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- [00:01]
A
This episode is sponsored by my friends at Bloomerang. You already know your donors care. You see it in every gift and every note that comes back with a check. What you might not know is what they're telling us right now in the data. Bloomerang's 2026 Giving Signal report surveyed more than 1,000 active donors. 91% said say people need more help than ever, and 94% give more when they know exactly where their gift goes. The generosity is there. What's changed isn't the impulse to give. It's what donors need from you to say yes. The question is whether your organization is listening. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose, to help you understand your donors, to help you act on the right signals, and most importantly, to help you raise more. Download the free 2026 Giving Signal report@bloomerang.com that's B L O O M E r a n g.com and now on to the episode. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, this is Nonprofit Nation with your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk about storytelling and clarity and something that we often overlook in nonprofit marketing. We know that we're doing meaningful, impactful work, but we struggle to communicate it in a way that resonates with donors. And my guest today is Ian Stewart, founder and CEO of Whole Brand Agency and a Story Brand Certified guide, which I know a lot of my listeners are probably really familiar with. Story Brand and also the host of the Whole Brand podcast. And Ian helps organizations clarify their messaging, build trust, and create marketing that helps to keep brands top of mind. So, Ian, I'm so glad you're on the podcast. Welcome.
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B
Thank you, Julie. Thanks for having me.
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A
So tell us about the work that you do at brands and organizations and sort of how you came into this work.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. We. We work with a wide scale of brands, from nonprofits to for profits, but our goal is really how do we help people align around clear Messaging and telling a story that engages their customers more than just brags about themselves. And then how do we take that story and turn it into actionable sales, marketing, fundraising strategies? And from there we also have an agency arm that creates content and does elements like that. But the goal is really providing clarity to our clients so that they are then speaking to their audience in a way that engages them correctly.
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A
How did you get involved with storybrand? I know it's pretty famous. I've read the books and I was, I listened to the podcast and it's an incredible framework. But how did you become a certified story brand guide?
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B
Yeah, well, about eight years ago, I read the book and thought to myself, there's something here. Applied it to my own company, doubled my revenue in six months just using those principles. And then heard about the certification program. And so now I've been certified by them for seven years. And it has become kind of the foundation of how we serve people. It's, it's kind of a requirement to work with us is if we're not going to do this message messaging work, we can't guarantee results on the other side. And we know how effective it is. And, and so we've continued just to hone that in and, and, and allow our clients to, to benefit from that framework and process.
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A
I'm gonna have to reread it. So you doubled your revenue. That's amazing. I do know that people get really incredible results from, you know, kind of following the framework. So for nonprofits, you know, I serve them and I see this all the time. They're doing incredible work and they're simply saying, okay, we're doing great work. But they struggle to explain it simply, especially complex issues. So what does it look like to communicate social issues in a way that's clear and compelling? Like, what can we be doing differently?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times with nonprofits, what they end up communicating is the more tactical side of the work they do.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, we're, we're creating hygiene kits for the homeless or whatever it is. And, and they talk about those specific elements. When it comes down to it, what a non profit is actually doing is providing that next layer for the people that they're impacting. So you're not providing a hygiene kit for homeless person, you're providing dignity for, for that person. And they have a hard time explaining what's the thing beneath the thing. A lot of times that actually make donors care about why they're donating. You know, they can go out and buy food or buy you know, products or whatever to help the homeless or to help whatever group of people. But what they don't often understand is the real reason we're doing this is not just to provide this element. It's to give hope on the other side. And so being able to tell a story that is centered around the impact that you make more than the individual things that you do becomes more engaging for a donor and kind of intrigues them more.
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A
Exactly where do you think nonprofits get it really wrong in terms of confusing their donors?
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B
Yeah, I think it's. It's kind of a twofold thing. Nonprofits a lot of times have an issue with trust. You know, especially today. We live in a very trust efficient society. And so the idea of giving money to something and not knowing really how it's spent or really what it's going towards is the first thing nonprofits kind of drop the ball on. They talk about, hey, we need dollars so that we can do this great work. But they don't tie those dollars to specific initiatives and specific things of, you know, let's say it's the foster care system. We want to help X amount of kids get into new homes. We need this amount per kid in order to give them a life that is beyond what they've had before. And so they have a hard dollars to specific results and really giving that trust. The other piece is they spend a lot of time really talking more, like I said before, about a specific tactic and not enough time talking about why that matters to their donor and what the impact it makes on their community, their lives, all of those elements as they go through their communication efforts.
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A
Right. I see that all the time. When I do my social media audits and my digital marketing audits, a lot of the social media is here's like, what we're doing, but not talking about, you know, food insecurity or homelessness or mental health overall. Like, how does it all tie together? How is it affecting the community? What are the statistics? I need to know. And it's more like they lose the why this, why now kind of thing. It's, you know, we're doing great work. We know we're doing great work. But understanding that their donors want to know why this and why now and why I should be not even just supporting, but paying attention right now.
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B
Absolutely. That's one of the things that we've done some work with America's Kids Belong, which is a foster care nonprofit. And their biggest thing that they talk about is that what they're doing is actually upstream Work kids who are in the foster care are more likely to be homeless, more likely.
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A
It's not emergency services. It's like it's upstream. Yep.
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B
Yeah. And, and in the moment, it is absolutely getting a forever home for a kid who's in the system. You know, that is the, the immediate urgent need. But the real thing is when that kid is found in that home and they have a supportive home and a supportive community, they're less likely to be incarcerated, less likely to, you know, be addicted. All of those elements that actually make our communities better, not even just the lives of that one individual, but when we have less people who are struggling with all of these issues, it raises, you know, raises the tide, Lifts. Lifts the boat for all people.
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A
Exactly. Well, so that's a great example. So to me, that is a really hard thing to convey in like a Tweet or a 60 second short form video, 30 second video. So if you have an, if you have a cause like that or a mission where you are doing upstream work or you're trying to create systemic change, it's not, you know, we feed like 20, we provide 20 backpacks to kids. Like that's something easy. People understand that. Or the Red Cross, we're doing emergency work for people that were in a fire. That's very easy to visualize. So how does this, you know, how can we get clarity around maybe a cause like foster care that people first of all probably don't understand, but. But also the upstream work that you're do, that they're doing.
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B
Yeah, and it's, you know, it's kind of the classic way we look at, you know, the storybrain framework has seven elements in it. Kind of the distilled version of that is really three elements. It's really, you know, problem solution resolution. And you can come up with a statement of problem solution resolution that's read in 10 seconds. But it's thinking through what is the actual root cause problem we are trying to fix and solve for our, you know, specific benefactors. What is the unique solution we provide to help that problem get solved? And then what's that resolution on the other side? What does that beautiful future look like, that if someone donates their time, their money, they know that they're impacting something larger than just backpacks for kids or, you know, a hot meal or something like that?
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A
Exactly. Okay. The vision and the future. I love that. So for those unfamiliar, can you talk about the story brand framework, dive into maybe your favorite pieces of it?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. The beauty of the storybrain framework is it acts as a filter. And so when you think about stories, whether it's. You're watching a movie, you're reading a book, you know, kind of any story that's existed, there are really seven main elements that that story has to have to keep your brain engaged. Statistics show that the human brain actually spends about 30% of its time daydreaming. But the only time it can't daydream is when it is engaged in a story because it's living into that next piece that it wants to know in order to survive and thrive in our lives. And so the framework looks like. Like they all walk through all seven elements here is that we have your character. In most cases in the nonprofits, your character is your donor. Actually, we're talking to them. We're speaking to them. We're setting the donor up as the hero in that story. There's obviously sub messaging where we would set up the benefactors, the people we're serving as the hero as well. But either way, we have the hero. We have our character, the story. And they have a desire, but that desire can't. Can't come to fruition unless they overcome a problem. And that's the next piece of the story, is that they encounter a problem. They have an external problem, an internal problem, and then we talk about a philosophical problem as well. Once they have that problem, they're in every story, they're introduced to a character called the guide. This is, you know, the Yoda or Obi Wan Kenobi to your Luke Skywalker
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A
kind, or hey, Mitch and Hunger Games. That's the. That's the podcast episode that I heard talking about the. Yeah, the Guide.
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B
Okay, yeah, the guide. And the guide has two things. They have the empathy for their hero's problem, and then they have the authority to actually help them win the day. And so once the guide character is introduced, the guide, usually, because they have the experience, they know what the hero needs, they give them a plan to move forward, and then they call them to action. Something has to happen in a story to. To kind of make the hero jump into action. And so it's no different in our marketing and our messaging is we have to be very clear in our calls to action. Once they're called to action, at this point, you now have a story that either ends in success or failure. And so in the story brand framework, failure, we talk about the idea of what is at stake if we don't win, if someone doesn't donate, if someone doesn't volunteer. What's at stake. What possibly could happen if they're not willing to engage with our cause in this way? And then the other side is then the success piece. It's painting that beautiful future. What can we promise, what can we say is going to happen in if they engage with our nonprofit, our business, any, you know, whatever your particular context is in there. And that's the framework overall. And if you, if you look at this framework really in depth, it starts to kind of ruin movies for you because you can just see the process that goes through as you, as you dig into it. But the beauty of this framework is that storybrand has tested this with for profit nonprofit, solopreneur, multibillion dollar businesses. And the only thing we found is that it doesn't work if you don't do it. And so.
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A
Okay, so how in practice can we use this? I mean, this is something that we need to be constantly probably iterating and thinking about. But how can non profits use this framework maybe in their next fundraising appeal?
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B
Yeah. The beauty part about fundraising is that there's always a very specific call to action. You know, there's two, two main issues in call to actions that people have is either one, they don't use one and they're just really soft and like, we hope you support us instead of saying donate today.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. And the other, get involved. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what that, whatever the specific sounds tiring to figure out what that means. I need a direct call to action. I agree.
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B
Yeah. You know, the, the classic example we give is, is people use learn more as a call to action all the time.
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A
And if no one wants to learn more, who is no one wants to learn more.
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B
If you're, if you're at a cocktail party and someone walks up to you and says learn more, you're probably not going to go on a date with them. You know, that's the learn more.
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A
Here's a brochure about me.
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B
But so we have to have a very specific call to action. The other issue people make in their campaigns and fundraising and really across the board is that they use too many different calls to action. They don't give you a very clear, this is the one thing I want you to do above everything else because they think they need to go, well, we do this and we need you to do this, and we need you to do this. But campaigns that really see the highest level success are the ones that are targeted into one single ask that really is going to move the needle in the most impactful way. And so that's the first piece I would say, for nonprofits. Using it in. In fundraising is make sure you have very clear, very concise, very straightforward calls to action. And the beauty of nonprofits is a lot of times too, you can say things like, we need $10,000 to buy this piece of machinery that's going to help us do this thing out in this community, or whatever it is. And you can be as specific as this is exactly what your money's going to go to, which will help draw people to that next phase. The other piece that I think overall that we want to do is kind of like what we've talked about is really talk through that. How are we showing what the future can look like if they've engaged with this? It's not just we're giving because it feels good, but we're giving because we're making real impact that has multiple outcomes for us on the other end. And really thinking through the bigger picture of, you know, kind of, I feel like I'm sort of harping on this same concept of what is that bigger picture more than just we get to donate this many things, we get to do this many programs. It's because of this work. This is the type of impact we make in our communities and in our world, in the lives of these people down the road. What does it look like a legacy side of things? And I think there's a piece in nonprofits where we. We tend to not talk about the legacy our donors are leaving, when the truth is that giving is a major portion of every legacy that's out there. You know, generosity is what legacy is built around. No one goes to a funeral and go, yeah, that guy never gave me the time of day and would never answer my calls. You know, they get up and they say, this person was generous with their time, with their talents, with all of elements. And that's what one of the things that nonprofits facilitate. And it's okay to talk about that and okay to engage with a donor around what's that legacy that they're trying to leave?
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A
I think that's incredibly. That's incredibly important. The. So the story brand framework is different from storytelling. And that's where I think some of my listeners. Or that's where I know originally I sort of got confused because I teach storytelling, but I teach impact storytelling or behind the scenes storytelling, storytelling of the nonprofit. But in the story brand framework, the character is sort of the person that you're trying to reach, right? The person that you're trying to activate they are the character of the story and then the organization is the guide.
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B
Exactly. Yeah. So in the case of a donor, your donor is the hero of the story. They're the one the entire story is centered around. So really the story you are telling at this point is, hey, you're an amazing person who wants these amazing things. Here's how we help you get those things that you want. And a lot of the kind of impact based storytelling that you help organizations with, those fit into the framework as one of the elements. And so when you look at the seven elements, each one of those seven elements becomes a piece of your strategy. So when you think about setting a nonprofit up as the guide, the empathy piece, are those heartfelt stories of we saw this happening, this is the injustice in the world. We understand the deep impact and the deep hurt that's happening. The authority piece is then the other side of talking to that specific person you served, getting that kind of testimonial video of, hey, this is, this actually worked. And here's a story of the impact on the other side there. And so you, you use the seven elements in the framework as a way to break out. These are the seven types of content, seven types of communication ele that we need in order to have a successful campaign. You know, and it may just be in any one social media post, we're just talking about problems this time. In another social media post, we're going to talk about the plan. What are the three steps someone can take to move forward, and then we're going to give some authority of, of this is the work we've done, this is the people that we've helped, this is how it's turned out. And then, you know, we're going to call into action, give a straight, you know, sales pitch, essentially, and total side note, but I think that's one of the things nonprofits miss as well, is that fundraising is sales and it's okay to ask for the money and, and move.
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A
Inviting the donor to make a difference.
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B
Exactly.
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A
I talked to Mark Pittman on the podcast and he said, you know, who are we to say that our donors don't want to give? You know, who are we to completely make that assumption and assume that they don't want to give and not send that email and not send that appeal. And giving is an opportunity for them to express themselves and like you said, build their legacy or share, you know, feel, feel like they've made a difference. And I know that especially in Covid or in these current times or, you know, the headlines can be very discouraging. But making a donation to a cause that you care about can really help you feel like you have some agency. So with this storybrand framework, how do you see it working in a digital environment? Like, can it work in a 30 second video or like a little TikTok video Instagram reel?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And that's the, you know, that problem solution resolution framework is the easiest way to go about that. One of the things we do when we build out what's called the brand script, which is this, these seven elements in one, you know, kind of cohesive PDF. Out of that, we create the one liner. And the way you look at the one liner is like, you know, we've all been to events where someone gives their elevator pitch and it takes 30 seconds to a minute and we're all bored out of our minds by the end of it. And we look at the one liner as the way of, hey, this takes about 10 to 15 seconds to say. And what we've done is we've given you enough information to go, I understand what you do, I understand how you make lives better, and I understand how I can do business with you and, or how I can donate to you. And in, in that, I mean, you can make several versions if you have specific campaigns. You know, the biggest thing with messaging is messaging is targeted. And so every nonprofit has to have kind of their umbrella message. The, the main message talks about the whole mission of the organization, everything that they're doing. And then they're going to have specific messages that feed from that that are for. These are a program we do, this is a service we provide. This is, you know, whatever the various kind of subcategories are. And then you can take that one step farther of, okay, we're doing fundraising around a specific, you know, need right now. And so now we're going to take that messaging one step farther and we're going to give that same one liner, those same elements, but for that specific need at that time. And so, you know, we always say words are free, so if the words aren't working, change them and make sure that people are actually listening. And that's the beauty of this, is now you have a filter and you have words to start when there's a blank page in front of you. And then you can always tweak and continue to refine as time goes on.
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A
Oh, I really love that. How do you test whether this messaging is working?
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B
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is. Obviously you just have to start using it. One of the Biggest things I think a lot of nonprofits run into is the speed to action is really slow. We're worried we have to have this right, otherwise it's not going to work and we're not going to get the dollars we want. But the truth is, the more time you spend not launching it, the less likely you are to actually accomplish your goal at that point. And so a lot of it is if you feel like it's in right place, show it to a couple people and then put it up. You're gonna, the market is gonna tell you whether the words you're using are actually connecting. You know, I remember when I first started my business, I went through several different iterations of my one liner of my story brand stuff to figure out what it is that I'm uniquely doing. And I remember the first time I was standing in an event and someone said, what do you do? And I gave my one liner and their eyes lit up and I went, oh, okay. So that's the one I'm going to use from now on.
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A
Oh, okay.
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B
And so it's that, you know, there's nothing better.
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A
Yeah, there's nothing better than seeing that.
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B
Exactly. And you know, the other piece is it's always hard to read the label from inside the box. And so getting an outside set of eyes to come in and whether that's a story brand guide like myself or just asking other people in the nonprofit space, I tend to always say, ask someone outside your industry because if you've made it easily understandable for them, then it's going to communicate to everyone if you, if someone in your industry gets it. But then someone in the outside your industry goes, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Then we're not clear enough at that point.
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A
No, that makes complete sense to me. And I think that testing it outside your industry, like you said, is kind of imperative. You know, people that have no idea what you do because that's, we assume that our donors know a lot more about us than they probably do. We assume they have a lot more information. And oftentimes, you know, they're, they are vaguely aware. They're usually aware of the problem or the cause. But having that one liner testing it out, that's a really good piece of advice. Well, so maybe that answers the next question. What is sort of one simple exercise that nonprofits could use maybe this week to clarify their story?
- [24:49]
B
Yeah, I would, I would start with that one liner piece. I would start with how do we, how do we distill this down into the simplest form possible. Donald Miller, who wrote Story Wren, talks a lot about in the one liner, how commas are not your friend. If you feel like you need to add a comma, you're probably adding a piece of information you don't need to give them. At that point, you know, we want to say it so simply that they go, I understand what you do. And they might have an additional question they need to ask. But now they're equipped for that question. And so the one liner is a, is a great piece to, to look at it. I think the other easy element is open up your website. If there is not a clear, bright colored call to action of some kind, you're just leaving money on the table already. And so that's the two things I would tell everyone to start with is make sure our call to action is clear, it's visible, it's easily access. And then start working through really what's the problem we're trying to solve? How do we uniquely solve it and what does the future look like once that problem has been solved for those people.
- [25:49]
A
I know I struggle with my one liner when people ask me what I do because it's like, what do you do? But when you tell them what you do, it can sound boring or it can sound generic. So I think we need to, so I need to frame it in like why I do it and what the problem is that I'm solving.
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B
Absolutely. Like what I would say if someone from a nonprofit.
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A
What's the whole brand agency one liner.
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B
Yeah, well, I know I'll give a non profit specific one.
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A
Okay.
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B
And so someone comes, you know, if I'm at an event, I meet someone from a non profit. What I would say is, you know, a lot of times non profits really struggle to communicate clearly the impact they're trying to make. Well, we use the story brand framework to help people clarify their message and build a communication strategy that allows them to engage their donors. And at that point, you know exactly what I'm doing. You may have another question of like, okay, what does that look like? But you're at least willing to have the conversation with me.
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A
That's the result of what you.
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B
Yeah, exactly. And so, and it's that simple. I mean that's as, as quick as we, we want to be able to communicate what we're doing. The beauty is once you go through the whole story brand framework, you build out that brand script, you now have all the words that want your employees to use, you want your clients to use, you want your donors to use. And so if you stick to that framework, you stick to those words repeatedly, you're going to end up getting everyone on board using the exact same language. When everyone's united under the same language, your impact is going to grow exponentially because there's no confusion anymore about, you know, you go to almost any non profit and say what do you guys do? And you're going to get four different answers from four different people.
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A
People.
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B
And so everyone's aligned on those same words. This is the exact impact we're trying to make. This is exactly what we're trying to do. You're going to be able to engage the donors, engage the clients, engage every element along the way more efficiently.
- [27:42]
A
That's a great example. I always teach, I teach the six word story. There's a six word story exercise that I teach board members and staff members because it's interesting to see if they can say what the organization does and the impact in six words. But the character in this story is usually a client. So it's Julia found Julia was sleeping under a bridge or something like that. And that's a story in and of itself. You want piques, your curiosity, you want to learn more. But it's that succinctness that I do think that profits really struggle with not having 20 paragraphs to explain, you know, every single thing that they do. And to really understand the digital environment especially, but understand that donors really, you know, if they're not on board with why you do something, they're not going to be on board with how you do it or what you do. So getting them on board with the why first. I'm sure you're a fan of start with why. Simon Sinek, yeah, he's incredible. I talk about that all the time.
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B
And that's one of those things too that, you know, every kind of organization, nonprofit or otherwise, has to think through their communications in, in a three part phase. All of this initial work that we're talking about, the messaging, the one liners, this type of stuff is in the curiosity phase. This is the what is it that you guys even do? And just, just to pique somebody's interest, that's the whole goal. Then you can get into the enlightenment phase. The enlightenment phase is where you get deeper into the here's your white papers on impact, here is all of your different elements, here's your testimonial stories, here is your keynote presentations. Like all of that stuff is, once somebody's curious, you're now able to equip them with all the Additional information that they would want to be able to make a decision. And then you have your commitment material. This is all your calls to action, your specific campaigns, those elements from there. And too many times people jump into the enlightenment piece before the curiosity piece. They bombard everyone with all of this information and we haven't given a clear reason why that information even matters at all.
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A
That is a fantastic way to think about marketing, communications, curiosity, enlightenment and commitment. Because marketing and fundraising and communication should all be working together in that cycle to complement each other and to build on the work of that previous step. That is fantastic. I love that I'm going to think about that in my work too. So what is one belief, one long standing belief about maybe nonprofit marketing or fundraising that you think needs to change?
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B
Oh, man. I think one of the things I said before about not being afraid to ask for the donation, not feeling like you're being salesy. You know, the number of times that we'll redo a website for someone and they go, well, you know, you've put our call to action as donate now. And it's like eight times on the homepage. Isn't that being too pushy? And what I always say is, well, you know, when you go to Amazon.com, there are a thousand buy now buttons and never once have you said they're
- [31:09]
A
really Amazon's too pushy. Yeah, right.
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B
And so if you believe in the work that you're doing, there should be never an issue with asking for the dollar or asking for the volunteer or. Because the truth is that we know that that person is going to receive a return on that money, a return on that time investment in ways that are going to be for years to come. And just beyond that moment that they've chosen to engage in that way too.
- [31:36]
A
Oh, that's the mindset shift. I want to, I want to shift the being too pushy. We're annoying our donors, we're being too aggressive by having a red donate button on our website. And I'm thinking this is what's sustaining your work. And if a donor goes to your website and wants to give, they don't want to click around to 90 different pages. They want to go right to the credit card form. I see the credit card form on all the big ones like Charity Water, American Red Cross, American Cancer Society, they have the credit card form like right on their homepage. Yeah, not even a donate button. It's like a pop up that just is like. And I think that's, you know, I'm not sure Why I would go to a website other than if I was seeking services, that's one thing. But I would. If I'm a donor, I'm going to the website to give or to figure out, you know, how to give. So stripping away all of this friction is going to help increase the conversions as well. But putting this framework on your website, helping people really understand the problem, the solution, the impact, the resolution is super important as well, because I do think we talk a lot about what we do, what we do, what we do, but not the problem and the solution and the resolution. So those are important elements to incorporate. Well, where can people find you, learn more about you and the Whole Brand Agency?
- [33:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I'm a. I'm a big LinkedIn user, and so you can find me as just. I think it's Ian Stewart, 12 is my, my LinkedIn handle there. Otherwise, Whole Brand Agency is our website and we actually have put together a specific Story brand nonprofit playbook on the website there. So if you go to whole brand agency, SBNonProfit, you can download the playbook for free on there and start working on applying those elements. And if anyone would love to work on applying the framework, I always tell people, you can read the book, you can apply it. There's a lot of stuff in the storybrain book that it just gives you the answers and it gives you the things you need. But if you want to do it quickly and make sure that everything's applied correctly, be happy to sit down and chat with folks who are looking for that. But yeah, wholebrand Agency. SB Nonprofit. Storybrand Nonprofit. I would love to connect with anyone.
- [33:58]
A
Awesome. Thank you so much, Ian, for being here today. I learned a lot, and I've got to think a lot, and I've got to reread storybrand because I do own it and see how I can, you know, better adapt and apply the principles to the work that I do. But I'll put that playbook in the show notes. So thank you for sharing, but yeah, it's just been a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for being on the show.
- [34:20]
B
Yeah, thank you for your time and thank you for the work you're doing to help nonprofits really make a better world for all of us.
- [34:31]
A
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Julia Campbell, 77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.