← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
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- [00:00]
A
You pour your heart into every single fundraising appeal. You juggle a dozen different tools trying to piece together a clear picture of your supporters. But what if your fundraising platform was built with a deep understanding of those challenges? That's the difference a purpose built giving platform like Bloomerang can make. Bloomerang customers aren't just fundraising. They are seeing a 27% larger one time gifts than the industry average. They're growing their supporter base by an average of 12% year over year. And that's the confidence to know who to ask and when. It's the joy of seeing your community rally behind you with greater generosity. It's turning passion into unstoppable momentum. Your purpose is limitless and your fundraising tools should be too. Learn how you can start raising more@jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang that's jcsocialmarketing.com Bloomer B L O O M E R A N G All right, onto the show. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm gonna sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello. Hi. Nonprofit Nation. This is your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about nonprofit burnout, overwhelm and stress, and how we can stop sacrificing our well being for the important work that we do. And this week on the podcast, I'm joined by Megan Whitney, nonprofit leader, coach and mindfulness guide. And after an 18 year career in the sector and burning out a decade ago, which we're going to discuss, Megan realized that passion alone isn't enough. Today we're going to talk about how she turned her own journey into a blueprint for resilience. How to embed mindfulness into daily routines, and what it takes to really create a nonprofit culture where rest is not just allowed, but actually encouraged and people are empowered to do it. So, Megan, welcome to the podcast.
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B
Thanks, Julia. So excited to be with you.
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A
Yeah, me too. So can you share sort of what led you to this new practice of coaching and meditation from nonprofit fundraising?
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B
Well, as you mentioned in my lovely Intro, which I appreciated. I became a coach because I experienced burnout firsthand. And I have always worked in the nonprofit sector and know really intimately the stresses and overwhelm. And so I think it might be helpful just to take you back to my burnout journey because it's very much a part of how I became a coach and how I gained the confidence to do fundraising. Would that work well?
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A
Oh, absolutely. We'd love to hear it.
- [03:42]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So burnout is such an epidemic in our sector. And so if folks are experiencing burnout, I want to offer my empathy and compassion to you because it is no joke. It is life threatening, in fact. So I was working in a job about 10 years ago or so where there were a lot of changes happening around me, restructuring was occurring, and it felt like there was a lot going on outside of my control. And at the time I did not have a mindfulness practice, which for the sake of clarifying, mindfulness simply means paying attention. It's not about meditating on a cushion for an hour. It's self awareness, essentially, or paying attention. And so I was really focused a lot on trying to control the things outside of myself, to manage what other people thought of me. And there were a lot of shoulds going on, which I think are just a good flag whenever we notice ourselves saying like, my boss should micromanage me less. My colleagues should do their projects on time. There's also a lot of self judgment happening too. Yes. So, yeah, I'm sure folks can relate because that's how we're wired at that time. I was in my early 30s and really did not have the tools to understand, like these thoughts that I'm having are habitual thoughts and I don't need to necessarily believe them. And these sensations in my body are signals to me that something's off. So I remember struggling with digestion issues and sleep issues and, you know, just to say what burnout is, characteristically it looks different for everyone. But the three characteristics, as the World Health Organization describes burnout are physical and emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, cynicism, and then decreased sense of personal accomplishment. So that's what I mean when I'm talking about I was burned out because we use that term a lot. Right. And I just talked to a friend recently who, who said, I don't think I'm burned out, but what does it actually mean?
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A
How do we know?
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B
How do we know? And we can't change what we aren't able to see or identify. Right. It's not like we stumble in the morning and sprain our ankle and know like, something's wrong here. When it comes to our physical and mental and emotional health, the physical sense tends to be a little bit more obvious when, when the pain is screaming at us. And so I really didn't know how to identify the signs of burnout. I was really focused. I think the main thing I want to highlight here is that I was really focused on trying to control the stressors outside of me rather than tending to the stress in my body. Which burnout is really a chronic sense of exhaustion caused by prolonged stress. It's not like the flu where it just comes on. It's a feeling where we might go on vacation and think like this will restore us and rejuvenate us, and yet it doesn't help because it's chronic. So as I'm saying this, I'm feeling like a downer here. And the good news is that when we are able to get to know ourselves with mindfulness and start paying attention to these signals, we can prevent burnout from happening and we can recover as well.
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A
I think it's so important. And I post a meme once in a while that says adulthood is saying this week, next week, things will calm down over and over and over until you die. That's what adulthood is. And I find myself thinking that, you know, when you're younger, you think, oh, okay, I have to work hard, I've got to impress the boss, I've got to pay my dues, I've got to work 18 hour days, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. But then it really doesn't stop when you get older. It's not like you can all of a sudden sort of take a breath and relax, especially if you're moving up, if you're getting more responsibility, if you were going from director of development to maybe executive director or CEO or something like that. So I, I do think, we do have this view that when you're younger, you're supposed to be doing all of the things that burn you out and just sort of maybe sucking it up. You know, that's the thing that really bothers me about hustle culture, grind culture and the nonprofit sector. You know, it's sort of, well, this is what you signed up for. What did you think was going to happen? We're under resourced, we're understaffed, we don't have, you know, we don't have money, we don't have resources, we don't have the bandwidth and the capacity to hire 10 more people. So when you went into coaching, I'd love to hear about how you went into coaching. How do you deal with that kind of pushback? I'm assuming you're not trying to work with people that are not receptive to your work, but I can imagine that it's all. You see it all around you. You see it in just the culture that we live in.
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B
Yeah. I'm smiling thinking about that meme you just described.
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A
Yes.
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B
It is so real that we think that we will achieve happiness when X thing happens.
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A
Yes.
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B
When we're at the weekend, when we cross that thing off our to do list. And how well has that been working for us?
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A
Oh, gosh. There's always more. There's always more and more and more.
- [09:35]
B
Yeah, it's natural. I really want to emphasize this is so natural, the way our brains are wired, the way our bodies react to stress. And what's helpful is to remember that we do have a choice in how we respond to the things outside of us. And I want to emphasize, too, that burnout is a systemic issue. So I really think it's helpful in coaching to provide a space that, one, I've walked through myself, and two, I'm still working in nonprofits. It's been my entire career. And so I feel like I get that grind culture very, very deeply. And it's not that it doesn't affect me at all. So we're not trying to turn off or I think you said, like, suck it up or push down our feelings. It's about providing a space for people to really be with themselves. And as far as how I work with what I think would be one of the most common objections that we were actually talking about a bit before we hit record is the thought of, I don't have time.
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A
Right.
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B
And it is not to diminish the fact that we are working in spaces where it does naturally feel urgent because people's lives are at stake, and we are trying to solve huge systemic issues. And so our conditioning is to just keep going and keep doing. And we think that, you know, the more we do, the quicker we'll get there. And what I feel most passionate about as a coach and as a facilitator of burnout prevention workshops for teams is providing ways to make, well, being accessible amidst the sense of busyness. Yes. To know, like, it's really intimidating when we aren't given an instruction manual for how to operate our brains and bodies, and we don't really know how to manage stress. And so what are the small Things that we can do in the moment. So I really like to break it down when it comes to how we can move from reactivity and being on autopilot to how we can move to being responsive and centering love in relationships. And it doesn't require, like, sitting in meditation for an hour every day. It really, though, is, like, similar to going to the gym. If you want to build up strength, you don't suddenly get strong when you do one bench press. It does need to be process of intentional practice. So as I'm talking to you, I'll just pause right now and notice, like, and I invite listeners to do this as well. What's happening in my body right now? And I'm checking in with as much kindness as possible and noticing, whoa, my heart is beating really fast, and I feel a little tightness in my neck and shoulders. So practicing mindfulness in the moment, it doesn't require us to actually stop what we're doing. It also helps me, as I'm talking to you, like, notice, like, oh, there's a little bit of a thought here of, like, I want to get it right. I want to impress Julia. And so being able to name to myself what is going on in my body and in my thoughts. This is a way in neuroscience that we can calm ourselves down from flight, fight, freeze. And it's. It really just takes 90 seconds, actually, which I think is fascinating to be able to move an emotion through our body. We often keep these emotions of guilt and fear alive through the thoughts that we have about them. And so when we just take a moment to pause and really pay attention and tell our body, like, I'm listening to you. That's how we switch from being reactive to responsive. So I could go on and on, but I'm curious how that lands for you around the busyness. And maybe you could share a bit about some of those thoughts that you have or things that happen when you think you should practice more and you don't feel like you have time.
- [14:14]
A
Well, it's interesting. I was at the doctor where I'm spending a lot of time these days, and there was a sign that said something like, drop your shoulders, unclench your jaw, breathe deep. Like, just be. And I thought, that is just so powerful for me right now. Like, because I immediately I had my shoulders up to my ears and my jaw was clenched. I was so stressed. And I thought, if I had that in my office and looked at it every day, I don't know if it would be as powerful. But having those kind of reminders in places of, like, high stress or even at a school, or even at. Just having those reminders. Maybe having a reminder on your phone that says that, like, we all, a lot of us have reminders to drink water and to do certain things. But just having that reminder to, like, take a deep breath, unclench your jaw, relax your back, relax your shoulders was really helpful. And when I think of not having the time to practice mindfulness, I agree. I think of a lot of the things that you said. I feel like I have to do it right. I need to download an app. I need to clear my mind. I need to do it 15 minutes every morning. I've read all the productivity books. I'm kind of addicted to productivity books. And all of. All of the productivity books talk about meditation and the importance of meditation and mindfulness. And I always worry that I'm not doing it right. I'm just thinking, like, today I was looking at my day, and it's pretty packed, and even for me, I try not to overdo it. And a friend reached out and asked if I wanted to go for a walk. And I thought, okay, that will be my time for, like, really my time for me today, Like, I'll take a walk. We'll be in nature. And that's how I try to practice mindfulness. But what I need to do is just make it more of a routine and look at the pockets of time that I have when I'm, you know, maybe scrolling my phone or. Or watching tv, both of which, you know, is nothing wrong with doing that. But if you're doing that and it's being detrimental to your mental health, that's one thing. So finding the time, I mean, that. That is another. That's a huge challenge. And also the culture of being busy, something that I've really been purposely trying not to say is that I'm busy when people ask me how I am. I'm also trying not to say I'm tired because everyone's tired and everyone's busy. And it doesn't mean anything anymore to say you're busy, so you reframe it as being full. So I would love to. For you to talk about that. What's another word that we can use? Because I try to be very specific. I try to say, oh, I have a lot on my plate today, or, oh, I'm kind of taking it easy today. But just constantly saying we're busy, I do feel like doesn't have the impact we might want it to have. And then even if we are super busy, it's almost overused and people might not take us as seriously. So you reframe it as being full, which I love and I'd love for you to talk about that.
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B
Yeah, good LinkedIn research or whatever research you did to find. I think I posted about that first one. I acknowledge what you shared is so common and something I experience as well is especially again, with social impact work, it's really just normal to think like, I don't have time for this. And when we are at our most stressed and anxious states, that's when it feels the hardest to literally even take three breaths. So if folks can resonate, I just encourage you to see if you can let go of the judgment of like, I should make time or I should feel another way about this and just meet yourself where you are. So starting small and recognizing as busy or as full as our lives may be, we have a choice in how we approach that moment. So research shows that on average about 50% of the time, our minds are wandering. And when our minds are wandering, we tend to go into this default state of worrying or criticizing ourselves or other people. And so being able to just make a choice of whatever you're doing in the moment, even if you hate it. Like, I'm not a budget person and I do that as part of my job in fundraising. When I make the choice of like, I'm going to recognize I'm feeling dread about this project and choose to focus my full attention. Our minds are happier. So whatever we're doing, our minds are happier when we're present. And it takes practice to train our minds to notice when we're not present. There's also, I want to acknowledge a lot of wisdom we hear this message of we need to be more present. Like that's the goal is be more present. And we've experienced trauma in different ways and at different levels. And there is wisdom in our body not being present. So scrolling on my phone, netflixing, that's something I enjoy doing. And I think we all have these ways of coping. And so the self compassion piece is really key here. And I can talk more about what that means. Our language matters. Yes. And mindfulness is about being intentional. And I've totally and still occasionally will say busy when people ask how I'm doing. And the reason I prefer full is because it implies to me that I'm making a choice.
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A
Right.
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B
I'm not a victim of my busyness. Of course there are things we are victims of, you know, and I want to share, you know, for your cancer journey, that is a victim experience. And how we choose to respond to that experience, whatever it may be, however devastating and challenging, we get to choose how to approach that time. And so I think for me, my mom. I'm laughing because I'm thinking about how my mom has actually learned to say, like in response to my schedule, because it is full, to not say, oh, you're so busy.
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A
Oh, my mom as well. It drives like mom. Yes. It's almost a personal affront sometimes I feel like to other people, when you show them your schedule, it's like it's not about you.
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B
Yeah. And yeah, I'm curious for you, like, where do you think that comes from that your mom's saying you're busy? Like, what's behind that? What. What emotion might be behind that?
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A
Well, she's worried about me, so. She is. She's always been very worried that I work too much, that I take on too much. You know, I have eldest daughter, like all the eldest daughter signs that I'm trying to take care of everyone and do everything and be everything to everyone and then being ambitious and taking on so much at work, traveling a lot. And I know it comes from a place of concern. It sounds that like she is. It just sounds like she's annoyed when I'm busy. But I do know that it comes from a place of genuinely worrying about my well being.
- [21:49]
B
Totally. I feel the same with, with my mom and even with myself when I say busy, it's like it comes from a fear place, a sense of scarcity, that there's not enough time. And my mom worries I'll burn out again. Helping people avoid burnout. And so it's less about me, like trying to control her language and more about me just wanting her to know. Like, yeah, I can understand that you feel concerned because I am doing a lot.
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A
Yes.
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B
I have a full time nonprofit job and I work on the side doing a mindfulness practice of coaching and facilitation. I would have never been able to do those things, but in my burnout. So for me, it's about checking in with myself and continuing to trust that I know myself. And there are times where I overextend and I have the tools that I offer clients to be able to reset and support myself and slow down. And I think we can all choose to slow down, even if it's just for a moment. And you were talking about productivity. I find it helpful, even though I'm not a huge fan of this aspect of our culture. Like, rest is productive. Research has shown with like a Couple minutes of a reset that that helps us focus and be productive. And for me, even more important, it helps us shift into relationships and love. So not only are we getting more done, which is good, especially, you know, we're trying to do things for public service. It's a good thing. And we also are humans that just deserve to rest and be well. And I think that having that ability to just pay attention to myself, to notice what language I'm using, and then shift and use more of a real emotional answer than busy, I think that.
- [23:57]
A
The minute to arrive practice, I know that you talked about it on the We Are for Good podcast as well. I would love for you to walk us through it if you can, and talk about how you use it and how. How we can use it.
- [24:10]
B
So it is a way for us to recognize that we're not robots and we can't just like go from meeting to meeting, back to backs are so common and come off a really tough conversation with our manager and then, like switch gears into creative problem solving. So it literally takes a minute to really reset our body and our brains to calm our nervous systems. And so with minute to arrive for folks, I can offer the practice and you can do it if you're driving, walking, just don't close your eyes. You can close your eyes if you want to. And then maybe after I can just share a few tips. If you want to try this at your organization. Yes, let's do it. Yeah. So feel free. If you are in a place where it's safe to close your eyes or lower your gaze, you can do that. And you can also keep your eyes open. So let's just take a few deep breaths in and out of the nose to start continuing to breathe. How it feels nourishing to you. Feeling the sensations of your feet on the ground and even pressing into the ground a little, allowing yourself to feel a little bit more supported and held by the earth below. Noticing what thoughts are here right now. Curiosity and kindness toward yourself. Maybe even saying to yourself, I'm having the thought. And then fill in the blank. Checking in with the body and scanning through the body with your kind attention. What sensations are visiting you in this moment? Not trying to fix or change, just noticing. And finally check in with your heart. What's important now? Taking a breath together, Appreciating ourselves for creating this moment of space. Opening our eyes when we're ready. How do you feel now, Julia?
- [27:24]
A
I feel great. I love that. I think that you're absolutely right. We jump from meeting to meeting. I know That I go from podcast interview to client call, to sometimes school committee meeting to picking up kids to doctor's appointment or doctor call. And it's really hard to have that buffer of intention in between everything that we're doing. I started to do a very, a similar meditation before my speaking engagements because I found that I was kind of rushing in. I was doing mic check, I was talking to the organizers. I was talking and I just found that I really needed to have that minute. And I would go into the bathroom and do it so that no one would talk to me, no one would bother me because I needed that centering before the chaos of a conference or the chaos of a speaking engagement. So I did. I. I found that really helped me, especially if I was teaching multiple sessions and I was in between sessions. So having that practice. I love that it's called minute to arrive because you really are taking. You're also giving a gift to the other people on the other end of whatever you. It is you're doing because you're going to be more focused and you're going to have, you know, be more relaxed and less frantic when you arrive.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's great that you're doing this before your presentations. And something I remind myself of is presence over perfection. Perfection isn't real. Someone with recovering perfectionistic habits. I remind myself all the time, like even before this call, when I was thinking about what I wanted to say. The most important thing I can do right now is breathe for a couple minutes. And it is a game changer for friends and meetings. And I, I would say if folks are wanting to try this out, the best tip I have is to offer it with an open hand. You could tell folks, like, I heard this suggestion on a podcast and it can really help us be more grounded and centered for our meetings. Do we want to try it? Yeah, if people want to try it, you can set a timer for one minute and if you're on virtual, you can go off camera. And I get the fact that it is a bit of a radical thing to do, like in a work setting. And I had a friend, even when we were doing it in person afterwards, be like, wow, we just breathed together like it was the most normal thing. So I get it's a bit of a culture shift, but that's what we need, right?
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A
Yes.
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B
Do we want to go back to pandemic times? Do we want to stay. Stay stuck in overwhelm and, you know, scarcity? Like, we gotta do some radical things and be a little Courageous about introducing something, and so you don't need me to guide you, although I'm happy to do that with teams, and it's something I enjoy introducing, and then you just kind of move on from there. I do like to gather a meeting, chat, chat a little bit. But it really is called a minute to arrive because we're transitioning and being intentional about arriving here, and it really does help us to have less reactivity pattern. And because we speak nervous system to nervous system, like, when we're all more grounded, we can feel that energetic shift. We can feel more of a sense of psychological safety. And, yeah, I could go on and on. I freaking love this practice. But the best thing is just, like, try it out. And if people don't want to do it, that's actually, you know, okay, well, I would love everybody to want to. We can do it on our own before a call. And so just remembering, if there's one thing folks take away, like, you have the power, even in two minutes or three breaths, to support yourself, and it's not a selfish practice. It ripples out that the collective change really starts from within.
- [31:40]
A
I could see it being used before board meetings. I think it'd be really powerful because people are coming from all different places, probably different locations. They've all had a day. They've all been thinking about other things, and it's something that can really center everyone around one thing. So I think I would love. I would encourage everyone to. To do that at a board meeting. We were at our time, but I really want to learn more about your nonprofit burnout prevention kit and some other resource maybe, where people can learn more about Megan Whitney and get all of your fabulous resources.
- [32:19]
B
Thank you. This time flew by.
- [32:21]
A
It really did. It really did. I feel very relaxed sometimes. Yeah, sometimes I feel. I don't want to say agitated, but there. There's sort of like a. Oh, I don't know if I did it right, or I don't know if I asked the right questions or I don't know if I gave the person an opportunity to say everything. But I feel very relaxed after this conversation.
- [32:44]
B
That's like the most beautiful thing you could say to a meditation teacher. Thank you. Yeah. And that's. We did minute to arrive before we started. So that's why. Yeah, that's one reason why, I imagine, because we grounded ourselves and took the time to regulate these emotions and pause. So, yes. And that board practice is something folks do in nonprofits I work with, and then it ripples to that board member's company and it's super cool. So anyway, to get to my Plug of Burnout Prevention Kit. Made it for you all with love, based on my history of experiencing burnout and talking to folks who are interested in supporting themselves in relieving stress, but just might not know where to start or how to create a system that Julia was alluding to. So there's a 12 days of peace meditation plan in there that kind of takes you from starting with one minute a day of meditation up to 10 or 15 minutes. So I have meditations on the app Insight Timer, so some of them are in there too. And there's also information about what burnout actually is and what you can do to start a practice that works for you, starting small and experimenting. There's a link in there as well to a free Call with me for a coaching session if you're experiencing burnout and want to help identify what are some of the root causes and what is something you can do right away to support yourself moving forward. So that's a bit about the kit and you can find it on Megan WhitneyCoaching.com Fantastic Megan.
- [34:32]
A
This was wonderful. I really appreciate you sharing all of these great resources. I know people are going to rewind that minute to arrive and hopefully use it, and I'm just looking forward to the feedback from this podcast. I think it's going to be great. So thank you so much for taking the time and for being here.
- [34:50]
B
You're so welcome. This was a delight to chat and encourage folks to reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn and we are building a movement here, so feel free to reach out and don't be shy. Foreign.
- [35:10]
A
Thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn SA.