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- [00:00]
Julia Campbell
Does cybersecurity seem like a terrifying topic? Don't worry. We're here to make it a smash hit. This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Technology, the nonprofit IT partner. And for the 10th year in a row, they're back with their free annual webinar. And this time, it's bigger and bolder with a 2025 twist. Cyber Karaoke Roundtable Technology is turning up the volume to teach you and your team exactly how to make your nonprofit more secure in the new year, all while keeping things fun and engaging with over 200 nonprofit clients. They know how to help organizations like yours hit all the right notes when it comes to cybersecurity. So make it your New Year's resolution to give your entire staff free cybersecurity awareness training. Do not miss this. Head over to nonprofit it.combest ever to save your free seat. Now that's nonprofit it.combest-ever. Here's to a secure and harmonious 2025. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello. Hi everyone. This is Nonprofit Nation with your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about passion and nonprofit leadership. Specifically, is passion enough? We're hoping to address that question, and I have today here with me, my friend and colleague, David Rhode. David founded, led and scaled Pitch in for Baseball and Softball, which is a nonprofit that increased access to baseball and softball for children in under resourced communities through the donation of equipment and uniforms. So fabulous. Both my kids play sports, so I know how much how expensive that is. And after leaving Pitch in for Baseball and Softball, David founded dot.org a nonprofit consulting firm focusing on CEO mentoring. David teaches nonprofit branding and nonprofit consulting at the University of Pennsylvania, and he's also the deputy director at PenPAC, an organization that mobilizes pro bono teams of University of Pennsylvania alums as consultants to strengthen the sector. And Dave is here to discuss many things, but he's the author of the brand newly released book Passion Isn't Enough A Practical Guide for Nonprofit Leaders, of which I am featured in chapter nine. So I'm very excited. Thanks for being here. David.
- [03:25]
David Rhode
Julia, thanks for having me. It's so great to see you.
- [03:28]
Julia Campbell
Now, you started an organization, so you. You founded and led a nonprofit for over a decade, then you transitioned to nonprofit consulting. I think that for some of us, that might seem very appealing. So, like, what did you learn along the way and what led you to make that shift in your career?
- [03:46]
David Rhode
Well, one of the things that happened, and I found this even when I was leading pitching for baseball and softball, is people would reach out to me and say, hey, I'm thinking about starting an organization and could I talk to you? And I would meet people at conferences and we would start talking, and I would encourage them to reach out, and they did. And we would strike up a relationship over time, and they needed advice. And I found that this was the beginning of a trend of people coming to me with problems that were not uncommon to other conversations I was going to have in the future with other leaders. And so this pattern developed over time where I was seeing that nonprofit leaders, especially on the smaller organizations, where executive directors are, you know, forced to wear so, so many hats that they were kind of running into some of the same things over and over and over again. So I was consulting with people early on, and I found that they responded well to my advice, and I enjoyed that relationship. And so putting more time and effort into that seemed like a natural progression for me.
- [04:49]
Julia Campbell
Oh, I think that's so smart. And the new book, Passion Isn't Enough suggests, just by its title, that leaders need more than just passion to succeed. So what drove you to write this book and take this approach?
- [05:03]
David Rhode
Well, it's interesting. I mean, I found in my own experience, people were like, oh, I can see how passionate you are. People would always use the word passion.
- [05:10]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
- [05:11]
David Rhode
With me. And I felt like that that was a little bit of a backhanded compliment, like, no, it's a lot more than just being passionate about this thing. I mean, I am running a not for profit business. When you form a 501C3, it's a 501C3 and the C IS corporation. So you are running a business. And so I think the nonprofit sector requires that people have passion. I think it's important that you have a strong connection to the mission of the organization. That's why you invest blood, sweat and tears in trying to make a difference among whatever population that you and your organization are trying to serve. So passion is critical. It's fundamental, it's foundational, both for the executive director, maybe staff members, and also board members, but especially for the executive director and I would say also for board members. Passion is. While it's necessary, it's clearly not sufficient. And so the book really tries to address a lot of the challenges and functional areas that people are going to run into along the way leading an organization. And it's broken down into the first 15 chapters are building your strategic plan, building your board, building your fundraising strategy in chapter nine, building your communications plan. All of those things are broken down so that people can try to understand what it is. The things that I'm going to be asked to do in this job, and certainly not every organization is going to have each of these in equal measure, but it's unlikely that you're not going to run into them at some point in your leadership journey. And so I wanted to provide that conversation. And the book is really. It's not meant as a textbook. It's really meant as if I were. And I had a few people in mind as I wrote the book, and I felt. I tried to sort of envision myself talking to them as I wrote the book. And it's funny, because one of them that did an advanced read of the book, she came back to me, just said, I kind of felt like you were just talking to me the whole time I was reading the book. And I felt like that was a really good compliment. I want the book to be accessible. I don't want people to feel like somehow I've got all the answers and I'm talking down to people like it's no. Like I'm just trying to support you in your job and give you the confidence to take on these things. And I've done them. I've learned from other people who have done them. And I just want to share some of this. So you feel more supported in your job as leading an organization.
- [07:35]
Julia Campbell
The book is billed as a practical guide for nonprofit leaders and is very practical. What qualities do you believe are essential for nonprofit leaders?
- [07:46]
David Rhode
I think nonprofit leaders need to be agile. You know, it's one thing to have a clear plan in mind and how you're going to go about your day and how you're going to go about things. And maybe you have a really rigid approach to. You want to have control in your life, and that's not a great recipe for success in the nonprofit sector. You're going to come in and there's going to be a certain amount of chaos. So you've Got to be able to roll with that. I think you need to be a creative problem solver. You are in many cases dealing with organizations that are not very well resourced. So you've got to come up with creative solutions. Whether it's how you and your small team might be solving problems, or how you engage volunteers to address problems, or the things you even choose to take on in the first place, you know what you can and can't do with the amount of resources you have. So I think it's that I think sometimes it's important. While we're. Many times we're dreamers, I think it's also important to be very practical and think about what can we do given where we are, what can we be really, really, really good at and how can we stick with that and how can we build ourselves up and be known for that thing? And that really is. We'll get into this later. But that's sort of the essence of brand building is like being really, really good at something so that everybody knows that when they think about this type of challenge, they know to think of your organization as the solution in their community to address that. So I think there's a certain amount of discipline that's required discipline thinking for an executive director. And I also think it's willing to just put yourself out there. I don't think this is a great business for introverts. You're most likely going to be the face of the organization. And some people get into it and they might have been like, clinical, they might have been a social worker. And then the organizations, this, that and the other thing, and they find themselves in the leadership role. You're also probably the frontline fundraiser for that organization and you're probably, you know, being invited to speak at a local Rotary Club or another event. You've got to put yourself out there. So I really think this is a kind of job where you need to be comfortable being in front of other people and telling your story. People want to know, why did you find the. Found the organization? Why are you involved with the organization? Tell your story and tell it with confidence. And that's also a way to draw people in because they, they want that kind of energy. And I think you, you need to ultimately be the kind of person that conveys positive energy. So a certain amount of charisma doesn't hurt because people get drawn to that. That's just sort of a little bit of human nature. So you encourage people to, to be comfortable, not to, not to worry so much. And, and they Know everything they need to know about, to talk about the organization. They live it every day. I think sometimes our job is maybe to focus them and focus their message so that they don't go all over the place like I'm doing right now with this question that you asked me.
- [10:32]
Julia Campbell
No, I think it's important. I mean, when I was a director of development, I would usually have to work hand in hand with the executive director or hand in hand with the board chair, someone that was sort of the face of the organization that, you know, I would prepare talking points and do research on the donor and, you know, make all the appointments and do all the logistical things. But the person that was the real face of the organization talking to like these higher level donors or even sometimes just, you know, a local company that wanted to buy a table at a gala, coaching and giving them the proper resources so that they can then take that passion and focus on that. But I think that's so interesting because you're so passionate. Okay. But the passion doesn't pay the bills necessarily by itself.
- [11:22]
David Rhode
It doesn't, it doesn't. And I think one of the things we're talking about here is sort of exuding all this and speaking and talking about the organization. One of the qualities that's most essential for being an effective leader is really being a great listener, is really able to connect with people. So you did a great job as a development director, teeing up these appointments and kind of getting your executive director ready to go. And I think we feel the pressure to sell, sell, sell when we're in that environment. And really the most effective thing we can do because this is a sales business, right? We're trying to sell ourselves to a donor and have them commit their resources to supporting our work. The hardest thing to do is to not do all the talking and to just ask them some questions like what is it about our organization that, that you really think makes it different? And why have you been willing to support us in the past? Or what do you think we do? Well, and getting them to talk. And sometimes when they do that, they remind themselves of why the organization's great and they sort of like make it clear what brought them into this meeting at this moment in time. And then when it's your turn, you can kind of build off of those insights instead of feeling like I've got to be the one driving the narrative. I think sometimes the challenge as leaders is to be willing to be a catalyst for this conversation so that we can understand how people perceive the organization and what brought them to us. What, what is it about us that resonates with them? There's, there's almost 1.8 million nonprofit organizations in the United States. They can get involved with lots of organizations. Why did they choose to be involved with us? And I think it's important to gather that perspective. I think, you know, we can't stop being learners about why people believe in us. That's going to keep us focused on the right parts of the message because we're going to hear those themes and we can play them back over and over again, but we can't get those that information unless we ask for it.
- [13:14]
Julia Campbell
Oh, and speaking of being a good listener, you were a great listener as you integrated perspectives from over. I think it's over 20 nonprofit executives and experts in the book. So doing that, first of all, how did you choose that approach? And then what were some of the most sort of eye opening insights from those experts that you curated in the book?
- [13:37]
David Rhode
Well, I've had the good fortune of running into a number of people and you know, over the years and so some of them were just the kind of people that I, I've leaned on in the past when I got myself into something that was complicated. And so I thought talking to them, I knew the kinds of areas that people would have some particular strengths in. And then I would looked at this myriad of chapters and topics and I realized, I don't know that I really found somebody that's particularly savvy at social media. And then I was able to find this amazing young person who knows everything, Julia Campbell, who can like break it down and make it super simple so that people can have a more focused and strategic approach to their social media strategy. Which by the way is one of the most common challenges organizations have just running in circles with social media and they're busy all the time, but they're not doing it, they're not doing anything to build their business and they don't know why. So I was able to engage a lot of different members of my network, but also look at some particular areas where I didn't feel like I had as much experience. So as an example, Scott Rosenkrans was a huge resource for me dealing with the chapter on AI because AI is a very hot topic and organizations are really trying to think through the ways that they use it. And Scott is one of the leaders in the industry and, and Scott was talking about a lot of things and he runs this thing by me and he goes, David, do you know ChatGPT? You can use ChatGPT Voice. It's one of the features and you can actually role play conversations with donors and hear how they would answer certain questions and how you can play out those conversations so that you get practice. Because we don't practice in front of donors because that's like a high risk scenario. But practicing with ChatGPT Voice feels like a. A smart use of technology. So that was one of the wonderful insights. And then there was a whole issue that I decided to address within the book, which is crisis communications, crisis response. And that really came out of the October 7th attack on Israel. And looking at how some of the university presidents, in my estimation, fell short in terms of their crisis response and thinking about, well, if a university president with all of these resources around them can fall short, what's going to happen with the garden variety organization? So I was able to reach out to Liz Wanger. Liz is amazing. She's truly an expert in crisis response and crisis communication. And she gave some wonderful protocols and sort of a playbook for individuals that are involved with an organization. This is in many ways the kind of thing that boards can be heavily involved, which is sort of risk management and scenario planning. You don't do this stuff after the crisis happens. You should be kind of practicing and working response muscles in advance. And one of the brilliant points that Liz made was you need redundancy in your planning. Normally it'd be like, oh, you're the executive director. You'll get out there and talk to people. But she says, you'd be surprised how many times the executive director is the crisis. So you need somebody else who's ready to go because that person may be either away on vacation or maybe the person that's tied to the scandal. So obviously they're not going to be talking about, like, how it happened and what we're going to do about it. So there were those kinds of insights that really just made the book so much more robust. And again, so many of the people that I asked to be involved with the project, they were so generous with their time because they really want this next generation of leaders to be successful. So it was really touching how they were so willing to give up themselves to be a part of the book project.
- [17:16]
Julia Campbell
I think that's such a smart strategy, especially around something like crisis response, because this is something that even really small local organizations deal with. I'm thinking right now we're having a big teacher strike in three different communities where I live. And that is crisis communications for a lot of the nonprofits that are working with the schools. Or working with the teachers, or working, you know, with the children providing services. And like, how do you sort of wrap your brain around it? How do you have a plan? And that's why I love that aspect of your book, because you can really just flip to that chapter, you know, and read that chapter and then take some notes on that chapter. And then when you want to build your financial controls, then can go to chapter five or building your brand, chapter eight. So it's almost like an a la carte menu that you can kind of pick and choose from when you need it. And it's not overwhelming and it's very practical. And I like that setup.
- [18:11]
David Rhode
That's right. You know, this is the kind of thing that doesn't need to be read sequentially, while it can be. And I think there's the ration. There's a rationale behind why the chapters are in the order. But it's also the kind of thing where sort of go to where you're having the most questions or the most pain as a leader and spend the time there. And it's funny, on this crisis response thing, you know, we had this little thing called an election, and there's a lot of organizations that are now realizing how they are going to need to respond and communicate differently with the expected changes in legislation and cutbacks in government support and things of that nature, depending on what sector they're in. But, like, that's legitimately affecting numerous aspects of the nonprofit world. And people should be having those conversations right now. How should we be responding? You know, donors need to understand that you realize that these changes are coming. And maybe a call for support, and maybe a very important call for support because we may not get the dollars we were getting in this other way. And we might need more support or we might still get those dollars, but now more people, let's say I'm involved with immigration as an issue, might need the kind of services that our agency provides that might be in danger of not having the kind of representation or support that they would have otherwise expected before the election result. So, again, this is not meant to be political. It's just meant to be the fact that we live in.
- [19:32]
Julia Campbell
Well, it's reality. It's just Right.
- [19:34]
David Rhode
Right. These are things that happen. And we, you know, we need to not just have everything smash us in the face. It's okay to think these things through and to get out there and to speak openly with people. I think people want to know that it's an organization, but it's really people. People respond to people. And you as the leader are saying like why this is causing you concern and how you're. This is the plans we have in place to address this dynamic environment that we'll be facing. So that's another form of crisis response.
- [20:06]
Julia Campbell
Oh, absolutely. Because communication should be relevant and timely and personal. And your donors, I always say this, are looking to you as the go to resource on issue on this problem. On, you know, you have your feet on the ground, you're in the trenches, you're actually delivering services, doing the research, you know, talking to people in the community. And me as a donor always have the time to do that. So I look to you, the non profit leader to tell me what's going on, what do I need to know? What are some trends that going into 2025, what are some of the sort of what's the scuttlebutt on the mission that I care about so deeply? So I love when organizations do sort of address headlines and news and talk about it. And I think that's a huge skill of leadership, not just our own little piece of the pie. But how does this affect other organizations in our community? But also how does this affect the cause and the issue as a whole that we are working on?
- [21:13]
David Rhode
Yeah, we're thought leaders, we're on the front lines. And whether it's the unhoused population or food insecurity or whatever, like other people in their day to day lives might care about those issues, but they can't be expected to know the ins and outs. And I think we can give them insight, we can give them a thoughtful way of understanding how problems are being addressed now, where we might be coming up short collectively as a society and how our organization is filling that gap and how those needs have changed. This problem used to be A, B and C and now it's D, E and F. And so organizations reimagined a lot of their programming in the pandemic. And I think this agility is an important characteristic of healthy organizations, is making sure that they are constantly refining what they deliver and making sure it's meeting the needs of the moment, not just what generally was the need at some point in the past.
- [22:12]
Julia Campbell
Absolutely. I totally agree. In your consulting work, you focus on mentoring and working with nonprofit CEOs. What are some of the biggest challenges that you see, especially new CEOs struggling with and how do you help them overcome these challenges?
- [22:30]
David Rhode
I guess I'd answer this in two ways. There's certain topics that people struggle with and then there's maybe certain work habits that people struggle with. On the topics side, I mean the big three are really strategic planning, board engagement and fundraising. These are the three legs of the stool that for most leaders they are. Hopefully there's only one of them that's causing a problem at a particular time. So they can still wobble around on the other two. That's not always the case. So the first three chapters in the book deal with strategic planning and board engagement and fundraising. Because I want that that sort of reflects my understanding of the biggest challenges facing most leaders. That's one side sort of topically I think from a standpoint of just how the job presents itself and sort of the challenges they face. It's really just lack of focus. This is. I come into the work, I may have come into work on a given day with a plan in my head about what I'm going to do and then I open the door and then so and so didn't make it into work that day. The toilet's clogged, I have an upset donor who's just sent me an email. I got this, I got a program that's coming, I got an event that's in three days. And all of these things just hijack your mental to do list or your actual to do list. And you never get to spend the time on the things that are sort of going to move the organization forward in a meaningful way. The bigger strategic challenges. I think Stephen Covey used to describe these things as important but not urgent. It's sort of like why. It's like why we never clean our room. Right. You know, it's. So here's the thing, they can't reshift their entire calendar to just work on long term things. That's not realistic. But if they were only spending make up a number 10% of their time on those things and they can move that to 20% then over a period of time that's going to make a big difference. If you were spending 10% of your time on fundraising for three months and can spend 20% of your time on fundraising for 3 months, you're going to notice meaningfully different results. So I think it's important for people to try to work at the margins and think about where they can find time. And a lot of that comes down to delegating. Trying to empower people that they don't need to bring everything to you. They can solve problems and encouraging them. And even if they don't get it exactly 100% right, don't shoot the messenger. Like encourage them to continue to handle things, say maybe next time you want to also consider this and just keep other people empowered and energized and independent so that you as the leader can free up some time. And sometimes maybe we got to work from home for a half a day so that we can get the things done that we need to do and then come in and you block that out on your calendar. People know that. But it's like, I need this time to do the following things and I can't get them done with all of the activity that's going on, like right in front of my face. Because for me as a leader, if I see something, my inclination is to like, go solve it. This problem solving sort of like gene runs strong and we need to recognize it, but it also can be our worst enemy because we just never get to the things that really need our attention. Because we, as the executive director are expected to lead the long term health of the organization, not just keep it afloat from day to day.
- [25:51]
Julia Campbell
How does the board fit in here? Because I know just from my own experience, board engagement can really sort of make or break an organization. So what are some strategies for leaders to build this sort of strong, proactive board that we need?
- [26:10]
David Rhode
It's a huge topic and I spend a lot of time on it in.
- [26:13]
Julia Campbell
The book because it touches everything.
- [26:16]
David Rhode
It does. It does. And the most critical problem I see is for leaders being too willing and too easy to give up board seats. Somebody is passionate about the organization, hey, I'll join your board. Oh, that'd be great. And all of a sudden you've got a board member and telling them, oh.
- [26:37]
Julia Campbell
It'S not a lot of work.
- [26:38]
David Rhode
And then they're. Then the. With, then they're in the board seat for three, six months. They don't really know what their responsibilities are. Then you're talking about fundraising and they're like, what? And this, that, and the other. So what I really think is critical is creating a clear, very transparent process where you share what the responsibilities are of a board member with the candidate up front and then you walk them through that document point by point. And you spend as much time as you need to on the issue of fundraising, if that is one of the challenges and opportunities that might exist within the roles that you envision for a board seat. But talk about, have you raised money before? And how do you feel about going out to your network and contacting people? If that makes them look like they're going to pass out, then that's a problem. But it's better to have that conversation up front.
- [27:31]
Julia Campbell
Yeah.
- [27:31]
David Rhode
Than it is after the fact. So I think it's, I think you should be precious with your board seats because the other thing that happens is if somebody is a prospective board member, the first thing that they ask is who else is on your board. So if that answer is my Aunt Harriet and my brother Joe and my neighbor Frank and whatever, whatever, and my high school sweetheart, whatever. The thing is, like, people join boards, they kind of want to expand their own networks. They want to expand, expand who they can interact with on a professional and maybe personal basis. And so you really think, have to think strategically about those board seats. And sometimes the earliest ones are the most critical because the right first few board members can attract that high level of other board members and the wrong few and guilty as charged. You know, for my first board, like, I, it was a friends and family program and, and, and I, I figured it out, but I had to turn the board over like two other times to kind of get it into the right space. So I think it's like, just because somebody is really willing to be a board member doesn't mean you should say yes. It means you should say, that's great. Let's talk about what that might involve versus that's great. Here's your diva pulse.
- [28:45]
Julia Campbell
Sit on our board.
- [28:46]
David Rhode
Right. Like, you know, you're really passionate or you've been a great volunteer, but that doesn't sort of necessarily, you know, equate to the next step unless they understand what's involved and they're ready to take on those responsibilities.
- [28:59]
Julia Campbell
Now let's talk about burnout in the sector, because nonprofit leaders really, I mean, they face some of the highest levels of stress and burnout, I think, in any professional situation. And when this is, you know, this episode is going to be released in the new year. What are some tips that you have for leaders that are experiencing this stress and burnout but really want to thrive, not just survive in 2025? That all runs.
- [29:28]
David Rhode
It does. It's beautiful. So one of the questions I asked each of these 22 subject matter experts that were kind enough to give of their time was, what advice would you give to somebody who is new to the role or new to an organization? And those collection of those nuggets all exist in a chapter, chapter 16, which is advice for new leaders. And so, because I felt there was so much there, and one of the things that I heard that I continue to hear from people when I talk to them is being an executive director is a bit of a lonely job. And Once they talk about it, it makes a little bit of sense. If they're smart. You just can't go talk to your staff about all the problems that you might be feeling and all the stresses that you might be having, because that's very demotivating them. Oh, we might not hit our budget. Okay, so that's fine for you to say, but what they're hearing is I might lose my job and this, that and the other. So you can't really talk to your staff and maybe be all that forthcoming for important reasons. You might not be able to be completely forthcoming with certain things about your board because frankly, they evaluate you. And so depending on the nature of the relationship you have. And again, if you're new to an organization, you might not have much history with the board. They're still starting to feel you out, you're still feeling them out. So one of the things I strongly encourage is trying to build a cohort, even if it's just two or three other nonprofit leaders that you can talk to, maybe somebody that's in your community running another organization, somebody meet at a conference or whatever. You can find people on LinkedIn. It's not hard. But the point is, have coffee, have drinks, like just have other people that you can talk to that aren't going to sit and judge you. That you can say, I'm having this problem and have them say, I'm having the same problem too. How do you handle this? And it's, it just could be a little bit of a very healthy sort of, in terms of like basic mental health, if you know that somebody else is going through some of the same things, you don't feel like this is just happening to you. And so I think that that notion of kind of finding some people and continually expanding that cohort is a really good exercise if people can think that way. The other thing that I think can help stave off burnout is sometimes we get very in our own in the weeds with the challenges of doing the job. That's a natural reaction. One of the things that I strongly encourage is getting out and going face to face with the programs that your organization runs. See the people that you're impacting, see your frontline staff, see your volunteers, talk to people whose lives are being transformed by the work of your organization. Just ask them some of the same open ended questions, how are we doing? How is this, how has this made a difference for you? And listen to them. And what I find is that those responses will be overwhelmingly positive. And that can sort of like fill you up with some positive energy, because there's a lot of things that drain. We have a lot of things that pull our good energy away. And so we better replace that. And so one of the ways to replace it is kind of go get out there and experience your own programs as often as you can. Because for most people, that's a very. That's sort of like why they got into the business in the first place. But the more we kind of, like, do the job of the executive director, we're worried about budgets, we're worried about board members. This meeting, we're worried about that meeting, and we get further and further away from the people that our organization is impacting. So I say, like, shorten that gap and get with those people as frequently as you can. And that energy, I think, is a good way to kind of just keep yourself refreshed and keep yourself moving in a good direction. And then it's some of the basics, like your mom would tell you, like, get enough sleep, eat, drink a lot of water, exercise. But we stop doing those things because our day keeps expanding and we run out of time. And it's, like, important to work out, it's important to eat well, it's important to get enough sleep. And sure, we could all get by for a few days with doing those things, like, not so well. But over time, that's. That's not a healthy environment for yourself. And you're not. You're not going to set a good example for the other people in your organization if you're. If you're run down. So you got to take care of yourself. And. And that's, you know, creating some boundaries and, and saying, like, I'm going to go home at certain time and, like, set an alarm on your phone and then say, see you tomorrow.
- [33:55]
Julia Campbell
And. Yeah, and you create that energy for your staff, too, if you're an executive director. And I've had bosses that run the gamut from emailing me and expecting a response at 12:30 on a Saturday, you know, to bosses that genuinely were like, no, and if I email you, they said, just it's an idea, or if I have a question, just ignore it until Monday. I just might be working and need to send it. But you are not expected to be on 24. 7. And they genuinely meant it because sometimes, you know, people don't mean it. But I also, I did have bosses that genuinely wanted me on 24. 7 and working crazy hours. And I remember at one point I worked for the African Presidential center at Boston University. Granted the time Zone was always a problem because we had to contact a variety of departments that were located in Africa. But I was expected to stay till 2am, 3am send faxes, send emails, make phone calls. This was when I was just starting out. So I think having those boundaries and understanding that you as the leader, that frantic energy that you have, that's going to translate down into your staff and probably increase burnout and stress for them.
- [35:07]
David Rhode
Well, you set the culture. You want an organization that acts and behaves a certain way. There's nobody that's going to have a bigger influence on that than the executive director. So if you want to have a positive, inclusive, this, that and the other environment, then you better walk that talk. And I think this notion of, again, part of it is people working remotely. Part of it is the beauty and the, and the downside of email. But we can communicate, whether it's slack channels or texting or whatever. Like, maybe there's got to be some rules, but it's also fine to just open it up and have a conversation with your staff. How do you feel about this? If I send you something, I hope you understand that I'm just doing it because it's on my mind. It doesn't. I expect you to work when you're here. I don't expect you to work on things. And if there are exceptions, I'll make it very clear that it's an exception. Hey, I'm really sorry. I need you to address this right now because that's a different. But they need to be exceptions to the rules. Not like the exception can't be like two out of three times you email them. It has to be like one out of 50, you know, at 9:00 at night, oh my God, something happened.
- [36:10]
Julia Campbell
So, absolutely. So what do you hope readers will take away from? Passion isn't enough. What is your sort of number one hope?
- [36:19]
David Rhode
I would like them to lead their organizations more successfully. I would like them to have more. I would like them to have more confidence. I would like them to feel more in control. I would like them to feel like they've got a plan. So many of these challenges, whether it's rebranding or hiring or maybe something that's really out of their wheelhouse. Maybe they'll have a better, a better game plan. They'll take something that's really big and they'll be able to break it down into some of its component parts and feel, okay, I'm not going to do a strategic plan all at once. I'm going to do the first stage and then I'm going to do the second stage and then I'm going to do the third stage. And so it feels like they're making progress and they can see the progress and they could tell people in advance what the process is going to look and feel like and they'll have more control. So I hope people will be more successful. I'm really hoping they don't feel so alone. I think if they feel like these problems are happening for other people, they will feel more connected and less like that they caused the problem that they're experiencing. Some of these things are just endemic to the sector a little bit. So those are some of the hopes. Again, I wish I had this information when I was starting out, because I did.
- [37:28]
Julia Campbell
You wrote the book you wish you had. I love that.
- [37:30]
David Rhode
Yeah, I just. If I could be me before I started, I would have done a little better job at the outs. I got a lot of things right, but I also got a few things really wrong and it took me a little while to fix them. And like the composition of my board, it's not that I didn't like the people and it's not that they weren't good people. It just I wasn't really thinking through the implications of how the structure of the board being comprised a certain way would. Would affect other things. So those are some of the things.
- [37:57]
Julia Campbell
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people get a copy of your book and where can they find you online and connect with you?
- [38:05]
David Rhode
The book is available at Amazon and it'll be available at Barnes and Noble online, and people can find it that way. I hang out a lot on LinkedIn. People should feel free to reach out to me there. They could also reach out to my consultancy, which is dot.org.com which is spelled out D O T D O t o r g.com so people can find me lots of different ways. I'm not hard to find.
- [38:29]
Julia Campbell
Awesome. David, thank you so much and thanks for involving me in the project. It was really fun.
- [38:34]
David Rhode
Julia, you were such a big help and I really enjoyed the conversation today. Thank you, foreign.
- [38:46]
Julia Campbell
Thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this. This tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.