← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:03]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effect build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. All right. Hi, everyone. This is Nonprofit Nation. I'm so thrilled that you're here. I'm really excited to be in your earbuds, in your car, wherever you're listening. I'm Julia Campbell. The topic today, the old rules of fundraising are dead. And I'm sure that like everyone else in the sector, you're tired of chasing after $20 donations like a squirrel on espresso, which is a term coined by my guest today, Ria Wong. Now, Rhea has over 20 years experience in the nonprofit space as an executive director and a frontline fundraiser. She's the author of get that Money Honey and a sought after speaker, and she's helped hundreds of nonprofit organizations raise millions of dollars for their causes. And in this episode, we're going to break down the old rules of fundraising, how we can move away from these survival mode tactics that leave us feeling icky and start nurturing genuine relationships with our donors. We will also talk about giving Tuesday. We're going to talk about the fundraiser X factor, the importance of mindset shifts, and a lot of other things. So I really want you to welcome virtually, you can be clapping in your car wherever you are. Welcome, Rhea Wong. Thanks for being here, Rhea.
- [02:15]
Ria Wong
Julia, thank you so much for having me. It is always so fun to hang out. And I think maybe I was one of your first guests when you first launched this baby out into the world.
- [02:24]
Julia Campbell
Yes. And, and I meant to look it up and I really believe you were probably in the first five guests and your episode has over like 1,500 downloads. I meant to check.
- [02:34]
Ria Wong
Shut the front door.
- [02:36]
Julia Campbell
Yes. I meant to check for you. I will check for you after this episode. But yeah, still one of the most downloaded episodes.
- [02:41]
Ria Wong
Oh, thanks. That's so great. Well, you know, you are a fantastic interviewer. I am a fan girl myself of all the work that you do. So it's a mutual admiration society.
- [02:51]
Julia Campbell
It is. It absolutely is. And we were Just talking about your email newsletter. I'm an avid reader. And in the latest newsletter, you talk about the Valley of Despair and how everything seemed to break in 2024. What happened to fundraising this year?
- [03:10]
Ria Wong
So it's really like four stages, right? So the first stage is when we start something new. We start a nonprofit. We start a new job. We call it the Peak of Mount Stupid. We're like, I don't know what?
- [03:21]
Julia Campbell
I don't know. Stupid.
- [03:22]
Ria Wong
I. Yeah, so it's this Dunning Kruger effect, which is like, you're confident because you actually have no idea how little you know, right? So it's like ignorance is bliss. You're like, yeah, I could do this. I'm a smart person. I should be able to figure this out. And then very quickly, you descend into the Valley of Despair once you realize the extent of your incompetence and lack of knowledge. And I also think the value of despair happens when circumstances change. So I've talked about this with Brooke on my last podcast. When we hit rough times, there's sort of a three things, three levels that we go through. The first is we blame the circumstances. Oh, it's the election. It's the war in Ukraine. It's the war, like, inflation, like, all the things, right? Then the second layer is we blame other people. Oh, my God. My board's not doing what they're supposed to do. My funders aren't doing this, that my donors aren't doing this. And the third level, which I think is really where you take back your power, is it's you. You're not good enough. Your marketing isn't good enough. Your messages aren't landing. And once you actually get to this realization of maybe it's me, that's when you can actually do something about it, because you can't do anything about other people. You can't change the circumstances of the world. You know, it's like my mom probably said, like, you can only change yourself, right? So change. Or actually, what she used to say is, fix your face. So fix your face, because you. You have no control over everything else. So what I think happened in 2024 was a lot of us are riding kind of this pandemic wave, financially speaking. Look, obviously, the pandemic was very terrible in many, many ways, but for a lot of nonprofits, they actually made more money than they ever did because people were at home, People had some extra money. You know, we were all flush with cash because the government was giving us checks. And so we were donating, and we were Seeing the need, Right? So we were donating. I think that happened with institutional funders. It certainly happened with individuals. So we got that pandemic bump, and then the tide went out. And as Warren Buffett say, when the tide goes out, you can see who's naked. Like, the tide went out because that's when we couldn't just count on people's money coming in without a lot of effort. And so what happened, I think, in 2024 was a confluence of different things. Right. It was the pandemic bump going away. It was fears about inflation and recession. It was actually, the stock market is doing pretty well, but it was also a lot of static intention around the election, and people were just totally saturated with messages. And so. And I'm sure you're saying it in your space, which is like, why are people respond to my messages? People are tired. They are exhausted. And by the way, anybody who's listening to this, act blue, you can stop spamming my text messages. Like, please, I don't need more of that.
- [06:06]
Julia Campbell
I still haven't figured out how to sign out of that. I. I study it as a marketer, so I am intrigued by it, but I know that it turns so many people off.
- [06:16]
Ria Wong
Yeah, I get the sense of urgency. But what I don't like about it is I did not opt in to that. Right. I opted in to give a donation. And all of a sudden, like, you sold my information to every local congressman running, and I'm like, wait, I don't even know who you like. Who are you? How did you get my number? So that is why I think we need to talk about Old rules are dead, because I think a lot of the playbooks that we're using turn people off, which is why I think we just need to rethink the whole thing 100%.
- [06:47]
Julia Campbell
So let's dive into that, because that's the topic of this episode, and that's something you speak about a lot. And I firmly also believe this, but I'd love to hear your take on it. The old rules, the old ways of fundraising are dead. What do you mean by that? And what are the rules that we need to be sort of getting away from?
- [07:08]
Ria Wong
Oh, my gosh, so many. How much time do we have? Okay, actually, chime in here, too, because obviously, with your expertise in social, I'm sure you have seen this a lot in your work, but I think a lot of the ways that we're taught about fundraising were developed in a different era. Right. It's this concept of, I have the world of potential donors out there, you know, whoever they are. And then I qualify them by doing things like wealth screens, or I try to Google search them, or I'm, like, looking at who else they're giving to. And then I try to cultivate them by reaching out, trying to have a coffee with them, trying to get them to a meeting, et cetera, and they're largely ignoring me. And if they do respond, I'm putting them in the cultivation process that they're not even aware that they're in. So, similar to AppBlue, like, but atBlue, sure, maybe at some point they asked my consent, but, like, they didn't really ask my consent to sell my information. And so consistently, we are out here acting in ways that are not consent.
- [08:11]
Julia Campbell
Based, and we're destroying trust in the process.
- [08:14]
Ria Wong
We're totally destroyed. Well, and that's the other thing, is we have not built enough trust and goodwill, right? And so the old method of fundraising is ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, right? Like, see applique for details, like, I'm just gonna send you a million requests or the times that I am in contact with you. It's not that I'm providing value to you. I'm just asking for me. And I think a lot of us, the fundraising world, are brought up like, well, the number one reason that people give is that they're asked. And I think that's actually bullshit. I think it should say, you're asked for the right thing at the right time, for the right amount, by the right person. And by right, I mean, you actually have to build up enough trust in the relationship. And here's the other mistake that I think people make is they think that the way that I'm gonna do it is I'm gonna reach out for coffee. So let me back up for a second. I have lots of conversations with nonprofits, and I ask them, like, well, what's. What's your strategy for identifying major donors? Like, what's a strategy? And, like, when they're really pushed, a lot of them will admit that they actually don't have a strategy. And the ones that do have a strategy are working on an old playbook, right? So it's like the definition of insanity. We all know this doesn't work, but, like, we keep doing the same thing because we have no better way to do it. Now, I could go on, okay, but part of the issue, too, is, so I hear this all the time when I'm reaching out for coffee with donors. They're not responding. Like, what gives here? Like, I Want to start building a relationship with them. Well, first of all, you're thinking about it from your perspective. You're not thinking about it from the donor's perspective. And frankly, we have. And I've. As a donor, I've been burned by this, too. You ask me for coffee, but what you really want is money, right? So, of course I'm not going to take that meeting, because I'm like, I don't even know you like that. And also, I've been burned before, so I don't actually believe that you want to have coffee. I believe that you want to solicit me. And you're just couching it as, like, I'd like to get to know you. And then I'm, like, getting ready for the, you know, the I'd like to know you.
- [10:12]
Julia Campbell
Okay. Sounds like a crypto scam.
- [10:14]
Ria Wong
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm ready for, like, the sniper shot. So instead, what I really think is we have to think about donor tactics and strategies that mirror consumer behavior. So here's the thing. When I'm buying something, I usually buy online, I don't need to talk to anybody. And if I do go to a store, I actively avoid talking to any salespeople. Cause I'm like, I'm just browsing. Unless I have a specific question, in which case I will reach out and let you know if I need help. But, like, I hate when people get in my face, like, can I help you?
- [10:47]
Julia Campbell
Like, oh, my God. Like, Sephora. You get asked 20 times, and it's like, no, I just want to look for, you know, lip gloss.
- [10:54]
Ria Wong
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm just. I'm browsing. Please get out of my face. Right. That's how we are in our consumer life. And yet we expect donor behavior to be different. Right? So we are essentially the equivalent of the Sephora people being like, can I help you? Can I help you? I'm like, no, no, no, calm down. I'm not ready yet. I'm not there yet. Because what we know is that most donors will do their own research. They'll look at your socials. They'll go on your website. They may ask some friends. They may look at your 990 if they're super savvy. But, like, they won't need you until they need you. And for us to push our own agenda on them, because we want the gift, and we. The timing is good for us, and we think that they should engage with us, really is very disrespectful of the fact that the donor has Their own wants, needs, desires and agenda. So let me pause there. I've said a lot, but all to say that I think the way that we've been doing it historically is broken. And I be willing to bet fundraisers who are listening to this right now are nodding along like, yeah, this is not working. And I'm spending the bulk of my time chasing after people who don't want to talk to me.
- [12:03]
Julia Campbell
This is the principle that you talk about. It's not about you, it's about them. In the context of donor engagement, how can we best cultivate this mindset? So I think the challenge is a lot of people listening are the frontline fundraisers and they're not necessarily the decision makers. And they get these top down directives, as you know, from the executive director of the board that says, okay, Oprah Winfrey is rich, like, let's go ask her for money, or this person in the community is rich. Or you should be having more donor meetings. Like, why are you having more donor meetings? How do we sort of cultivate this mindset where we're slowly introducing these concepts to an organization that might be resistant to them?
- [12:51]
Ria Wong
Oh, so many good points. So I think I'm going to disaggregate that question into two chunks because I think on the one hand you must resist the urge from the higher ups, the board, the Ed who are sitting on you. Like, I need to see activity. Because they equate activity with progress, right?
- [13:09]
Julia Campbell
Yes. And it's almost like number of calls made with progress. It's like that. I agree.
- [13:15]
Ria Wong
Yeah, yeah. It's like I could make all the calls in the world. I could call every single person in the entire country. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm moving things forward in a meaningful way. But here's the thing. The reason why they equate activity with progress is that they don't have a better framework to understand what it means to move people forward, to advance people. Right. To engage people versus I do stuff to them. And so there's this illusion of control that we have of, oh, we have a moves management system. Right. I love that. Have a moves management. We have a moves management.
- [13:47]
Julia Campbell
It sounds like chess. It sounds like it's a game that you're going to manipulate someone and win.
- [13:52]
Ria Wong
That's right. It's like I'm going to do stuff to you and like there's some magical combination of things that I'm going to do and words that I'm going to say that will mesmerize you. Julia, to finally Give me a gift. And it's like, okay, have you met another human? Like, really? Is that working for you? And so at the level of major gift fundraising, I think the first thing that people really need to think about is, like, what's in it for your donor? Because especially with wealthy individuals who are asked all the time for gifts, the question is, what's in it for them? Right? Because if you're just another person who's lining up to ask for a check, I'm gonna ignore you because you haven't told me what's in it for me. And I don't mean, like, what's in it for them in the sense of swag or, like, I think people automatically be like, well, I send T shirts. I'm like, no one needs another freaking T shirt. Please stop it. What I mean is, how am I helping my donor to realize their deepest hopes, dreams, and desires and purpose for the world, Right? How am I helping them to do the thing that they want to do? Maybe it's about building legacy. Maybe it's about teaching their kids values. Maybe it's about paying it forward. Maybe it's about making an impact in the world. Like, these are all reasons that your donor has for wanting to give to your organization. And the more that I, as a fundraiser, can help my donor to understand their purpose, I give them the gift of helping them to find meaning and purpose in their lives. And the more I can deliver that to them, the more value that they will see in the relationship. So I think the first thing is what's in it for me? Then the second piece is the reason why your ED and your board is on your back about why aren't you having more meetings is because they. You probably don't have a strategy. And so if you actually had a strategy and that you could explain the timeline and you could explain, like, here are the different things that we are going to do, and this is the ROI on it, and this is how we know that people are moving forward. Then they would probably give you a little bit of breathing room. And so let me explain what the strategy is. The strategy is you have a world of people out here, your prospects, right? Basically everyone in the world. And then what you do is you warm up your audience. You're an expert at this, Julia. Like the marketing, it's content marketing. Like, you're sending out messages to people that are of value to them, and then you create a feedback loop. Whether it's a survey or you're looking at digital engagement or you're looking at email opens or you're looking at click throughs, you're looking at some indication that they want to be engaged further. With that, you create a filter where you're, you're essentially segmenting your list. Do they have capacity? Do they have a reason to give? Is the timing right for them? Was there someone in their life that inspired them to give? And then based on that, so that would be like a pre qualification step. Then you move them into full qualification. And what happens in full qualification is that you do a discovery call. And in the course of that discovery call, you essentially issue an offer, an invitation. Hey Julia, what I do as a fundraiser is I help my donors to give in the way that is most impactful for them. So why don't I do this? How about I create a roadmap for you? And the roadmap will be a series of activities that we can do together that will help us to get to know each other. And at the end of this plan, I will put a proposal for funding for your consideration. And by the way, you can opt out at any point. But I just want to make sure that like, this is a plan that's going to work for you. How does that sound? And then as a donor, you can be like, yeah, that sounds good, or like, no, now's not a good time, or whatever it is. I put a plan together, I put it in front of you, we decide like, okay, this is going to work. This is not going going to work. I'm going to be out of town here and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you just work the plan. So there's no moment where there is a gotcha. Like, it's totally transparent and you're actually talking to people who have opted in. So the bulk of your time is not spent chasing people who don't want to talk to you. It's spent with people who have said, yes, I want to be on this journey with you and I know that it's going to end in a proposal for funding. And the other mistake that I also made is I would spend lots of time with people. And because I wasn't clear with them about like, this is actually a cultivation, it would get into this weird, like gray area where I was like, oh, now we're friends. Like, now they think I just like to hang out with them and they don't actually realize I intend to ask them for money. It's like, let's just tell them what we intend to do at the beginning and then they can decide if they want to be on that journey. It's like when I was dating many, many years ago. I've been married for a long time, but when I was dating, I really appreciated when I would go on dates with people and they'd be like, hey, just so you know, like, I'm not really into anything serious or like, hey, I'm looking for a relationship. I'm like, thank you for telling me. Then I can decide what journey I want to be on with you. But, like, it's very confusing if I'm thinking, like, this is just a fling and you're thinking, like, I'm looking to get married. Like, let's just.
- [18:43]
Julia Campbell
Right.
- [18:43]
Ria Wong
Let's just get on the same page here.
- [18:45]
Julia Campbell
Well, it's like Brene Brown says, clear is kind.
- [18:49]
Ria Wong
Clear is kind.
- [18:50]
Julia Campbell
I always think about that when I'm speaking to anyone in any capacity. Clear is kind because being unclear is unkind, because you might be scared to be clear, but for the other person, they're confused, they're overwhelmed, they don't know what's going on, and then it just leads to a lot of time wasting and probably a lot of emotional fallout. So clear is kind. My favorite saying of hers. And that's what you're saying, like, just be. Let's just be open and honest and upfront.
- [19:22]
Ria Wong
Yeah, totally. And. And the things. It will save you a lot of time because if you're actually engaging with people who are like, yes, I want to be on this journey with you, then great. I mean, look, I'm necessarily saying that every single person is going to end in a gift, but your hit rate is going to be much better. Your ROI is going to be much better because you're already telling people what the end point is. And so it's funny, the clearest kind thing, because, you know, I love a dating analogy. My friend John Rinaldi first said that even before this whole Brittany Brown thing, and it was actually a dating thing. It was like, I was dating this guy. I was like, not really that into him, but I was like, oh, I don't really know how to break up with him because he seems really into me. I don't want to hurt his feelings. My friend John was like, ria, remember, clear is kind. I was like, you're right, John. You're right. I have to, like, cut him loose so that he can find someone who he's meant to be with. Because it's not me.
- [20:16]
Julia Campbell
No. 1,000%. It's so hard to do that in practice. It's just so important. I think that's Amazing. So I wanted to talk about Giving Tuesday. Can we talk about that? And then we can talk about also. I mean, there's so much else we can talk about. So you when before we hit record, you had said you have some mixed feelings on Giving Tuesday. I encounter this all the time. I feel like I'm the Giving Tuesday whisperer or counselor or something because I'm constantly talking to people about their mixed feelings about giving you today. And as you're like a therapist, when this is published, it's going to be just a few weeks away. So tell me about your mixed feelings and we can go from there.
- [20:59]
Ria Wong
Okay, so let me just start by saying, and I say this. I've talked to all of the folks over at GivingTues A. I adore them, I respect them. I think they're very smart. I think the concept of a global giving day is fantastic. I love the idea. I love the concept. Generosity. Yay. Double click on all the things. Where I have mixed feelings about it is a couple things. A. I think that we as a sector have trained our donors to only give once a year. And we train them to give give at the end of the year, which for a lot of us is not necessarily helpful because if our year end is calendar year, then like, we don't know if our money is coming in until the very, very end. So I think part of it is about the messaging to the wider donor audience. The second thing is I think it creates a lot of agita for fundraisers because it becomes this very high stakes. Like if I don't get my money on Giving Tuesday, then it screws up my entire year end. The third thing is, I think as a donor, it's not that fun. I'm sure you get this too. Like, my inbox fills up with a bajillion asks for donations.
- [22:07]
Julia Campbell
Well, I do think that you and I are different in that way. I don't think the average person gets that only because we donate and we interact with nonprofits so much. But I hear what you're saying.
- [22:17]
Ria Wong
I would guess that a lot of people get multiple solicitations.
- [22:21]
Julia Campbell
Anyone that's donating? Well, yes.
- [22:22]
Ria Wong
Yeah. And it's not that I mind being solicited, but again, I think it's part of the value equation, which is have you actually provided value for me prior to the ask? Like, did you tell me, first of all, did you tell me what you did with my money? Like, that's the big thing. I donate to lots of things. Very few. Or actually, I'm Gonna say zero organizations actually tell me what they've done with my money. And not in like a granular, like your $5 did this, but like, just tell me, like, what happened this year? What did you do? What's that? Like, what impact did I help to make? How are you making me feel good about the fact that I gave you my hard earned money? Right. It's almost like they feel entitled to this money and I'm just this ATM that they hit me once a year. So as a donor, it doesn't feel great. So it's less about Giving Tuesday and more about, I would say, stewardship behavior, which is like you generally, as a nonprofit probably have not done a great job of closing the story loop for people about what did you do with your money? Why is your money better spent with us versus anybody else? And how do I make you feel? And then the last thing I'll say is, I think because it creates so much agita for nonprofits, I think people spend a lot of time and energy on Giving Tuesday. And I don't necessarily see that it results in ROI that's worth the amount of time and effort and energy. And I think maybe it was you, Julia, who said your rule is spend 30 minutes. Or maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was you, but spend 30 minutes, write your social media posts, write your emails, and then done, like, don't obsess over it. Don't spend that much time. And I think because we make such a big deal of it and it's almost like if I don't do this big thing, I'm doing the wrong thing because all my other non profit peers are doing it. And if I don't do it, I'm going to be left out. So I think that's the other problem. And then the last thing I'll say is it tends to be very mass communication. Right? So I get like, you're not segmenting your list. Like you're hitting me as if I'm just everybody else. And the way that you should be talking to your returning donors is different than the way you should be talking to your news donors, which is different than how you should be talking to your volunteers. Like, personalization is key. And I think AI is part of being able to personalize at scale. But I think nonprofits still haven't gotten the message around personalization, which by the way, is beyond, like, I'm inserting your first name.
- [24:42]
Julia Campbell
Oh, I know. I think that Giving Tuesday is a symptom. And I also want to go back to Something you said before where nonprofits really need to be like, are we blaming Giving Tuesday or are we looking at what we're doing? Are we looking at us? Yeah, because Giving Tuesday is such an easy scapegoat for fundraisers and for nonprofits. But it's just everything you said to reiterate, the old rules are dead. We can't continue to put the 2014 playbook for Giving Tuesday into what we're doing in 2024. And we really need to be more strategic and intentional. And what I've seen some fundraisers just saying, okay, we're just going to do a thank you campaign or we're going to do an advocacy campaign or we're going to send out an email like you, like you just said, one of those emails that says, here's what we did all year, be prepared for our year end campaign. So I, I've been seeing it kind of being used to experiment in a lot of different ways. I completely agree with everything you're saying. But I also think in my work, especially around social media, that nonprofits tend to blame the platform. They blame the day, they blame the weather, they blame everything else. And they're not looking internally as to whether or not their communications are permission based. Like you said, like, are we buying email lists? Are we selling our email list? Are we just spamming everybody? And they're not looking at whether they're campaigns are intentional and meaningful and like, how have they communicated throughout the year? So to go on that, I want to hear from you, what do you see? I mean, we talked about the mistakes nonprofits make in donor cultivation. What would you like to see nonprofits be doing to, I mean, build relationships? We said it 50 times. But like to cultivate donors and to make them feel like they are partners in our mission and less like ATMs.
- [26:39]
Ria Wong
Yeah. Well, again, I think it's about creating a plan that is of value to your donor and not to you. So I think a lot of times, because we're not talking to our donors, we think in our brains, like, oh, they're definitely going to want to come to a site visit, they're definitely going to want to come to coffee. They're definitely going to want to meet our board members. I don't know, they might not. Right. And so it's like Mike Tyson, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. I'm like, every question you have can be answered by talking to your donors. And I think if you go in with the perspective of how can I add value to them. Not necessarily what I think is valuable, not necessarily my timeline, not necessarily my agenda. But how can I be in service to my donors, to help them bring them into a partnership that is meaningful and rich to them? That's how we get true partnership. Again, let's talk about relationships. Julia, you're married, right?
- [27:34]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
- [27:35]
Ria Wong
So as two married ladies, I think we can both acknowledge that the reason we are still married is that you continue to invest in the relationship. It's a relationship of partnership. It's not a relationship of extraction. Like, if I had a relationship, it's hard work, right? It's like human beings. Human beings are weird and messy and, like, inconsistent and all the things. But if it's worth it, you do the work. If you continue to see value in. Okay, this might be a tough conversation, but I'm going to have it because I'm invested in the relationship. I mean, I think in part it is that we're understaffed, and so we get really transactional, and we're like. We check it off the box. And in my mind, once I get the gift, I've closed the gift. But in the mind of my donor, I just thought that was the opening of the relationship.
- [28:21]
Julia Campbell
Like, I thought opening, not the closing.
- [28:24]
Ria Wong
Yes. So it's not about closing the gift, it's about opening a relationship. And so when in your mind you're just closing the gift, you're leaving all these open loops where people are like, hey, I thought we were just getting to know each other. I thought we were just getting started. And here's the other truth is, a lot of major gifts come after a small gift. Right. They're just testing the waters to see what you're going to do with the gift and how they're going to be treated. And so the truth in the matter is, a lot of times when we talk about major gifts, it usually comes from people you had no idea about. People who are not even on your radar necessarily. Right. Because that's the other thing. I have a bone to pick about wealth screening. Like, people think that wealth screening will tell you all the things. I think wealth screening is a data point. It is not the data point. Just because someone on paper is a millionaire does not mean that they are necessarily going to give to you. And by the way, when you live in areas like Boston, New York, San Francisco, Louisiana. A lot of that net worth is in your real estate. Like, if you own a house or a condo or whatever. And, like, as much as I love you, I'm not going to send My condo to give you a donation.
- [29:31]
Julia Campbell
I think that we don't do enough with being more intentional in looking like. It's almost like grant writing. Yeah, Just sending a grant out to every foundation within a 50 mile radius without really doing the research on are we aligning with their objectives and priorities? What have they given to before? Have we talked to the program officer? It's, it's a lot of like spray and, and pray.
- [29:57]
Ria Wong
Yeah.
- [29:57]
Julia Campbell
So how do you suggest that nonprofits balance seeking new donors and retaining existing ones? Because I know a lot of people listening are probably like in small shops and they might have to wear all the hats. Like, how can we strike that balance?
- [30:13]
Ria Wong
Oh my gosh, I love this question, Julia. Okay, wait. Fun fact. I just found this out. You might have seen it in my newsletter, but I just found out the lifetime customer value of a Starbucks customer.
- [30:23]
Julia Campbell
I did it in her newsletter, but I'm dying to know because I love Starbucks.
- [30:28]
Ria Wong
Okay, so.
- [30:29]
Julia Campbell
Oh, no, I actually care to know.
- [30:30]
Ria Wong
What is it the average Starbucks customer spends over a lifetime with Starbucks? $15,000. $15,000. That is a lot of freaking coffee, right?
- [30:41]
Julia Campbell
Oh, God, yeah. Between me and my daughter, that's probably true.
- [30:45]
Ria Wong
Yeah. $15,000. Okay, so here's the thing. Starbucks can spend a lot of money on acquisition because they know over the lifetime that every single person who walks through Starbucks on average will spend $15,000 with them. Now, if we took that concept and we applied it to the nonprofit sector, the problem that we have is that most of us have a leaky bucket, which is to say that more than 50% of the donors that we pour in come out the bottom, right? So we spend lots of money and time and energy on acquisition, but then we don't spend the time on retention. So what I'm going to say to everyone out there listening is if you do nothing else this year, I would like for you to prioritize retention. Because if your retention rate is anything less than 50%, that means that you are just basically pouring money down the drain, Right? You're getting these people and they're just leaving you. And so I want to see your retention rates up, certainly above 50, but like 60, 70, as high as you can get it. And if the only thing you did this year was retain and upgrade your donors, you would be in a much better position. Because here's the other thing. If you're spending a lot of time on acquisition, but you haven't plugged the hole again, it's not going to be that effective because you're Just pouring money down the drain. So to answer your question, I would say if I were to advise folks out there, 80% of your time this year should be about retention and 20% about acquisition.
- [32:12]
Julia Campbell
Love it. I love a framework. I love that. That's awesome. I completely agree. And of course, in my work on social media, it is a lot about acquisition, but it's also about stewardship and staying top of mind and sharing stories and creating that trust and affinity that's so important. So looking forward, what are some key donor trends that you're seeing? What should fundraisers be paying attention to as we enter this year end giving phase?
- [32:40]
Ria Wong
Yeah, so many things. So let me back up a second. When I think about scaling up your fundraising operations, I kind of think about the four points of construction or your four constraints. Right. So your first constraint is traffic. Are there literally enough eyeballs on the thing that you do? And this is where you're so good, like social media followers, email list, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the first point of construction. The second point of construction is conversion. Are you converting enough of these people to donors? The third is donor value. Are you asking big enough that you're actually making money? Are you retaining? Are you asking frequently enough? And then fourth is retention. And so what I want people to think about is work on the first constraint first. So what that means, and I would guess for 99% of the nonprofits out there, the first point of constraint is the traffic. Are you sending enough emails? Are you posting enough on social. And I don't mean spamming people. I mean are you creating high value content that gives people a reason to notice, to stop the scroll, to share, to click, to comment. Again, that goes back to the first thing that we said, like, if that's not happening, maybe your marketing just isn't good enough. Maybe you're putting out crappy content. If every time you send out an email and you get a whole bunch of unsubscribed, that should tell you that you're sending out bad emails. Right? So that's constriction point one. And so in terms of trends, I think we need to get better about micro niching. So I think we go deep, not broad. And so instead of talking to the masses, I think we need to get super duper clear about the subset of people who are true fans.
- [34:27]
Julia Campbell
Right.
- [34:27]
Ria Wong
I think about Kevin Kelly, the thousand true fans.
- [34:29]
Julia Campbell
Yes, 1,000 true fans.
- [34:30]
Ria Wong
Yeah. Who are your super fans? Who are the people who are going to show up at everything you do? Who are going to donate every single time you ask, who are going to buy your swag, who are going to talk about you to your friends. Talk to those people and ignore the rest. Because here's the thing, we live in too noisy a world right now to try for the masses. What we need to do is shrink down and build deep community with the people who love us and become superfans. Because I was talking about this yesterday, like Apple has like a bajillion dollars, right? And Apple is not even able to sell to every single person on this planet. And Apple's marketing budget is way bigger than yours. I think the trend is go deep, not broad. I think the trend is send better emails, tell better stories, engage on social in a more effective way that actually gives people a reason to follow, gives them a reason to take an off platform action. And then I think transitioning to this consent based model is going to be key because it puts the control in the hands of the donors. Like the donors have been wanting control and not control in the way of like, I want to tell you what to do, but control in the way of like, I want to know that I am a partner in this work, not just a walking atm. So those are kind of my top predictions.
- [35:42]
Julia Campbell
Well, I'm sad to have to wrap up this conversation. It's been fantastic and I don't. I won't wait couple of years again before having you on the podcast again. Where can people work with you, Ria? Where can they find out more about your work and connect with you?
- [35:58]
Ria Wong
Thank you for asking. So I definitely recommend that everyone joins my newsletter. It comes out every week. Even if you don't like what I'm saying, you'll see the strategy behind it.
- [36:09]
Julia Campbell
And hopefully it's a great newsletter. It's not written by ChatGPT. It's clearly written like from the heart. I love it.
- [36:16]
Ria Wong
Oh, thanks, Julia. I like it. It's fine. Plus you get cute dog photos, so like that's a bonus. Yes.
- [36:20]
Julia Campbell
Oh my gosh, the dog photos.
- [36:22]
Ria Wong
You can't. Who can't use a cute dog photo in their inbox? So there's that. And then I have my program big ass gift. So if you have an existing individual donor program and you want to get into the major gift game, check it out. You can find it on my website. Ria Wong. R H E A W u o n g.com wait, before we jump, can I just add one more thing about the X factor?
- [36:45]
Julia Campbell
Yes. Oh, the X factor of fundraisers. I love that. Yes. Okay, so I think that I didn't get to.
- [36:51]
Ria Wong
Yeah, it's a really good question. So I think, first of all, I believe that fundraising is a skill, and like any other skill, you can learn it. What I will say is, I think that there's this misconception that fundraising is pitchy. Like, I'm just gonna go in with, like, my deck and, like, say some kind of magical combination of words. The truth is, the best fundraisers are introverts. The best fundraisers know how to listen. The best fundraisers are curious about other people. Like, genuinely curious. And not in a way that I'm, like, curious because I'm trying to, like, manipulate you into things, but curious because I want to know who you are as a person, Julia, and I want to know how if I can align the thing that you care about with the work of my organization, or if not, like, if you're like, hey, Ria, guess what? I just really deeply care about saving the whales. And I, as a fundraiser, can be like, you know what, Julia? I can refer you to a couple of organizations that are doing fantastic work to help you as a donor to achieve the impact that you want in the world. So I think when I think about the best, they're connectors, and they're empathetic, and they're good listeners. So when I think about the X factor, it's about having a genuine curiosity about the other person and a willingness as sort of a servant's heart, if you will.
- [38:03]
Julia Campbell
I came to be a development director from Journalists. I was a journalist, and I was a communicator, and that's what I studied in college. And I agree with you. That genuine curiosity, that ability to listen and ask questions is absolutely vital. Like you said, people think fundraisers are salespeople, but they actually need to be those connectors. They have to be curious. They have to think like journalists. They have to be empathetic. So it's actually the complete opposite? I think so.
- [38:32]
Ria Wong
Total.
- [38:32]
Julia Campbell
I love that ending on that. Everyone, I encourage you to go to rhea wong.com, sign up for the newsletter. And, Ria, you have a podcast too?
- [38:42]
Ria Wong
I do. I do. Nonprofit lowdown. So you can check it out on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to interviews with Julia.
- [38:51]
Julia Campbell
Yay. I know. I was just on. So thank you so much for being here today. I'm just always thrilled to talk to you.
- [38:57]
Ria Wong
Thanks, Wren. This is so fun. And happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
- [39:07]
Julia Campbell
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77 Keep changing, changing the world, you non profit unicorn.