Stop Sharing Info, Start Meaning-Making with Kristen Grimm

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell

Episode: Stop Sharing Info, Start Meaning-Making with Kristen Grimm
Release Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Julia Campbell
Guest: Kristen Grimm, Founder and Strategist at Spitfire Strategies

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Julia Campbell hosts Kristen Grimm to explore the vital concept of meaning making for nonprofits. Instead of simply sharing information, organizations must help people make sense of the complex world around them—interpreting events, generating resonance, and leading meaningful conversations. Kristen draws upon her recent “Meaning Making” blog series to offer practical frameworks, share compelling stories, and provide real-world tactics for nonprofit communicators striving to rise above chaos and foster lasting impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Meaning Making in the Nonprofit Context

• Meaning making is “the process of helping people interpret what's happening.” (04:31)
  • In times of dramatic change (technology, politics, climate, societal shifts), people seek understanding above mere facts or data.
  • “People are sort of like holding on for dear life and saying, okay, what does this mean? So they're searching for the meaning. And that's a very human thing.” — Kristen Grimm (04:46)

2. Why This Moment Demands Meaning Making

• Current societal shifts are as profound as the arrival of electricity, changing every aspect of daily life.

  • “We have a lot of tectonic shifts going on. [...] When people are open to remaking up their mind about what do I think about that, it is a really interesting time.” — Kristen Grimm (05:52)

• Significant issues (e.g., threats to SNAP benefits) become opportunities to discuss larger questions about government, society, and values.

  • “You need to focus on the future, not saving the past… this isn't about this program that frankly a lot of people have problems with… it is to say, what is the right way to make sure that everybody in this country can actually have the meals that they need?” (08:56–09:24)

3. The Phases of Meaning Making

Kristen’s Framework:

1. Chaos: Identify turmoil or confusion relevant to your field or mission (e.g., potential government shutdown affecting SNAP).
2. Clarity: Go beyond the immediate crisis to propose a new, aspirational vision.
3. Future Making: Shift the narrative from preserving the past to innovating for a better future.
4. Credible Reference Groups: Engage trusted voices (“social reference groups”) to champion the new perspective.
5. Majority Making: Build broad-based support so the new narrative approaches societal consensus or becomes the “new normal.”
   • “Meaning making is not a solo journey, it's a team sport.” — Kristen Grimm (14:05)

4. Trust and Social Reference Groups

• “You really do need to know who you're trying to engage with, because they do have trusted sources. … It’s called a social reference group.” (11:58 & 12:57)
• Collaborate across organizations and leverage voices that audiences naturally trust on specific issues.

5. Collaboration Over Siloes

• Highlighted examples of collaboration (e.g., smaller food banks elevating the work of No Kid Hungry).
• “We need to come together with what exactly are we trying to socialize and popularize as a meaning making thing.” — Kristen Grimm (14:12)

6. The Power—and Challenge—of Storytelling

• Storytelling is crucial for shaping vision, but “where-are-we-going” stories are the hardest to tell.
  • “It's so much easier to do a nature-of-our-problem story… what I have a really hard time doing is saying, hey, this is what it actually looks like to have a truly equal opportunity society.” (20:10)
• Acknowledging emotional truth and starting with people’s lived experiences is critical for empathy-building.
  • Example: Shoplifting perceptions in DC pharmacies and how these shape beliefs about crime. (23:40–24:40)

7. Live Examples of Meaning Making in Action

• Mental Health: Shift from “treating mental illness” to “promoting mental well-being.”
  • “Instead of just stopping bad things, mental illness… (it’s) bringing it into something we all actually want, which is mental well-being.” (26:09)
• Phone-Free Schools: Responding to the modern dilemma of technology in education by reframing the conversation toward shared aspirations for student well-being. (26:55)
• Emphasis on community and normalization (“the perceived social norm is moving in my favor”—29:34).

8. Advice for Small Nonprofits

• Seize the opportunity to build, not just defend.
  • “Rather than feeling like you are hospice to the old systems and defending the status quo, instead spend your time building… be the doulas for the new system and not hospice for the old.” (30:15)
• Proactive over reactive: Focus energy on imagining and realizing new systems, not just blocking harmful changes. (33:16)
• Use creativity and constraints to fuel innovative thinking and positive visioning. (34:21)

9. Avoid Distractions—Lead Visionary Conversations

• Don’t spend energy fighting every outrage or online battle.
  • “Build what you want to build, say what you want to say… attract the people that are going to build you up…” — Julia Campbell (33:16)
• Example: Instead of fighting about White House renovations, spark vision by asking, “What would the best White House for America look like today?” (35:00–36:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Meaning making is the process of helping people interpret what's happening… People want to know what's happening around them and what it means and then decide how they want to act.” — Kristen Grimm (04:31)
• “Meaning making is not a solo journey… you gotta get your whole field.” — Kristen Grimm (14:05)
• “Storytelling is super important because once we do the meaning making about the future we want, we have to do what I consider the hardest of stories to tell, which is a ‘where-are-we-going?’ story.” — Kristen Grimm (20:01)
• “Acknowledge that people are emotional about things… what people do is they think about their experiences in life and then they make up the stories that tell them what's happening.” — Kristen Grimm (23:18)
• “We need to come up with what exactly are we trying to socialize and popularize as a meaning making thing.” — Kristen Grimm (14:12)
• “Be the doulas for the new system, not hospice for the old.” — Kristen Grimm (30:15)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-----------|------------------------------------------------| | 02:25 | Kristen on her accidental start in social change work | | 04:31 | Definition of “meaning making” | | 05:47 | Why this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity | | 07:49 | Applying meaning making to the SNAP debate | | 11:26 | Addressing trust and social reference groups | | 14:05 | Importance of collaboration and aligned messaging| | 20:01 | Role of storytelling in meaning making | | 23:18 | Addressing emotional truth and lived experience | | 26:03 | Example: shift from “mental illness” to “mental well-being” | | 29:34 | Power of shared norms (phone-free schools) | | 30:15 | Advice for small nonprofits | | 33:16 | Proactive vs. reactive action in messaging | | 35:00 | Example: visionary use of White House controversy| | 36:57 | Where to find Kristen and the Meaning Making series |

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Conclusion & Further Resources

Kristen underscores that meaning making is a fundamental human need—and a profound leadership opportunity for nonprofits. By choosing to interpret change, set visionary goals, and offer clear narratives (in coalition with others, and anchored by trusted voices), nonprofits can move people from confusion to collective action.

Learn more:

• Spitfire Strategies—Learning Section and Meaning Making Blog Series
• Reach Kristen at [e-mail]

Julia Campbell:

• Instagram: @juliacampbell77

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This summary provides a roadmap for nonprofit professionals eager to shift from simply disseminating information to actively shaping the understanding and actions of their communities—and building tomorrow’s movements, today.

Transcript

[Julia Campbell]

In a world hungry for change, nonprofit impact matters more than ever. Yet you're asked to constantly do more with less. What if you could do more with more? That's the promise of Bloomerang, the giving platform built for purpose. Fundraising, CRM and volunteer insights are integrated to reveal opportunity and generosity so you can make more connections with more funds raised for even more impact. Now that's more like it. Learn how you can do more with [e-mail] that's B L O O M E R A N G.com now on to the episode. Hello, and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. This is Nonprofit Nation with your host, Julia Campbell. And today we're going to talk about Meaning Making, helping people make sense of the world instead of just sharing stories and messages. And my guest today is Kristen Grimm from founder and strategist of Spitfire Strategies, a leading communications firm that helps nonprofits, foundations, and social change makers sharpen their voice and deepen their impact. And today, Kristen's going to be drawing on her recently published Meaning Making blog series and giving us a timely roadmap for any nonprofit leader looking to rise above the chaos and communicate with resonance, which is something I love to teach about as well. So, Kristen, welcome.

[Kristen Grimm]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on your podcast. Yeah.

[Julia Campbell]

So how did you get into social change work? What spurred you? What moved you to get into the social movement work?

[Kristen Grimm]

I wish I could say that I knew exactly what I wanted to do and I did it, but that was not true. I got out of college and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, so I drove down to Washington, D.C. and I ended up working for a very small public interest communication firm. And I actually didn't know what public interest communication was at the time, but one of our really early pieces of work was we were working to. We got a big tranche of the smoking gun memos from tobacco companies that actually showed that they were in fact, marketing to kids to get them to smoke. And I think it's such a great example of meaning making that for a long time people were trying to figure out a smoking good is smoking, bad is smoking. And we were kind of stuck in there.

[Julia Campbell]

Even if we knew it was bad, how can we communicate that it is bad? Because. Exactly.

[Kristen Grimm]

Yeah, but it's like we had to actually get documents that showed that they were actually lying to be able to do the meaning making around smoking, which was to remind people that these were people who their business model was to get people hooked on smoking. So it's actually not that, you know, unreal that they would be getting kids to smoke as lifetime customers. So from very early on, I have seen the tussle in society about, you know, what is this? What does it mean? And understanding that that changes over time.

[Julia Campbell]

I really love that. I think we all, kind of, a lot of us, a lot of my guests fell into this work. We just knew what we were passionate about, or we knew that we wanted to change the world and make change in some way. But I don't think many of us said, we're going to go into nonprofit communications. I knew that I wanted to be a journalist. That's what I went to school for. And then sort of fell in love with nonprofits and activism. But I never knew that it was a career. And I was so excited when I found out that it was. So you talk a lot about meaning making and you wrote an entire blog series about it. So tell us, what is meaning making and what inspired you to write this series?

[Kristen Grimm]

Right now, meaning making is the process of helping people interpret what's happening. So, and sometimes you would think like, well, isn't it obvious? No, it's actually not obvious all the time. Like you have to interpret what is happening. So like, people don't know everything that's going on with AI. They don't know if it's going to mean they never have to work again or it's coming for their jobs. Right. There's a lot of interpretation going on. So people want to know what's happening around them and what it means and then decide how they want to act. Am I for it? Am I against it? So people are often, you know, we are sense making machines and right now we're in the middle of a lot of change. You know, we're in, we have climate change, we have political change, you know, we have societal change, we have changes in roles, we have changes in gender identity. We have so many changes going on. And People are sort of like holding on for dear life and saying, okay, what does this mean? So they're searching for the meaning. And that's a very human thing.

[Julia Campbell]

No, I agree. And you wrote the blog series. You describe this as a once in a generation opportunity for communicators. So why do you believe that this moment is different? I know that this moment is different. I can feel that this moment is different. But how do you explain that? Like, why do you believe this moment's different from others that we faced before?

[Kristen Grimm]

It seems like we have a lot of tectonic shifts going on. So in different times in society, like, if you think about it, you know, in the late 1800s when we suddenly had electricity, like, electricity changes everything. Suddenly you don't have to just work when it's light out. You can work all the time. You can do your schoolwork at night. You know, suddenly the world became a lot smaller. Cause I can send a telegram because now I have electricity. And so anytime there's really big tectonic shifts. And I think right now, when we think about a lot of the big shifts, everything from technology to globalism to populism, we just have a lot of forces that are right now roiling all of society. And that's not unusual. We've seen it throughout history. But it's a time when we're rethinking, we're rethinking our institutions, we're rethinking how should we be governed. We're really thinking about what it means to be a leader. So much seems up in the air. And on the one hand, that's really scary. And on the other hand, if you're a social change organization, it actually means, wait a second, people are open to that. When people are open to remaking up their mind about what do I think about that is a really interesting time.

[Julia Campbell]

I think so too. I think that this time, I mean, especially as we're recording, I mean, this will not come out. Hopefully SNAP will be reinstated. But as of this recording, it's on the chopping block. And millions of people, tens of millions of people are position to lose access to food. I just think that the rhetoric right now is so damaging and so dangerous. And it's so hard to know what to believe and know what to think. And it's just so hard to communicate from a place where you can talk about meaning. I know that for me, I'm very passionate and I come from a very emotional place when I talk about things. So I always need a strategy to kind of Plan it out. And you do have that. So you sort of have a framework, you have the phases of meaning making. Can you walk us through these phases?

[Kristen Grimm]

Absolutely. I think the first thing, and let's just take your snap example because I think it's a really good one to play with right now. So for people probably know the government shut down right now in the US and what that means is that if they don't figure out the funding mechanism, about more than 40 million people will actually lose access to healthy foods. And so in addition to thinking about food, which makes it very personal very quickly, it also starts to make us think about what is the role of government. So now suddenly there's a really big question here, which is what is the role of government? You know, how should they be making sure that people don't face things like starvation in a, in a country of abundance like America? You know, why can't they get themselves together and make some deals here? So I think the first thing is to understand where is there some chaos that people are like, what do you mean? What do you mean that we might lose this? Because suddenly that's going to touch a lot of people. So a shutdown tariff, some of these things can seem really hard to understand. But suddenly when you and, or your neighbor can't actually go get food that they need for their family, like that's going to hit really fast and it's going to raise these questions. So if you can take that chaos and say, okay, instead of just protecting us from something bad that might happen, like, let's make sure this bad thing doesn't happen, which we should definitely do. The meaning making is to actually, what's the good thing to come from this? How do we as a nation actually want to make sure that we and our neighbors, nobody is facing starvation in this country? And it opens up a conversation that actually might not happen that often. It's not necessarily top of mind, but this might suddenly be a top of mind conversation. So then the question is, can you move? Can you actually be proposing what this looks like in the future when it's done really well? And again, I try and tell people you need to focus on the future, not safe saving the past. So this isn't about this program that frankly a lot of people have problems with on all sides of the aisle. It is to say what is the right way to make sure that everybody in this country can actually have the meals that they need to have a good life? And that is a reasonable conversation to have. And snap is probably part of the answer. But it's so much bigger than just snap.

[Julia Campbell]

Exactly, exactly.

[Kristen Grimm]

Yeah. And so once you sort of understand future, you're saying, I'm actually saying what needs to happen for the long term. Not only this quick fix, use this moment of conversation to actually put in a much more ambitious way to make sure that we don't have hunger in America. Like, that is the conversation that I think meaning making can have.

[Julia Campbell]

I completely agree. And so you're going to go through the phases.

[Kristen Grimm]

I just keep interrupting you so, you know, it's okay. It's chaos. And in chaos, what you want to do is provide clarity. And by the way, don't just make it less chaos. Right. It's actually more of this good thing that we want. So what is the future making that you want to do? Give an answer to? Suddenly this big open question that is out there. Like, we're seeing that with academic freedom right now, right. Then you need other people to come in and credential. And this is important, is somebody needs to be like, that is the way forward. Who are those people who are trusted in society to start saying, yeah, let's do that. This is the thing we want to get on, right? Get a moving train going, because you want it to catch on. You want the idea to be like, that is the right way to move forward. And then you want to actually start seeing majority making. And that means that suddenly, like right now, we're going to see farmers, we're going to see Republicans, there's going to be a lot of people who are really trying to make sure we have no hungry people in America. So start pulling all those people together. Suddenly it seems like, wow, this is. This is the new normal, right? We hear that stuff all the time. If it's not this, then what is it? And the next thing it is, is this is going to be our new normal for this thing. And that's when you know your meaning making has gone mainstream. So that's sort of how you can track that.

[Julia Campbell]

Okay, so let's talk about trust, though. So if trust is decimated across the board, and then there are certain groups that trust certain people and certain groups that trust other people. Um, it's really hard to know. You know, I, I based everything on science and facts. That's what I try to do. But for a lot of people, it is hard to know who to trust and what to trust and find trusted resources. So how can we emerge out of the chaos? Like where. What are some strategies we can use for that?

[Kristen Grimm]

You really do need to know who you're trying to engage with because they do have trusted sources. And you're right. I think it's great to acknowledge your sources are these and other people may have other sources that you don't even agree with. But you have to say this is who they're getting their information from and this is who they trust to get it through. And then you have to say, can I actually work in those channels with those folks? You know, I think you see right now for a lot of people who want to make sure that we are really in a society with rule of law, a lot of people are going and getting military leaders to talk. And that's because a lot of people, when they think about like, are we really in danger? Or you know, like a lot of people are like, oh my God, we're going to slide into authoritarianism tomorrow. And I think a lot of people are like, wait a second, you know, I don't trust a lot of those folks saying it, but I am going to look to people to like who tells me are we really unsafe? And so they're looking to the military. So you're seeing people who are trying to say, hey, there are some danger signs and we want to get these nipped in the bud kind of early. It's super smart to be doing that with the military because that's who people are trusting on this issue. It's called a social reference group and it's a really, it sounds like a big fancy phrase, but what a social reference group is, it says I trust this person on this issue. So it's not to say I don't trust the military on everything. Right. But it is to say I probably do trust them for national security because I feel like they have a lot of information, they have insider knowledge. I don't have, I don't necessarily trust them for gardening, right? So for gardening I'm going to go to somebody else. And so we need to think about, hey, who are these people going to automatically see, seek information from? And those are the people who are going to actually help us do the meaning making.

[Julia Campbell]

So for nonprofit communicators, is this something where we need to be collaborating, we need to be stepping out of our silos? I think I see a lot of what I see on social media right now. I, I like, I see organizations elevating other organizations voices and talking about the national conversation. I see small food banks elevating like what no kid hungry is doing. I really am. I'm seeing a lot of collaboration right now. How can we Continue that with some of the other causes we're working on or trying to communicate about.

[Kristen Grimm]

Meaning making is not a solo journey, it's a team sport. Right? Like, you gotta get your whole field. It can't be that, oh, I, you know, in this space think this. And then my ally who's in the exact same issue sees it slightly differently. And pretty soon we have this highly nuanced, super complicated, I don't get what this means. I get what no kid hungry means. Right. I get what fight for 15 means. I get what quiet quitting is. So we need to come up with what exactly are we trying to socialize and popularize as a meaning making thing. And sometimes, like I said, when you're trying to think about, well, what am I offering in this chaos? You might be saying, I'm offering you an analysis of this problem. We see this in immigration, right? We've been tussling now, is immigration good? Is immigration bad? Is immigration good? Immigration bad? We have a lot of forces who are like, immigration is horrible. It's bringing crime to our cities. We need to crack down on it. You know, we're gonna have mass exportation, ask questions later. Other people, though, are saying, like, immigration is like how our economy works. It's how our culture is as vibrant as it is. It's part of our history, right? And we're seeing this tussle go on. And recently Gallup came out with a poll and it said 79% of Americans suddenly are saying immigration is good for America.

[Julia Campbell]

Yes.

[Kristen Grimm]

So in the tussle, people are making meaning, which is, okay, it's good for us. So now the question is, if it's good for us, how do we make the most of it? And who's moving on that versus, you know, the people who are going to continue to try and damage and say this country would be better off without immigration, but they're actually losing the meaning making. The question is, will we actually put the things in place to make the most of the good that comes from immigration in America? Are we going to keep fighting the bad?

[Julia Campbell]

That's a very interesting Gallup poll. I think what's so interesting about that is it does sometimes seem that America is divided on this issue, 50 50. But I know that we're not and we are not. And it's just the loudest, noisiest, most disruptive voices that tend to get heard. And, you know, that's often very unfortunate for a lot of us that are really trying to bring people together around these issues and hear a variety of different voices and like, talk to people. Sometimes people, they're very hesitant to speak up. And I don't blame them. I mean, if you just go on Facebook for five minutes and you say that you like pine trees, people are going to say, well, why do you hate maple trees? And why do you hate palm trees? It's just like a never ending divisiveness that I see all the time. And it really, it really bothers me. But I do think there are some things that can unite us. But what are some signs that, you know, maybe a nonprofit would not. Is not ready or an organization is not ready for meaning making. And like, how can they better prepare themselves? Because it's coming.

[Kristen Grimm]

Yeah, no, I think that that's the thing is you do have to realize it is coming. I think you have to be okay to say, what can I contribute to that? So who do I have standing with? And you've talked about it with trust. Like, if, if we're trying to do meaning making, first of all, what is the meaning making? And maybe you have to sit there by yourself and think about it. But my guess is if you go and you look at the field you're working in, there's some offerings. So then the question is, can you pick an offering and then can you say, hey, I think I can contribute. I think I can actually make this a thing within the communities I have standing in trust with and get them to understand why this is so important. You know, we saw this in the census in 2020. You know, a lot of people were trying to make the case that maybe we wouldn't count people who were not here legally. But the Constitution is very clear. The Supreme Court backed it up too. You count everybody who's here. And it's a really important thing is to offer that contribution, which is, you know, this is the fact, this is why we do it. You know, the Supreme Court has backed it and like, it's really important if you have standing with certain communities who might think, like, I'm afraid to say anything, that I'm here because I think it'll cause me harm, you're going to have to do the meaning making around that. And meanwhile, in some pretty challenging headwinds of people who are basically like, you shouldn't count and if you get counted, we'll come after you. So, like, that's tough meaning making, but you've got to be able to say, hey, listen, here's where I can contribute. Here's where I have trusted voice and I'm willing to use my voice. To do the positive meaning making that I think will get us where we want to go in this case, an accurate count for census.

[Julia Campbell]

I absolutely agree. And I really wish nonprofits would look at themselves more as the trusted voice and the trusted go to resource. I think that organizations are hesitant to take a stand on. On issues that they know more about than anyone because they're concerned about pushback or concerned about offending one out of 10,000 people on their email list. But honestly, nonprofits are on the ground, in the trenches, doing the work every single day. And who better to really understand, like the ramifications of some of these policies and some of the things going on. You know, I feel like we, we listen to experts all the time. But I would love to see more nonprofits actually like program officers and executive directors talking about these issues going on the news. I'd love to see more of that. I think it's so powerful because like you said, we need to build up these trusted. What would you call them? The societal.

[Kristen Grimm]

The social reference group.

[Julia Campbell]

Social reference group.

[Kristen Grimm]

Who do they look to to understand what does this mean? You know, we all turn to people to be like, what do you think? Like, you know, we were voting this week out here. I live in Montana and you know, I called people who've been here longer than I have to say, hey, who are you voting for? Like, so those people are my social reference group. I think they're plugged in. I think they understand the community. They've done their candidate research. You know, I'm interested in their opinion, you know, which is really different than friends of mine who I know are tuned out and I'm not going to call them because they're not going to have a lot to tell me.

[Julia Campbell]

Exactly. I teach a lot about storytelling as a way to communicate, a really effective way to communicate, especially around hard issues. So what role does storytelling play in this process?

[Kristen Grimm]

It's actually super important because once we do the meaning making about the future we want, we have to do what I consider the hardest of stories to tell, which is a where are we going? Story. Yes. So where are we going? Stories are so hard. It's so much easier to do a nature of our problem story. If I have to explain to you, like, what's wrong with this thing? Or this is where structural racism is, or like, I can pull those out all day long. What I have a really hard time doing is saying, hey, this is what it actually looks like to have a truly equal opportunity society. What is that? You know, what does that actually look like, and is it a place that people want to go to? There's an old Japanese proverb that says, if you get on the wrong train, get off at the next station. And I think we sort of feel like that, that a lot of people in the US Are on the wrong train, and we need to get off at the next station, but we still have to give them another train to get on.

[Julia Campbell]

Like, yeah, we can't just be stuck at the train station.

[Kristen Grimm]

Yeah, that's right. They really want to be on a train that's going somewhere. So, you know, where is the train? And it has to be a future that they really want and can see themselves in. I think one of the hardest questions we've been asked as a society, and I don't know that, you know, the nonprofit sector has answered so well, is we've heard from a lot of people now that they really feel like the systems are rigged against them. That's really what they're doing. And they have a bias towards action. They like to see this administration moving. They feel like they're at least doing something. They're not just either telling them it's not a problem or like, the economy's not a problem. And they're like, is it a problem for me? And even if we're like, yeah, I'm not sure that's the right direction to go in, I think there is this bias towards action. But I think when you don't have a good answer for why is the system rigged against you, then we just leave the playing ground to the other side, which is saying the reason is because of wokeism and immigrants, and that is why the system is rigged against you? And then the question is, is, well, what stories are we telling on the other side that says, actually, it's corporate greed, it's cronyism, it's this other stuff. And more importantly, not just, oh, God, that seems very David and Goliath. Here's where we actually can be, really. The people are coming first. Like, where's that actually happening? Because otherwise, people just have this disbelief. They're like, this will never change. It's always been like this. And they become. It becomes a condition we suffer through.

[Julia Campbell]

I definitely agree with the bias toward action, and I do think that unfortunately, like, the loudest voices and, you know, the movement toward blaming other people for your problems is just so unified across media outlets, across the administration, across anyone that's in the political party is just very unified in this one message. And I clearly believe it's completely wrong and abhorrent but. But it's powerful when it just keeps coming at you from all sides and like you're saying the other with other messages being a little more nuanced and complicated. Like, talking about systemic issues and systems change can be a lot harder to swallow for people than saying, oh, we should just round up all the immigrants in your community. And it's really hard for me to wrap my brain around, like, why that is so hard for people to understand. But as a communicator, I feel like I need to do a better job. I have a responsibility to do a better job in communicating. But like I said, I just tend to be very passionate around the issues and trying to be more logical.

[Kristen Grimm]

You're bringing up a really good point, which is what we need to acknowledge is people are emotional about things. And generally, again, on the meaning making front, what people do is they think about their experiences in life and then they make up the stories that tell them what's happening. And so, you know, I have friends who are so frustrated all the time about crime and going into, like, why immigrants are getting blamed to others. And they're like, you know, crime rates in many cities are going down. Crimes are getting better. And I'm like, but here's the story. Like, I was just in Washington, D.C. where I work sometimes, and I go to the CVS and when I'm in the CVS in Washington, D.C. i have to stand in the aisle and push a doorbell and have a CVS employee come, you know, and it takes a little while to get deodorant.

[Julia Campbell]

And then in my so optics, yeah.

[Kristen Grimm]

Oh my God, crime here is so bad. We have to protect the deodorant. And like, that's real. And so you can pull all the data you want. But my experience is, whoa, like, this is really out of control. And, and so many things happen like that for people. And we don't acknowledge as communicators in the nonprofit space of these are all the stories that are in their brains already.

[Julia Campbell]

Yes.

[Kristen Grimm]

And if I have to counter that story, I have to start there is that Kristen's experience is she had to ring a doorbell to get her deodorant. So now let me talk to her about crime from there and think about my storytelling strategy to get her to step away from that story and get another story going with her.

[Julia Campbell]

I think the best storytelling creates empathy and talks about it, acknowledges that everyone has a different experience. But it's like, this is one of the, this is an actual experience of a person, like, experiencing homelessness. It's not one story to rule them all. You know, it's not. We're not trying to make this one person be the only, you know, the emblem of, of all the unhoused. But that's going to create that sort of empathy, that real life of, oh, wow, you know, this is really something that's happening in my community. These are real people, these are real children. This is a real problem. And hopefully getting people to think maybe a little bit differently or even just question what they're hearing, what they're reading, what they're seeing. But I think that's so important. People come from their own experiences and their own lived experiences first. And to acknowledge that and to really understand that, I do think nonprofits are just so uniquely poised to do that. And we're just, we have this unique superpower in our storytelling and in our communications that we can do that. These are, oh my gosh. So these are just such great. These are, oh my gosh. I just like so much food for thought. But I would love to ask you about some, some live examples of meaning making happening now just to give us some more like, tangible concepts. So in your article, you do highlight some. Could you share one or two that stand out?

[Kristen Grimm]

Absolutely. And actually I'll pull off of what you were just talking about about homelessness. I think a great example of meaning making that's happened over the last couple of years is we really went from treating mental illness to promoting mental well being. And that's a really big shift when you think about it. And it does all the things I'm talking about, which is instead of just stopping bad things, mental illness, and then sort of thinking about like, we're fixing people, which I think just brings on the stigma and all the other things, versus bringing it into something we all actually want, which is mental well being. So it's providing the good. And if you think about it, a lot of our stuff has switched to having healthy mental wellbeing. And you see this playing out. I've been spending some time with the folks who've been doing the bell to bell phone free schools. And that's really happened because I love.

[Julia Campbell]

That we have that here. I'm on the school board here.

[Kristen Grimm]

It's in 20 states now. You know, all sorts of people have gotten involved in it because it really started with, you know, these phones were just in school and people sort of had this hunch. They were like, I'm not sure this is so good for the kids to be on these phones all the time. And for the Teachers.

[Julia Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen Grimm]

Then Jonathan Haye writes a book about the anxious generation and we start to see like, oh, there's actual consequences. And again then people start to feel sort of disempowered though, like they don't have agency, like how can I, I can't just go tell my kid they can't have a phone. Like that's going to be terrible.

[Julia Campbell]

It's an impossible situation.

[Kristen Grimm]

Right. But the people that came in were suddenly like, look, let's do the meaning making which is that schools should be phone free zones. And suddenly that whole idea of like, huh, totally new, like phone free zones. And you're starting to see people really get into it. But again it goes under this bigger meaning making which is we want to live in a society where our children and everyone actually has mental well being, not just solving mental illness. So I think that's a great example of meaning making done really well, where we start to see society gather behind the concept of mental well being.

[Julia Campbell]

So. Exactly. Not just fixing people. I love that. Really promoting a future that we want. This is the vision of a future that we want. Rather than saying, giving, throwing stigma on people and saying we're going to fix you because there's something wrong with you and we want to fix what's wrong with you. I think that's a great way of thinking about it. But I love the phone free schools because it's something that we as a society need to come together around. It can't just be left up parent to parent to parent because that's an impossible situation. You know, it's sort of like, like a lot of things that are left up to the discretion of parents that I think should just be litigated by something. I'm like, just tell me what to do that I could tell my kids they can't do it. So that's not to abdicate responsibility for parenting, but it is so much easier when you have a group of people that are all together saying this is the same thing. I'm thinking the phone example as well. I have a 10 year old son and he's friends and I'm friends with a lot of the other moms who are on the same page as me about a phone. You know, I, I'm not saying, you know, what anyone does in their house is wrong, but for us, I don't want him to have a phone right now. So for having a community of people around that feel the same way, you know, we're all questioning it, we're all asking the same questions. We're all thinking about it. Nothing's perfect, but it's helping me understand that I'm not alone in this and that, you know, maybe what I think isn't wrong and I'm not a bad parent and I'm, you know, maybe doing something right so. Because a lot of what we do in our lives is so lonely and we just have no idea if we're making the right decision and we're just kind of winging it.

[Kristen Grimm]

Exactly. Well, and to know. And again, it became like for a moment you felt like the abnormal parent. Right. That I don't want my kid on this phone all the time, but I know they're going to be ostracized and people are going to think I'm crazy. And then suddenly you heard, oh no, there's other mothers. And suddenly you realize, actually the perceived social norm is moving in my favor and you can use that for momentum. Right. So even if the norm slowly became all kids had these phones in schools, it changes. That's the point about meeting making. Suddenly you're like, I'm not sure that was such a good idea. Let's meaning make this differently. And that's what you're seeing happening right now.

[Julia Campbell]

Oh, I think it's so interesting. So what advice would you give to really small nonprofits? You know, they kind of want to step into this work, but they, they don't know where to begin.

[Kristen Grimm]

Yeah, well, first I would just say see it as the opportunity it is. I think a lot of people are finding themselves in that weird position. So as institutions come down. And again, I would not want USAID to have come out the way it did. I would have planned that differently. At the same time, a lot of us knew USAID wasn't working so great anyways. We will continue to do international development. So there's an opportunity now, rather than feeling like you are hospice to the old systems and defending the status quo, which you could spend a lot of energy on, instead spend your time building. Think about what is the next generation of international development actually look like? What is your vision of that? How do you want to contribute to that? I think that people need to think about being the doulas for the new system and not hospice for the old.

[Julia Campbell]

What about the role of media making evolving? Because I love the idea of building, but we're in like a slash and burn culture. We're gonna burn it all down, destroy it. What is it? Break thing. Move fast and break things. That's really where our culture is going. And I, I don't know, for us that really want to do that, we want to be the doulas, we want to bring this new world into fruition. You know, how. How do you see the role of meaning making evolving and how can we evolve with it?

[Kristen Grimm]

So some people, and there are many of them, will have to block. You need to be really clear if you're blocking or you're building. What I'm talking about with my meaning making is building as opposed to blocking. And I will just say that it was funny in Covid again, you know, there was a great group called us Digital Response. And this was suddenly, you know, when everything shut down, we had all these people, all this digital talent, and we had all these problems with government. Like literally there were several states websites that were just going to go down as soon as everybody applied for their unemployment benefits. And so they actually took the thing of move fast and make things and what they did, because suddenly it opened up, we could get waivers on. It used to be that all systems at the state level and the federal level, frankly, are very proprietary systems, you know, built by the Beltway Bandits. They cost a gazillion dollars, they are not easy to to change, but suddenly they could actually pull off the shelf, you know, the very software that makes Uber Eats possible, and actually work with the food banks to make sure they could all go mobile. Like suddenly we could have telehealth because we had privacy things from Zoom and other commercial things that we could actually put into place. And so, you know, move fast and make things is an alternative way of thinking about right now. Again, we want a government that's very responsive to us and it frankly isn't. So I don't think the current administration is going to scratch that itch either. But suddenly there's a bunch of us who probably have a bunch of ideas that we can put forward about what a responsive, people oriented government looks like. And we have an opportunity to do that. So I would say to groups, look for these opportunities because I think we spend so much time reactive blocking and we don't do the building. And then nobody sees us as visionary. They really just see us as propping up the old systems which aren't working that great.

[Julia Campbell]

So be more proactive rather than being reactive. I actually do teach nonprofits that when I teach social media and I teach communications to be, you know, thinking about how are you going to proceed no matter what? And like, what do you stand for? And draw a line in the sand, what are you unapologetically going to stand up for? And not worrying about a lot of the noise and, you know, not getting yourself involved in every argument. And that's very difficult for me. But I've learned that in the past year. Don't get yourself involved in every argument. Don't get yourself involved in every single online commentary. Build what you want to build, say what you want to say, and then like, attract the people that are going to build you up and help you and talk with people that have, like, legitimate thoughtful critiques and legitimate thoughtful questions. But then ignore the trolls and don't engage with. With people that are just there to, what do you say? Burn you down or just there to burn it all down and have no regard for building anything better.

[Kristen Grimm]

And I think being really deliberate about the role, like you just said, at any moment you have the chance to play a lot of roles. I posted yesterday, Big Think had this great article about why your best ideas tend to come after your worst ones. So it's like when you get it all out, you get to your. Your good idea. But one thing they talked about was putting constraints on. And when you put constraints on, you actually get more creative. And I thought to myself, like, I watched the whole thing last week where everybody went crazy around the White House and the East Wing and you know, can they.

[Julia Campbell]

Well, it's completely gross, but yeah, can.

[Kristen Grimm]

I take it down? But I thought to myself, but what if instead you said, you know what? I'm not going to criticize it anymore. What I'm going to use it as an opportunity is, you know what, the White House is really old. The White House was built by slaves. We should make some restitution. And if we wanted a White House that really represented the people, what would that look like? Like, that is such an interesting conversation to think about leading, which is, what would a people's house look like today? If it was truly reflective and in fact, you might take the whole thing down because of how it was built and you might put up in its place a very sustainable building that's incredibly welcoming. And what does that look like from a design sense? Like, imagine if we said, what would our very best White House look like today? What an interesting conversation to have. I don't think it would have a ballroom, for example, so. Right. But it would give a totally different way of thinking about it rather than, you're not going to stop this thing. It's actually already been destroyed and we don't have to sit there and say, the East Wing was actually kind of ugly and it was built during wartime when you really had to house a bunch of people really fast. Okay, like, but it's like we're going to go, you know, tilt at that windmill as opposed to what conversation does this allow us to have? Which is what would be the best White House for America today?

[Julia Campbell]

I love thinking about it that way because it makes me less angry. But I also think getting angry about something like that that Trump is doing, he's like a toddler. He just wants attention and he wants to make you angry and he wants. So it's to me, when I saw that, I thought, oh, just another like cry for attention and another cry to make people upset and to distract from what's really going on. And I think that's so important that what you're saying is we get so distracted from the real issues, which is, yeah, what would a White House look like if it was truly for the people, by the people, and was welcoming and open and sustainable and environmentally friendly? I think those are really interesting conversations to have. So it certainly left me thinking. But Kristen, where can people connect with you online and get your blog series and learn more about Spitfire strategies?

[Kristen Grimm]

Absolutely. People can go to our [e-mail] and we have an entire learning section. So meaning making can be found there, as can many other tools. If people are thinking about how to do communications, we share all of our tools. We want the field to be communicating as well as possible. And they are welcome to also connect with [e-mail] I love any questions or thoughts or constructive feedback. Any is valuable. Yes.

[Julia Campbell]

Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I loved it.

[Kristen Grimm]

Julie, thank you so much for having me.

[Julia Campbell]

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded and as soon as they come out, I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact.

[Kristen Grimm]

So that's pretty much it.

[Julia Campbell]

I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you non pro prophet unicorn.