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[00:01]
Sponsor Representative
This episode is sponsored by my friends at Bloomerang. You already know your donors care. You see it in every gift and every note that comes back with a check. What you might not know is what they're telling us right now in the data. Bloomerang's 2026 Giving Signal report surveyed more than 1,000 active donors. 91% say people need more help than ever, and 94% give more when they know exactly where their gift goes. The generosity is there. What's changed isn't the impulse to give. It's what donors need from you to say yes. The question is whether your organization is listening. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose, to help you understand your donors, to help you act on the right signals, and most importantly, to help you raise more. Download the free 2026 Giving Signal report@bloomerang.com that's B L O O M E r a n g.com and now on to the episode.
[01:10]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
[01:59]
Hello, this is Julia Campbell, your host of Nonprofit Nation. The question that we are asking today, what if the nonprofit sector speaks? Spent less time searching for the right answers and more time practicing the hard questions together. Today, I'm welcoming my longtime friend, collaborator, partner in crime, Tim Sarantonio, for a conversation about the future of generosity and the bold new experiments that he is launching to help nonprofit professionals navigate this increasingly complex world. So, Tim, welcome to the podcast.
[02:41]
Tim Sarantonio
Well, thank you for having me, Julia.
[02:43]
Julia Campbell
This is so exciting.
[02:44]
Tim Sarantonio
It is.
[02:46]
Julia Campbell
I know. This is really exciting. So tell us what you're launching and then we can get into your origin story. But I don't want to bury the lead.
[02:56]
Tim Sarantonio
Oh, you don't want to bury the lead. Okay, so I am doing a little bit of a one, two punch, so to speak, in that there's an educational gaming system that I have designed and have been play testing with at this point because of your help, say over 100 organizations, if not More than that since December. And the intention of it is to help streamline conversations in a creative and fun way. But alongside of it is the real vision, which is a peer learning network where we can use the lessons of the game where with each other to make ourselves more confident in our jobs, to find connections with people that we may not have been able to connect with otherwise. And overall just give a nice safer space to practice some of the decisions that we as professionals might make in our work.
[03:49]
Sponsor Representative
Cool.
[03:50]
Julia Campbell
So what problem did you see that convinced you to create the genet rosty spectrum? Because people that are maybe unfamiliar with your work, you spent years immersed in fundraising data and trends, working with the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, among others. So what problem did you see that caused you to create this?
[04:11]
Tim Sarantonio
Well around, around last year I also had the honor of joining the alliance for Social Trust, which is an initiative of the Aspen Institute. And I was explicitly asked to join their work group on bottom up Trust. And what I think I'm ultimately trying to help address here is that we need a better way to support practice based evidence. So what I mean by that is we have a lot of problems and obstacles that are holding our true potential back in the nonprofit sector. And the issue is that for a very, very long time we've taken a top down approach and said here, here are the best practices, this is what you should do. But, and it's not even a fundraising issue. I could talk about fundraising at length obviously, but, but program design, volunteer management, communications to your community, advocacy. What I saw, because I work with so many different people across foundations and businesses, individuals, you know, fundraisers, doing peer to peer, you know, advocates on Capitol Hill, all of these different tables that we are having conversations. We don't have a connective tissue. We keep having the same over and over. So that's honestly the biggest problem that I'm trying to solve is I'm sick of having to re explain the basics of generosity and identity being the most important things that people can embrace when trying to figure out how to solve a problem. And so the game just kind of makes that inherent philanthropic psychology interesting and usable. There's a lot of research that indicates that immersive experiences, because my background's in teaching immersive experiences, hands on, even virtual, you know, if it's a conversation as opposed to a lecture, you're going to retain that information at a much higher rate. And so how can we design something that can be immersive, fun and useful? Right. You still need to get the skeptical people who never are going to touch a role play situation normally in their, their real lives. How do you get those people to go, no, I'll, I'll test this out. And that's, that's what's been, you know, part of the journey to make sure that everybody can play this. It's not just for fundraisers, it's not just for nonprofits. Everybody has a seat at the table when it comes to generosity.
[06:42]
Julia Campbell
Is that. So that's why you chose gaming and role playing as the medium for this?
[06:46]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, look, so I, I got my start in the nonprofit sector in 2008 as, as one, a failed academic. You know, I went to school and then I could go into school, and then I did it again and I was really in debt and my father had flown to Chicago and he's like, you gotta get a job, like a real job. And. Cause I was working in coffee shops and I could make a mean, you know, latte white, you know, flat white, all that type of stuff. But like, the practical reality is, is that I always wanted to focus on bottom up trust. It's actually what I went to school for basically, is analyzing social movements, you know, people trying to make a difference at the grassroots level and their interactions with more institutionalized power. And so I said, okay, how do I want to do this? And eventually I ended up settling into a technology company and I was able to help it growed a pretty significant influence in the nonprofit sector. When I first started, the company only had like 300, you know, people using the software. And to my, you know, I left in November, but I think there's several thousand using it now. And you know, I was, I helped architect the brand vision and it was ultimately rooted in how do we connect with people, how do we make authentic, meaningful conversations in partnership alongside of people with technology. So last summer I said, yeah, technology's great, but like, it's not the only thing. In fact, most of the conversations I realized is people are having all of these webinars and they're downloading these templates and these guides and these checklists and going to conferences, and then they hit the meat grinder of reality and all of that dies at the table. And so I said, okay, let's step back. How can we get us all on the same page? And so the game is designed to do that and the network's designed to then make that spread across everybody.
[08:46]
Sponsor Representative
I love that.
[08:47]
Julia Campbell
No, I think that's so important. And I love that you pulled out the fact that we all go to conferences or we go to webinars and we get so much information, but we don't know how to apply it. And then there might also be underlying structural issues that are nonprofit or cultural issues that we cannot implement. All these great things that we've learned at a conference or in a webinar.
[09:12]
Tim Sarantonio
I'll tell a quick story that kind of exemplifies why I did it this way, because I've had a lot of people. Because, folks, if you're listening, the nonprofit sector does not have an educational gaming studio. There's nonprofits that focus on games. There's great conferences like Games for Change that just wrapped in New York City, for instance. But during my research, nobody really is focusing on two, like one critical audience, which is nonprofit professionals, and especially people who need to ensure that, like, the lights stay on.
[09:49]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[09:50]
Tim Sarantonio
And so there are professional associations, there's certificate courses. But the story that exemplifies this, I went to Kikon, which is put on by the nonprofit partnership over in Erie, Pennsylvania. Love them. Been working with them for a long time. I think you keynote them, Julia.
[10:07]
Julia Campbell
Yes. Yep.
[10:08]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, it's great conference. Love that conference. And they get great people. And so cheering Koshy was there. He's. He's an author. He's a. He's a leader in our sector. He's somebody I deeply respect and admire. And in fact, something in his book, Neuro Giving, helped inspire a pretty critical mechanic in the game. Mechanic meaning like a way the game works, a rule. Right. And so I sat. This is years ago, and a lot of this is just like 20 years of things just kind of spiraling into and coalescing into this vision. And I sat down after finishing a like, five hour workshop on recurring giving that I had done for a room of 40 people. And. And I said, oh, that's great. Let me take a break. Let me go watch Cherion. And he ended up making a lot of great recommendations that, if taken at face value, would have contradicted what I just told people. Nothing bad, nothing like, I love your conferences, but it's just like if I'm sitting there and that's just. And I went up to him afterwards and I told him this. I was like, cherion, what happens if, like, you. You could design a conference where, like, all of the talks actually support each other down to even the resources that we would propose? That is a lot of work. You and I know, because we will talk about this for the Nonprofit social media summit November 17th and 18th, that it's a lot of work and you can't control what people are going to say. You can't control how they think. You. And I also know that we don't like even being told what slide decks to use, let alone positioning of the whole thing. So that's an unrealistic way to approach a conference. But what happens if you can have something that unifies, no matter the room, no matter the space, no matter whether it's a conference or not, that core understanding of the conversation? And that's where the Generosity Roundtable was born. Not as a way to consult. I am not a consultant. I want to make that very clear. Juliet's got that covered. Right. There's a lot of people, and they're part of the advisory network. They're called the Guardians of the game. There's about 20 plus folks where I invited in that they're subject matter experts. And I've been told you're leaving money on the table. Right. Because you're not like, doing, let's just do a game for 10 people and charge them $10,000. And it's like, that's not the business model. That's not going to help the 97% of nonprofits who can't afford to go to the regional conference.
[12:45]
Sponsor Representative
Yes.
[12:45]
Tim Sarantonio
Let alone fly to, you know, San Diego or Baltimore next year for AFP Icon. Again, beautiful things happening there. But could we take what's happening in those hallways, those happy hours, and actually share it into a larger network? And that. And that's ultimately the vision. We can get into how that's going to work. But it's. It's ultimately, look, we're having so many conversations. Let's share. Share. It's a crowdsourced vision. And. And you see this in healthcare, you see this in aviation. You do the. This is how they do these things. So we're just simply catching up. And I just happen to be first. So.
[13:23]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[13:24]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah.
[13:24]
Julia Campbell
Oh, my gosh. And I've been excited to really witness this from the idea that you had
[13:32]
Tim Sarantonio
to, like, the very beginning. You're like, you're like basically the first person that, like, you helped birth this because you actually got it and then have been so generous with your time, your. Your thoughts, my random phone calls.
[13:48]
Julia Campbell
But I really believe in it, and I see it in my work. And we were just talking about maybe what kind of conversation we would want to have at the Nonprofit Social Media Summit, which is in November. Just go to nonprofit socialmediasummit.com and you can register for free. And we're going to be playing this game. We're going to be Having these discussions and integrating it throughout the summit. And I was saying a lot of my work is talking to marketing and fundraising people. Sometimes the same person having a contradiction in their own brain because they are two, have to be two different people. Or maybe they are two different people. And how can they reconcile and how can they have conversations that are not in a professional setting, that are in a more casual setting and a safer setting?
[14:35]
Tim Sarantonio
So let me, if you'll indulge me, let me take a little bit of time explaining how it works.
[14:40]
Julia Campbell
Yes, yes, yes. What happens during a generosity roundtable session.
[14:44]
Tim Sarantonio
Session. Right. Because all this talk about peer learning networks and grand scale experiments, none of that matters if like a small food bank in New Bedford, Massachusetts. I'm using my mother in law as an example here because she's also a guardian of the game, part of my advisors network and she's, she's kind of the person that I love to gut check. Like, is this fart sniffing, which is kind of my term for like indulgence, like unnecessary, like personal indulgence. And I think especially people listening. You know, one of the things that I learned at my last job was you have to put your audience first. Right. I loved reading people like Marty Neumeyer. The brand gap that really talks about like a brand is not the logo, it's not the product, it's not the game that I'm building. It's the feeling that you want people to have. And so I want somebody to be able to pick this up regardless of if they consider themselves a gamer or not. And by the way, the fastest growing and largest segment of gamers are like middle aged white women in this country. Well, if you play crosswords world. Right.
[15:53]
Julia Campbell
Mahjong.
[15:54]
Tim Sarantonio
Mahjong, right.
[15:56]
Julia Campbell
Starting a mahjong chapter here where I live.
[15:59]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, so. So people, games and creativity and play are not for kids. In fact, it is very well documented that things like role play, which is just giving yourself a bit of a distance from yourself and, and the decisions that are being made, it's like, oh, I'm gonna use this character, this avatar and I'm gonna put it into that. In corporate work, in work with children, for instance, there's research studies that show that people's confidence goes up, that their decision making clarity is much tighter. And so I ultimately settled on a role playing game because I feel like we can't always hire a Julia Campbell to come in and go, why are you doing it this way? So what you can for just like a one time cost of 500 bucks is to get this deck of cards, the supporting materials that help you organize a table wide conversation. If anybody's ever been part of a Jeffersonian dinner, or as my, our mutual friend Rachel d' Souza likes to call it, a Morrisonian dinner after Toni Morrison, all it is is a table wide conversation. And I've done this for years. Julia, you and I did these dinners pre Covid.
[17:14]
Julia Campbell
Yes, yes.
[17:15]
Tim Sarantonio
And so I said, wow, we have these great conversations. So why don't I make this a game basically? So you're having a conversation game. So you say, I'm going to play this character. There's 10 core archetypes rooted in general in philanthropic psychology, right? So Julia, you are the connector. You're the connector. And so what does the connector mean?
[17:37]
Julia Campbell
The connector, I mean, it's kind of in the name, focused on collaboration, focusing on getting the right experts the right answers. We talked about it before. It's very eldest daughter coded where we have to have the solution. And we really like, when we see a problem, we really want to fix it, but we want to connect people with the right resources.
[17:59]
Tim Sarantonio
And what's fascinating about that one is there's five categories and I've been honing this and studying this for, for I would say definitely the past four years in my personal life and then kind of validating that whenever doing presentations or looking at fundraising effectiveness project and research or, or the Aspen Institute work. And, and especially a lot of this is, is rooted in the studies that I had under Jen Shang at the Institute for Sustainable Philanthropy. So to distilling down that certificate course into. Look, people make decisions from a generosity standpoint, not money, but generosity. And this is not a nonprofit thing. I actually even designed this originally as a donor conversation game because it's like, why do we make a decision about philanthropy, about giving, about volunteering, about advocacy, about liking a tweet or whatever. And so people do it for benefits, right? They do it because they get something out of it. They do it for the reputation, they do it for the story. They do it for that kind of local connection, right. You know, you hear Dunkin Donuts, things might activate in you versus or Buc EE's, right. If I say like, like Stewart's, you know, if I say like even local convenience store chains, depending on where we are, right. Like that's going to activate something in people, right?
[19:24]
Sponsor Representative
Yeah.
[19:25]
Tim Sarantonio
And then finally more kind of global values, right. I don't want people to be hungry. These are all inherent to us. They're just whether they're stronger in the moment. And stronger as part of our identity. Self determination theory in, in regards to philanthropic psychology tells us we give because our identity validates that. Right. We don't feel guilted. We feel that the money's being well spent. We feel part of a community. But ultimately we see, as Seth Godin says, people like us do things like this. So that's kind of if I'm gonna. I'm gonna be like, he said, better than me. That's what you start as. But what's cool about the game is you don't have to play as yourself. Most people are very uncomfortable to start if they've never role played especially. And they're like, can I just be myself? Sure, go ahead. That's cool. Have fun with it, right? You know, give yourself a little bit of pizzazz. But like, it's a game, it's gonna take 20 minutes. It's okay. But I've had people our very first session. Ben Williams played it as his board president. He's the executive director of the Connect center, who's my fiscal sponsor. Cause we're actually funding this through a hybrid of traditional e commerce, sales and philanthropy. And so I have a fiscal sponsor. And he was like, I don't want to be me, I want to be my board member. He didn't fill out a character sheet. He just showed up. Right. All you had to do is look at something and go, oh, that sounds like this person. And then you say, we're going to talk about this topic and have this conversation outcome.
[20:59]
Julia Campbell
Right.
[20:59]
Tim Sarantonio
The very first thing my wife asked me was, how do you win?
[21:02]
Julia Campbell
No, A woman.
[21:03]
Tim Sarantonio
How do you win?
[21:04]
Julia Campbell
A conversation with my own heart. How do you win? But how do you know what I want to know? How do you.
[21:10]
Tim Sarantonio
So when you're sitting around a table though, of people having a discussion about a topic, how do you win in that? It's a collaborative story. How do you win in a collaborative story?
[21:20]
Julia Campbell
You win by coming to some kind of shared knowledge and some kind of shared solution that everyone has a stake in.
[21:28]
Tim Sarantonio
And that's it. It's a consensus game. The way that it speeds that up. Because otherwise I just described a well organized staff meeting. What makes it fun is that it's like you have to choose one of three cards. That's it. You got communications type cards, engagement type cards, operations type cards. This was after months of research and realizing that a donor facing game by itself was not going to be enough. Because every nonprofit person asked me, but what about me? What about my problems? So I said, okay, let's expand it. And now it's been adaptable to not just fundraising, but security protocols for national organizations who are worried about political overreach. I've played it with food banks who are trying to figure out that they got too many grants. And so, like, so now the grant people are like, you have too much money. Right. Like, what do you do in that situation? I had, I even talked with another guardian this morning where she wants to use it to wade through their strategic planning for the next five years and to kind of help move away from major gifts. Because as the Fundraising Effectiveness Project tells us, like, we're concentrating too much focus on that. So how do we expand things there? So it could be fundraising, but it could be so much more than that. So that's kind of how it works, folks. Now the best thing to do. And then I'll stop, you know, monologuing, because that's not a fun dialogue. Julia, we know that. Go online, watch Julia. The best games, the best rated games are not the ones that I've run. Julia has the best rated games.
[23:10]
Julia Campbell
Oh, when we did Megan. Megan Walsh. Is that last.
[23:14]
Tim Sarantonio
Megan Walsh and Mina Dawson and Mina
[23:17]
Julia Campbell
Das of Namaste Data and they unpacked what to do when you have too much data coming from too many places and too many sources and roots. Ethiopia. I will definitely get this wrong, but I will put the proper stats in the show notes. They operate in one country, but throughout the entire country. And then they have chapters across the United States that help them raise awareness and raise money. So they're not just local, but they're very small.
[23:47]
Tim Sarantonio
It's very volunteer driven, I think. Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, that's.
[23:51]
Julia Campbell
How do they manage all of this?
[23:52]
Tim Sarantonio
If even that. Yeah. So that was kind of. And we developed that scenario and that's kind of what, what, what the vision of the Peer Learning Network is, is that there's a lot of Megans.
[24:02]
Sponsor Representative
Yes.
[24:03]
Tim Sarantonio
And we want to make sure that Megan doesn't feel alone. Megan gets the benefit of learning from people like Mina and Julia and the 20 plus other guardians that we have in the network. And it's not just like consultants. Right. Because a lot of times I think if you look at the, you know, the traditional tech company approach right now, get a consultant up, they do a webinar, maybe you'll hear a bit about a product or a service at the end, go home and print out your checklist and maybe start working through it. We got to think differently about problem solving. So I feel that learning from Amigan is so much more powerful than sitting and listening to a webinar, in my opinion. So we're going to do those monthly, virtually, culminating in a nationwide knock on wood game on Nov. 18 at the nonprofit Social Media Summit.
[24:55]
Julia Campbell
So, and if you're on my mailing list, you can get, you'll get all that information. You can also go to generosity spectrum.org sign up, learn more, do your archetype. Get your character archetype and really dive into what it really looks like. Tim what has surprised people the most when they sit down and they realize there isn't one correct way to play this game. There isn't one correct answer.
[25:23]
Tim Sarantonio
It's probably that it's that I think that my tagline for this is that this is a game that takes generosity seriously. And I feel that what I mean by that is we have boxed ourselves in on what the answers are. And especially people feel that pressure because they're being told constantly, almost on a daily, if not hourly basis, that if you do not adopt AI, you're going to die, you're going to lose everything. And it's like, no, you're not. I tell you for a fact right now, you're not. Do you have to take into account. Absolutely. Absolutely. And part of the cool thing about what we're doing with artificial intelligence is using it for sense making, where I could take sessions that Julia and I have played and compare and contrast that against other workshops, other sessions that people like Floyd Jones might play or Amber Melanie Smith or Tim Parsons from Idealist. Like, these are people who we're going to help share in, and AI can help analyze that type of stuff, but we're just constantly being told we're going to get left behind. And Mina's, Mina said something unrelated to our work here, but it stuck with me. She's like, this is a train and the train's going to come back and, and, and you can get on the train. And so I just want people to feel that they have a space where they can, they can fail, right? I've screwed up so many things getting this off the ground, folks, right? Like, like paying fines because I didn't understand New York sales tax, for instance, right? It was just like, I, I took out a thing and I wasn't supposed to take out a thing, and now I'm good. Like, everything's on the up and up financially, by the way. But, like, you know, it's learning, it's learning. It's just like, okay, pay the $50 fine because I filed a piece of paperwork late. Okay, good. Right. Like, no harm, no foul. It's okay. We're going to learn and we need that type of environment for nonprofit people. I keep going back and there's another. One of our launch partners is Sanjay Bindra of the GIVE study. He's done some really amazing work with his small nonprofit. And he talks about, he's in healthcare and he's like, we have this in healthcare all the time. Like doctors can. You're not going to let a surgeon practice on somebody for the first time. Right. So why are we doing that with like, generosity, which is even more inherent and, and, and vibrant within all of us? Like, not everybody can be a doctor, but everybody could be generous. Everybody is inherently everybody. Well, bad systems are what enable bad people. Well, no, and I truly, I truly feel that, that, you know, there's maybe a small amount of people who, they've, they've burned true generosity and empathy out of their system. But if we think about the 99% of the people.
[28:20]
Julia Campbell
I agree. You're an optimist.
[28:22]
Tim Sarantonio
I am an optimist. And reality is, is that it's inherent to all of us. And even when I've had some struggles. Right. Like, corporate America is kind of weird, especially now with AI folks. And the reality is, is that we need more spaces where you can take risks with people that understand you. And that's, that's all I want to build. And that's, that's what I'm so, you know, honored to be able to work with people like you to do that. But it's okay. Like, you know, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. It's working really well so far, though.
[28:58]
Julia Campbell
Well, let's talk about the nonprofit Social Media Summit, which we are also working on together. What made you. I know we've been a part of it from the very, very, very beginning. 2019.
[29:12]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah.
[29:13]
Julia Campbell
What made you think that this community was the right home for the roundtable?
[29:18]
Tim Sarantonio
You and I have talked for years that I've been obsessed with getting an in person component to it.
[29:25]
Julia Campbell
Yes. We're getting back to in person things now.
[29:29]
Tim Sarantonio
Are. We are. There's a lot of like, like, I pay attention a lot to cultural trends. I. If you've ever watched me speak, watch me write. I try to tie a lot of LinkedIn stuff where I tie popular culture into how people understand all of this. Right. Like, I draw a lot of inspiration from Lego, Nintendo, Disney Entertainment companies. Again, I am not a consultant. I'm a game studio. And so it needs to feel fun. That is the number one word that gets used for our work is fun. And so if we're going to live through the definition that my daughter Maggie gave me this past weekend of fun, I want people who are participating in the summit, for instance, to. I said, maggie, what does fun mean to you? And she goes, it's doing something you enjoy and you get to participate in.
[30:25]
Julia Campbell
Oh, I want to do a survey and ask a bunch of kids what they think fun means. Yeah, that's so great. We'll get such good insights. I'll ask.
[30:34]
Tim Sarantonio
I know you can learn a lot from kids, Right. I have young daughters. I. I listen to them a lot. It has obviously influenced the play aspect. You know, is it cool to get LEGO Serious Play certified and, you know, hang out with my daughters and get Legos and have new LEGO friends? Yeah. But the summit itself, it's a virtual conference. So how do we not only take the virtual play sessions that we've been doing, thanks to our partnership with Bloomerang. Right. Like, we were able to get this off the ground early because Bloomerang believed in the vision not only for the virtual summit, but for the in person. And so the idea is everybody who participates and hosts a game in their own community, you could go to a bar, you can go to a coffee shop, you can go to a picnic. It's going to be in November, so maybe you're probably going to be indoors, depending on where you are. But, you know, we got our friends in Texas and Louisiana and stuff like that. San Diego. Caitlin Wyon. Right. And we're going to give everybody the same game to play, and we're going to have everybody share the results of their game. Because I've been able to figure out two simple sheets. It's like, fill this out, fill this out, scan it, take a picture of it. That's it. That's all I need. And that's actually because I've been able to work with Giving Tuesday. They gave me a grant for Together Tuesday to even do some of this stuff in person. So I've been testing these. So you're not a guinea pig if you join us on November 18th. And so everybody who wants to host the game, you'll be able to participate. And we got some extra special goodies planned for you as well, just by being part of the host network. So I can't wait to kind of roll that out.
[32:19]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[32:20]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, we'll figure out that game a little bit later after we listen to
[32:25]
Julia Campbell
our community of where I want to have my Event.
[32:29]
Tim Sarantonio
It is in the Boston area. Right.
[32:31]
Julia Campbell
Bar, restaurant. Yes. And, well, it's in Beverly, Massachusetts. Uh, it's called the Castle. So by the way, I have not approached them, but it's right off the train station. So if you are in Boston, you can just take the train to Beverly. It's really half an hour, maybe.
[32:47]
Tim Sarantonio
Jealous.
[32:48]
Julia Campbell
But I have.
[32:48]
I have to the train station. So it's accessible to pretty much everybody. And it's an awesome place. It's an awesome place.
[32:54]
Tim Sarantonio
The only drawback is that we're going to be separate.
[32:57]
Julia Campbell
I know.
[32:58]
Tim Sarantonio
Because we're. We have to. I have to cover upstate New York, and I'm very excited to do that. But.
[33:02]
Julia Campbell
Yeah.
[33:03]
Tim Sarantonio
And that's what's kind of cool, is that we have some businesses coming in who are also wanting to. Beyond just kind of traditional sponsorship type stuff. It's like, we even have some businesses who they're just sick of getting golf sponsorship requests. So my local chiropractor is even going to be able to be part of the table because they're like, we'll donate. Let's get matched up with a nonprofit and they'll get the box. I would love to have then Mike at Hoosik Family practice come on in to our local game and be part of that. Right. Like, we have to build. One of the most influential things that I did earlier this year was go to newtpunt, which is a Nordic live action role playing conference. Yep. I was in Yutabori, Sweden. And Nordic LARPing is a. If you don't know what live action role playing is, it's like, don't worry. We're not trying to get anybody to do that at this point. But it's like, I'm going to dress up. I'm going to immerse myself in person and play potentially even a whole weekend game. There's a lot that doesn't apply yet to our work here. Right. I got to stress, folks, if I came back and start talking about, like, we're going to dress up for the weekend and make, you know, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[34:23]
Julia Campbell
I do always enjoy a theme and dressing up.
[34:25]
Tim Sarantonio
Well, I have one host, part of the Advisors network, who wants to do a simulation of a gala gone wrong. We will get there. We need to build our safety mechanisms in. We need to ensure that the resources are there for that type of stuff. But I think the biggest thing that I learned there is one about possibilities. Right. Like, imagine the different ways that we can learn together just through that idea alone. But the most powerful thing I learned there was they'd leave a seat at a table always open. If you're at the conference and you sit down at a table and it is full, it is your responsibility as the last person who sat down to go get another chair. I got to actually do this. When I was in AFP Icon in San Diego, I went to the Give Butter party. I was there with Marcus Cunningham. He's out in Texas. He's my Fort Worth, you know, guardian of the game. And we were sitting down, bunch of people sat down, all the chairs were taken. And I ran over and I put another chair right next and somebody went and sat down. And we just kind of kept doing that as long as it made sense. Imagine a world, imagine a society where that is the default behavior and that's ultimately the value that comes out of this is that things should be fun. It doesn't mean that it's easy, but you always should have a seat at the table when it comes to generosity. So I think that that's what I'm so excited to actually put into practice with people on November 18th. And we'll do it on the 17th, right. We're gonna have some fun and games virtually and then we'll go into the end of the year strong and we got some big ideas, Julia, beyond that. But this is what I know that we can promise.
[36:19]
Julia Campbell
Well, as we're wrapping up, tell us more about the launch and how we can get this game.
[36:24]
Tim Sarantonio
So if you're listening now, it should be launch week and so if you go to generosityspectrum.com you'll be able to inventory pending. And let's be realistic, even though I've produced 500 games and it would be glorious to be out of that by the end of the week, I don't think that's going to happen, but I feel pretty confident that people are going to be excited about this because we already have about a half dozen people who've reserved it. So that's something that, you know, if you were really interested, I'm capping it at 500 for this year only because I want to pause and make sure that everybody's supported for like the summit. That's it. I don't need to be.
[36:59]
Julia Campbell
We want to really make this like a hands on support.
[37:01]
Tim Sarantonio
I want to make this hands on.
[37:03]
Julia Campbell
Right.
[37:03]
Tim Sarantonio
Like 500 is aspirational. We can make it work for 50 people. Right. And we, we already have at least half of that. So we're in a good spot. But I Want as many people to help build this as possible because it's a real prior learning network. You get to connect with people like you who are having the same problems as you. You're not paying the $500 if you're buying it on your own. For a box. The box is beautiful. You get some really cool supporting materials. You know all the cards, all the game mechanics. But technically, Julia, somebody can go to my Wikipedia, play the game without paying a dime. All the rules are there. I published all of the rules. You can just like Dungeons and Dragons, you can get a piece of paper and you can write out things and play the characters. And that's not the point. The point is to give the infrastructure for us to learn together. And the game unifies that. And it's a high quality thing. You get a canvas bag, you get some zines, booklets, a mint, but you're having a conversation. But I'm going to keep the corporate social responsibility option open year round. This is where a business of any size, where an individual can donate. Through our fiscal sponsor, the Connect center and Peer Learning Spaces fund funds a box. So Julia and the other guardians of the game, if people don't have a nonprofit that they've already said I want this organization to get it, we will match them with a nonprofit in an under recognized community that matches their generosity identity. I plan on doing interviews with the people who sponsor boxes. And so if you're a nonprofit, just go to generosityspectrum.org, pick one up. We'll start mailing them out next week. If you're listening to this after launch, pending inventory, we'll open it up back in September and November. It's always going to be aligned with our road to the summit campaign. Again, thanks to Bloomerang, I wouldn't be able to have done any of this.
[39:01]
Julia Campbell
So you love Bloomerang.
[39:03]
Tim Sarantonio
We love Bloomerang. Who would have thought those words coming out of my. I've always loved Bloomerang because they've supported the fundraising effectiveness Project, but now I have a different relationship and that's, that's fun, right? It's, it's not about an individual tech company and that's, that's companies who really get that, like Bloomerang. Good. United Donor. Perfect. Better unite clickbid. These are people who have stepped up and I'm so grateful for them believing in it. And so that's going to be an opportunity too. Hey, tell your board member if you don't have 500 bucks yourself, get, get your board member to go Gift it to you.
[39:34]
Julia Campbell
Yep, yep. Or work with one of your corporate sponsors. Because I. That's a really great, tangible thing. Like you were saying, the CSR piece that your chiropractor really wanted. Something more tangible. Yeah. Than a golf.
[39:47]
Tim Sarantonio
Something. Yeah.
[39:48]
Julia Campbell
That they could use in perpetuity. So, you know, something that. That is.
[39:54]
Tim Sarantonio
And, and we're going to, we. We have to think about this holistically. So the biggest thing is I'm talking with some foundations, for instance, there's some grants that I've submitted for because that's the be intentional about. Okay. Let's draw a circle around this community. Like imagine, Julia, that you get the capacity where like we're going to do a dedicated nationwide social media study on how nonprofits do things. Right. Like, we need help. We need philanthropic support to do that. Because if we rely on our corporate partners, they're going to ask for lists for all of that stuff. And that's great for certain things. Right. We are so excited when people opt in and do that because that's how we approach our community is you want to be here, be here. But research needs to be protected from kind of transactional influence. And that's where I'm excited about. The long term vision here is building that peer learning research infrastructure so we can all learn together without worrying what's happening to my data. So that's very important to me. That's where the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, Giving Tuesday has helped me and GivingTuesday is part of my work here. So this is going to be something that I'm extraordinarily excited to see where we go.
[41:12]
Julia Campbell
All right. Generosity spectrum.org and nonprofitsocialmediasummit.com you'll get all the information and we'll be in touch. But thanks so much, Tim, for being on the podcast. So much fun stuff to come. Foreign,
[41:33]
I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this
[41:51]
tells other other people that my podcast
[41:54]
is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it.
[42:02]
I'll be back soon with a brand
[42:03]
new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Julia Campbell, 77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.
[42:18]
Sam.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Episode: Rethinking Generosity Through Play, Practice, and Community with Tim Sarrantonio

Date: July 29, 2026
Guest: Tim Sarrantonio
Host: Julia Campbell

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Julia Campbell speaks with Tim Sarrantonio about his innovative approach to nonprofit learning and community-building through the lens of play, role-playing games, and peer networks. Centered on Tim's new project—the Generosity Spectrum educational game and its peer learning network—the conversation explores the future of generosity, why traditional educational models aren’t enough, and how nonprofits can reimagine practicing generosity as a communal, iterative experience rather than a checklist of top-down “best practices.” Touching on philanthropy psychology, the limitations of typical conferences, and experimental community events like the upcoming Nonprofit Social Media Summit, this episode challenges listeners to get creative, support each other, and make room for play in serious work.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Genesis of the Generosity Spectrum Project

Tim’s Launch: Tim introduces an “educational gaming system” playtested with 100+ organizations, designed “to help streamline conversations in a creative and fun way,” along with a broader “peer learning network” for nonprofit professionals (02:55).
Core Goal: The vision is to create a safer space for nonprofit colleagues to practice key decisions, build confidence, and connect outside the constraints of traditional trainings or conference panels.

“What I saw... We don’t have a connective tissue. We keep having the same conversations over and over. So that's honestly the biggest problem that I'm trying to solve—I'm sick of having to re-explain the basics of generosity and identity being the most important things that people can embrace when trying to figure out how to solve a problem.”—Tim Sarrantonio (05:16)

2. Problems in Nonprofit Education and Training

Practice Over Theory: Tim points out that the sector leans heavily on top-down “best practices,” while lacking space for bottom-up, practice-based evidence and shared learning (04:11).
Conference Fatigue: Julia and Tim both describe how knowledge from conferences often fails to translate into real-world action due to cultural and structural barriers within organizations (08:46).
Role of Play: Tim’s background in education and love for immersive, hands-on learning inspire the use of games and role-play (06:41).

"All of these webinars and...guides and checklists and conferences, and then they hit the meat grinder of reality and all of that dies at the table. ...The game is designed to get us back on the same page."—Tim Sarrantonio (07:50)

3. Why Gaming?

Breaking the Mold: No one else is creating games specifically for nonprofit staff—not just consultants or organizations focused peripherally on games (09:11).
Inclusivity: “Everyone has a seat at the table when it comes to generosity.”—Tim (06:19)
Real-Life Scenarios: The game derives from practical challenges (e.g., volunteer management, too many grants, teamwork), not just fundraising.
Role-Playing and Archetypes: The game uses ten archetypes rooted in philanthropic psychology; players can choose avatars, facilitating deeper and less personally risky discussions (15:54).

4. How the Generosity Spectrum Game Works

Structure:
- Each session is a table-wide, Jeffersonian-style conversation game.
- Players may pick archetypes (e.g., The Connector).
- Scenarios cover a range of nonprofit dilemmas, and players draw from communication, engagement, and operations cards to drive consensus-building.
- It’s a “consensus game”—members win by reaching shared understanding (21:27).
Accessibility: Not limited to seasoned fundraisers or “gamers.” Designed for practical use even by small/local nonprofits.

“The fastest growing and largest segment of gamers are like middle aged white women in this country… Games and creativity and play are not for kids.”—Tim Sarrantonio (15:54)

Example: A session with a small, volunteer-driven nonprofit (Roots Ethiopia) focused on “what to do when you have too much data from too many sources,” demonstrating adaptability (23:09).
Peer Learning Impact: Real-world scenarios and peer connections outpace what webinars or one-off workshops can provide.

5. Community, Optimism, and Psychological Safety

Generosity as Serious Play: Tim’s tagline: “This is a game that takes generosity seriously.”
Permission to Fail: The learning environment allows for mistakes and experimentation—mirroring medical fields where professionals practice in safe settings before real-world stakes (25:22).
Optimism:
- “I am an optimist. And reality is... it's inherent to all of us.” (28:22)
- "Not everybody can be a doctor, but everybody can be generous." (27:30)

6. The Nonprofit Social Media Summit & Play in Community

Why this Summit: Upcoming November event is ideal for debuting the Generosity Roundtable due to its creative, participatory community (29:13).
Hybrid Experience: Virtual and in-person options (in Boston-area and upstate NY), encouraging real-world gathering and play (32:31).
Inclusivity at the Table: Inspired by Nordic LARP culture, Tim shares the principle that “you always should have a seat at the table when it comes to generosity” (34:22).

“Imagine a world, imagine a society where that is the default behavior... things should be fun. Doesn't mean it's easy, but you always should have a seat at the table when it comes to generosity.”—Tim Sarrantonio (35:01)

7. Getting Involved and Future Vision

How to Join:
- Game boxes ($500) will be available through generosityspectrum.org; limited first print run (500 units for 2026).
- Organizations can apply for sponsored sets via corporate social responsibility partners.
- Rules are published online for DIY/informal play.
Intentional Growth: Tim is capping initial distribution to ensure hands-on support and true peer learning, not just product sales (36:24).
Research and Data: Long-term vision includes crowdsourced, community-driven research—building nonprofit capacity for problem-solving (39:53).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

On the sector’s challenge:
“We don't have a connective tissue... I'm sick of having to re-explain the basics of generosity and identity.”—Tim Sarrantonio (05:16)
On play and confidence:
“There’s research studies that show that people’s confidence goes up, that their decision-making clarity is much tighter.” (15:54)
On learning from each other:
“Learning from a Megan is so much more powerful than sitting and listening to a webinar, in my opinion.”—Tim Sarrantonio (24:03)
On permission to fail:
“I just want people to feel that they have a space where they can fail, right? …And we need that type of environment for nonprofit people.” (26:12)
On designing for inclusion:
“Everybody has a seat at the table when it comes to generosity.” (06:19)
On the aspiration for community:
“Imagine a world, imagine a society where that is the default behavior…” (35:01)
On the role of fun:
“Fun is doing something you enjoy and you get to participate in.” —Tim’s daughter Maggie (30:24)

Notable Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:55 | Tim reveals the Generosity Spectrum project | | 04:11 | Problem with current nonprofit training | | 06:41 | Why choose gaming and role-playing | | 09:11 | Need for nonprofit-centered games | | 15:54 | Psychology of play and inclusivity | | 17:36 | Example: "The Connector" archetype | | 21:09 | How to “win” the game—consensus and collaboration | | 23:09 | Real-world example and peer learning impact | | 25:22 | Embracing experimentation and practice | | 28:22 | Optimism about generosity and collective potential | | 29:13 | Why the Social Media Summit is the perfect launch spot | | 32:31 | Upcoming hybrid play event logistics | | 34:22 | Inspiration from Nordic LARP; inclusivity at the table | | 36:24 | How to access the game—focus on true peer learning | | 39:53 | Vision for community-driven nonprofit research |

Additional Resources

Generosity Spectrum Info & Game Orders: generosityspectrum.org
Nonprofit Social Media Summit Registration: nonprofitsocialmediasummit.com

This episode is a call to action for nonprofit professionals to make space for play, practice, and imperfect learning—so they can build stronger, more supportive communities and foster generosity from the ground up.

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Transcript102 lines

[00:01]
Sponsor Representative
This episode is sponsored by my friends at Bloomerang. You already know your donors care. You see it in every gift and every note that comes back with a check. What you might not know is what they're telling us right now in the data. Bloomerang's 2026 Giving Signal report surveyed more than 1,000 active donors. 91% say people need more help than ever, and 94% give more when they know exactly where their gift goes. The generosity is there. What's changed isn't the impulse to give. It's what donors need from you to say yes. The question is whether your organization is listening. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose, to help you understand your donors, to help you act on the right signals, and most importantly, to help you raise more. Download the free 2026 Giving Signal report@bloomerang.com that's B L O O M E r a n g.com and now on to the episode.
[01:10]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
[01:59]
Hello, this is Julia Campbell, your host of Nonprofit Nation. The question that we are asking today, what if the nonprofit sector speaks? Spent less time searching for the right answers and more time practicing the hard questions together. Today, I'm welcoming my longtime friend, collaborator, partner in crime, Tim Sarantonio, for a conversation about the future of generosity and the bold new experiments that he is launching to help nonprofit professionals navigate this increasingly complex world. So, Tim, welcome to the podcast.
[02:41]
Tim Sarantonio
Well, thank you for having me, Julia.
[02:43]
Julia Campbell
This is so exciting.
[02:44]
Tim Sarantonio
It is.
[02:46]
Julia Campbell
I know. This is really exciting. So tell us what you're launching and then we can get into your origin story. But I don't want to bury the lead.
[02:56]
Tim Sarantonio
Oh, you don't want to bury the lead. Okay, so I am doing a little bit of a one, two punch, so to speak, in that there's an educational gaming system that I have designed and have been play testing with at this point because of your help, say over 100 organizations, if not More than that since December. And the intention of it is to help streamline conversations in a creative and fun way. But alongside of it is the real vision, which is a peer learning network where we can use the lessons of the game where with each other to make ourselves more confident in our jobs, to find connections with people that we may not have been able to connect with otherwise. And overall just give a nice safer space to practice some of the decisions that we as professionals might make in our work.
[03:49]
Sponsor Representative
Cool.
[03:50]
Julia Campbell
So what problem did you see that convinced you to create the genet rosty spectrum? Because people that are maybe unfamiliar with your work, you spent years immersed in fundraising data and trends, working with the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, among others. So what problem did you see that caused you to create this?
[04:11]
Tim Sarantonio
Well around, around last year I also had the honor of joining the alliance for Social Trust, which is an initiative of the Aspen Institute. And I was explicitly asked to join their work group on bottom up Trust. And what I think I'm ultimately trying to help address here is that we need a better way to support practice based evidence. So what I mean by that is we have a lot of problems and obstacles that are holding our true potential back in the nonprofit sector. And the issue is that for a very, very long time we've taken a top down approach and said here, here are the best practices, this is what you should do. But, and it's not even a fundraising issue. I could talk about fundraising at length obviously, but, but program design, volunteer management, communications to your community, advocacy. What I saw, because I work with so many different people across foundations and businesses, individuals, you know, fundraisers, doing peer to peer, you know, advocates on Capitol Hill, all of these different tables that we are having conversations. We don't have a connective tissue. We keep having the same over and over. So that's honestly the biggest problem that I'm trying to solve is I'm sick of having to re explain the basics of generosity and identity being the most important things that people can embrace when trying to figure out how to solve a problem. And so the game just kind of makes that inherent philanthropic psychology interesting and usable. There's a lot of research that indicates that immersive experiences, because my background's in teaching immersive experiences, hands on, even virtual, you know, if it's a conversation as opposed to a lecture, you're going to retain that information at a much higher rate. And so how can we design something that can be immersive, fun and useful? Right. You still need to get the skeptical people who never are going to touch a role play situation normally in their, their real lives. How do you get those people to go, no, I'll, I'll test this out. And that's, that's what's been, you know, part of the journey to make sure that everybody can play this. It's not just for fundraisers, it's not just for nonprofits. Everybody has a seat at the table when it comes to generosity.
[06:42]
Julia Campbell
Is that. So that's why you chose gaming and role playing as the medium for this?
[06:46]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, look, so I, I got my start in the nonprofit sector in 2008 as, as one, a failed academic. You know, I went to school and then I could go into school, and then I did it again and I was really in debt and my father had flown to Chicago and he's like, you gotta get a job, like a real job. And. Cause I was working in coffee shops and I could make a mean, you know, latte white, you know, flat white, all that type of stuff. But like, the practical reality is, is that I always wanted to focus on bottom up trust. It's actually what I went to school for basically, is analyzing social movements, you know, people trying to make a difference at the grassroots level and their interactions with more institutionalized power. And so I said, okay, how do I want to do this? And eventually I ended up settling into a technology company and I was able to help it growed a pretty significant influence in the nonprofit sector. When I first started, the company only had like 300, you know, people using the software. And to my, you know, I left in November, but I think there's several thousand using it now. And you know, I was, I helped architect the brand vision and it was ultimately rooted in how do we connect with people, how do we make authentic, meaningful conversations in partnership alongside of people with technology. So last summer I said, yeah, technology's great, but like, it's not the only thing. In fact, most of the conversations I realized is people are having all of these webinars and they're downloading these templates and these guides and these checklists and going to conferences, and then they hit the meat grinder of reality and all of that dies at the table. And so I said, okay, let's step back. How can we get us all on the same page? And so the game is designed to do that and the network's designed to then make that spread across everybody.
[08:46]
Sponsor Representative
I love that.
[08:47]
Julia Campbell
No, I think that's so important. And I love that you pulled out the fact that we all go to conferences or we go to webinars and we get so much information, but we don't know how to apply it. And then there might also be underlying structural issues that are nonprofit or cultural issues that we cannot implement. All these great things that we've learned at a conference or in a webinar.
[09:12]
Tim Sarantonio
I'll tell a quick story that kind of exemplifies why I did it this way, because I've had a lot of people. Because, folks, if you're listening, the nonprofit sector does not have an educational gaming studio. There's nonprofits that focus on games. There's great conferences like Games for Change that just wrapped in New York City, for instance. But during my research, nobody really is focusing on two, like one critical audience, which is nonprofit professionals, and especially people who need to ensure that, like, the lights stay on.
[09:49]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[09:50]
Tim Sarantonio
And so there are professional associations, there's certificate courses. But the story that exemplifies this, I went to Kikon, which is put on by the nonprofit partnership over in Erie, Pennsylvania. Love them. Been working with them for a long time. I think you keynote them, Julia.
[10:07]
Julia Campbell
Yes. Yep.
[10:08]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, it's great conference. Love that conference. And they get great people. And so cheering Koshy was there. He's. He's an author. He's a. He's a leader in our sector. He's somebody I deeply respect and admire. And in fact, something in his book, Neuro Giving, helped inspire a pretty critical mechanic in the game. Mechanic meaning like a way the game works, a rule. Right. And so I sat. This is years ago, and a lot of this is just like 20 years of things just kind of spiraling into and coalescing into this vision. And I sat down after finishing a like, five hour workshop on recurring giving that I had done for a room of 40 people. And. And I said, oh, that's great. Let me take a break. Let me go watch Cherion. And he ended up making a lot of great recommendations that, if taken at face value, would have contradicted what I just told people. Nothing bad, nothing like, I love your conferences, but it's just like if I'm sitting there and that's just. And I went up to him afterwards and I told him this. I was like, cherion, what happens if, like, you. You could design a conference where, like, all of the talks actually support each other down to even the resources that we would propose? That is a lot of work. You and I know, because we will talk about this for the Nonprofit social media summit November 17th and 18th, that it's a lot of work and you can't control what people are going to say. You can't control how they think. You. And I also know that we don't like even being told what slide decks to use, let alone positioning of the whole thing. So that's an unrealistic way to approach a conference. But what happens if you can have something that unifies, no matter the room, no matter the space, no matter whether it's a conference or not, that core understanding of the conversation? And that's where the Generosity Roundtable was born. Not as a way to consult. I am not a consultant. I want to make that very clear. Juliet's got that covered. Right. There's a lot of people, and they're part of the advisory network. They're called the Guardians of the game. There's about 20 plus folks where I invited in that they're subject matter experts. And I've been told you're leaving money on the table. Right. Because you're not like, doing, let's just do a game for 10 people and charge them $10,000. And it's like, that's not the business model. That's not going to help the 97% of nonprofits who can't afford to go to the regional conference.
[12:45]
Sponsor Representative
Yes.
[12:45]
Tim Sarantonio
Let alone fly to, you know, San Diego or Baltimore next year for AFP Icon. Again, beautiful things happening there. But could we take what's happening in those hallways, those happy hours, and actually share it into a larger network? And that. And that's ultimately the vision. We can get into how that's going to work. But it's. It's ultimately, look, we're having so many conversations. Let's share. Share. It's a crowdsourced vision. And. And you see this in healthcare, you see this in aviation. You do the. This is how they do these things. So we're just simply catching up. And I just happen to be first. So.
[13:23]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[13:24]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah.
[13:24]
Julia Campbell
Oh, my gosh. And I've been excited to really witness this from the idea that you had
[13:32]
Tim Sarantonio
to, like, the very beginning. You're like, you're like basically the first person that, like, you helped birth this because you actually got it and then have been so generous with your time, your. Your thoughts, my random phone calls.
[13:48]
Julia Campbell
But I really believe in it, and I see it in my work. And we were just talking about maybe what kind of conversation we would want to have at the Nonprofit Social Media Summit, which is in November. Just go to nonprofit socialmediasummit.com and you can register for free. And we're going to be playing this game. We're going to be Having these discussions and integrating it throughout the summit. And I was saying a lot of my work is talking to marketing and fundraising people. Sometimes the same person having a contradiction in their own brain because they are two, have to be two different people. Or maybe they are two different people. And how can they reconcile and how can they have conversations that are not in a professional setting, that are in a more casual setting and a safer setting?
[14:35]
Tim Sarantonio
So let me, if you'll indulge me, let me take a little bit of time explaining how it works.
[14:40]
Julia Campbell
Yes, yes, yes. What happens during a generosity roundtable session.
[14:44]
Tim Sarantonio
Session. Right. Because all this talk about peer learning networks and grand scale experiments, none of that matters if like a small food bank in New Bedford, Massachusetts. I'm using my mother in law as an example here because she's also a guardian of the game, part of my advisors network and she's, she's kind of the person that I love to gut check. Like, is this fart sniffing, which is kind of my term for like indulgence, like unnecessary, like personal indulgence. And I think especially people listening. You know, one of the things that I learned at my last job was you have to put your audience first. Right. I loved reading people like Marty Neumeyer. The brand gap that really talks about like a brand is not the logo, it's not the product, it's not the game that I'm building. It's the feeling that you want people to have. And so I want somebody to be able to pick this up regardless of if they consider themselves a gamer or not. And by the way, the fastest growing and largest segment of gamers are like middle aged white women in this country. Well, if you play crosswords world. Right.
[15:53]
Julia Campbell
Mahjong.
[15:54]
Tim Sarantonio
Mahjong, right.
[15:56]
Julia Campbell
Starting a mahjong chapter here where I live.
[15:59]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, so. So people, games and creativity and play are not for kids. In fact, it is very well documented that things like role play, which is just giving yourself a bit of a distance from yourself and, and the decisions that are being made, it's like, oh, I'm gonna use this character, this avatar and I'm gonna put it into that. In corporate work, in work with children, for instance, there's research studies that show that people's confidence goes up, that their decision making clarity is much tighter. And so I ultimately settled on a role playing game because I feel like we can't always hire a Julia Campbell to come in and go, why are you doing it this way? So what you can for just like a one time cost of 500 bucks is to get this deck of cards, the supporting materials that help you organize a table wide conversation. If anybody's ever been part of a Jeffersonian dinner, or as my, our mutual friend Rachel d' Souza likes to call it, a Morrisonian dinner after Toni Morrison, all it is is a table wide conversation. And I've done this for years. Julia, you and I did these dinners pre Covid.
[17:14]
Julia Campbell
Yes, yes.
[17:15]
Tim Sarantonio
And so I said, wow, we have these great conversations. So why don't I make this a game basically? So you're having a conversation game. So you say, I'm going to play this character. There's 10 core archetypes rooted in general in philanthropic psychology, right? So Julia, you are the connector. You're the connector. And so what does the connector mean?
[17:37]
Julia Campbell
The connector, I mean, it's kind of in the name, focused on collaboration, focusing on getting the right experts the right answers. We talked about it before. It's very eldest daughter coded where we have to have the solution. And we really like, when we see a problem, we really want to fix it, but we want to connect people with the right resources.
[17:59]
Tim Sarantonio
And what's fascinating about that one is there's five categories and I've been honing this and studying this for, for I would say definitely the past four years in my personal life and then kind of validating that whenever doing presentations or looking at fundraising effectiveness project and research or, or the Aspen Institute work. And, and especially a lot of this is, is rooted in the studies that I had under Jen Shang at the Institute for Sustainable Philanthropy. So to distilling down that certificate course into. Look, people make decisions from a generosity standpoint, not money, but generosity. And this is not a nonprofit thing. I actually even designed this originally as a donor conversation game because it's like, why do we make a decision about philanthropy, about giving, about volunteering, about advocacy, about liking a tweet or whatever. And so people do it for benefits, right? They do it because they get something out of it. They do it for the reputation, they do it for the story. They do it for that kind of local connection, right. You know, you hear Dunkin Donuts, things might activate in you versus or Buc EE's, right. If I say like, like Stewart's, you know, if I say like even local convenience store chains, depending on where we are, right. Like that's going to activate something in people, right?
[19:24]
Sponsor Representative
Yeah.
[19:25]
Tim Sarantonio
And then finally more kind of global values, right. I don't want people to be hungry. These are all inherent to us. They're just whether they're stronger in the moment. And stronger as part of our identity. Self determination theory in, in regards to philanthropic psychology tells us we give because our identity validates that. Right. We don't feel guilted. We feel that the money's being well spent. We feel part of a community. But ultimately we see, as Seth Godin says, people like us do things like this. So that's kind of if I'm gonna. I'm gonna be like, he said, better than me. That's what you start as. But what's cool about the game is you don't have to play as yourself. Most people are very uncomfortable to start if they've never role played especially. And they're like, can I just be myself? Sure, go ahead. That's cool. Have fun with it, right? You know, give yourself a little bit of pizzazz. But like, it's a game, it's gonna take 20 minutes. It's okay. But I've had people our very first session. Ben Williams played it as his board president. He's the executive director of the Connect center, who's my fiscal sponsor. Cause we're actually funding this through a hybrid of traditional e commerce, sales and philanthropy. And so I have a fiscal sponsor. And he was like, I don't want to be me, I want to be my board member. He didn't fill out a character sheet. He just showed up. Right. All you had to do is look at something and go, oh, that sounds like this person. And then you say, we're going to talk about this topic and have this conversation outcome.
[20:59]
Julia Campbell
Right.
[20:59]
Tim Sarantonio
The very first thing my wife asked me was, how do you win?
[21:02]
Julia Campbell
No, A woman.
[21:03]
Tim Sarantonio
How do you win?
[21:04]
Julia Campbell
A conversation with my own heart. How do you win? But how do you know what I want to know? How do you.
[21:10]
Tim Sarantonio
So when you're sitting around a table though, of people having a discussion about a topic, how do you win in that? It's a collaborative story. How do you win in a collaborative story?
[21:20]
Julia Campbell
You win by coming to some kind of shared knowledge and some kind of shared solution that everyone has a stake in.
[21:28]
Tim Sarantonio
And that's it. It's a consensus game. The way that it speeds that up. Because otherwise I just described a well organized staff meeting. What makes it fun is that it's like you have to choose one of three cards. That's it. You got communications type cards, engagement type cards, operations type cards. This was after months of research and realizing that a donor facing game by itself was not going to be enough. Because every nonprofit person asked me, but what about me? What about my problems? So I said, okay, let's expand it. And now it's been adaptable to not just fundraising, but security protocols for national organizations who are worried about political overreach. I've played it with food banks who are trying to figure out that they got too many grants. And so, like, so now the grant people are like, you have too much money. Right. Like, what do you do in that situation? I had, I even talked with another guardian this morning where she wants to use it to wade through their strategic planning for the next five years and to kind of help move away from major gifts. Because as the Fundraising Effectiveness Project tells us, like, we're concentrating too much focus on that. So how do we expand things there? So it could be fundraising, but it could be so much more than that. So that's kind of how it works, folks. Now the best thing to do. And then I'll stop, you know, monologuing, because that's not a fun dialogue. Julia, we know that. Go online, watch Julia. The best games, the best rated games are not the ones that I've run. Julia has the best rated games.
[23:10]
Julia Campbell
Oh, when we did Megan. Megan Walsh. Is that last.
[23:14]
Tim Sarantonio
Megan Walsh and Mina Dawson and Mina
[23:17]
Julia Campbell
Das of Namaste Data and they unpacked what to do when you have too much data coming from too many places and too many sources and roots. Ethiopia. I will definitely get this wrong, but I will put the proper stats in the show notes. They operate in one country, but throughout the entire country. And then they have chapters across the United States that help them raise awareness and raise money. So they're not just local, but they're very small.
[23:47]
Tim Sarantonio
It's very volunteer driven, I think. Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, that's.
[23:51]
Julia Campbell
How do they manage all of this?
[23:52]
Tim Sarantonio
If even that. Yeah. So that was kind of. And we developed that scenario and that's kind of what, what, what the vision of the Peer Learning Network is, is that there's a lot of Megans.
[24:02]
Sponsor Representative
Yes.
[24:03]
Tim Sarantonio
And we want to make sure that Megan doesn't feel alone. Megan gets the benefit of learning from people like Mina and Julia and the 20 plus other guardians that we have in the network. And it's not just like consultants. Right. Because a lot of times I think if you look at the, you know, the traditional tech company approach right now, get a consultant up, they do a webinar, maybe you'll hear a bit about a product or a service at the end, go home and print out your checklist and maybe start working through it. We got to think differently about problem solving. So I feel that learning from Amigan is so much more powerful than sitting and listening to a webinar, in my opinion. So we're going to do those monthly, virtually, culminating in a nationwide knock on wood game on Nov. 18 at the nonprofit Social Media Summit.
[24:55]
Julia Campbell
So, and if you're on my mailing list, you can get, you'll get all that information. You can also go to generosity spectrum.org sign up, learn more, do your archetype. Get your character archetype and really dive into what it really looks like. Tim what has surprised people the most when they sit down and they realize there isn't one correct way to play this game. There isn't one correct answer.
[25:23]
Tim Sarantonio
It's probably that it's that I think that my tagline for this is that this is a game that takes generosity seriously. And I feel that what I mean by that is we have boxed ourselves in on what the answers are. And especially people feel that pressure because they're being told constantly, almost on a daily, if not hourly basis, that if you do not adopt AI, you're going to die, you're going to lose everything. And it's like, no, you're not. I tell you for a fact right now, you're not. Do you have to take into account. Absolutely. Absolutely. And part of the cool thing about what we're doing with artificial intelligence is using it for sense making, where I could take sessions that Julia and I have played and compare and contrast that against other workshops, other sessions that people like Floyd Jones might play or Amber Melanie Smith or Tim Parsons from Idealist. Like, these are people who we're going to help share in, and AI can help analyze that type of stuff, but we're just constantly being told we're going to get left behind. And Mina's, Mina said something unrelated to our work here, but it stuck with me. She's like, this is a train and the train's going to come back and, and, and you can get on the train. And so I just want people to feel that they have a space where they can, they can fail, right? I've screwed up so many things getting this off the ground, folks, right? Like, like paying fines because I didn't understand New York sales tax, for instance, right? It was just like, I, I took out a thing and I wasn't supposed to take out a thing, and now I'm good. Like, everything's on the up and up financially, by the way. But, like, you know, it's learning, it's learning. It's just like, okay, pay the $50 fine because I filed a piece of paperwork late. Okay, good. Right. Like, no harm, no foul. It's okay. We're going to learn and we need that type of environment for nonprofit people. I keep going back and there's another. One of our launch partners is Sanjay Bindra of the GIVE study. He's done some really amazing work with his small nonprofit. And he talks about, he's in healthcare and he's like, we have this in healthcare all the time. Like doctors can. You're not going to let a surgeon practice on somebody for the first time. Right. So why are we doing that with like, generosity, which is even more inherent and, and, and vibrant within all of us? Like, not everybody can be a doctor, but everybody could be generous. Everybody is inherently everybody. Well, bad systems are what enable bad people. Well, no, and I truly, I truly feel that, that, you know, there's maybe a small amount of people who, they've, they've burned true generosity and empathy out of their system. But if we think about the 99% of the people.
[28:20]
Julia Campbell
I agree. You're an optimist.
[28:22]
Tim Sarantonio
I am an optimist. And reality is, is that it's inherent to all of us. And even when I've had some struggles. Right. Like, corporate America is kind of weird, especially now with AI folks. And the reality is, is that we need more spaces where you can take risks with people that understand you. And that's, that's all I want to build. And that's, that's what I'm so, you know, honored to be able to work with people like you to do that. But it's okay. Like, you know, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. It's working really well so far, though.
[28:58]
Julia Campbell
Well, let's talk about the nonprofit Social Media Summit, which we are also working on together. What made you. I know we've been a part of it from the very, very, very beginning. 2019.
[29:12]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah.
[29:13]
Julia Campbell
What made you think that this community was the right home for the roundtable?
[29:18]
Tim Sarantonio
You and I have talked for years that I've been obsessed with getting an in person component to it.
[29:25]
Julia Campbell
Yes. We're getting back to in person things now.
[29:29]
Tim Sarantonio
Are. We are. There's a lot of like, like, I pay attention a lot to cultural trends. I. If you've ever watched me speak, watch me write. I try to tie a lot of LinkedIn stuff where I tie popular culture into how people understand all of this. Right. Like, I draw a lot of inspiration from Lego, Nintendo, Disney Entertainment companies. Again, I am not a consultant. I'm a game studio. And so it needs to feel fun. That is the number one word that gets used for our work is fun. And so if we're going to live through the definition that my daughter Maggie gave me this past weekend of fun, I want people who are participating in the summit, for instance, to. I said, maggie, what does fun mean to you? And she goes, it's doing something you enjoy and you get to participate in.
[30:25]
Julia Campbell
Oh, I want to do a survey and ask a bunch of kids what they think fun means. Yeah, that's so great. We'll get such good insights. I'll ask.
[30:34]
Tim Sarantonio
I know you can learn a lot from kids, Right. I have young daughters. I. I listen to them a lot. It has obviously influenced the play aspect. You know, is it cool to get LEGO Serious Play certified and, you know, hang out with my daughters and get Legos and have new LEGO friends? Yeah. But the summit itself, it's a virtual conference. So how do we not only take the virtual play sessions that we've been doing, thanks to our partnership with Bloomerang. Right. Like, we were able to get this off the ground early because Bloomerang believed in the vision not only for the virtual summit, but for the in person. And so the idea is everybody who participates and hosts a game in their own community, you could go to a bar, you can go to a coffee shop, you can go to a picnic. It's going to be in November, so maybe you're probably going to be indoors, depending on where you are. But, you know, we got our friends in Texas and Louisiana and stuff like that. San Diego. Caitlin Wyon. Right. And we're going to give everybody the same game to play, and we're going to have everybody share the results of their game. Because I've been able to figure out two simple sheets. It's like, fill this out, fill this out, scan it, take a picture of it. That's it. That's all I need. And that's actually because I've been able to work with Giving Tuesday. They gave me a grant for Together Tuesday to even do some of this stuff in person. So I've been testing these. So you're not a guinea pig if you join us on November 18th. And so everybody who wants to host the game, you'll be able to participate. And we got some extra special goodies planned for you as well, just by being part of the host network. So I can't wait to kind of roll that out.
[32:19]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
[32:20]
Tim Sarantonio
Yeah, we'll figure out that game a little bit later after we listen to
[32:25]
Julia Campbell
our community of where I want to have my Event.
[32:29]
Tim Sarantonio
It is in the Boston area. Right.
[32:31]
Julia Campbell
Bar, restaurant. Yes. And, well, it's in Beverly, Massachusetts. Uh, it's called the Castle. So by the way, I have not approached them, but it's right off the train station. So if you are in Boston, you can just take the train to Beverly. It's really half an hour, maybe.
[32:47]
Tim Sarantonio
Jealous.
[32:48]
Julia Campbell
But I have.
[32:48]
I have to the train station. So it's accessible to pretty much everybody. And it's an awesome place. It's an awesome place.
[32:54]
Tim Sarantonio
The only drawback is that we're going to be separate.
[32:57]
Julia Campbell
I know.
[32:58]
Tim Sarantonio
Because we're. We have to. I have to cover upstate New York, and I'm very excited to do that. But.
[33:02]
Julia Campbell
Yeah.
[33:03]
Tim Sarantonio
And that's what's kind of cool, is that we have some businesses coming in who are also wanting to. Beyond just kind of traditional sponsorship type stuff. It's like, we even have some businesses who they're just sick of getting golf sponsorship requests. So my local chiropractor is even going to be able to be part of the table because they're like, we'll donate. Let's get matched up with a nonprofit and they'll get the box. I would love to have then Mike at Hoosik Family practice come on in to our local game and be part of that. Right. Like, we have to build. One of the most influential things that I did earlier this year was go to newtpunt, which is a Nordic live action role playing conference. Yep. I was in Yutabori, Sweden. And Nordic LARPing is a. If you don't know what live action role playing is, it's like, don't worry. We're not trying to get anybody to do that at this point. But it's like, I'm going to dress up. I'm going to immerse myself in person and play potentially even a whole weekend game. There's a lot that doesn't apply yet to our work here. Right. I got to stress, folks, if I came back and start talking about, like, we're going to dress up for the weekend and make, you know, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[34:23]
Julia Campbell
I do always enjoy a theme and dressing up.
[34:25]
Tim Sarantonio
Well, I have one host, part of the Advisors network, who wants to do a simulation of a gala gone wrong. We will get there. We need to build our safety mechanisms in. We need to ensure that the resources are there for that type of stuff. But I think the biggest thing that I learned there is one about possibilities. Right. Like, imagine the different ways that we can learn together just through that idea alone. But the most powerful thing I learned there was they'd leave a seat at a table always open. If you're at the conference and you sit down at a table and it is full, it is your responsibility as the last person who sat down to go get another chair. I got to actually do this. When I was in AFP Icon in San Diego, I went to the Give Butter party. I was there with Marcus Cunningham. He's out in Texas. He's my Fort Worth, you know, guardian of the game. And we were sitting down, bunch of people sat down, all the chairs were taken. And I ran over and I put another chair right next and somebody went and sat down. And we just kind of kept doing that as long as it made sense. Imagine a world, imagine a society where that is the default behavior and that's ultimately the value that comes out of this is that things should be fun. It doesn't mean that it's easy, but you always should have a seat at the table when it comes to generosity. So I think that that's what I'm so excited to actually put into practice with people on November 18th. And we'll do it on the 17th, right. We're gonna have some fun and games virtually and then we'll go into the end of the year strong and we got some big ideas, Julia, beyond that. But this is what I know that we can promise.
[36:19]
Julia Campbell
Well, as we're wrapping up, tell us more about the launch and how we can get this game.
[36:24]
Tim Sarantonio
So if you're listening now, it should be launch week and so if you go to generosityspectrum.com you'll be able to inventory pending. And let's be realistic, even though I've produced 500 games and it would be glorious to be out of that by the end of the week, I don't think that's going to happen, but I feel pretty confident that people are going to be excited about this because we already have about a half dozen people who've reserved it. So that's something that, you know, if you were really interested, I'm capping it at 500 for this year only because I want to pause and make sure that everybody's supported for like the summit. That's it. I don't need to be.
[36:59]
Julia Campbell
We want to really make this like a hands on support.
[37:01]
Tim Sarantonio
I want to make this hands on.
[37:03]
Julia Campbell
Right.
[37:03]
Tim Sarantonio
Like 500 is aspirational. We can make it work for 50 people. Right. And we, we already have at least half of that. So we're in a good spot. But I Want as many people to help build this as possible because it's a real prior learning network. You get to connect with people like you who are having the same problems as you. You're not paying the $500 if you're buying it on your own. For a box. The box is beautiful. You get some really cool supporting materials. You know all the cards, all the game mechanics. But technically, Julia, somebody can go to my Wikipedia, play the game without paying a dime. All the rules are there. I published all of the rules. You can just like Dungeons and Dragons, you can get a piece of paper and you can write out things and play the characters. And that's not the point. The point is to give the infrastructure for us to learn together. And the game unifies that. And it's a high quality thing. You get a canvas bag, you get some zines, booklets, a mint, but you're having a conversation. But I'm going to keep the corporate social responsibility option open year round. This is where a business of any size, where an individual can donate. Through our fiscal sponsor, the Connect center and Peer Learning Spaces fund funds a box. So Julia and the other guardians of the game, if people don't have a nonprofit that they've already said I want this organization to get it, we will match them with a nonprofit in an under recognized community that matches their generosity identity. I plan on doing interviews with the people who sponsor boxes. And so if you're a nonprofit, just go to generosityspectrum.org, pick one up. We'll start mailing them out next week. If you're listening to this after launch, pending inventory, we'll open it up back in September and November. It's always going to be aligned with our road to the summit campaign. Again, thanks to Bloomerang, I wouldn't be able to have done any of this.
[39:01]
Julia Campbell
So you love Bloomerang.
[39:03]
Tim Sarantonio
We love Bloomerang. Who would have thought those words coming out of my. I've always loved Bloomerang because they've supported the fundraising effectiveness Project, but now I have a different relationship and that's, that's fun, right? It's, it's not about an individual tech company and that's, that's companies who really get that, like Bloomerang. Good. United Donor. Perfect. Better unite clickbid. These are people who have stepped up and I'm so grateful for them believing in it. And so that's going to be an opportunity too. Hey, tell your board member if you don't have 500 bucks yourself, get, get your board member to go Gift it to you.
[39:34]
Julia Campbell
Yep, yep. Or work with one of your corporate sponsors. Because I. That's a really great, tangible thing. Like you were saying, the CSR piece that your chiropractor really wanted. Something more tangible. Yeah. Than a golf.
[39:47]
Tim Sarantonio
Something. Yeah.
[39:48]
Julia Campbell
That they could use in perpetuity. So, you know, something that. That is.
[39:54]
Tim Sarantonio
And, and we're going to, we. We have to think about this holistically. So the biggest thing is I'm talking with some foundations, for instance, there's some grants that I've submitted for because that's the be intentional about. Okay. Let's draw a circle around this community. Like imagine, Julia, that you get the capacity where like we're going to do a dedicated nationwide social media study on how nonprofits do things. Right. Like, we need help. We need philanthropic support to do that. Because if we rely on our corporate partners, they're going to ask for lists for all of that stuff. And that's great for certain things. Right. We are so excited when people opt in and do that because that's how we approach our community is you want to be here, be here. But research needs to be protected from kind of transactional influence. And that's where I'm excited about. The long term vision here is building that peer learning research infrastructure so we can all learn together without worrying what's happening to my data. So that's very important to me. That's where the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, Giving Tuesday has helped me and GivingTuesday is part of my work here. So this is going to be something that I'm extraordinarily excited to see where we go.
[41:12]
Julia Campbell
All right. Generosity spectrum.org and nonprofitsocialmediasummit.com you'll get all the information and we'll be in touch. But thanks so much, Tim, for being on the podcast. So much fun stuff to come. Foreign,
[41:33]
I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this
[41:51]
tells other other people that my podcast
[41:54]
is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it.
[42:02]
I'll be back soon with a brand
[42:03]
new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Julia Campbell, 77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.
[42:18]
Sam.