How to Nail Your Nonprofit Website with David Hartstein

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Episode Title: How to Nail Your Nonprofit Website with David Hartstein
Release Date: March 5, 2025
Guest: David Hartstein, Co-founder of Wired Impact

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Nonprofit Nation, host Julia Campbell engages in a comprehensive discussion with David Hartstein, co-founder of Wired Impact, a website software company dedicated exclusively to nonprofits. With over 15 years of experience, David shares his expertise on building effective nonprofit websites, emphasizing the foundational role a website plays amidst the evolving landscape of digital marketing and social media.

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The Evolving Role of Nonprofit Websites

Understanding the Purpose

David initiates the conversation by addressing the fundamental role a nonprofit website should play. He breaks it down into three critical areas:

1. Driving Traffic: Raising awareness and connecting with a broader audience.
2. Driving Conversions: Encouraging meaningful actions that align with organizational goals.
3. Saving Time: Streamlining processes to allow nonprofits to focus more on their mission rather than administrative tasks.

“A website should really be a force multiplier. It should be a capacity builder.”
– David Hartstein [08:25]

Impact of Social Media and Short-Form Content

Julia raises a pertinent question about the influence of social media and platforms like TikTok on the role of nonprofit websites. David offers a balanced perspective:

“In some ways yes, and in a lot of ways no... attention spans are what they are, and we're not going to be able to change that.”
– David Hartstein [08:38]

He emphasizes that while attention spans may be shorter, authentic and clear messaging on websites can effectively engage visitors who find causes meaningful.

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Designing an Effective Homepage

Simplicity and Clarity

David underscores the importance of a homepage that doesn't overwhelm visitors. He dispels the myth that every user journey starts at the homepage, noting that many landing pages are also popular entry points. The key is to ensure the homepage answers three essential questions:

1. Is this for me?
2. Can you solve my problem or a problem I care about?
3. What's the next step?

“Your homepage really doesn't need to do as much as you may think it does. It needs to answer three questions.”
– David Hartstein [13:09]

Targeting the Right Audience

When faced with multiple audiences, David advises nonprofits to prioritize clarity over breadth. Instead of trying to cater to everyone, organizations should identify one or two primary audiences and tailor the homepage to resonate specifically with them.

“Most organizations end up in this position where they're trying to speak to everyone, and they're actually resonating with no one.”
– David Hartstein [16:46]

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Optimizing Conversion Rates and Donation Pages

Understanding Conversion Rates

Conversion rates represent the percentage of website visitors who take meaningful actions, such as donating or signing up for newsletters. David highlights common pitfalls that can hinder these rates, primarily stemming from unclear messaging and targeting too broad an audience.

“A confused mind never converts.”
– David Hartstein [15:33]

Best Practices for Donation Pages

David provides actionable advice for optimizing donation pages:

1. Visibility of Donate Buttons: Place donate buttons in primary or secondary navigation headers to meet visitor expectations.
2. Simplicity of Forms: Streamline donation forms by minimizing required fields to reduce friction.
3. Post-Donation Experience: Enhancing the thank-you experience can significantly impact donor retention.

“Just reminding them of the value, sort of the why behind joining your movement...”
– David Hartstein [22:35]

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Enhancing Website Accessibility

Importance of Accessibility

David passionately discusses the critical importance of making nonprofit websites accessible to everyone, citing that “1 in 6 people worldwide have a significant disability” (WHO statistics). He debunks the misconception that accessibility is only relevant to organizations focused on disability rights, emphasizing its universal benefits.

“Accessibility just isn't a primary focus for us. And we're hearing that less and less...”
– David Hartstein [25:27]

Practical Accessibility Tips

He offers practical steps to enhance website accessibility:

• Add Captions to Videos: Beneficial for both the deaf and those in noisy environments.
• Avoid Text in Images: Use actual text instead of embedding text within images to aid screen readers.
• Proper Use of Headings: Maintain a hierarchical order (H1, H2, H3) to structure content effectively.
• Descriptive Link Text: Replace generic “click here” links with descriptive alternatives for better navigation and SEO.

“If you're not thinking about accessibility, you're effectively excluding from using your website.”
– David Hartstein [28:04]

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Navigating SEO and Driving Traffic

SEO as a Long-Term Strategy

When addressing SEO, David emphasizes its role as a long-term investment rather than a quick fix for driving traffic. He advises nonprofits, especially new ones, to focus initially on community engagement and traditional outreach methods before relying heavily on SEO.

“SEO is much more of a marathon, not a sprint.”
– David Hartstein [31:42]

Effective SEO Practices

For those committed to enhancing their SEO, David recommends:

• Keyword-Rich Content: Create valuable, informative content tailored to the audience’s search intent.
• Inbound Links: Generate quality backlinks to improve site authority and search rankings.

“Creating really valuable keyword-rich content... and generating a lot of inbound links.”
– David Hartstein [31:42]

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Ensuring Smooth Website Projects

Project Management Tips

To ensure successful website projects, David shares several strategies:

1. Appoint a Single Point Person: Centralize decision-making to prevent delays.
2. Simplify the Initial Launch: Focus on essential features first, allowing for future enhancements.
3. Limit Stakeholder Involvement: Avoid too many opinions bogging down the process.
4. Secure Credentials Early: Obtain necessary login details upfront to prevent launch delays.
5. Avoid Perfectionism: Prioritize progress over perfection to keep the project on track.

“Great and done is better than perfect and planned.”
– David Hartstein [36:51]

Cost Management Strategies

David advises nonprofits to:

• Start with Goals, Not Features: Define what the website needs to achieve before adding functionalities.
• Implement Minimum Viable Products (MVPs): Launch simple versions of features to gauge interest before full-scale development.

“Start with your goals, not your features.”
– David Hartstein [36:51]

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Julia and David reflecting on the invaluable insights shared, encouraging listeners to implement these strategies to enhance their nonprofit websites. David invites listeners to connect via LinkedIn and participate in Wired Impact’s online events for ongoing support and resources.

“We answer website questions all the time, so don't hesitate to send questions in.”
– David Hartstein [38:22]

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Key Takeaways:

• Focus on Core Purposes: Ensure your website drives awareness, conversions, and saves time.
• Design with Clarity: A simple, targeted homepage that addresses the primary audience’s needs is crucial.
• Optimize for Conversions: Streamlined donation processes and thoughtful post-donation experiences enhance donor engagement.
• Prioritize Accessibility: Making your website accessible broadens your reach and demonstrates inclusivity.
• Strategize SEO Wisely: Treat SEO as a long-term effort and complement it with community engagement.
• Manage Projects Effectively: Clear roles, simplified launches, and goal-oriented features ensure successful website projects.

By implementing these strategies, nonprofits can build robust, engaging websites that effectively support their missions and foster meaningful connections with their audiences.

Transcript

[Julia Campbell]

What if we named things for what they're not? We'd give teachers non oranges and fly non cars. That sounds ridiculous, right? So why is your world changing organization called a non profit? The truth is you are for purpose and the more you raise, recruit and retain, the more good you can do. That's where Bloomerang comes in. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose with easy to use tools and powerful insights that will help you understand your donors better than ever and unleash even more generosity. Imagine spending less time on admin tasks and more time on what matters your mission. Bloomerang customers raise an average of 26% more. Are you ready to join them? Then just visit join jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang to learn more and start making an even bigger impact. That's jcsocialmarketing.com B L O O M E R A N G let's get to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

[David Hartstein]

Hello.

[Julia Campbell]

Hi everyone, this is your host of Nonprofit Nation, Julia Campbell. Thrilled to be here. Today we're going to talk about nonprofit websites, specifically what you need to do, how to improve them, how to set them up, what you need to know going into 2025, what's working, what's not working, and what are some tweak small and mid sized nonprofits can make to really amplify and be found online. So my guest today is David Hartstein. David is the co founder of Wired Impact, a website software company built solely for nonprofits. And Wired Impact's mission is simple. To make it easier for every nonprofit to build a website they're proud to share with the world. And for the last 15 years, David has been helping to make the world of nonprofit websites less complicated. So thank you because I've seen some pretty complicated websites, convoluted websites, and when he's not non profiting, he's most likely having a dance party with his two young kiddos or geeking out on board games with his wife. I love that. So, of course I have to ask you, what's your favorite board game?

[David Hartstein]

That's such a hard one to answer, Julia.

[Julia Campbell]

Oh, that is a hard one.

[David Hartstein]

We're really into Wingspan right now. If you've never.

[Julia Campbell]

Wingspan. No, I've never heard of it.

[David Hartstein]

Would highly recommend. It's a good one.

[Julia Campbell]

And what do you like to have a dance party to with your kiddos?

[David Hartstein]

Honestly, they get to choose. So it's everything from oldies to the Bluey soundtrack.

[Julia Campbell]

Oh, I love the Bluey soundtrack.

[David Hartstein]

It's so good.

[Julia Campbell]

Yeah, it just.

[David Hartstein]

I can't talk about Bluey. I'm gonna start crying if I talk about Bluey.

[Julia Campbell]

I know. Bluey always makes me start crying too. And if you don't know what Bluey is, people, please, look, just look it up, Google it, and then you'll start crying. Then you'll go down a Bluey rabbit hole. My kids are a little bit older, actually, 15 and 10, but we watched that Bluey special. We still kind of. My 10 year old and I still will sneak in a Bluey episode once in a while.

[David Hartstein]

I think me and my partner like it more than our kids do, to be honest with you.

[Julia Campbell]

It's just. It's so wonderful. So thanks for being here. This is so fantastic. I'm really excited to have you on the podcast.

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, thank you for having me. I've been listening a long time. I know we've known each other. Yes. As well. And really excited to have this conversation.

[Julia Campbell]

Yeah. It's been a long time coming. I think it's just especially important right now because there is so much chaos happening in the world of social media. There's so much talk about sms, there's so much talk about email marketing and AI and all of these different tools. But I think we really do need to get back to the basics. Right. We need to start focusing on our website. If our website isn't where it needs to be, then really everything else will not fall into place. So tell me, how did you get started with Wired Impact? And tell me why the focus on nonprofit websites?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, well, so trip down memory lane here. So my partner Jonathan and I, we've known each other, we grew up together. We've known each other since high school, and we've both always been involved in social good in some capacity. We volunteered with nonprofits, we had internships with nonprofits in high school and college, and we partnered up in 2010 and started working with all kinds of organizations on their digital marketing and their Websites, so small to medium businesses, nonprofits, some schools. I was actually a teacher before that and so had a background in education. And we had these conversations around how can we not only feel really good about our day to day, but how can we look back at the end of a year, the end of a decade, the end of a career, and feel like what we did mattered and that's really what pushed us to nonprofits. We just felt like we were noticing some trends coming up over and over again in the clients that we were working with. And we just saw such an opportunity to really take what nonprofits were doing on the web to the next level. So it's been a journey for us. We were much more of a traditional agency, now we're much more of a website software company working with specifically small to mid sized nonprofits. Sort of noticed those were the folks that were falling through the cracks of more traditional approaches that were out there. But yeah, that's kind of been the journey to where we are today.

[Julia Campbell]

I love that. So something interesting that you approached me with before we hit record or a few couple of weeks ago was you crowdsourced some questions for us, which I love. So. So you asked on LinkedIn and use social media, you know what, what are people's biggest questions about their nonprofit websites? And we're going to ask some of these questions. So maybe some of my listeners submitted some, which I think it's such a great idea to crowdsource questions because I can come up with questions all day. But I love that you really asked your community, you know, what are they struggling with? So the first question, what's the ideal role a website should play for a nonprofit?

[David Hartstein]

This is such a good question. It's one that we get fairly often. And the way that we kind of break it down is there are three major areas that we feel like your website should be actively helping your organization. So the first is driving traffic, just raising awareness, connecting you with more people, broadening your sort of supporter base in general. Just people who didn't know you existed, becoming aware that you exist out there. The second is driving conversions or meaningful actions from your visitors. We want them not only arriving on the website, but engaging in a meaningful way to them and to your organization. These conversions should be tied to your broader organizational goals and really be helping you propel your mission forward. And then the last one is saving you time, both you time and your visitors time. I think this is actually an area that's often overlooked. A lot of people think about driving traffic. A lot of people think about driving those meaningful conversions from visitors. But a website should really be a force multiplier. It should be a capacity builder. It should be making your visitors lives easier because they're finding a meaningful way to engage with your cause and your movement, but also saving your team time. It should be making your lives easier and freeing you up to focus on those really high leverage things that are going to move your mission forward.

[Julia Campbell]

Do you find that the role of a website is changing with the rise of social media and especially short form video platforms like TikTok being used more for discoverability?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, it's a really interesting question because I think in some ways yes, and in a lot of ways no. Or so a lot of times when people approach this conversation, I feel like they at some point start sort of lamenting the loss of attention spans. And yes, I don't know, they'll say things like visitor attention spans are shorter than ever. They'll compare it to the nine second attention span of a goldfish. I feel like that conversation is a little bit misguided for a few reasons. So first, at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter that much. I mean, practically speaking, attention spans are what they are and we're not going to be able to change that. So to spend a whole lot of time worrying about that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Second, it's just not that consistent with my lived experience. I just think about my own browsing habits. Like when I find something I care about, I give it time, I give it attention, I give it some mental kind of real estate in my brain. And I feel like that's true if you're scrolling through social media. It's true if you're browsing Netflix or Disney in our house. Two young kiddos. But I also feel like it's true if you're out there looking for causes to support. Now I think the more critical kind of piece of this conversation around the shifting role of websites is just that there's more noise out there than ever. There's more folks creating content and thought leadership and making podcasts and videos and websites and all that kind of good stuff. And I just feel like the barrier to entry on all of those things has just exploded downward over the last handful of years, especially with generative AI. I just feel like we're going to see even more of that kind of noisy information out there. And so in terms of what it means for nonprofits and how they can sort of combat that, I think there's a Few things. So, first, I think it's more important than ever to really lean heavily into authenticity, both on your website, but also just your marketing in general. I just feel like if the content that you're putting out into the world feels like another person or organization could have created it, just try leaning harder into your unique voice, bringing your own sort of distinct perspective to the table, just in whatever you're creating. We've thought about this a lot. My goal, when someone hears me talk somewhere or read something I've written, I want them to just think, that's uniquely David. I can hear him in that. I can see him showing up in that. And I think that's just more important than ever. And then the other piece, which is something I wrestle with, honestly, you may have noticed it already, is just getting to the point more quickly than ever.

[Julia Campbell]

No, it's.

[David Hartstein]

I feel like that's something that.

[Julia Campbell]

Oh, non profits really struggle with that in every aspect in general.

[David Hartstein]

Yeah. And I feel like just our minds are busier than they've ever been. Like, we just have so much information all the time. And you rarely have someone's undivided attention these days. Like, oftentimes I'm consuming information while I'm driving in my car or I'm on my phone while I'm waiting to pick my kiddos up from daycare. I'm just not always sitting at my computer browsing a website and just really kind of cutting through the noise with that very kind of clear, pointed message is so, so important. And along those lines, I feel like just really clearly articulating who you're trying to reach and what you want to be known for is so critical these days. Yes. We call that your differentiated value. Just how you want to stand out in the minds of your people. And I think the more clear an organization can get around that and the more they can really weave that into everything they do online, the better.

[Julia Campbell]

What you want to be known for and who you want to reach, those are absolutely key questions that every nonprofit should be asking. And I love the framework of that. And you, you talk a lot about the nonprofit homepage. So this is. I'm assuming this is where you feel like nonprofits should be focusing a lot of their efforts. And you did a recent webinar on how to nail your nonprofit homepage. So what is some advice? What are some elements? What are some things that we absolutely need to nail our homepage?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, so you're right. We did just host an event on this. It was one of our most popular nonprofit website, office hours that we've hosted. So there's clearly an appetite out there for just leveling up our homepages. And you're absolutely right that the homepage is such a critical page for most organizations. There is. I will say before we jump into those specific things, there is a myth out there that every journey starts on the homepage and would actively caution people from falling into that mental framework. Because look at your analytics, there's a good chance that you have a lot of popular landing pages, but at some point, most visitors are probably going to end up on your homepage. And so from my standpoint, from kind of how we think about them here at Wired Impact, most homepages are trying to do way too much, which just leads visitors to get overwhelmed and leave. And something we say a lot about a lot of things, but it applies here is a confused mind, never converts. But just if there is confusion in someone's mind, they are not going to stick around, they are not going to take action, they're going to leave. Your homepage really doesn't need to do as much as you may think it does. It really needs to answer three questions in the minds of your visitors. First, is this for me? Next, can you solve my problem or a problem that I care about? And finally, what's the next step? That's really it. It does not need to tell your whole story. It does not need to list every program you offer. But if you can quickly and clearly get those visitors to know the answer, like, yes, this is for me, yes, I trust that you can solve my problem or a problem that I care about. And here's the clear next step for me to take. There's a much better chance that your visitors will give you a bit of their time. They'll invest some energy and some mental bandwidth in poking around your website and hopefully ultimately taking those meaningful actions that are connected to your organizational goals. And something we always say with homepages, when in doubt, leave it out. Like, if you are not sure whether or not you should include something, you can absolutely run a B test, you can absolutely test things, but if you're unsure, cut it. Everything you add takes away from everything else that's there. And so really focusing on the most important information goes a really, really long way.

[Julia Campbell]

Absolutely love that. I teach the same thing about marketing. Is this for me, if I go to this website, I have to know that this is what I'm looking for, or this is what is going to solve my problem, or like you said, a solution to a problem. That I care about. And my favorite nonprofit websites have the homepage with a statement on it that is like, no child should go hungry. Like, that's a statement that either I agree with or, you know, maybe some people disagree with that statement, and then it's not for them. But if it's for me, then I'm more inclined to stay on the page and then explore further. But like you said, I think so many homepages try to do so many things because there's so many sort of cooks in the kitchen. So what would you say to. I mean, the very first thing, I'm kind of here. I'm already hearing it from my clients. I'm hearing it from people in their minds listening to this. We have five different audiences we have to reach. We have clients, donors, alumni, staff, and, you know, people in the community, community members. How can our homepage effectively target all of these different audiences? That's probably the big question.

[David Hartstein]

It is the big question. And my short answer is no, it should not target all of those audiences. But we can. We can peel back sort of the layers on that. So this is honestly one of the most common challenges that nonprofits face with their websites. And it's uniquely difficult to nonprofits because if you think about the typical business, like, you have an audience you're trying to sell something to. But to your point, most nonprofits have a lot of audiences they're trying to speak to. They're trying to speak to supporters, whether that's donors, volunteers, grant makers, board members. A lot of times folks who benefit from your work, just kind of your community, whether you provide programs or services, maybe you have members who are actually, like, joining your association or your membership. And maybe you're also providing just, like, information or resources to the general public. It's just a lot. But to your question of should nonprofits try to reach all those audiences? The reason I say no is because most organizations end up in this position where they're trying to speak to everyone, and they're actually resonating with no one, because they're just watering down the message to try to reach all those folks. To the point you brought up before, about the really powerful, impactful statement, you need people to know right away whether or not they're in the right place. And the only way to do that is really get very clear about, first of all, who is the primary audience for the website. So I typically say you should have two primary audiences, max. One is better, most folks. That's not realistic. So really, two, to the extent that you can do that, and then you can have secondary audiences. That's not to say you're not going to provide them with a great experience on your site, but you need to really be clear on who's the audience that we're trying to reach with the website. And then also, what do they care about, what's motivating them? Why are they turning to us? And related to that, how can we help, especially in ways that other organizations can't. Again, that's what we call that differentiated value. And the more you can really lean into that, the better. And so when creating not only a homepage, but really any page on the website, really what I push folks to do is first of all think of who's the audience for this page and then what problem are they trying to solve? Again, what's that differentiated value or our unique perspective on solving that problem? And then again, what's that next step that they can take? As long as you're clear on audience problem, our unique approach and next step, generally speaking, the page will come together in a pretty compelling way, and you'll give yourself a much better chance at engaging that visitor and compelling them to action.

[Julia Campbell]

Right. Oh, wow, that's so important. And what I always tell my clients, I say if you put that statement on your homepage, it's not going to turn off clients and it's not going to turn off donors because it's something that they can all get behind. You know, if it's your vision statement, it's what you stand for, it's your North Star, it's, you know, what you want to be known for, then donors are not going to click away and say, oh, this is not the right page, you know, and then clients will still be able to find the information that they need. So having that, that powerful homepage that just kind of unites all of these audiences, I think is incredibly important. So one question that you received, what are some common conversion rate killers? Can you talk about conversion rate? Sort of what it is, how we should be thinking about it, and what are some of these common conversion rate killers?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, so conversion rates are essentially just the percentage of your visitors that are taking those meaningful actions or conversions that we talked about before. So, I mean, first step here, obviously is just getting really clear on what those key actions are. Right. A lot of people come at this from the perspective of what are the key actions we want visitors to take on our website. I usually recommend trying to flip that and saying, what are the key actions that our visitors want to take on our Website. And then how do we connect those to our broader organizational goals? Because I think even that sort of slight reframe can be pretty impactful when it comes to just the content you create and the way that you message things on the site and the navigation that you put together. But from a high level, that's all conversion rate is the percentage of folks who are taking those meaningful actions on the site. And there are some common themes, certainly, in what we see showing up on websites. So the first, we've already sort of talked about targeting everyone, connecting with no one. I totally get why this happens. You want to speak to as many people as you can, but like we talked about, the messaging ends up kind of falling flat. And so in terms of how to fix it, again, just get really clear on your primary audience, that deep sense of what motivates them, what challenges they're facing, and then get really good at articulating the unique ways that you can help. And I would say just kind of make sure that the website decisions that you're making have all of those kind of things in mind, you know, even if that means sacrificing sometimes the needs of secondary audiences, as long as you've really gotten ruthless about prioritizing your primary audience, then their needs really should come first on the site. And like you said, Julia, these are not mutually exclusive audiences in terms of what people care about. Your donors, your supporters, are probably going to care about the compelling way you talk about your movement that you're building, even if you have not identified them as the primary audience for this particular page.

[Julia Campbell]

I was going to say I have a question about online donation pages and what should be on them? How should we be setting them up? And I got this question actually recently from a client. Should the donate button be on every page? How specific should we be? And, you know, what are some best practices for our online fundraising page?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, so a few things come to mind here. Again, this is a page in particular that we would push folks to do some testing on, and there are some great resources out there from some organizations. NextAfter is one that comes to mind that does a lot of testing of donation processes. So I always push folks to check out those resources to see the results of actual tests. But in terms of should the donate button be on every page? I mean, for most organizations, the answer is yes. For most organizations, what we recommend is putting it in the either primary or secondary navigation right up in the header so that visitors can see it. They sort of have come to expect that that's where the donate button is going to be and when they're ready to engage, it's right there for them. In terms of the actual page itself, generally speaking, you're going to want the page to be pretty simple. You're going to want to really streamline the form as much as you possibly can. So only ask for critical information. Just because any form field you add adds friction to the process. And so really just being as minimal as possible while still obviously getting the information you need from your donors, including some element of your differentiated value in the content of the page. Just reminding people it's not a foregone conclusion when people get to your donate page that they're going to donate. So just reminding them again of the value, sort of the why behind joining your movement just to get them over that finish line when it comes to making a donation. And then one piece of this process that I think is often overlooked is what happens right after someone makes a donation. What is the post donation experience like? So obviously that's not going to help you get more donations initially, but it can have a major impact on retention rates. So really thinking about what does that post donation celebration look like? Not only sort of the thank you experience on your website, but what is the email flow after that? What happens obviously within your organization and how do you follow up and thank your donors? But I'm no fundraising expert. I focus on the website specifically. But we have seen a major lift in retention rates for folks who really give that post donation experience as much thought as they give the pre donation experience as well.

[Julia Campbell]

There's a lot a website can do. So I know I've made donations and I have been directed to a thank you page and there was confetti or there was a video from the executive director saying thank you and what to do next. I mean there's a lot that just the website can do. That's a fantastic point. Let's shift to talk about accessibility. I think that's so important. I am so not an expert in website accessibility and I'd love to learn more about it. What are some of the elements that you think we must have and why is this so important for nonprofits to make sure their websites are accessible?

[David Hartstein]

I love that we're talking about accessibility more just in general when it comes to websites. It definitely feels like it has gone from being nice to have domestic, shifting more towards that needs to have to. The second question you asked, maybe we actually start there. Just like why every organization should care about accessibility. We used to hear folks saying something to the effect of our mission is not in the disability rights space. So accessibility just isn't a primary focus for us. And we're hearing that less and less, which is great. But even if you're bought in on the idea of accessibility, you might hear something like that from a board member or member of your leadership team. So hopefully this will help you push back on that a little bit. So first, one quick stat. I love stats. The World Health organization estimated that 1 in 6 people worldwide have a significant disability. So that's 1.3 billion people. Billion with a B. It's just a huge group of people that if you're not thinking about accessibility, you're effectively excluding from using your website. You've probably heard this idea before that accessibility isn't just about supporting people with permanent disabilities. It's just better for all of your visitors, which is absolutely true. But in terms of what that looks like in practice, take something as simple as putting captions on a video that you create. Yes, it absolutely supports your visitors who are deaf or hard of hearing, but it also supports your visitor who's in a library and doesn't have headphones or is in a loud place and can't hear the audio clearly. It just, you know, while accessibility definitely means making your website available to more visitors, it also just means making your website available in more situations or circumstances to visitors. And so just I feel like this is more important than ever, given the boom of people using phones to browse the web. Because we're just often.

[Julia Campbell]

I always keep my phone on silent too.

[David Hartstein]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Julia Campbell]

I mean, especially when I'm in a public place or if you have little kids, as you know, the second a video goes off on your phone, they're running over to you, like, what is it? I want to watch it.

[David Hartstein]

Exactly, exactly. So that's a big piece of it. And then I think in my mind, honestly, an even bigger piece is just the message that accessibility sends to your audience, that everyone is welcome as part of your movement. Just beyond the practical side of people accessing your content, I feel like it just shows that you're intentionally designing your movement to include folks who have different needs. And I think that's something that most organizations would say they're trying to do. And so just building your site with accessibility in mind is a great way to walk the walk on that front.

[Julia Campbell]

So important.

[David Hartstein]

One final piece here that I think honestly is often overlooked is that ability is a fluid identity. Just because someone is able bodied today does not mean they necessarily will be tomorrow. And you may have a major donor or a member of your staff or a board member who just isn't as able bodied tomorrow as they are today. And so by building your site to be accessible, you're almost just kind of future proofing your website to stay accessible to all members of your current community, as well as inviting additional folks into the fold down the road.

[Julia Campbell]

Sure. What are some sort of quick wins for our website? Do we need to overhaul it?

[David Hartstein]

For the most part, there are absolutely quick wins you can find now. If Your site is 5, 10 years old, it might be harder to get it up to modern standards. I mean, it flat out will be harder to get it up to modern accessibility standards. But even in those situations, there are things you can do to make incremental improvements. So here's a few, just kind of very concrete things. First is like you said, include captions in your videos. Most services have some auto captioning feature. Turn it on. It's better than nothing. Take a minute to read over the auto captions, correct things that need correcting. That's a great easy change that folks can do. Another one is don't bury text in your images. So text that is within images is oftentimes really hard for screen readers to read. And so to the extent that you can bring that text out of the image and put it on the page itself whenever possible, and including alternative text for images is also really important, you'll hear this called alt text a lot for short, and it's basically just a written description of the information that's being conveyed by the image itself. And so that's something that a lot of screen readers will use to help people who can't actually see the image pull out meaning out of it. Another one that is actually, I think a common misstep that organizations make is using your headings in hierarchical order. So when we say that, we're basically talking start with the heading one, then use heading twos, then heading threes, heading fours to organize your information. A lot of times folks will say, well, I like the look of my heading 4, so I'm going to use it instead of my heading 2 here. That can be confusing when it comes to screen readers. And so following the hierarchy of your headings is really important. Another one is not overly formatting your text. Too many caps or bold or italics can be really hard for people to read and just kind of undercuts the point of using them. Anyway, they're meant to be for emphasis, so just kind of sprinkling them in can and then another one is using descriptive link text. So instead of saying click here as your text that's actually clickable, use a descriptive piece of text that gives a clear idea of what's going to show up on the other side of that click. So that is not only better for SEO search engine optimization, but it can also be much better for visitors just to know what to expect on the other side of clicking on a link on your website. Honestly, just every time you publish something, if you consider accessibility, just pause real quick and consider accessibility, it'll go a really long way in helping you publish more accessible content.

[Julia Campbell]

I love that. Let's, let's talk just a tiny, just touch on SEO. Cause I know it's such a huge topic, but I think the question I know question I get, I'm sure question that you get after you've done a website project. How do we get people to go to our website or how do we attract more people to our website?

[David Hartstein]

It's a huge question. So speaking of SEO specifically, my advice for most organizations when you're launching a website, especially if you're a new organization, launching a brand new website, is not to put too many eggs in the search basket right out of the gate. Because SEO is much more of a long game. It's going to be much more of a marathon, not a sprint. So if you're looking for quick ways to drive traffic, SEO is almost never going to be your answer. We are huge fans of SEO and generally the way that you can drive traffic from organic search. When we say organic search, we're basically saying when someone types something into Google, how do we show up in the actual organic results? Not the ads, but the actual results that show up. The best way that you're going to be able to do that is creating really valuable keyword rich content. So a lot of it honestly comes back to what we talked about before. Just really knowing your audience, knowing the types of things that they're searching for. And then your goal should be to create the best resource on the Internet that answers whatever question that they're asking. But the other piece of it is you're going to need to generate a lot of inbound links pointing to your website. You're going to need to generate. It's really the way that these search engines evaluate the popularity of your site is the number, the number and quality of the links pointing to it. And so that's why I say SEO is much more of a long game for new organizations. Generally speaking, they're going to be better served by looking for other Ways to engage their community, like social media, connecting with partners or getting out in the community and actually hosting events, raising awareness in some of those more traditional ways. Because not only is SEO a long game, it's also just rapidly changing right now in the world of AI. And so I think less and less emphasis should be put on SEO in the early days of launching a new website.

[Julia Campbell]

Oh, it's really smart. I love that it's a long game and it's something that is just continually shifting and we need to think about it. But we, I think all of this is the long game. Digital marketing in general. So when a nonprofit is planning for a website project, whether it's creating from scratch or improving a website, and everyone's so busy, so much on their plate, how can we ensure that it runs smoothly?

[David Hartstein]

So it's a great question. And when it comes to website projects, typically most organizations care about three things primarily. So first, creating a site that they're proud to share with the world. Next, launching on time. The final one is keeping costs in check. So the first one, maybe we can pause on just that, creating a site that you're proud to share, because that's something, I mean, we've really been talking about that, I think, the whole time so far. But the other two, launching on time and keeping costs in check. There are some sort of like very practical logistical things that you can do to make sure that your project runs smoothly on those fronts. So in terms of keeping the timeline from ballooning up on you, the first thing I always recommend is assigning a single point person. And all decisions should flow through that person. They should really be the authority to make a call and move the process along as opposed to having to get input from everyone. It's fine to get input, but they should be able to make the final decision and break any ties and keep the process rolling. Next, I always recommend keeping the initial version of the site as simple as you possibly can. You can always add more complexity once the site is live and out there in the world. But keeping that initial version as simple as you reasonably can can really help to get the site live. You already mentioned this, honestly. But another one is to avoid too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah, just really thinking carefully about who to involve and the best way to involve them throughout the process. Another tip is to get login credentials as early as you can in the process. You know, things like your domain name and your hosting information and third party tools. It's just generally that's pretty easy. But one login can delay Launch. So really getting those login credentials early and the final one is not letting perfect delay. Great. I often have to remind myself that it's just like, great and done is better than perfect and planned. And so just really making sure that it's great, but not holding out for perfection or using perfection as an excuse to not move the project forward. In terms of keeping costs in check, I can run through these pretty quickly. One is just start with your goals, not your features. A lot of organizations jump into, we need this feature and this feature and this feature, I would say zoom out, say, what are the goals our audience again has? What do visitors need to be able to do on the website? Use that as your North Star when diving into what features you need. And then you can really work with a website partner to figure out what's the best way to do that.

[Julia Campbell]

Yeah.

[David Hartstein]

And along those lines, we also Recommend Launching features MVPs as much as possible. Minimum viable versions of features. You know, just like the simplest version of a feature is a great way to suss out how much of an appetite there is for that feature among your visitors. So that's a good point. Most kind of feature MVPs have two key criteria. It'll solve a meaningful part of your visitor's problem, but likely not the whole thing. And it'll provide some sort of feedback loop to. To understand how interested your visitors are in this type of feature. So I think an example can help. Like, maybe you have this grand vision for a really robust job board and application system on your website, but that's gonna be a pretty big undertaking to build that feature. So start with just a page that lists out open jobs and then links people to a Google form to apply. That would be a really simple version of that feature. You could see if people are visiting that page, submitting those forms, and it would give you some clues that, okay, this is going to be a good investment of time and money to build this out into a more robust version of this.

[Julia Campbell]

Absolutely. It's like when a nonprofit says, we need an app. And it's like, well, what's the problem in solving? Do people want to download another app? Is there an appetite for this? That's so great. Well, this has just been absolutely fantastic, David. I know a lot of people are going to have questions for you, want to connect with you, want to work with you. So where can we find you online and. And learn more about your services?

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, I mean, we love geeking out on nonprofit websites, so we'd love to connect. We can put a page up on our website. We can do wiredimpact.com nation for you can have a lot of the resources we've talked about today.

[Julia Campbell]

Okay, Wired, what is it? Wired impact.com you can do Nation. Sounds good to me.

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, so we can do that. But in terms of connecting, I tend to hang out on LinkedIn so folks can connect with me there. Connect with Wired Impact there. We answer website questions all the time, so don't hesitate to send questions in. And then if you're wrestling with any specific questions, we host an online event every few weeks called nonprofit website Office Hours where we usually have a short presentation on some topic and then folks can come out and ask questions.

[Julia Campbell]

I love that idea.

[David Hartstein]

Yeah, it's been great. Honestly. We get asked just the most thoughtful, sometimes difficult questions on the fly and you can share a link to your website. We can help get you unstuck or at least point you in a helpful direction. So yeah, I think between LinkedIn and that, that's probably the best way to connect.

[Julia Campbell]

Well, thanks so much. This has been wonderful. I know people are going to have a lot of questions and want to look up all these resources. Just thanks so much for your generosity and for sharing your expertise with my audience.

[David Hartstein]

Oh, truly, my pleasure. Thank you for carving out the time. This is a lot of fun.

[Julia Campbell]

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.