been wrapping up this conversation for nonprofits and people like me, just regular people feeling very disheartened by the current climate. By the current climate, even politically, but economically, philosophically, emotionally, everything that is going on, I think a lot of people are feeling not just overwhelmed and stressed, but disheartened and discouraged and wondering if the work is truly worth it and how can we keep going? What gives you hope? What keeps you going?
- [32:58]
B
You know, there are a couple of things. One is we've been here before. You know, we've been here before. I mean, we had a Great Depression, we had a great recession. We've had fabulous national leaders. We've had national leaders that suck times 12. We, you know, like, we. We've been here, we've been resource rich, we've been resource poor. Like, it's. It's been a challenge knowing that it's a cycle and you can move through it, and it's most likely better at the end. It's not fun going through it, but better at the end. Knowing that gives me hope. And that's kind of a faith walk. But knowing that gives me hope. The people give me hope. I mean, we have equity advocates and fighters and supporters. I see leaders every day who are making change with limited resources and endless resolve. Young organizer, immigrant advocates, black and brown women leading with vision and grit. I mean, these folk aren't giving up, so why should I? So, you know, that's it. And what gives me hope is they're not just surviving, they're building something better. They're thriving and looking to a different future. And if there's any complaint about philanthropy, it's that we're funding yesterday's problems and not tomorrow's opportunities. These folk are building better and looking at tomorrow's opportunities. And that's the future that I would like to fund or see funded.
- [34:22]
A
Wow, I love that. On that note, where can people find you online? Shareese, on the website, on LinkedIn. Where can they connect to learn more about you and the work that the foundation is doing.
- [34:31]
B
Sure. So the foundation is all pretty much on all platforms. WRF, AR. Our website is wrfoundation.org, facebook and the like. And I'm also on most of those platforms as well. So I should be easy to find or maybe after this, an easy target to find.
- [34:49]
A
No, I think you'll find I have a lot of listeners that will be very sympathetic. But I love a good debate. I love a good challenge listeners. I'd love to hear what you think.
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B
And it's not easy. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard at this moment and it's hard always. But it has to be done. And that's what leadership is.
- [35:07]
A
And I just always say to everyone listening, your work matters. You matter. Your voice matters. What you're doing matters. No matter what is happening today, it matters. So keep going, however imperfectly. Just keep doing the work.
- [35:23]
B
Appreciate it. Take care.
- [35:31]
A
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.