Stop Raising Awareness with Kathleen Tonini

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Episode Title: Stop Raising Awareness with Kathleen Tonini
Release Date: August 13, 2025

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of Nonprofit Nation, host Julia Campbell engages in a compelling conversation with communication specialist Kathleen Tonini. The discussion delves into the often-overlooked aspects of nonprofit communications, emphasizing the distinction between mere noise and a strategic communication plan that drives real action.

---

Guest Introduction

Kathleen Tonini joins Julia from Melbourne, Australia, bringing a wealth of experience in strategic communications for nonprofits. Kathleen's journey into the nonprofit sector was driven by her passion for social change and effective communication. With a background in journalism, government communications, and policy, she now focuses on helping value-driven organizations clarify their messaging to inspire meaningful action.

“I've always been really drawn to issues and social change... trying to communicate ideas that can make a difference.”
— Kathleen Tonini [03:01]

---

The Problem: Noise vs. Strategy in Nonprofit Communication

Kathleen challenges a common pitfall in the nonprofit sector: equating high visibility with effective communication. She argues that many nonprofits fall into the trap of producing abundant content that does not translate into actionable outcomes.

“I'm interviewing communication specialist Kathleen Tonini to challenge one of the sector's most common traps, mistaking noise for communication strategy.”
— Julia Campbell [01:56]

---

Messaging Clarity: Components and Importance

Kathleen defines messaging clarity as understanding precisely who you are communicating with and what action you want them to take. This clarity ensures that communications are purpose-driven rather than just filling space.

“It's about knowing exactly who you're speaking to and what you want them to do.”
— Kathleen Tonini [06:27]

She further elaborates that clear messaging involves:

• Identifying the target audience: Understanding who cares most and how they prefer to receive information.
• Defining the desired action: Being specific about what you want your audience to do with the information provided.

---

Awareness vs. Action-Oriented Communication

Kathleen strongly asserts that raising awareness alone is insufficient as a communication strategy. She highlights two main issues:

1. Measurement Challenges: Awareness is difficult to quantify without extensive resources.
2. Lack of Behavioral Change: Awareness does not inherently lead to action.

“Raising awareness is not a real strategy... you can't measure it and it doesn't change behavior.”
— Kathleen Tonini [07:19]

She cites the infamous Australian campaign “Dumb Ways to Die” as an example where viral success did not necessarily translate into the desired behavioral changes.

---

Examples of Effective vs. Ineffective Campaigns

Kathleen contrasts ineffective campaigns that focus solely on awareness with successful ones that drive specific actions. She references the “Target155” water-saving campaign in Melbourne as a model of effective communication intertwined with policy and practical tools.

Ineffective Example:

• Dumb Ways to Die: While highly viral, its impact on behavior change was ambiguous.

Effective Example:

• Target155: Combined clear communication with actionable steps and policy measures, leading to measurable water conservation.

“It was about being very clear about the behavior and creating a whole environment where that behavior is almost inevitable.”
— Kathleen Tonini [13:27]

---

The G.A.M.E Framework: Goal, Audience, Message, Engage

Kathleen introduces her G.A.M.E framework, a tactical approach to structuring effective communication strategies for nonprofits:

1. Goal: Define the specific action you want to achieve.

   “G stands for Goal... being as specific as possible and linking it to the individual action you want people to take.”

— Kathleen Tonini [18:50]

2. Audience: Identify and understand your target stakeholders.

   “A is for Audience... who cares the most and how they like to receive information.”

— Kathleen Tonini [19:30]

3. Message: Craft a message that resonates with your audience and includes a clear call to action.

   “M is for Message... ensuring that you pick up some of those things that they care about.”

— Kathleen Tonini [20:10]

4. Engage: Choose the appropriate tools and channels to disseminate your message.

   “E is for Engage... are you really understanding what action you're trying to drive.”

— Kathleen Tonini [21:16]

---

Practical Steps for Improving Communication

Kathleen offers pragmatic advice for nonprofits looking to enhance their communication strategies without overhauling existing systems:

• Assess Current Effectiveness: Identify what is working by evaluating engagement across different channels.

  “Look across what you're putting out and see where you're getting the most engagement.”

— Kathleen Tonini [23:52]

• Focus Resources: Concentrate on channels and strategies that yield the best results instead of spreading thin across multiple platforms.

  “Pick the few that are working the best and really concentrate on them.”

— Kathleen Tonini [24:30]

• Tie Communications to Goals: Ensure that every communication effort is linked to a specific, measurable outcome.

  “Unless you have unlimited money, I think you should be able to tie your advertising to some kind of result.”

— Kathleen Tonini [24:33]

• Leverage Existing Tools: Utilize current channels effectively before seeking new platforms.

  “A lot of people skip over using the tools they already have.”

— Kathleen Tonini [21:54]

---

Overcoming Internal Organizational Challenges

Kathleen addresses the common internal resistance nonprofits face when shifting from ad-hoc communications to a strategic approach. She suggests presenting a structured communication plan that aligns with organizational goals to gain buy-in from stakeholders.

“Articulating that what that benefit would be, as opposed to communicating for the sake of it, I think that would be... what would be to do.”
— Kathleen Tonini [26:51]

Key strategies include:

• Present Clear Goals: Demonstrate how strategic communication supports the organization's mission.
• Provide Alternatives: Offer concrete solutions rather than just criticizing existing methods.
• Highlight Benefits: Emphasize the efficiency and effectiveness of a goal-oriented communication strategy.

---

Conclusion and Final Tips

Kathleen leaves listeners with actionable advice to enhance their communication strategies:

• Add Clear Calls to Action: Ensure every piece of communication includes a directive for the audience to take specific actions.

  “Is it a call to action on your post or is it a link to what you want them to do.”

— Kathleen Tonini [30:48]

• Prioritize Impact Over Volume: Focus on communications that drive meaningful results rather than maximizing visibility.

  “Something that has more impact is better than multiple things that have way less impact.”

— Kathleen Tonini [26:00]

Kathleen encourages nonprofits to adopt a strategic mindset, ensuring that every communication effort is purposeful and aligned with the organization's overarching goals.

---

Connect with Kathleen Tonini

For more insights and to connect with Kathleen, you can reach her via:

• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Website (details provided in the show notes)

---

Final Thoughts

Julia Campbell wraps up the episode by urging listeners to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast to aid in expanding its reach and impact. She emphasizes the importance of strategic communication in building vibrant, action-driven communities around nonprofit causes.

“Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.”
— Bloomerang [33:54]

---

Subscribe to Nonprofit Nation on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast platform to stay updated with future episodes that empower nonprofits to thrive.

Transcript

[Bloomerang]

You pour your heart into every single fundraising appeal. You juggle a dozen different tools trying to piece together a clear picture of your supporters. But what if your fundraising platform was built with a deep understanding of those challenges? That's the difference a purpose built giving platform like Bloomerang can make. Bloomerang customers aren't just fundraising. They are seeing a 27% larger one time gifts than the industry average. They're growing their supporter base by an average of 12% year over year. And that's the confidence to know who to ask and when. It's the joy of seeing your community rally behind you with greater generosity. It's turning passion into unstoppable momentum. Your purpose is limitless and your fundraising tools should be too. Learn how you can start raising [e-mail] bloomerang that's jcsocialmarketing.com Bloomer B L O O M E R A N G All right, onto the show.

[Julia Campbell]

Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm gonna sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

[Kathleen Tanini]

Hello. Hi everybody. Welcome to Nonprofit Nation. Welcome back. If you have listened to Nonprofit Nation. Thank you to everyone who has decided to put on their earbuds and listen to the podcast. Today we have one of my favorite topics, nonprofit communications. And in this episode, I'm interviewing communication specialist Kathleen Tanini to challenge one of the sector's most common traps, mistaking noise for communication strategy. I really see this all the time in my work with nonprofits on their social media and digital strategies especially. So Kathleen is going to share a little bit about her game framework and how she helps values driven organizations get clear and confident about how they communicate so they can inspire real action and not just fill in boxes. Welcome to the podcast, Kathleen.

Thank you so much, Julia. I'm really pleased to be here from across the world.

Yeah. Why don't you tell us where you're based and then a little bit about how you came to work with nonprofits.

Sure. So I'm based in Melbourne, Australia, where I live with my husband, my two little girls. And as you said, I'm a strategic communications consultant working with non profits. But I haven't always worked with nonprofits. It's been a bit of a long, roundabout journey. But the common theme is I've always been really drawn to issues and social change. But yeah, I didn't set out with a plan. I like for a while in high school I thought I might be a human rights lawyer. At university I studied politics and I just really loved kind of learning about how social movements affected policy. And from there I worked as a journalist for a couple of years and then I moved into communications, local government communications for several years. So yeah, I've worked across journalism, government communications and even policy. But I think the common thread has really been about trying to communicate ideas that can make a difference, can change the world a little bit in some politic ways. And then I guess when I had my second daughter, I was looking for kind of more flexible ways to work and use my skills but not be essentially working full time in an office. It was a bit of a no brainer to be choosing to work with nonprofits and organizations that align with my values to, you know, branch out into consulting. I was keen to help particularly nonprofits who are often operating in an environment without being fully resourced and with lots of money to be a bit more strategic about what they do if possible.

So you are very interested in policy and I didn't actually ask you if you were comfortable talking politics, but I don't know if in Australia the nonprofit sector is under attack like it is in America. Right before we hit record, I received a text message that the National Broadcasting Corporation and NPR and a lot of the national radio stations the Senate voted to completely. And that's I think happened. I think it's a very common thread in the sector right now. And I just don't, I wonder what, what's the tone in, in Australia, what's the tone in Melbourne right now?

Completely different politically for sure. The nonprofit sector is always like a little bit under pressure, but nothing like in the United States in, in terms of like funding for national services. Like for sure that our national broadcaster goes through political cycles where they threaten to cut funding, but I don't think it's at all comparable. So possibly, yeah, I mean most of the organizations I work with are Australian, but I think that context is different at the moment. So yeah, I really feel for everyone working in the North. Yeah. In America at the moment I can't, it's, it's hard for us to kind of imagine.

I think it's hard for people around the world to truly understand, like, what is. What is occurring right now and looking at us like we're all nuts. But that's why actually this topic, I think is even more relevant, because in this climate where everything is doom and gloom, I mean, that's kind of how I'm looking at it. A lot of the news coming at us is incredibly urgent, incredibly crisis oriented. And for nonprofits that really want to get their message out there, I do think it's incredibly challenging in a regular environment, let alone in this environment. So you help organizations get clear and confident with their messaging. What does messaging clarity mean to you is sort of in this context?

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward to me. It means knowing exactly who you're speaking to and what you want them to do. So I think like some people get some of this right, they might have some idea of who they're talking to, but I think a lot of people get a bit lost on what they're wanting that personal group to do. So who you're talking to, what you want them to do and why is in essence what messaging clarity needs to me. And like, there's more detail you can add on to that, like how you're framing that message to make people care about it and how specific you are being about who that audience is. And I think that's really. Yeah, as you said, it's important in a context where you're operating with limited resources and time. It also, like, it's basically makes it easier for that person to know they're being spoken to in terms of how.

Specific you're being and why is raising awareness not a real strategy? I'm in complete agreeance with you, agreement with you on that one.

I think that, yeah, I feel really strongly about this one. I think it's two reasons. The first is you can't measure it. How do you measure if someone's awareness has been raised? Or like, I mean, possibly you could, if you had a really huge budget and you could go and do something, survey people's awareness of something. But most people don't have money to do that. So it's very hard to measure in the first instance and it's not tied to an outcome. And I think while awareness can be the first step in getting someone to change a behavior in itself, the evidence is quite clear that someone being aware of something doesn't lead them to do whatever it is you want them to do, to take action, change their behavior. So two Things really. The first being that it's hard to measure so your investment is, is not tied to an outcome and B it doesn't in itself change anyone's behavior. So as you said, it's can be more common than people might like to admit. Like I was scrolling on LinkedIn that my LinkedIn feed the other day and I saw maybe four or five different to very similar style posts. Basically well designed static graphic from like whatever kind of advocacy body it was about day of week of month of kind of awareness and it was just saying that we're supporting X and there's no story attached to that, there's no call to action. It's just trying to tell someone something. But I always see those posts and I'm unclear what I'm meant to do.

What am I supposed to do?

Right, yeah. What am I meant to do with that? And I think, yeah, I think it comes down to people thinking that they have an obligation to just share information but it's not strategic in how they're thinking about what they want that person to do with that information. So yeah, and also I think that there is evidence that it doesn't like even if it's really good like content, unless it's tied to a kind of outcome, it may not necessarily be effective. And I was trying to think of an example of this and there's an Australian one from several years ago. It was, I don't know if you heard of it, it was called Dumb Ways to Die and it was government campaign to stop people walking in front of chains at Crossing.

I think I did hear of this. Dumb Ways to Die was immediately catches your attention.

Yes, it won a lot of awards for being really cut feet. It was like a video that was, I mean basically went viral. Everyone knew about it, everyone heard about it but it was really like the follow up kind of analysis of that campaign was a bit unclear about whether it really had changed the number of people being hit by a train. So there's a difference between really good like kind of catch the content and how that relates to behavior change. And even when it's, and particularly when it's also there's a lot of non catchy, non kind of viral content out there which is basically just trying to raise awareness without making it easy for whoever that person or audience is to take action with that knowledge.

Absolutely. I always say, you know, I can help you go viral tomorrow. All you have to do is do something, you know, go streaking down the middle of the street, you'll go viral. But it's sort of like you're not going viral for the right reason. You're not driving action, the action that you want to take. And it's like you said, you get a lot of eyeballs on it. But so what, like does it move the needle? Does it get people to take action? So that leads me to my next question. Like, what do you think are sort of the key differences between this kind of communication and messaging that looks really good versus communications that actually move people to action?

Well, yeah, I think the first part of it comes down to if you see it or interact with it doesn't make you feel anything. So like absolutely the eyeballs bit. So there is still a lot of communications that I see from non profits which doesn't even get that first bit right. It's like I saw a post from a counseling organization that I follow like a domestic violence counseling organization the other day and they'd done a carousel style post, like infographics of the number of women in each region that they served who had been assaulted in the past year. And the numbers were high and it was like clear information. But I looked at it and I felt absolutely nothing. And like I should feel something. The numbers in themselves were shocking, but they were not presented in a way that told any kind of story or had any impact. So I think like the first bit is about, I think feeling something when you see whatever it is, do I feel part of that or you know, a sense of duty or obligation or that you empathize with that? And then I think the other bit of it is in terms of what good comms is, is when the action that you take almost feels inevitable because the campaign and the environment that you're in has been almost built to ensure that it's actually really hard for you to not take that action. Like for example, I thought of is also another Australian one from several years ago and it was a water saving campaign for Melbourne and they had a very severe drought. It was called Target155. So like basically all the watercorps in Melbourne got together and realized they needed to get people to use less water because their water reserves were running out. But rather than trying to tell people to use less water, they came up with a specific figure in the number of liters per day. They wanted someone, each household to use or each person. And they built a campaign about getting people to only use no more than 155 litres a day. And they did that with a mix of, I mean comms tools and also policy kind of Interventions. So they put on people's bills how much water they were using and compared to the target. They had an update on the evening news during that campaign period of how the city as a whole was tracking towards that target. They had the target kind of tracking on billboards like everywhere. They also had things like, you know, incentives for upgrading your, you know, to dual flush on your toilet and water efficient shower head. So they gave people the tools that they needed. The comms was along the lines of really detailed fact sheets about a four minute shower and how much that saves as opposed to just saying use less water. It was like, right, keep your shower to four minutes.

So more very specific. I like that. Because if you tell me use less water, I don't really know what that means.

And I think they also use the kind of peer pressure isn't the right word, but like, because it was a clear community and it was. Everyone was working towards the same thing.

Yeah, it's everyone's in this together kind of thing.

Exactly. Yeah. So it was a combination of tool like specific, like real life, actual water saving things, plus very clear comms, about 155four minute showers, you know what each bucket, how to say how many buckets of water you can save by doing whatever and I guess the threat of if the city couldn't bring its water use down, that they'd face harsher restrictions. It's probably a mix of like good policy as well as good comms. But to me, what that speaks to is like basically being very clear about the behavior and creating a whole environment where that behavior is almost inevitable. And it's an example of a well funded kind of government campaign. But the lesson is, I think applicable to nonprofits too is like, how do you make that thing that you want someone to do very, very easy using whatever tools you have, including communications. People shouldn't have to be thinking, oh, how do I do that? Or what do they. I'm not quite sure what they want me to do with that information.

Exactly.

To give them information over and over again. You need to make the steps super easy. You need to make the call to action very clear, those kind of things. So yeah, I think it's got to. You've got to feel something and then you've got to be guided to take that action. Yes, as much as possible.

I absolutely think you're right. Especially in digital marketing and fundraising, which is really my area of expertise. If you say give $5 today or give $10 to be a monthly donor, that actually has been shown at least in the United States to increase the number of conversions that you're going to have because then people, they're not thinking about, oh, what is everyone else donating, what's the number that I should donate? That you're knocking down those obstacles in that kind of analysis paralysis. And you're making it super, super easy for them. I know that you're also focused on communications that drive results. So like, why does it matter where an organization's communications are driving results?

Well, I think, I mean, you really just said it right then. The reason why this matters is because it's a difference between results or not. And yes. So that could be donations, it could be event attendance, it could be getting volunteers, like whatever specific thing your organization needs at that time. The difference between good communications and, and not is that those real life actions that you get people to take. So like, to me, that's the main reason. If you are a bit strategic about how you use your communications resources, you can get a real life result. And I think the other kind of reasons why this matters is if your communications investment, like your resources or advertising, whatever it is, isn't tied to results. I mean, you could argue that's a wasted investment. So if you're tying your time and money to results, you're going to waste less time and money. So I think that's important when you're got limited resources. And I think the other one which is perhaps less tangible, but I think people do benefit from, is the clarity and confidence you get from knowing what your message is, knowing that it's well thought out and not having to be like, what am I going to, I'm not sure what to say here or I'm not. What should I be posting about? You know, who am I talking to? Any of those potential questions mostly removed when you've got a clear, clear plan about what you're doing helps you cut through the noise a little bit. I think so, yeah. I mean the main reason is real life results. But there's some perhaps secondary benefits of being sure that your resources are not being wasted.

I get this question all the time when, when nonprofits are asking me about like paid advertising strategies, should I boost this post? Should I create an ad around this? And I think you need to start with the goal in mind, the result that you want to achieve. So when you're saying, should I boost this post? Well, I can't answer that question for you because I don't know what you want to achieve and I don't know what that cost is worth to you like if you say you want to boost a post around event attendance, if you spend $50 and an event ticket is $100 and you get one event ticket, well then you've made your money back. But if it's something like, oh, I just want a lot of people to watch this video, okay, well then take a step back even further, drill down even more and say, what is the results from people watching this video? Is that the right approach to take, do you think?

Yeah. Like what do you want people to do with this information? Because communication shouldn't just be an output, it's a, it's a process to get a result. I mean, I would really. Yeah. Challenge people to not think of it as something you just spend money on without a result in mind. Because I think, yeah, unless you have a huge budget and great staffing and you're able to just put time and effort into visibility for its own sake, then what's the point? Like people are busy and like overwhelmed with information. So what do you want people to do with that? Yeah, exactly what you said. What do you want to achieve with it? And that will help answer whether you should be boosting that post.

Well, let's talk about your game framework. I love a framework my audience loves, like a tactical framework that they can use. Do you mind walking us through, just walking us through the steps really quickly. I think it's a really fantastic thing to have in your brain and I love a good acronym.

Yep, sure. So game is goal, Audience, Message, engage. And it's pretty basic, but it does work. And I think as we've just kind of discussed, a lot of organizations skip the first couple of steps, skim over the message bit and usually straight onto the engage, as in how am I getting my message out? Which is probably not the best way to approach it. So G goal is about that action you're trying to get people to take and really about being as specific as possible and linking it to the individual action you want people to take. So like your high level goal might be we want to get 200 people to attend this event. But the goal you're trying to get your audience to take is to book their ticket by a certain time, I guess. So super, super specific. Like I really think that's about linking your goal to like a high level organization goal too. Not just a goal of getting a certain number of views on that video. Because what does that achieve? It's about what's the strategic goal supports your organization that you're trying to do and how does that Relate to your audience's action so that, that scope then audience is who you're talking to. So basically it's stakeholder analysis. Who are your most impactful or influential stakeholders? And I think, I think a lot of people skip over this. It's, I mean, perhaps not the most exciting thing to be doing, but at an organization level and also for each project or specific project level, you should be able to work out who cares the most about and who can influence what happens the most. And then you spend a little bit of time thinking about how that person, what their interests are and how they like to receive information. So that's about knowing who you're talking to. Then message is related to your audience. It's about crafting a message. It doesn't have to be super creative or anything that speaks to that audience. So what do they care about? And ensuring that you pick up some of those things that they care about, what you want them to do with that. So that's being clear with a call to action, but ideally framed in a way that speaks to the audience you've already identified. Key. Yes, the key audience. So then, and then engage is literally the tools you choose to get your message out. Which is, as I said, I think a lot of people skip that. First they're like, okay, so they just.

Like, I'm going to go on Facebook. Yeah, but they don't have any of the other steps in place yet.

Yes. And I think when you go back to your audience, your stakeholders, it makes the choice of methods simpler. Because if you know, for example, your target audience is actually, I don't know, over 60s in a certain area, like maybe TikTok doesn't need to be part of your key kind of methods that you choose. What's another example of that? Basically like think about who you're talking to and how they like to receive information. I another one I think people skip over is using the, the tools they already have. Like, are you already meeting with these people? Yes.

They always want to add on new tools. They think there's going to be some savior tool.

Usually there isn't. It's about using a combination of what you're already doing. And I generally think people should favor the most direct, sometimes traditional methods first. Like how can you talk to those people in a meaningful way? And then the broader generic advertising can come as well. But that's more of an add on for just to pick up the stragglers rather than being the core part of your strategy, if that makes sense.

Oh, absolutely.

Where the people are if you don't.

Have your game framework and you're starting to run Facebook ads, they're not going to work because you're not understanding what action you're trying to drive.

You.

You don't know who you're talking to. You don't know the message that you know. It's not even the message that we are trying to communicate. It's the message that they want to hear. It's the message that they are welcome to receiving. That is a key piece of communication that I think nonprofits get wrong often is that, you know, oh, we have great, we have a great mission. We're doing amazing work. Yes, you are. But people don't necessarily understand what you do. They don't necessarily understand that this is a problem in the community and what is the message that you're conveying that is sort of in their interest. You know, it's talking to them in the way they want to be talked to. So I think all this is super important. So I do a lot of audits and I know and I really, I like that you propose a no burndown method for messaging audits. I try to propose a no burn down method for my social media audience, but sometimes it doesn't work. But what, what's a practical way that a busy team can kind of review their strategy in this way without kind of scrapping everything?

Yes. Well, look, it's a funny phrase, but I like, I mean it in a way. Like most organizations don't have the time or inclination to start from scratch. Like, let's try and be practical with what people can actually do. So.

[Bloomerang]

Yes.

[Kathleen Tanini]

Mean there's a few things, but I think like the first thing that to make sense to me. So like, look where you're getting results. So what's working? So look across what you're putting out and see where you're getting the most engagement. So you know, are you getting responses when you send out emails, Are you getting comments or shares on your social media? Like that's a first sign that you're doing something right because you will need some channels. So I would start with what's working and if it's clearly not and you're very stretched, like I would look at cutting some of the. If you've got multiple channels and none of them are giving you good results, like I would say condense, pick the few that are working the best and really concentrate on them.

You do not have to be everywhere. You don't have to be.

Yeah, you really, really don't. Like, that's A big thing that I always tell people is the other one I've kind of mentioned. If you're spending money on like advertising and it's not tied to a result, I would suggest pausing that and reviewing that with the lens of what, what outcome can I get from this and how can I measure it? Because unless you have unlimited money, I think you should be able to tie your advertising to some kind of result. So that's a simple thing. If you have, if you are spending money on advertising, which not everyone is. I think another practical one would be if you've got an annual budget for comms, like choosing one goal, one event you want to promote, if it's a fundraising goal and trying to direct, organize your resources around that goal, rather than spending a bit on here, a bit on there, I would target it around that one goal. And if that means choosing not to talk about other issues for a while, I think that's, that's okay. I think that something that has more impact is better than multiple things that have way less impact. And I think because this is really all just elements of the game framework framework step by step. But the other one would be, is if an organization can take the time to look at their stakeholders in detail, I think you really can't. That's such a good investment of time to sit down, map to stakeholders for, on a project level or at your whole organization level, who they are, what they care about, how to talk to them. That could really help your communications in so many ways.

My next question is probably being asked. I can, because I know my, I know my audience very well, I know my stakeholders. I've done the due diligence, I've talked to them. I've. I really listened to their emails and their questions and their comments on social media and I can already hear some of their questions. They are totally on board with what you're saying. Right. So say I'm a director of marketing, I am fully invested, I want to do this. But the problem is the communications is often like a to do list. The board is telling me I have to get out of press release and then the executive director is telling me why don't I post more on Facebook? So how can we convince other people in our organization to move from communications as a to do list or just a task to communications as like a strategy that's going to move the mission?

That's a good question. I think I would go back if I could with an alternate proposal with here's the goal and here's how we're going to use communications to meet it. And rather than. Yeah, because I'm sure you can't just say, no, I don't want to do that. It's more about. Here's an alternate solution. So if, if that was me, I would basically map it out of what I wanted to do with the goal. Look, think about what the organization, what the board or the executive might be interested in to achieve, whether that's a certain fundraising goal or recruiting volunteers, whatever that need is. And then I would go back and map it out how you were going to use your comms for a certain period of time to drive that. That goal. I guess. Yeah. I think articulating that, that what that benefit would be, as opposed to communicating for the sake of it, I think that would be. That's what I would do.

Saying, like, yeah, exactly. Let's stop just throwing spaghetti at the wall and sending press releases out that don't mean anything because they're not even getting us to our goal because no one's reading them. And we're only doing it because we have to do it. I guess that's probably the biggest obstacle probably that you face in your work with nonprofits is the status quo. It's like, we've. We've always done it this way.

Yeah.

Why are we trying something new?

Yeah. It is a. It's definitely a challenge to the way people approach communications, usually because to them, if they get a press release out there or they, you know, that. That, that's the result in itself. So.

Right. Just the doing of the task. Oh, my gosh. That makes me crazy.

Yes. Yes. Which I think maybe it's just a misunderstanding of communications as kind of a process, but. And like, yeah, like, I guess I should. Like, it's not a bad thing to have, you know, visibility for its own sake as well. That can be part of a big strategy, too. But when you don't have unlimited time and resources, some of that stuff is way less valuable than people think. Because you see an article in the paper, what. What is. How can you prove that changed anything? They are interested in what serves them, and they're overwhelmed by information. Like, think about how you feel when you scroll on your phone. Like, most of it is like, I just can't. I can't deal with this. So if you're not being clear, you're really adding to that noise. And I would really challenge people to think, what is it that I'm doing? And how will it change someone's behavior?

Exactly. It bothers me so much when I drive down the highway and I see an ad for a non profit that just says like, we are the food bank. And then it has their website. And I think, how much money did you spend? I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Also, how can you measure results if you're just sending me to your homepage of your website? That is one thing. It's like, oh, great, we have a billboard. A lot of people are seeing it. But what is, what action is, Are they actually taking at the end of the day?

Exactly. And even if you could measure eyeballs on that billboard, which you can't, but like, I mean, you can measure impressions on a, on a social media post, what do those impressions mean in real life? Did someone go and do what you wanted them to do or really did they just scroll past? I mean, mostly they scroll past because people will. Yeah. And like, as you say, a food bank, what does that tell them about the impact of that food bank and how your donation might impact someone's life? Or how does it show how that food bank is any different to any other food service? Like, there's so many services out there. What's different about yours? And how can your impact, how can you individually be part of that?

No, it's so frustrating. Bad communications that's like also my pet peeve. Or not bad, but just communications that could be more effective. That's what I try to say. So what is one simple shift that an organization, someone listening today, could make to clarify their message, like this week? What's just like, is there some simple shift that they could make?

I feel like I've probably already said it, but yeah, really, what do I want someone to do with this piece of information that I'm giving them? So is it a call to action on your post or is it a link to what you want them to do? And obviously there are, you know, exceptions to constantly driving people to action. Like, obviously there's a place for kind of high level, kind of educational content sometimes and behind the scenes content, all that stuff. But overall I would be saying, what do I want someone to do with this information? And if you don't want someone to do with anything to do with that information, you can strongly consider not sending it out. Like, go back, what do I want someone to do with it? Add a clear call to action. That would be like one simple thing that I think people could, could start to do.

Absolutely. And I really think it's so funny. I do. I always think when I talk about communications and messaging that it's intuitive. But a lot of people don't talk about it and do it every single day and teach people every single day. It's not something that they do. They want to make the world a better place. They're focused on their programming. They're focused on their, their mission and their vision. They're not focused on, you know, tweaking the messaging because, you know, they're doing 90 other things. Like a lot of nonprofit professionals have 45 other duties as assigned or they a one person shop. So all of this has been very just simple and streamlined and straightforward and I really appreciate it. So Kathleen, where can people learn more about you and your work and connect with you? Are you on LinkedIn? Are you on the socials? What's your website?

I think that, yeah, the easiest way for people to reach out is LinkedIn or Instagram. And I, yeah, link back to my website. But yeah, in the first instance, I think LinkedIn and Instagram. Yeah. If anyone has any questions or anything like, I'm more than happy to answer them and I'm keen to hear what people thought, I guess.

Yes, I love that. Okay, I will put those in the show notes. If you want to contact Kathleen, feel free to get in touch. But thanks so much for being here on the podcast and just for being, you know, across the world. And I know you've got two really young kids and, and scheduling can be a bear. I know you're on winter break. We are on summer break here. But thanks so much for being on the podcast.

No, my absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[Julia Campbell]

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's video conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this.

[Kathleen Tanini]

Tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to.

[Julia Campbell]

And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77.

[Bloomerang]

Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.