← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
The People Problems Nonprofits Can't Ignore with Bernadette Jones
00:37:44
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A
This episode is sponsored by my friends at Bloomerang. You already know your donors care. You see it in every gift and every note that comes back with a check. What you might not know is what they're telling us right now in the data. Bloomerang's 2026 Giving Signal report surveyed more than 1,000 active donors. 91% say people need more help than ever and 94% say give more. When they know exactly where their gift goes, the generosity is there. What's changed isn't the impulse to give. It's what donors need from you to say yes. The question is whether your organization is listening. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose. To help you understand your donors, to help you act on the right signals, and most importantly, to help you raise more. Download the free 2026 Giving Signal report@bloomerang.com that's bl o o m E R A N G And now on to the episode.
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B
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confident your voice definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a non profit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place.
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C
Let's get started.
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B
Hi everyone.
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C
Welcome and welcome back to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Today we're going to talk a challenge that a lot of nonprofit leaders feel very unprepared to handle and that is people problems at their organization. So we know. I mean, at least I know in my work with nonprofits, many, many executive directors step into leadership roles because they're passionate about the mission, but not because they've been formally trained to navigate conflict and performance issues. Difficult conversations. But we know these issues can quickly consum a leader's time and damage morale. So today I'm sitting down with Bernadette Jones, CEO and co founder of visionova HR Consulting, to discuss how nonprofit leaders can kind of address these issues before they escalate and give you some tips for your own organizational culture. So welcome to the podcast, Bernadette.
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D
Well, thank you so much, Julia. It's a pleasure to be here.
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C
So how did you get into the work that you do today? And like Specifically working with nonprofits in this area.
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D
Well, I started HR to support our own family business and our employees. And that's how I got into HR and just had a passion for it and then knew whenever I had the opportunity to do it full time, I would. And so one of my first clients was a nonprofit in Vallejo and I worked on the board. I was a board of on the board. And then also I supported them with their HR needs. And from that point on, I just developed a passion for working with mission driven organizations. And that was way back in the early 2000, 2001. And so from that love, I got certified with just to Cal State Hayward to Human Resource Management. And so moving forward, that is the focus of our clients. The majority of our clients, about 75% are nonprofits.
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C
Oh, that's great. What unique challenges do you see in nonprofits as opposed to your different. Your other clients or small business clients?
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D
Yes, there are some unique challenges. So one of them is that nonprofit leaders are carrying this big mission and they have limited HR support like most small business, but because they're, you know, they've been promoted because of their passion, their results, but not necessarily because they know how to handle complex people issues. And one of the things that I've really run into with nonprofits is there's a lot of avoidance because everybody is here to do this great work and everybody, you know, is dedicated. They feel everyone's dedicated. And so they don't want to damage the mission or the, the, the work that they're doing by dealing with these difficult issues. And so they're avoided and just hoping that they'll go away. Everybody's here for the same thing, so those issues will just disappear.
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C
I see the avoidance issue a lot. And when I was working as a development director, just constantly, you know, running into that, that one employee or maybe two that were always just incredibly negative and like bringing everyone down wasn't addressed because like you said, they've been here forever. They're doing the work, they're committed to the mission, they have institutional knowledge. Even if they're not a team player, you know, we probably can't replace them. So these are all the issues that I see. So what are the signals that these kinds of employee issues, like, are no longer just something that is not going to really sort of poison the well, but they're becoming an organizational risk.
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D
Yes, yes. And so that's important. I found myself doing this same work over and over and over again. Is it really a people issue? And so what I use is a framework I call the people problem triage. And it gives you a structured way to kind of decide what's really going on. That's the first thing you want to do. So that triage is what is really going on and what's responsible. What's a responsible next step? So determine what's going on. Is it impacting your culture? Is it impacting your clients or participants? Might it be compliance and legal, or is it a leadership and process issue? So you really want to kind of drill down and figure that out before you make a decision, because oftentimes what we think is a people issue is a process issue or is a leadership decision that's been avoided and hasn't been made, and so unclear processes will definitely develop difficult employees.
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C
So I really like the framework. If we could talk about it more. So how is it implemented? If I just want to start implementing it at my organization?
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D
Yes.
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C
What's the first step and the next step?
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D
So I start off with these three triage questions. What kind of issue is this first? So that could look like. So before I act, I ask about, is it skill, clarity, behavior, leadership, or is it a risk? So that's the first question. You want to triage those questions because it's going to determine the priority and how. What your next step is. So first, what is it? What kind of issue is it? And that's going to help you drill down to, is it really a people problem?
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B
Mm.
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D
And then so the skill part of that is, can they really do what it is you're asking them to do? Maybe that it's a skill issue. Then there's a clarity gap. Did we ever really clearly defy what good work looks like? What does this role look like? And then if it's a behavior problem, they know how to do it, they just don't want to do it, or they're undermining others and making it difficult. Now, the leadership is where it becomes a little more difficult sometimes for us to see. So is it a leadership or system issue? So is it our structure, our communication, our processes that might be driving the problem? And then the last thing is, is there a compliance risk? So is it. Does it involve policy, protected classes, safety? Right. So that's how you. What's going on first? And then what's the impact? Is it cultural? Is it on our actual clients, participants? And then what you can think about is, when I see a pattern, ask if that continues more than six months, if it continues more than six months, what's going to be the impact on the team and our clients. And then the last question is what response belongs first? So the question is about how to. It's not about like, how do I avoid this situation and hope it go away. It's what's the most responsible step to take right now? Is it coaching, clarity, boundaries and expectations, structure and process, or is it HR and legal support? So those three questions, what is it? What's the impact? And what response belongs first?
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C
I think that makes complete sense because sometimes it's like you said, you might think it's a behavioral issue, but it's actually just a process issue, or there's a technology problem, or there's a co worker problem, or. And it might not be a skills issue. It might just be. It might be something else. So getting, getting to the bottom of it. Where do sort of like performance reviews fit into this? And I've seen nonprofits do performance reviews, but they also use them as kind of like a mental health review as well. So not just this is the work, but how do you, how do you convince people this is important to do when they're probably uncomfortable asking people personal questions?
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D
Yeah. And one of the reasons that performance reviews are so difficult, not only for the recipients, but for the managers and supervisors who are giving those performance review, is that it's once a year, often. And so you try to cram everything from the entire year into one performance review, and it just stresses everybody out. There's it. Sometimes it's not accurate because what happened at the beginning of the year is forgotten. And you may just be focusing on the last recency, the last couple months, where there may have been a struggle. So it feels really unfair. So what we really consult with our clients on is setting up a feedback process that every week, preferably, but if not every week, every month there is a brief meeting, feedback meeting. And we're not talking about long drawn out. It could be 10, 15 minutes or even less, where there's a touch base, what's working well, what needs improvement, and how can I support you? And if you focus on just those three things and not bring in a lot of other things, you can really get a lot done. And so when you have those conversations, you want to make sure that you document that you write those things down. So at the end of the year, you have, if you've done it once a month, you have 12 documents that talks about what was working well, what needed improvement, and what support you provided to help them reach those goals. So it's much easier to compile that performance review with 12 pieces of real feedback in the moment than it is to wait. And so the thing about that is that it allows opportunity to have conversation about what needs improvement, not just what needs improvement for the employee. But then how can I support you from the manager organizational standpoint? So what needs improvement on that side so you can provide that. That support. And now that's able. You're able to see what actually happened during the year. And then people get used to giving feedback and hearing it, and so they're not so defensive. It's like a muscle. It's a muscle. And we're not taught how to give feedback. A lot of times that people can actually hear. We certainly have an issue. We're human, and so we get defensive. So we need to be trained to, you know, that's natural, be defensive, but not allow that to get in the way of the feedback and where you could actually make improvement. And so if you hear it more often, I get used to it. I'm okay. But if the only time I hear feedback is when I'm doing something wrong, then I'm going to block it. It's going to go in one ear and out the other. Because I don't think you have my best interest at heart. If you could only tell me what I'm doing wrong.
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C
What if you have a problem with a coworker? How do you think that should be handled? Should you, for the people listening, you know, should. Should they try to handle it, like you said, maybe giving some constructive feedback, or should they take it to the higher ups to deal with it? Because sometimes that will escalate it.
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D
Yes, that, that is so true. And so part of this, part of what we really focus on is building those feedback muscles. So not only are managers, supervisors comfortable with getting and receiving, but our team members are. And that has to be demonstrated. So the managers have to practice that so that individuals can see. Okay. It's okay to reach out and say, can I share something with you? Oftentimes it's how we phrase that feedback and phrasing it from a standpoint of getting clarity. So you might say something like, I'm not sure if you noticed, but, you know, when I came in to the room, you spoke to everyone but me. And I don't know if you noticed that. Okay, so leaving it open so you allow people to explain themselves and, you know, say, no, that was not my intent. About 75, 80% of the time when you phrase it something like that, people say, that wasn't my intent. You know, I didn't Mean it, maybe they were thinking about something else or whatever. And if it is their intent, then that's going to bring it to their attention and you can find out maybe what's actually going on. But when you give the feedback, it's not about emotion, is factual. When I came into the room, actually, you spoke to everyone but me. Not you disrespected me. You always ignore me because that's going to, you know, people are going to come back. No, I don't, I don't always ignore you, you know, but if you say when I came into the room today, you spoke to everyone with, that's a fact.
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C
And you can't argue with the fact.
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D
You can't argue with the fact. So it's learning those techniques, how to phrase feedback that people can hear, you know, and not just come in and you know, you just respected me and you go into this whole tirade, or even if it's not a tirade, it's just accusatory. So assume positive intent. And that's why you're asking the question, did you notice that or could you tell me what was going on for you in that moment? You know, so you, you phrase your, your feedback that way and now you allow someone to give their response and say whatever it is you know, that was going on for them at that time.
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C
So training, training and flexing that muscle. It's been so long since I had coworkers or a boss. I certainly have clients, I have people that hire me. But it's so interesting to think back to the days of working with some very, very difficult bosses and some very challenging co workers. You talk about culture and compliance rising and falling together. So what does that mean in practice?
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D
Well, what it means is oftentimes I hear people and they feel like, you know, if you have a compliant culture that's so rigid in corporate, especially non profits, and if you want a great culture, then you have to relax all of that. And so there is a middle ground culture. Good culture supports compliance and compliance can support a good culture. Because when you think about it, as employers and employees, we have rights and responsibilities and that's compliance. Right. So your rights, that's part of compliance. So I can't have a good culture if I don't know what your rights are as an employee and what my responsibilities are as an employer. So they support each other and you don't want to say one for the other. So one of the things I've seen in nonprofits, it's we don't want to be Corporate. And so there's less management, there's fewer policies. When you have fewer policies, it always requires more management because there's a confusion. It's confusion. And every time you make a decision or someone comes to you with a decision, you're remaking that decision over and over. You're deciding what seem arbitrary and discriminatory.
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A
Right?
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D
It's going to seem discriminatory if one person was able to take a 30 day personal leave and someone else wasn't. Right. If you have a policy around say a 30 day personal leave that is not about medical vacations, just somebody needs some time off. If you have a policy, yes, we grant leaves of absence up to 30 days. And here is what's required to qualify for that leave of absence versus Susan comes and asks me and we say yes. And then, you know, four months later Brad asks and it's a much busier time and things happen and Brad is told no. So now we're looking at policies or decisions that may seem discriminatory or arbitrary. And so I think that's a huge problem. So we need those policies and compliance so that our culture can, we can keep a really good culture and be mission driven versus chaos.
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C
And people really appreciate like, like Brene Brown says, clear is kind. You know, clear is kind to. Because then you can look up the policy and say, okay, I have this many half days. I have this much. Interestingly, I was just in Italy at a fundraising conference and they have a burnout program. It's literally, I don't remember what the word is in Italian, but they, the nonprofit sector through the government grant. If you are burned out and stressed out and overwhelmed, you can apply for this grant to take like a 30 day leave or a 6 month leave. I think, oh my gosh, Americans need to do that.
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A
But we will never, we will never do that.
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C
But I do believe in policies because I feel, you know, if I'm a mom and I know when I was working in an organization I was younger and I didn't have kids yet, so I didn't understand. But I did notice that the people that were parents, you know, they were not expected to work on weekends and they were not expected to work at 8 till 8pm them and having those clear policies about maybe why that was or an explanation of it or just something so that the younger employees or the childless or the, you know, people, maybe they have aging parents but not kids, you know, there, there need to be. There's so many people are just so complicated and so fraught. Oh, I Want to ask you a question around just the level of polarization right now with human beings. And like I said, I have not worked in a workplace with employees every single day. But my husband is seeing this a lot where he works and I so many friends that are seeing this where they work, where there's just complete shutdown of communication based on politics or based on just polarization of current events. Are there any tips you can give give us for how to handle that?
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D
Yes, there are. In fact, I did a talk at SHRM National 2024 on Polarizing Political conversations in the workplace and how to navigate those. So the first thing is to think about the fact that it's going to happen. So we don't want it to happen, but something around that polarization is going to happen in the workplace. So create a policy just to say, for instance, what's appropriate conversation in our workplace?
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C
Right.
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D
So if you are a nonprofit and you're working on advocacy, so maybe political conversations are okay right in your workplace, but if you are not, maybe that's good, that's causing issues already. And so you want to get in front of it and just talk about what kinds of things are are appropriate in the workplace. Some of that happens when you do the required, at least in California and a few other states that require harassment and discrimination prevention training. So you have some language around what's appropriate in the workplace and what is not. If you don't have that, think about that. What is our culture, what are we seeing in the workplace that may be creating issues? What can we anticipate may be creating issues and then just have a brief policy around, you know, what's appropriate conversation. And if someone does not want to have the conversation, that you cannot force it. So if a team members want to have a conversation, they can have that conversation. You may not have it in front of other people where it may be caused tension, but if someone wants to back out of a conversation, do not push it. And so you want to have a policy around that. What the expectation is when someone says, I don't want to talk about that, or if there is escalating conversations and arguments that needs to be addressed, it should not be ignored. It needs to be addressed and folks need to be called in and said, you know, this conversation is inappropriate for the workplace or we don't want you to have that conversation because it is causing friction and we've had elevated voices. It's impacting other team members. But you have to have those conversations. And the First Amendment freedom of speech is Not a thing in a private workplace that's for the government and in the public. But in a private workplace you can definitely determine what is appropriate, inappropriate. You still have to respect people's rights. So there are certain things that you have to allow conversation about wages, workplace conditions. You can't say, you can't talk about that because that could prevent people from unionizing if they want to. But we're talking about non work related conversations. You can definitely say we will not be discussing the election in this workplace because it has created issues and controversy. So as a private workplace, we need to really think about protecting the rights and responsibilities of all employees.
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C
I know, that's so interesting. There's so many different personalities and so many different ways that people handle, you know, this kind of polarization and these kind of topics. So something else that I see is non profits protecting and tolerating problematic behavior from high performers. So maybe a founder or maybe a really great, you know, not a great, but maybe a, not a great person, but a great fundraiser or a board member, that's problematic. But they are donating $10,000 a year. How, you know, what's the long term cost of that and how can we navigate that?
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D
Yes, the long term cost is huge because you're going to lose multiple good people because of that one person. So we can, we don't want to say, oh, she's just like that. She's just like that.
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C
Boys will be boys.
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D
Yes. And so we ignore that. And what that says to the rest of the team is, you're not that important. We have to walk around this person because they're a great performer, they're great fundraiser. So everybody has to adapt around that one person. So that is a culture killer. So whatever culture you're trying to develop and mission that you're driving, it's going to be diminished by the tolerance of that behavior and that and performance or behavior. So one thing I always say is never ignore poor behavior. Poor performance, it will not correct itself. You have to step in. And then that's going to let everyone know that we are all important. Not just the donor, the big donor or the fundraiser. And I share an example about this. I had one nonprofit client and they had a director who was just so passionate about her program. And she was tenacious, she was going to get those funds. Right. She was really, really good. But that's the way she was with her team members. She was tenacious, she was going to get what she wanted. And so that same attitude, it just alienated everyone because she Wouldn't stop until she got what she wanted. And in her mind, she's collaborating, but no, she was just forcing it. And really it became a bullying situation. Oh, man. Yeah. And so tolerating that behavior, we had to have a conversation about this is what's going on and why the rest of the team is not performing and pulling back. Nobody wants to deal with her. And so that's something you have to address because it does impact the culture and the entire team. No one's that valuable.
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C
I just. I wish you could have talked to several of my bosses throughout my life. I totally agree. So if an organization is really small and has no dedicated HR professionals, I think a lot of my listeners are in our smaller organizations. Where should an executive director start?
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D
And that's primarily our client base. There's 10 to 100 employees, no dedicated HR department or a department of one. And so part of the first part of that is looking at your culture and the foundation of the organization. So is the culture that you're building, is that intentional? Or has it just developed and has it developed around that one person that's kind of the over performer? And so things that kind of developed around that one person. So the first thing is your culture. You want that to be intentional because it's going to support your mission. It's going to attract the people that you need to support that mission. So be intentional about the culture that you're developing. Then also your foundation. So do you have your HR foundation in place? Because HR is about people. People run organizations. The mission is driven by people. And so you have to have your people policies in place. And it's going to protect the organization legally to be in compliance. So that foundation is going to support the culture, and the culture will support that foundation. So I think those are the first two things. Bring in an HR consultant. If you don't have anyone with HR background and you want to look at the consultant the same way, how would they support your culture? Is not just, okay, we need a handbook. Hire someone, they do a handbook. Oh, we need a policy that HR consultant should support the culture of the organization and should be setting the foundation based on that. Yeah. For 2026, there are so many new laws that affect organizations that have one employee. So we often think, I'm too small. You are not too small. Your first employee. And there. There are compliance issues in 2026, there's brand new ones. So we really have to be aware because that one complaint, or it doesn't even have to be a complaint, it could Be an audit, an agency audit by edd. It can cost you tens of thousands of dollars in fines. I've seen it actually almost close the doors of a small nonprofit because of penalties.
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C
Oh, wow. I know. There's so much to think about. You just want to make sure you have all your ducks in a row. And I think this conversation is so important because I talk to a lot of people about technology and AI and social media and storytelling, marketing, but if the right people are not on the bus, you know, sort of like Jim Collins says in Good to Great, then the bus is not going to be going in the right direction. And, you know, the. The people, non profits are powered by people. Like, think of all the people that work in a nonprofit, from volunteers to staff, to like admin, you know, staff members. I just think it's very hard when you are. It's hard to create that culture where everyone's kind of working as one and working together towards that North Star, towards that vision, because everyone has their own deliverables, their own key performance indicators that they need to achieve things they need to do. So I'm thinking now for the fundraisers out there that want to be more connected to their co workers. So when I was a director of development, I actually, my first job was in an office completely away from everyone else, like literally in a different building. And I would have to physically try to go seek people out.
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D
There was no.
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C
There was no way for me to connect with staff members unless I actually got lunch with them or coffee or went to their office. So how can we as well the sector just create a more collaborative culture both within ourselves and with other organizations? I think that's the future.
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D
Yes, I think so too. I think one thing we really have to be conscious of is the remote work and not ever coming together are very rarely coming together. So people see the entire person. When we're in the little zoom window, we lose so much communication.
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A
Yes.
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D
Because so much of our communication is body language. It's all of those things that make us human. So when you're in this little box, you miss a lot of that. So there's misinterpretation. And then you're sending emails that are misinterpreted, that may not be, may not be clear text messages that are, you know, a few words here and there. And so since COVID we've just kind of isolated ourselves. Yeah. And so I think part of that is not that you need to give up remote work, but there needs to be opportunities, more opportunities for people to come Together and collaborate and actually work as a team. So I love remote work. I love that opportunity, you know, But I do feel that there needs to be more connection. So, you know, since COVID it's. It's like nobody wants to come out of their house. You know, we haven't gotten out of that mode to a big state. I mean, we used to come to work every day. And now if you ask someone to come in for a meeting once a month, it's an issue. It's a huge issue. And so that needs to change. It should be part of our culture, you know, and that's the way we're going to get to know each other and be more collaborative and more tolerant of people. You know, right now I could just turn off my screen, I could turn off my camera, and I don't have to deal with anybody.
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C
I know, I know.
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A
It's so crazy.
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C
What gives you hope right now?
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D
Well, I think I'm going to say something in.
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C
Sure.
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D
That people may not agree with, but AI and I say that because it can free us up from so many mundane tasks.
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C
Oh, exactly.
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D
That we have more time that we can collaborate. We can spend better quality time in the work if we use it Right. And of course, it's like every piece of technology, there's, there's going to be some good things, there are going to be some bad things, you know, that we have to deal with. So I'm not saying that it's all good, but I am saying used. Right. It can free up our time so that we are not focused on the mundane tasks that keep us so bogged down that, you know, we, you know, can't raise our head to actually collaborate and do more productive, higher judgment, higher level work. Yeah. And that's the way I see AI. So I think that is very encouraging.
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C
I see that too. And I. This is what I tell my listeners and a lot of my clients is, yeah, it's how. It's all about how you use it. You know, you could use the phone for. For evil. You could use the Internet for evil. So there's. It's just all in how you use it and your intention. And it just comes back to, yeah, what. What do you want to achieve at the end of the day? What kind of person? What are your values? What are your ethics? And how are you using it to actually just create that white space that we all need to do that bigger picture thinking? So where can people connect with you, Bernadette? Learn more about you and your consulting business?
- [35:36]
D
Sure. You can Connect with me via our website, which is visionova hr.com I'm very active on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is a great place to reach out. And then we, we operate by telephone. People can call me 510-510-243-5254. That's our local number and answer it. So a number of different ways. And yes, please reach out. We can just be a sounding board, help you think some things out too.
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C
I love that the phone number. I don't think a single guest has given a phone number on my podcast in like the four years I've been doing it.
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D
So I love that.
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C
I know a lot of people appreciate talking to a person and getting a person on the phone when it's just so very rare these days. So thank you so much. This was fascinating. I learned a lot. This is not a topic that I've talked about on the podcast. So thanks for coming on and and sharing your expertise.
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D
Well, thank you so much for the invitation and I enjoyed it.
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B
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.