← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
How to Adapt Through Times of Change & Uncertainty with Sabine Gedeon
00:37:22
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- [00:00]
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Hey, nonprofit friends. Julia here. If you're already dreaming up your next big fundraising win, I want to let you in on something special. BloombergG's annual conference, GiveCon, is coming up May 17th through 20th, and trust me, this is the place to be if you want to sharpen your fundraising and communication skills. I'll be there leading a session called From Passive Posts to Powerful Campaigns Social Media that Drives Donations. If you've been wanting to turn your content into real conversion, you're going to love love this one. But here's the part you don't want to miss. Givecon's lowest registration rate is available right now through January. Prices go up on February 1st. So this is the perfect moment to grab your ticket and save your organization some of your budget. Join me and an incredible community of change makers at Givecon. Learn more and register@givecon.com that's givecon.com now on to the show.
- [01:05]
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Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your AUD audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place.
- [01:46]
A
Let's get started. Hi, welcome or welcome back to my loyal listeners to Nonprofit Nation. This is your host, Julia Campbell. Today's topic is something that is very relevant and timely. It's all about how to navigate organizational change. And this week my guest is Sabine Gideon, executive coach, transformational speaker and host of the Aligned Leader show podcast. She has 20 years of experience guiding leaders and organizations through critical moments of growth, change and reinvention. She's also one of my favorite people to follow on LinkedIn, so give her a follow. I'll put that link in the show notes. Sabine, welcome. And welcome back to the podcast.
- [02:41]
C
Yes, thank you, Julia. It's such an honor to be here having seen the growth because I think I was like one of the first few. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [02:51]
A
You definitely were one of the first guests in my first year of the podcast, announced in its fourth year and oh wow. I know, like how, how much has changed in those four years. Like everything's changing in just four minutes, four months. How much has changed in those four years. But I wanted to start off for my guests that are not familiar with your work as they should be. You focus on growth, mindset and change. Can you tell me about your work and sort of what led you to this particular vertical that you're so interested in, so good at?
- [03:29]
C
So I would say that I did not come out the womb wanting to focus on growth, mindset and change. But I think like most of us, as we navigate life and adulting and you know, just being a human being, we come to quickly notice that the few, there are a few constants in this world and change is definitely one of them. And, and so for me, having started my career in corporate, in hr, I had this like one lane path that I was striving for for a good 12 years. And I finally stepped into that role only to realize within six months that this was not it. Or at the very least, I could not see myself doing this for the next 30 or so years at the time. And so it forced me into what I like to call a mid career crisis because I didn't have a plan B, the type A version of me. It was go hard all the way towards this. And when I got there, it forced me to realize that, you know, I needed to figure out what brings me joy, what brings me, what gives me, what am I passionate about? And so it led me to ask myself two questions. When have I felt the most alive and impactful and when have I felt the most fulfilled? And between the two, it was when I was sitting across from internal employees and they were trying to figure out what they wanted to be when they grew up and we reverse engineer that and when I was behind closed doors with leaders and I got to see the human being behind the title, behind the ego, behind the org chart, and I could help support them in that space. So for me, I think that's the first time where the growth mindset had to kick in, because, I mean, I'm sure it had before, but that's when I was conscious of it because at that point I realized that I hadn't failed myself in my career, but I could look at where I got or the fact that I had worked so hard to get here and now it wasn't working out as failure or as like, I don't know what else to do, but I saw it as, okay, what have I learned in the past? And I kind of just use that to navigate. And being in hr, you're dealing with change and growth and the emotions and all of that. That comes with it all the time. So it's just been, I guess, a combination of my training, my own personal experiences, and seeing how people don't do well with changes that has kind of led me to really step into this.
- [05:50]
A
People do not do well with change. I would definitely agree with that. And I think nonprofits have a very unique way of dealing with change. They really want to, you know, kind of just do their work and stay in the status quo and not really, you know, look at what's changing that they can't control. So you talk a lot about what it means to lead from the middle, you know, especially during seasons of uncertainty. So what does that phrase, you know, mean to you? And how can it really help us as we're sort of navigating our own seasons of uncertainty?
- [06:28]
C
Yeah, great question. So I, for me, I use two frameworks that are pretty well known. Elizabeth Kubler Ross's framework around the stages of grief, and William Bridges, his framework around the organizational change or transitions. And so basically, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, for those of you who don't know, she studied all of these people who were at end of life and kind of observe like the emotions and the pattern that they go from denial all the way up to acceptance. Grief is nonlinear. So, you know, it's kind of like, I would say, like more like a roller coaster, if you will, that you move through many of times. Now, William Bridges came on and said, wait a minute, there's a similarity to this with what happens in organizational change and mapped where the beginning, his beginnings, if you will, maps with the denial, right? So some new thing has changed, some policy has been made, funding has been removed, whatever, right? Like that's the beginning. And then you move into what he calls the neutral zone. That's when the depression, the anger on Kubler Ross's shows up. But that's also where you start to see low morale, all of the ambiguity. People can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. The self sabotage starts to happen, and then you move into new beginnings where now they've accepted it. So those are the frameworks that. Those are two frameworks that I use for that. So leading in the middle is really in that neutral zone, as William Bridges puts it. That's where things are moving. But maybe there's still some ambiguity. People are, you know, they're questioning. We've been in organizations before, right? And it's just like when you don't know the answer, that's the worst place to be, or you don't know how the change is going to impact you and that's not being communicated. That's when you start to see the water cooler conversations, the sabotage and all of those. So leading from the middle is really understanding from a leadership perspective that this is probably going to be the hardest stretch of whatever initiative that we're moving towards. And we can't just keep focused on the new system, the new initiative, the new what, whatever. We have to be mindful that human beings are being impacted and human beings are navigating emotions that are playing out in the workplace. And so not being so blinded to the fact that, oh, this is the cost savings that we're going to get in doing this or this is that, and just say that, okay, someone is sitting there at their desk right now wondering what does this mean for me, like, will I still have a job after? Or whatever it is. And being able to acknowledge and hold space, space for the emotional impact of change as well as the tangible physical impact of the change to the organization.
- [09:13]
A
People are always going to be focused on what the change means to them individually. And I think that's so challenging for leaders because change is so constant in the sector, whether it's funding or staff turnover or inflation making costs go up, or, you know, whether it's new legislation, whatever it might be, and you know, people are. Or whether it's just something like talking about AI, you know, people are very anxious and very concerned about that. So what role does vulnerability play in organizational change? I'm a giant Brene Brown fan, love vulnerability. How can leaders balance that, you know, when their teams are looking to them for direction and still be vulnerable?
- [10:03]
C
Yeah, vulnerability is huge. But I think vulnerability has to be contained in a way. And this is where self leadership and self awareness comes into play. Right. Like as a leader, if you are in a space where all of the changes that you still feel uncomfortable with it in yourself, that's not the time for you to share all of your fears, all of your anxiety, all of.
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A
Your worry with your staff.
- [10:27]
C
Right. That's not supporting them. So being self aware, first of all, of how you feel and doing what you need to do, regulate, that's first and foremost. I think the other piece around vulnerability is that especially in times of change, right, you, you have to, you have to navigate it differently than when things are good, so to speak. I remember back in, what was it, 2009, 2010, I was working for this financial services company and our team had 50% layoffs, right? So this is like the Great Recession or whatever. And what I Respected and honored about my manager and still to this day that I remember is that she would hold these weekly meetings and it would just be like, hey, I don't have any updates. Right. As soon as I have any updates, I will get back to you. Or when she had an update, she would just say, okay, here's what I know, here's what we're thinking next.
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A
Right.
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C
And it was just the calming of just knowing that even if there was no update, someone was telling us there's no update. And it helped, you know, the 50% of us that were left navigate that. And I think that some, some leaders think that, oh, well, you know, no news is good news. Well, no, it's not. No, it's not good news. Just telling people or, you know, some leaders also feel like if they don't have all the answers, then, you know, somehow they make it about themselves. I don't have the answer, so I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to. I don't want to create in a situation where people are asking questions. Well, no, that's, that's self protection. That's not looking at the broader organization and what your people need. If you don't have the answers, it's okay to say, I don't have the answers to that right now, but when I do or if I do, I'll get back to you.
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A
Oh, I love that. I think that's so important because no news is good news. Sometimes when you go radio silent, that makes people more anxious.
- [12:16]
C
Yep.
- [12:17]
A
You know, it makes sense. Oh, yes. Then they can just like you just said, those water cooler conversations will happen like, oh my gosh, we're all getting fired, or oh my gosh, we're going to be furloughed or this is going to happen. This is going to happen. And I think for a leader, you know, like you just said, don't come from a place of crisis. Like, if you are an actual crisis, I wouldn't share that. But just being vulnerable in the way that maybe you don't have all the answers and, you know, things are not perfect and tied up in a bow. And you talk a lot about how nonprofit leaders should not reframe setbacks so they internalize them as personal failures. Can you talk about that and how can we do that? Because I do think, especially for the type A's among us, that we really internalize setbacks as personal failures. I know that I do. So how can we get out of that mindset?
- [13:18]
C
Yeah. And let's be real right. So it's 2025 as of the time of this rewarding recording. And we were just talking about how like this is one of those years that like you can pass, you can go, right? So we've all, if not in our lifetime, this year, experienced some level of setback. And so what I've noticed, and this is in myself too, that when you're so passionate about the work that you do, or you're passionate about the way that you're showing up in the world when something doesn't work out and especially if you're type A and you know, you've planned it out and you strategize and done all the things, it's so easy to turn that mirror back on yourself and say, okay, well what did I do wrong? What does this mean about me? You know, I'm supposed to be running this organization and yet, you know, my life looks like this. Like we have all these stories that we make up. And so what I encourage and what I've had to learn to do for myself is all right. So I need to get clear. This goes back to the self awareness on who I am, right? So this is not a question of my worth, this is not a question of my capability, this is not a question of my expertise. This setback happened. If I look at it as information, what is the data telling me? And I think that that's the moment where it shifts, it just shifts the energy of everything. Because if we're trying to problem solve a setback or a situation and we, underneath that we think we're the problem, we're, we're solving for the wrong thing, we're going to put energy and effort in the wrong places. But when we can step back and detach ourselves from the situation and actually look at the data, then we're making informed decisions, then we're taking informed actions that say, oh, okay, there was a misalignment or you know, maybe we miss, missed something here. Now we can iterate the next launch or now we can look at this a lot differently for next year until you disassociate, if you will, or detach who you are as a human being, as a worthy, competent human being to the external circumstance. It'll always feel like you're, you're in this proving and urgency type space of fixing things.
- [15:27]
A
It's almost sort of like, you know, the, I saw a Venn diagram. It's like the things you can control versus the only thing, the things you can't control versus the only thing you can Control is like you and your reaction and how you are, how you're going to move forward from whatever the externalities are that are affecting you. And there's so many externalities right now that nonprofits can't control.
- [15:55]
C
They.
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A
That they're feeling anxious about, that they're feeling overwhelmed about, you know, the constant mantra of do more with less, the scarcity mindset, thinking that donors don't want to hear from them, or thinking that donors don't want to participate. And I know, you know, in one of your LinkedIn posts, I mean, you. You really do ask some powerful reflection questions in your LinkedIn posts, and one of them was, what are you making this setback mean about you? That really stuck with me because, you know, if you do a pitch or if you're in consulting, you know, you don't land a client or something doesn't go the way that you wanted it to, it's really hard not to internalize that and not to take it personally. So I thought that was really, really interesting. How have you seen sort of leaders shift their perspective in that way and become more resilient?
- [16:51]
C
Yeah, great question. I've seen some do it, but I, to be quite honestly, a lot are struggling, if you will, like, if we.
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A
Don'T get a grant, it's about me.
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think more importantly, so I'll use the Great Recession, because this is what I've been using to ground myself this entire year, right? So, you know, when you think about in 2009, 2010, when it was just like, literally, the world felt like it was on fire, right? There are people like the founders of airbnb, the founders of Lyft, the founders of Uber, and founders of all these organizations in what looked like the worst situation ever, coming up with ideas and opportunities that now are a way of life for us. And so for me, it's been, you know, how can I not become ignorant to what's happening, but how can I look at, okay, what is present today that can inform me of, you know, what might be needed in the future? And I think that that's where the growth mindset comes in. Because if we're so fixated on, let's just get things back to where they used to be. Let's just get things stabilized, right? We miss out on the opportunity for that innovation to come through, and especially if we're rooting the issue or the challenge or whatever in our own identity and our own worthiness, it's almost like we've just closed ourselves in this Box where opportunity, it's not even in our awareness. So that would. That's my encouragement. That's been my encouragement to myself and that's been my encouragement to leaders that, you know what, you're right. Things have shifted, things have changed. Things aren't working out the way that they used to be. Rather than trying to get things back on track, where are the other opportunities? Where are the gaps? Where are the spaces that you hadn't even considered before that you can now look into? So I think it's a balancing act of stabilizing for where you are today, but not getting so fixed into how operationally things have always been that you don't look outside the box to what other opportunities are available.
- [18:55]
A
Yes. Looking at disruption as innovation, it's so hard. It's so hard. But it's something that's so necessary. And a lot of organizations did it during COVID I saw that. And just recognizing that change is constant and that there's always going to be shifts and, you know, major disruptions. So we talked a little bit before we hit record about the visibility challenge that you're doing on LinkedIn. And I think it's so relevant because talk about being vulnerable. And I mean, tell me about the visibility challenge. How many videos have you created? How many, like, what's your goal and how did it come about? And I really encourage other organizations to do the visibility challenge, but tell me about it.
- [19:41]
C
Yeah, so it wasn't planned. I had conversations with three individuals, three individuals who know me in different, like, ways or levels in my life. And in one week having conversations with these three, like, I love, I don't know, my mind looks for patterns, so that's why I was even able to notice it. They all made comments around me sharing a little bit more of what it is that I know. Like, and we were having one on one conversations and they were like, you should be sharing this. And I was just like, no. Like, this is just us. And for someone who's, you know, been on stages, I do podcasts. Like, I, you know, I, I'm visible, or at least I thought I was visible. What I realized there are certain things that, the deeper things, you know, like the things that we become aware of, the things that are part of our transformation, those weren't things that I shared. And also having been in corporate for so long, like, I had been so conditioned, especially on LinkedIn, to show up as corporate Sabine. Right, Proper corporate Sabine. And I had at that point, I mean, I've been in my business for seven years now. So it's seven years, and I'm still carrying this identity or this assumption of how people expect me to show up. And so I was just like, okay, maybe I can do, like, 30 days of videos. Because when I turned 40, I did this 40 and 40. So, like, leadership lessons in life, business.
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A
Wow.
- [21:06]
C
So I was just like, oh, okay, Well, I did 40 days. I could do 30 days. And then I heard my spirit said, no, you need to do 90. I was like, 90 days? That's. I don't know that I have enough to say in 90 days. And I was just like, okay, you do. You know what? I'm going to accept the challenge. And so I called it my visibility challenge. And somewhere, instinctively, I knew, Julia, that at the end of this 90 days, I would be forever changed. I didn't know how. I didn't know what would shift, but I just knew that it was an invitation for me to grow in a way that I have not yet grown. So by the first 30 days of it, when I was doing my recap video, what I realized that this wasn't even. I knew it wasn't about visibility in terms of marketing, but what I realized was that this was about me finally seeing me, meaning that I got to see what I know, how. I think I stripped all of the masks that you wear. Like, I talked about my survival patterns. It was just me. And there were days I would sit here, like, I don't know what to say. And then I'd hear, just press record. And then I just start talking. And whatever came up came up. And so it's been a very transformative process for me. During the month of November, I did use it to talk more about my social capital and the program that I had because I was recording something. But even that was still straight from. There was no scripts. There was nothing that required me to be polished. Sabine. I was just me. So we're in. Today will be day 75. So we're almost close to the finish line. I did miss a couple days, or else I'd be wrapping up by the end of the year. But that's okay. That's another thing that I learned through this process, because the perfectionist in me would have been like, oh, my gosh, I missed the day. I'm such a failure. I was like, no, we're just going to skip the day and start all over again. Or not start all over again, but just move forward with that next number.
- [23:10]
A
Oh, no, I love that. And you talked about so many issues that are incredibly relevant to, like, organizational change. You talk about personal, you know, issues. You talk about how you overcome setbacks. And I loved your video about networking. Like, if your network isn't serving you, like, how are you serving your network? I think what's so interesting about that is I really think that doing something like that for a lot of nonprofit leaders would be valuable. Even if you just record it for yourself and you don't put it on LinkedIn. I know people are so, you know, people are very wary of video, but being able to talk through the things that you know about and share it in that way with your audience is so valuable. And it's valuable to you because then you start seeing, wow, I really have a lot to share. And I'm actually really. I have a lot of expertise and a lot of things that people care about. And then you do get that hit of visibility in marketing because people love video, but they love to see unpolished, authentic video. And I wish more leaders would do that. I don't know if I could do 90 days, but you're inspiring me. You're inspiring me in 2026 to just, like, start recording.
- [24:26]
C
And if I may add some encouragement to those of you who are listening who are also saying, I couldn't do 90 days. So when you think about, obviously you're in these organizations because you want to help serve people, but we can't serve people if we don't have the revenue and the resources to be able to do it, right? And so one of the things that I teach in social capital is around the currency hierarchy, right? So we think that money is the thing, right? The only form of currency, when in fact it's actually the outcome, if you will, or the thing that shows up after we've touched base on all the other things. So money is the most densest, which is why it's the slowest to come forward. You really start at energy, right? So when you think about energy, that is like how you're showing up your self concept, you know, people. People feel your energy. If you've ever heard that people feel you before you ever say a word, you walk into a room or someone walks into the room, and you're kind of like, oh my gosh, she's so bubbly. But you don't know the person. So it starts with your energy, and then it starts with your social or your relational relationship. So this is why I talk about. People think that, oh, well, you know, if I get money, if I exchange the money, then we're doing well. But especially in Nonprofit spaces like to build those relationships with donors, to tell stories that are impactful to them, to help bring them in. That's relational capital that you're leveraging there. Then it's knowledge capital, which is kind of what the challenge would help support. That is you sharing your ideas and your resources, your frameworks, all of the things that you built. And then time capital is your ability to execute. So from the time you have an idea to the time that you execute, when all of those things are aligned. So energy, relational knowledge, and time, then money becomes the outcome. Money is not the source. And so I think that's even a deeper layer. Like, if you really are thinking about how do we, you know, raise more funds, how do we bring things in? People aren't giving nonprofits or, you know, donating money to nonprofits just because they don't have anything else to do. They're starting with that top of the hierarchy. And once you've built that trust in alignment, that's when someone will say, oh, my gosh, I definitely want to donate or I want to support with my time or whatever.
- [26:43]
A
Oh, I love that. So the social capital that is. That's a really great framework because we do get so fixated on dollar amounts and not enough on what else can people, you know, kind of bring to the table. So for any organizations going through major transitions right now, what is sort of like one small shift that leader could make, like, either in their communication to their staff or their own mindset, that could make a big difference?
- [27:13]
C
Yeah, great question. So I actually have two things that are coming to mind. One, you can't communicate enough. And, I mean, obviously you want to be mindful of what you want to communicate. But again, as I was giving the example before, even if the communication is just like, I don't have any updates or, you know what? I'll keep you posted. When something happens, when you're going through change in the absence of information, people will make up their own stories. And so you want to. As the leader, you want to be the one shaping the narrative, even if the narrative right now is, you know, we're holding steady. When I get more details, I'll let you know. I think the other thing, especially when. If you're in that middle piece, in that neutral zone, celebrating wins. I work with so many leaders. I was actually talking to a nonprofit leader who's actually. Their whole organization is going through a change, and I was just like, you have to celebrate wins, even if. Even if it's the smallest thing, right? Like, you have to celebrate that. Because as human beings, to keep us motivated, to keep us in that space of like, we, we're moving forward, you know, just implementing something. It doesn't have to be big. It could just be like, you know how, like when people are raising money and they have the little thermometer or something like, find ways to celebrate the big and the small wins so that it encourages people. Okay, we are taking a step forward. We're moving forward.
- [28:35]
A
Oh, no. That is so valuable. Communicate more than you think. I teach this all the time in marketing, digital marketing, but I think internally, you can't overestimate. I'm just thinking, you know, even going through my own, like, cancer journey, I really found that communication was the key throughout all of it. Where people, if they hadn't heard from me for a while, like you said, they're making up their own stories or my family members are like, not sure what's going on. I think that even if you just don't know or even if you just have one little small email that just says, you know what, guys, I'm gonna hopefully get an update in a week. Haven't heard from a key board member. Just to let people know where you are in the process is just so helpful. And it's kind, it's kind to people so they're not perseverating and worrying and, you know, going about their, their day thinking that, Thinking the worst. Because people will always think the worst, right? They'll always like, just go right to the worst. So how do you, how do you stay grounded and clear in the face of uncertainty?
- [29:47]
C
Oh, gosh, lots of prayer. I adapted this morning routine and it's actually helped to serve me in more ways than one. So I wake up, I do my workout, I take this two mile walk while I'm listening to an audiobook or a podcast. And so for me, it's like, I call it my mind, body, spirit fueling. Because the mindset is before I start. And I'm, you know, I'm a coach, I'm serving people all day long before I start serving anyone. I need to, I need to be fueled, right? That you can't serve from an empty cup mindset. And so I start with filling this body, this mind, body and spirit first, and then I pour out into others. I think the other thing that has really helped me, especially this year, and it was a, it was initially a desire of mine, but I think when we get older or when we become adults and start adulting, life just becomes harder and you get, you get Tunnel vision in the spaces. But community has been really, really big, a really big theme for me this year. And what does that look like to build community? I have a large network, right. But that's not the same as community. Who are the people, like, who are the people that I call them my Fab Five, Right. Who are the people that I can identify as the individuals that when I'm not polished, Sabine, when I need support, when I need to ugly cry, that they've created the safe container for me. And I think as leaders inside our organization and outside of our organization, we need to be surrounded or we need to make sure that we're not only surrounded by yes men or people who are just admirers, that we need to have people around us that we've explicitly given permission to call us out or to call out our blind spots or to say, hey, have you considered something else? Because again, as leaders, we making a lot of decisions. We have a lot of things to consider. We can drink our own Kool Aid. Let's be real. We can drink our own Kool Aid. But having your core center of individuals that can say, hey, that probably wasn't the best idea. Or have you considered this that you really deeply trust? I think for me, has made the biggest difference. And as I look at leaders who have that in place, they're definitely. I mean, it's not easier or they're not living life easy, I should say. But it certainly keeps them grounded when there's a lot of ambiguity and things are just out of their control.
- [32:10]
A
Especially if you are the executive director of an organization, it often seems like you're maybe in an ivory tower and, you know, you're very isolated and. Or even if you're a development director, you know, you're a marketing director, you're a team of one. You can be very isolated. And it's really hard to bounce ideas off other staff members when they're not. They're so focused on their own work. Right. They're so focused on their own, you know, their own deliverables and. And what they need to get done in their own tasks. So having that. I love that you said the community is different than your network. Yes, there certainly could be overlap, but I see the two of them as very different as well. And there's different ways you can call on both of them.
- [32:57]
C
Right.
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A
So I really. Oh, I love that. What's giving you hope right now? Where do you see opportunity in this moment? Because I gotta say, sometimes it can seem really depressing and discouraging.
- [33:12]
C
I would say what's giving me hope is. And this is coming from someone who taught this and who's trained by this. Right? So leaders, there's a new leadership model that is emerging even in the larger organizations. It's still in its infant stage, but I feel like the pandemic cracked open the awareness that we can't lead the way that we used to lead. And so by that I mean you know, where people, where it was all about performance over like a performance endurance, like how, you know, how much can you take on that shifted, right? That has shifted. Gen Z is part of the reason for that and just life in general. So appreciate Gen Z. And so I'm seeing that leaders are very much more aware and realizing that they don't have to carry the load all by themselves. A lot of organizations, and this has been unfortunate obviously because of all of the layoffs. But like what's really been happening in the mindsets of the organizations, and this happened during the recession too, is that the span of control has shifted. So organizations that had like all of these like hierarchies, they've realized that we have to flatten stuff out and it's obviously resulted in people losing their opportunities. But this is the time where people need. It's almost like building community within the organization. Where you used to see silos, you're seeing more collaborative, cross functional work and it's going to take some time, especially for the larger organization. But for mid sized nonprofit, I think leaders are realizing that just because I'm the one sitting at the top doesn't mean that I have to make all the decisions. Just because I'm the one responsible for the board does not mean that I have to carry the load on my shoulders. And so it's creating spaces where I think people who are not sitting in leadership roles are getting a lot more exposure to things in a way that says, oh, this is how I play a role in the larger organization's mission versus in the past where okay, we sit at the top, all the information is gatekeeped up here, all of the decisions are keep up here and then we roll it down. So I'm excited to see that shift again. It's still in its infancy stages across different sectors and organizations, but it's the workforce of the future for sure.
- [35:30]
A
Oh, I love that. Sabine, this has been fantastic. Where can people learn more about you? Your podcast, your work, your organization, connect with you.
- [35:40]
C
Yes, thank you. So LinkedIn, as Julia mentioned, please connect with me on LinkedIn if you follow me. I won't be able to see your stuff, but if you send a request and let me know that you heard me on the show, Happy to connect with you and share whatever it is that I can.
- [35:56]
A
I love that. And you'll get the whole backlog of all of Sabine's videos if you just go to her profile and click on all posts. I think there's something for everyone and they're so valuable, so I really encourage you to check that out. I'll put it all in the show. Notes Sabine, thanks so much for coming on the podcast and being so generous with your wisdom and expertise.
- [36:18]
C
Thank you. It's my absolute pleasure.
- [36:27]
B
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening.
- [36:32]
A
All the way to the end.
- [36:33]
B
If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. Keep changing the world you non profit unicorn.