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- [00:00]
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- [00:58]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry.
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Experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between.
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To get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice. Definitely definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
- [01:46]
Okay. Hi everyone. This is the Nonprofit Nation podcast with your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about science and storytelling and what if science wasn't just about data, but about meaning? And what if stories were our most powerful technology for building a better future? And today I'm joined by Dr. Vivian Ming, theoretical neuroscientist, delusional inventor and founder of the Human Trust. And we're going to have a hopefully mind expanding conversation about the stories we tell about science, progress and ourselves. And Vivian's known for using AI, neuroscience and epigenetics. We're going to learn all about that to tackle impossible, quote, unquote impossible problems, from detecting postpartum depression to transforming global economic inclusion. But what drives her work isn't just data. It's a deep belief in human capacity, creativity and and meaning. Dr. Vivian Ming, welcome to the podcast.
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Dr. Vivian Ming
It's so much fun to be here. I'm looking forward to everything.
- [02:57]
Julia Campbell
Yes, I love it. I love, really love your background. Now, you can't see the video, but it's very, it's amazing. Are those all of the books that you've written?
- [03:06]
Dr. Vivian Ming
So you know, if you've never written a book before the right thing to do is to write three at the same time. Okay. Plus a screenplay. So I have a little landing pattern of books. How to robot proof your kids. Yes. The tax on being different and small sacrifices. And then my writing assistant really liked one of my ideas for a screenplay that is in some way easy to describe, in some ways hard. It's sort of a love story, but I'm a nerdy neuroscientist, so just imagine that there's something involving the brain. And what does it really mean to love someone if you can't remember them?
- [03:48]
Julia Campbell
I love it. It's. So if you. You can't see the background right now, but it's four beautiful framed posters. Absolutely amazing. So I want. I do want to talk about a couple of your books, but I first want to start with the way you describe yourself in your bio, because it's so different and it's. I thought it was really cool. You describe yourself as a delusional inventor and mad scientist with a mission. So tell me about how you came to this and how. How does this help you reimagine what scientists can. Can do for society?
- [04:19]
Dr. Vivian Ming
The way I came to this, sort of professionally speaking, is that I was an academic originally. I had a joint appointment at Stanford and Berkeley and when I was an undergrad. Although my story is a little more complex than I'm going to make it out to be, let's just skip that for now and just say when I was an undergrad and I was interviewing to go to grad school, I told people that I wanted to build cyborgs and they would all scoot away from.
- [04:48]
Julia Campbell
Me for fear that my crazy, like Terminator 2 or.
- [04:52]
Dr. Vivian Ming
Well, clearly that's what everyone has in mind, is I'm going. Or Westworld, all of us into the Borg or Terminator or what have you. But what I really mean is imagine a kid with traumatic brain injury whose working memory, your ability to keep something in mind at any given moment, has been taken away from them and it's going to change the rest of their life. Or at the opposite extreme, advancing Alzheimer's or any number of challenges and emotion regulation disorder. Some of my work right now is in Alzheimer's. It's in postpartum and perimenopausal depression. All these issues. I'm a science fiction nerd. So when I became an academic, I thought, well, what if I could build some of the things I kind of dreamed about, I read about, but do it in service of building a better person? And I hope in the sense that all of us would agree that we're talking about how long we get to live, how many friends we have, our walking speed at age 65. We look at a couple of dozen different life outcomes, the robustness of your social network. Don't pick one. Look at all of them. And which ones will we all agree to? And what makes all of those life outcomes better? And so if I want to build cyborgs, what I really mean is I want to help people do the things they can't do for themselves, because something has taken that away. A very tangible example would be my son, who has both diabetes and type 1 and autism. And in my career, at different moments, I got to build an AI that could read people's facial expressions to help autistic kids learn how to read facial expressions through natural interactions. And then, actually, right when my son was diagnosed, I hacked all of his medical devices. It turns out I broke all sorts of US Federal laws, which another story I got to tell President Obama about face to face once. He thought I was a crazy person. Little did I know at the time, I built the first AI for diabetes to treat my own son. And let me end here, because this is a podcast about nonprofits. The best part of that whole story is once I built it for my son, I just gave it away. No patents, no licenses, no strings attached. I just told every company that was interested how to build it themselves.
- [07:29]
Julia Campbell
That's amazing. I can believe that you met Barack Obama, but the fact that you came from this north star of I want to create a cyborg, which people potentially could think is dangerous, but you're thinking of it as a way to help humanity. First of all, that's very science fiction. I'm a huge science fiction fan, so we could talk about science fiction for hours, But I think that's the absolute way to approach things. I also do think that translates into the nonprofit world because often we have these innovative ideas that we think people might, you know, they might take as crazy or they might take as, oh, this is way out there. This can't be done. This is quote, unquote, impossible. And then we kind of get those ideas shot down. So you have said before, and I'm really interested in science as a story as well, because you've said that science is a story we tell ourselves about why the world is the way it is. And I think what my audience tends to struggle with is storytelling and telling this complex story of they see the future like you did, like, they see a vision for the future. How can we get better at storytelling? And how can we even get better at translating these complex ideas into our stories?
- [08:51]
Dr. Vivian Ming
You know, I mean, the origination of that idea, that science is a story, I wish I could say it came from me. I guess it would make a better story if it did. And let's all sign up for the Liberty Valance version of this print. The legend, not the truth. As long as the legend is still in service of the truth. But the truth is maybe even better. Here. This is advice I got from my graduate research advisor, who got it from his graduate research advisor, who, interestingly enough, my grand advisor, John Hopfield, just won the Nobel prize in physics for his work, his foundational work in artificial intelligence. But I think the important part of the story isn't simply, hey, give a good talk. It's true. After being an academic scientist, I've started a whole lot of companies and done a lot of philanthropic work. And the one thing that holds true across all of those domains is, let's say my job is the chief scientist and co founder of a new startup. I learned along the way it isn't explaining the science to people because how would they possibly understand? They're not my grad student. They're not going to take the next five years to slowly build up an understanding. This isn't a condemnation of people's intelligence. It's just this is very nerdy, detailed stuff. I'm actually not that interested in the technical details of how the chief marketing officer is executing their plan or how the chief technology officer is executing on the engineering. What I discovered is my job is, first is the business. How does the science inform our business mission? And that is equally true, let's say if you're a science leader inside a nonprofit. How does the science inform our mission? What do we need to understand about it to move forward? But I hope this doesn't sound a little too bleak. But it isn't even just that. My job is to make them believe that I've got it covered, that they can trust that I have those technical details in hand so that we as an organization can execute. And so my job is to take all of these clues a little bit like Sherlock Holmes. I've got a funny tan line on a finger and a slight lilt to your accent and a bit of a limp. And suddenly I've put together, admittedly, very implausibly, this whole story about how you were an officer in Afghanistan and you did this and therefore you were guilty. Well, here I have all of these experiments, not just the Ones I did. Not just the ones. I agree with all of the experiments conducted in my field, all of the theoretical research in my field. And I need a story. Not for everyone else, for me, the story that explains all of it, all of these clues. And here's kind of a heartbreaking part of it. The story is never going to be true. The world is just too complicated to know what the real story is.
- [12:11]
Julia Campbell
Right.
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Dr. Vivian Ming
But what we work on as scientists is advancing that story and occasionally throwing it out and coming up with a whole new one that sits even better. And the one step beyond telling a story as a scientist to telling a story as a leader is now in telling that story, I need to bring everyone along with me. What did it feel like when my son had his diagnosis? Yes. What sort of existential moment was it when I realized on a Wednesday that he couldn't stand up anymore and we didn't know why? And we rush into his doctor's office the four days after that when we're in the Oakland Pediatric Intensive Care Unit of Oakland Children's Hospital and I'm on a cot next to him for four days, catching 10 minutes of sleep as they're slowly titrating his blood glucose levels back down to a level that won't kill him. His body's literally eating itself. And even though we got to live leave as a whole family, probably half of those families there with us for what was a Thanksgiving holiday didn't get to leave as a whole family. And the perspective that gives you. Yeah, I built an AI that does some technical things and makes predictions and involving blood glucose. But really what I did is that I was a mom and I happened to have a certain expertise that I could see a story and the data coming out of my son's body, a story that his doctors couldn't see because they didn't happen to have that expertise. But it was that story that became, if you will, the solution, that became this model that I built and the little app I built for my own son. And once you've done that, you've realized I need to capture some of the emotions of my audience so they understand the story in the same way I understand it, what it's like to get a life threatening diagnosis for your child and to feel helpless and then suddenly realize, wait a minute, I have a superpower that almost no one else in the world has. And I can use the superpower to not just change my son's life, but to change the life of a million other kids in the United states with type 1 diabetes and millions and millions more around the world. And the coda to that story is, as you can imagine, a kid with type 1 and autism. He has hard days. And when they're really hard, he and I can sit down and talk about how millions of people will be alive because this. We were the right family for this terrible thing to happen to. There's all sorts of science and engineering underlying that story, but it doesn't add anything to it unless you wanted to build it yourself. And then I'm happy to talk through those details. But being able to tell the story explains to your audience how they should understand that problem. Not how I understand it, but to evoke in them the same kind of understanding that I hold. That's what's important to me when I get the chance to get up on a stage. And to me, even though that's a very personal story, it's fundamentally a story about science.
- [15:39]
Julia Campbell
And what's so important about storytelling is exactly what you said. I mean, that's what's going to get people to pay attention, that's what's going to get people to listen, and that's what's going to actually get them to understand what you're saying. So if you started out just with the science and how you built the AI without sharing that background, a lot of people, if you're speaking, I feel like, because I'm a speaker as well, I feel like with. Without that personal story, maybe people wouldn't get that connection. And that's what I do feel like is lacking in some nonprofit communication is we jump right into the solution. We jump right into, like, what we're doing and how we're doing it. And here's the data and here's the statistics, but we lack the context around the why, the why we're doing it.
- [16:30]
Dr. Vivian Ming
I mean, the funny thing is, I'm hard number scientist and a happy nerd. And usually when I leave a stage, I feel like I wasn't detailed enough. I should have had equations, because that's what I want to see.
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Julia Campbell
Exactly.
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Dr. Vivian Ming
But it turns out almost no one else in the whole world, even scientists, are, let's say, soporific. The number of equations and directly proportional to the amount of snoring in the audience, unless they're mathematicians. And, you know, I can even give some insight as a neuroscientist, because is one thing to understand intellectually, like what's going on in parts of my lateral prefrontal cortex as I'm thinking through literally what you just said and playing through the logical elements of it. But again and again in my own research, we see people fully intellectually understanding a problem and still making a completely different choice. This plays out in research we've done on sort of moral decision making. It plays out on financial decisions. It plays out this amazing research on why kids academically gifted. All of their academic peers are going to university. Socioeconomically, none of their peers are going to university. Well, they're going to get a full scholarship if they choose to go. So what do they choose? Well, overwhelmingly they choose to do with their socioeconomic peers do. So they, they go to a local school, why not? And for the longest time we treated this like it was a marketing problem. Oh, this kid just doesn't understand the value of university. Really? This straight a kid who is a shoo in for a full ride to Harvard doesn't understand the value of Harvard? That seems pretty implausible to me. In fact it is. We can do the research and show they fully understand it intellectually. So what's the single biggest predictor that a student will accept that scholarship and go? It's not any of the things perhaps you might expect. It effectively is only one thing. Someone from their neighborhood went before them. They have the lived experience of that hard work paying off. In telling a story, you are essentially short circuiting that. You're trying to create that sense of a lived experience. You're trying to get beyond the intellectual processing capacity. And we all wish we were perfectly rational, but we're not. And your donors and funding agencies, oh my goodness, they are provably not. And we're trying to create this sense of a lived experience so that they understand the value that you're talking about. And that's why I was joking earlier. Print the legend. If there's a conflict between the legend and the truth, print the legend. But what matters isn't that you can run through the numbers, although of course that should be there. It's that you created in them a lived sense that this donation they're going to give you is going to pay off. Not just the intellectual understanding of it, but, but that live sense. And if you have the chance to get them to interact to see the problem, of course that's amazing. But if all you have is a pitch and it's just you, you need to touch them as deeply as knowing someone you grew up with your whole life. Going off to university and having it change their lived experience, that's the depth you need to touch them at. That's what storytelling can do.
- [20:16]
Julia Campbell
Everything you're saying, I feel like I need to process, I need to take a pause, take like 10 minutes to process 100%. We need to understand sort of the systems and the stories that we tell ourselves that I think are creating some of the issues that we're working on and the reasons for our mission. So I know the human trust works on problems that are dismissed as intractable. So can you tell us more about these kind? I mean, I know a lot of nonprofits think they're working on problems that are intractable. So what have you learned in this work and you know, what are. What is your advice for people working on intractable problems?
- [20:56]
Dr. Vivian Ming
When I started my first tech startup, just coming taking a pause on academia back in 2007, and I started my first edtech company. While we were working on that, this group affiliated with the UN came to us and said, we saw a demo of what you guys are building in education and we have this other project called Refugees United where we're reuniting orphan refugees with their extended family members and we think you could help. And so we started working on this project even though it paid us nothing. You know, I ended up spending 95% of my time on this thing. And we weren't getting any funded. Let me tell nobody wanted to fund a couple of women working in educational technology in 2007 and 8. So we couldn't pay our rent, we couldn't do anything. I was putting all of my time into this philanthropic mission. But it worked. We built this system in the end where an uncle could go to a refugee camp and look at a set of photos and find his niece within three to five minutes, no matter where in the world she was. I was so proud of that. But I'm skipping over an incredibly important part of the story. About halfway through that process, I chickened out. My startup was failing. No one would fund us. We weren't getting anywhere. I just had a new baby. What am I doing spending all of my time on this philanthropic work? This is crazy. So we wrote them and said, I'm so sorry, but we're just, we have to drop out. We just can't keep doing this. And it only took about a month to realize how wildly wrong I was. How could I wouldn't I give up my startup if I knew it would save one of those kids lives? Of course I would. Just the same as I'd give it up if it would have saved my mother's life when she had her stroke. All of these things are true. Why did I worry about this crappy little ed tech company over this incredibly important system. And by the time we got back to the un, unfortunately for very complicated reasons, the project was ongoing, but the opportunity had kind of pass. So I am immensely proud of what we built. But in truth, it never really saw the light of day other than proving that it worked. We never got to rescue a kid. And it has been one of the great failures of my life. At the same time that I am so proud of that after that moment and given the work I did on my son's diabetes, I just thought I should start a philanthropic lab. And if someone comes to me with a problem. Dr. Ming, my daughter has 500 seizures a day. Please save her life. Dr. Ming, our country does everything the World bank says. Our PISA student test scores go up every year, and yet nobody hires our citizens or anything. And everything in between. If it's about human beings, I'm interested. You want to pitch me your bitcoin startup thing? I will skip the foul mouth tirade, but I'm not interested. I can geek out about self driving cars, but I want to build better people, not better cars. So this became a vehicle for me to not only just build companies, which I think is the right vehicle occasionally, but for me to just take projects that I truly believe should happen. And here's interesting. You said you work on projects. Just by virtue of the fact they're coming to me means nothing else worked. No one goes to the mad scientist first. No one goes. I have a couple of very fancy degrees in neuroscience and psychology and computational neuroscience, but an MD isn't one of them. But that girl with epilepsy, none of the treatments were working. And next up was surgery. Brain surgery. Invasive in some really scary places. There was a kid who had persistent. Couldn't fall asleep, couldn't enter REM sleep. Wow. Which should have killed them, but doesn't. And it turns out there's like five people in the world. It's like an actual episode of House. Again, not just these medical ones, but Dr. Ming, our company. We know we have bias in our promotion process, but our board tells us we have to prove it before they'll change anything. Help us build an economic model that shows the cost. It's not like we promote bad people. We just believe we could be promoting better people if we used a different process. If I think my team and I can have something unique to add something truly different than anyone else could bring, then I pay for everything. And then whatever we invent, we just give away. So it's the worst Startup idea of all time. Infinite demand. Zero, actually. Negative revenue.
- [25:43]
Julia Campbell
Infinite demand to negative revenue. But it's. That sounds kind of like a nonprofit.
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Dr. Vivian Ming
Yes, but the nice thing here is because of the good fortune of my life, I can just fund it myself. And that's limiting. It means there's only so much I can do at any given time. But it's also incredibly empowering. Yes, I choose projects.
- [26:07]
Julia Campbell
You choose the ones that light you up. The ones you know you can make a difference.
- [26:10]
Dr. Vivian Ming
Exactly. What am I willing to pay for out of my own pocket to make it happen? Because I believe it is so important. Valued against. But could someone else be doing this? There are a million geniuses and trillion dollars working on cancer research. Do I truly have anything of value there? As opposed to some of the projects I just mentioned? And as it turns out, and you referred to epigenetics earlier, just recently found exactly such a problem involving breast cancer and epigenetics. And so we're going to launch a project specifically in predicting breast cancer risk before it happens, based on epigenetics. But again, when I say that these problems are intractable, what I really mean is if a problem has come to me, it's because it only reaches someone like me, because nothing else worked. And therefore my starting assumption on any problem I work on is we must not understand this problem. If we truly understood racism and its underpinnings, if we really knew the solutions to working through it, the world would be a wildly different place than it is if we truly understood epilepsy. If you thought that all we needed was to teach kids how to routinely perform math operations, and that's all an education requires, and that's human capital in the modern world, then education is a solved problem. But it turns out none of those three completely distinctly seeming problems are actually, I think, sufficiently understood. And it led to projects in understanding, for example, the neuroscience of Trust in this new book, the how to Robot Proof youf Kids it less us to look at. What about human capacity is truly valuable, truly predicts positive life outcomes, and it turns out, not your ability to answer a bunch of routine academic questions, it simply doesn't. It's other things that are much more important. Once we're able to crack a problem open and say, what have we misunderstood? Then now suddenly we have a different look into it. So sorry that that's an incredibly complicated answer to what should have been a sort of simple question, but this is how I kind of walked backwards into it. And we just started as this lab and I just sort of solve a single problem and let it go. And then recently I thought, what if we could build things and they could just remain available to anyone at any time afterwards. And so instead of just my personal lab, we launched the Human Trust Boy, describing what a data trust is. And a biobank would get out of hand very quickly. But essentially it's an opportunity for a mad scientist to bring a lot of very fancy AI to bear on fundamental issues of human development while not stealing everyone's data for the purpose. So I'm immensely proud of it. But it's early days for trying to scale my, my philanthropic lab into like a whole set of free things for good people.
- [29:26]
Julia Campbell
Well, let's talk about how to robot proof your kids. So this is your book, it's coming out soon. And tell me about the premise and what can we learn from this book. I have two kids, 15 years old and 10. So very interested.
- [29:43]
Dr. Vivian Ming
Yeah, my son is 17, my daughter's 13. I think this is on the mind of everyone. It has been for a long time. Yes. Frankly, despite the robot in the title, this is fundamentally a book about people. It's just AI and particularly the most modern versions of it, large language models. It's like a forcing function. These things have been true about what predicts amazing life outcomes for probably all of human history. But now the other things that we could rely on, hey, just, you know, get a degree so you can read a spreadsheet and answer questions and you'll have a great life. Well, no, that doesn't hold true anymore. The fundamental thesis here is AI knows everything but understands nothing. It is that in this world there are all of these problems and some of them are really well posed problems. They have right and wrong answers. And we built a whole education system and a workforce around your ability to, to answer increasingly esoteric and difficult, well posed problems. Read this contract and let me know if there are any legal flaws. Diagnose cancer off of this X ray. Write some code for me. Well, now we live in a world where there is an intelligence that is vastly better at us than at answering all of those questions. And that's terrifying. It seems like what we built our whole lives and economies on is gone. Except it isn't. Because what's left are what I'm going to call ill posed questions. These are problems. Forget right and wrong answers. They don't even have good questions formulated for them. It's our ability to explore the unknown. And if there's a silver lining to this story, and I think it's an amazing One, the space of things. We already know that we are training into AIs and yeah, they're going to start consuming a lot of jobs that used to be amazing jobs for people to have. But that space is finite, it's massive. But there's only so much we've learned about the universe. Yes, the space of the unknown is literally infinite. It's everything. But now that's our job. You want to robot proof your kid? Build them for the unknown. If you could bear with my use of the term build. And when we look at the kinds of things that predict amazing life outcomes in kids, it's not their ability to code or that they went to Harvard, it's that they're resilient, is that they have a big working memory span, that they have great analogical reasoning skills or perspective taking or self assessment abilities. And these are the things AIs can't do. And they are the unique capacity for a variety of reasons of human beings, at least for the foreseeable future. So I guess the way I would summarize it all is this economy based on routine work, however sophisticated, is going to slowly go away. But what's left is our ability to do creative labor. Whether it's science or storytelling or true art or any of it. Re envision every job as creative labor and think to myself, am I prepared to do that job? Am I prepared to explore the unknown? Are my kids prepared to explore the unknown? And so the book is about this fundamental tension, but I hope this amazing story that the solution how the answer to the question which interesting I was asked by the US Department of Defense, Department of Education a couple of decades ago.
- [33:33]
Julia Campbell
Dr. B.
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Dr. Vivian Ming
Our kids. Yes, strangely enough, how do we robot proof our kids? The answer is make them all the more human. Don't compete with machines by doubling down on things machines are better at. Lean in to making an amazing human being. And in fact, where we started our conversation that I want to build cyborgs. I mean, yeah, if you think that cyborg means like Borg from Star Trek or you know, Cylons or all these terrible examples, but what if instead we rethought AI and cybernetics as a way to actually make us more human, to make us more individual and unique. And here's my final little pitch. The solution in a world where all of the world's answers, at least to well posed questions are free in your pocket and they really essentially are, it is how you would solve that problem uniquely. Your unique voice, that is your true value to the world. And that would be so easy to treat that like a Hallmark card. I mean it. As a nerdy, hard numbers neuroscientist. It is what makes you unique, that makes you valuable. And you need your children to be the most unique and valuable version of themselves and then have the courage to share that unique self with the world. So that's the story behind the book.
- [35:14]
Julia Campbell
I want to hear that keynote speech. So we need to know when you're. We need to know where you're speaking next. Do you have a podcast yourself? Where can we find you? Where can we learn more about your thinking? I know we can buy your books. Like, where can we connect with you?
- [35:28]
Dr. Vivian Ming
I am far too distractible and lazy a person to actually put out a regular podcast if you want to inflict more of me on yourself. Truly a foolish decision, but I do share research online and the easiest place to visit would be to go to socos.org s o c o s this is my back in the day, my original philanthropic lab. You'll learn a little bit about the books that are coming up. You can sign up for the newsletter, which is entirely free, or if you are truly delusional, then you can actually subscribe and pay for a free newsletter. In exchange, I'll give you a copy of the book once it's published later this year.
- [36:14]
Julia Campbell
Amazing. Oh, my gosh. So. S o c o s.org I will put all of the links in the show notes so everyone can connect with you. This has just been absolutely fabulous, inspiring, illuminating, and wonderful. I just knew you wouldn't disappoint. So thank you so much for being here.
- [36:34]
Dr. Vivian Ming
Thanks so much for the invitation. I love talking with you and having the chance to share this work. If there's an opportunity to tell your story and you're not taking it, then you've missed the opportunity to explain yourself to yourself. What a. What a tragedy.
- [36:55]
Julia Campbell
Thank you so much. All right, Dr. Vivian Ming. S o c o ssocos.org and I will put all the links in the show notes. Thanks everyone for listening and thanks, Dr. Ming, for being here today.
- [37:12]
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.