← Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Nonprofit Nation with Julia Campbell
Transforming Lives Through Water Equity with Shilpa Alva
00:35:12
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- [00:00]
Bloomerang Representative
What if we named things for what they're not? We'd give teachers non oranges and fly non cars. That sounds ridiculous, right? So why is your world changing organization called a nonprofit? The truth is you are for purpose and the more you raise, recruit and retain, the more good you can do. That's where Bloomerang comes in. Bloomerang's giving platform is built for purpose with easy to use tools and powerful insights that will help you understand your donors better than ever and unleash even more generosity. Imagine spending less time on admin tasks and more time on what matters your mission. Bloomerang customers raise an average of 26% more. Are you ready to join them? Then just visit jcsocialmarketing.com forward/bloomerang to learn more and start making an even bigger impact. That's jcsocialmarketing.com B L O O M E R A N G let's get to the episode.
- [01:15]
Julia Campbell
Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the Nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.
- [02:04]
Hi everyone. I'm so excited to have you here for this episode of Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell and today I'm joined by Shilpa Alva, the visionary founder of Surge for Water, which is a woman led, woman centered nonprofit dedicated to providing marginalized global communities with access to safe water, sanitation, hygiene and menstrual health solutions. And under Shilpa's leadership, Surge has impacted over 1 million lives and created more than 2,000 community jobs while advancing sustainable water equity across the globe. I am thrilled to have you here, Shilpa. Welcome to the podcast.
- [02:48]
Shilpa Alva
Thank you for having me.
- [02:50]
Julia Campbell
So you have an interesting journey to becoming a nonprofit founder. Can you share a little bit about how you moved from engineering and corporate consulting to founding Search for Water? What inspired you?
- [03:03]
Shilpa Alva
You know, as a founder, I often get asked this question and so I've reflected on it quite a bit and I always share that my journey started, you know, actually as a very young child. I was born and raised in Dubai but being of Indian origin, my parents really had no childcare for us when we were growing up in Dubai. So what it meant in summer holidays was that we would travel to India with extended family and with my grandmother actually, and was doing this at eight months old. So super young child going to India, playing with cousins and neighbors and just like having this experience that was quite special and really shaped who I am today. On one of these trips around like the age of 7 years old was the first time that I noticed or actually triggered, was triggered by sites of poverty on the streets of Mumbai. And it's those early images that have stayed with me and continue to like, shape who I was as I was growing up. The questions I asked, the questions about privilege, you know, why I had certain things and some of the people I saw in those early experiences did not and continue to see over my travels with my family and just our summer travels. And so fast forward, here I am, you know, I moved to the United States to go to university. I study engineering. And just as a, you know, good Indian child, I was raised to think that I had a few career options. Doctor, lawyer and engineer. So it was kind of chosen for me in many ways. I chose chemical engineering, biomolecular and chemical engineering and started to work in the corporate world in a field sort of parallel to it. I was actually in supply chain, but was sort of the liaison between R and D and manufacturing. And so I used my engineering degree, moved into consulting and I was in this corporate world. And while I was doing really well in this space and continue to get promoted, I actually moved into management consulting and started to like really figure myself out and my role and build my career in this corporate world using my engineering degree, building my business skills. But as all of this was happening in parallel, that young seven year old child in me kept sort of knocking on the door, if you want to call it that, and saying that this was not my purpose, that there was something else that I needed to be doing and that I had the gifts and the privilege and the network to be able to do it. So it's a little bit more philosophical of a response, but really it's that inspiration of like growing up in this environment, seeing poverty, recognizing privilege and then making that choice to use it to be able to do something good in the world. It doesn't automatically mean you go start a nonprofit. That's a, I guess a different story. But those were like the initial thoughts of like why I wanted to use my skills to be doing something in service of others.
- [06:19]
Julia Campbell
And I want to talk about sort of the, the issue that surge for water is focused on and then maybe your like, unique approach. So water equity is a very urgent global issue, as we know. But what are some common, maybe misconceptions that people have about this issue?
- [06:39]
Shilpa Alva
Most of our donor base are in situations where water is not an issue in their lives. And in many cases they may not even realize that there is a global water crisis.
- [06:50]
Julia Campbell
True. Because we just turn on the faucet and.
- [06:54]
Shilpa Alva
Exactly. So most people don't even realize. And if they do, the numbers are so big that they may not even be something you can relate to. So if you hear something like 4 billion people don't have a toilet in their homes, like, what does that mean? Can you even understand that? It's just so large. Right. Or 2 billion don't have water. So even if people hear the statistics, I think we're at least for our donor base and like a lot of the supporters we have or in general, when I met speaking engagements, a lot of the people were talking to can't really grasp what that means. And it is a very hard thing to grasp. Right. That there's just billions of people right now who don't have water in their homes and don't have toilets and don't have soap to wash their hands or menstrual products. Like all of these things are such high numbers of people impacted. So I don't know if it's a. It's something misunderstood. It's just. It's just a really hard thing to grasp.
- [07:52]
Julia Campbell
It's really hard to grasp. I lived in Senegal. I lived in a really small village for a little over two years because I was in the Peace Corps and we had no running water and no electricity. And that was obviously a huge shock to me.
- [08:09]
Shilpa Alva
Yeah.
- [08:10]
Julia Campbell
But I. I think unless you live in that or experience it, it's impossible to really understand, like, how hard it is, first of all to pull water from a well. And we were even lucky that we had a well in our village.
- [08:24]
Shilpa Alva
Yeah.
- [08:25]
Julia Campbell
That had safe water in it. So that was even one more step of luck because there are so many places in the world that don't even have that. And women and children and people have to walk, you know, dozens of miles to get safe water. How do you make this vision and mission come to life for your donors? Like, how do you explain it in a way that they can understand? What kind of, you know, storytelling do you do?
- [08:51]
Shilpa Alva
That's still a work in process and actually that's a perfect Question for right now because we are currently going through our whole new, like, brand refresh overall process.
- [09:00]
Julia Campbell
Like, oh, I have a storytelling book that I wrote so I can send it to you.
- [09:04]
Shilpa Alva
I would love that. Yeah. Because, you know, we constantly don't think we're doing justice to the stories. I think it's really hard to tell them the way we do. Our work keeps evolving and we need to keep improving. And to me, the most important thing is to stay true to the people that we're serving. Right. Are we telling their stories that we've been gifted with in many ways. Right. Like in the most respectful way and are we ensuring that their voices are being represented properly versus it being sort of donor centric? So for us, the storytelling part is more on the communities and how do we capture those stories in a way that, yes, communicates the need, but does so in the most ethical way of ensuring that the person, the program participant, is fully respected for their role in solving the issue. And I think that really also connects really well to how we do our work. Right. So when we talk about the. How it's quite easy to see in Serge's process how the woman primarily is the center of the solution and the leader of her own change. So that in itself, right. Brings respect. It's no longer about just a poor person in Africa because that's like, you know, the. Just the language and what's out there. Right. Like when you see images of people without water and issues. But we're trying to tell the story of like, yeah, there are incredible women in all these communities around the world that we work in who are leaders of their own change. Right. And are ensuring that they bring water sanitation, hygiene to their community. So that's the story we're trying to tell. I still don't know if we're doing it in the most effective way, which is why we're going through this whole brand refresh exercise. So work in process. But we're very conscious of needing to tell our story in continuously better way. Right. The changing times and things like that.
- [11:09]
Julia Campbell
So tell me about the brand refresh. I just think that would be really interesting for a lot of people listening. A lot of my listeners are work in marketing or fundraising or leadership in non profit roles. And I'm sure their ears perked up because maybe they're thinking of doing that. What kind of led to that? And. And what are some reasons that you decided to go through this sort of brand refresh?
- [11:32]
Shilpa Alva
For us, we, like many other nonprofits, there are never budgets to do These kinds of things. Right. Almost everything that you raise has to go to raising more money and using that money for programs. Right. So to have the luxury to be able to even do a marketing program and do a brand refresh is such a gift to begin with. So I recognize that with other nonprofit leaders who might be listening, we just went through a process of building our 2030 impact strategy or program strategy over the summer last year. And once that was done, our messaging or how we were doing our work really shifted. It was elevated in a way. Right. We were able to visualize or build a framework in a way that we've never been able to before. And it was really impressive to us internally, and I was so proud of it. And then I even start sharing with my board members, and they're like, well, this is really technical. Like, I don't think people can understand this. Like, oh, wow. Like, this doesn't seem that technical to me because I'm so close to it. Right. It was those kinds of conversations that made me realize that we can have this great vision, which are, you know, our partners and the communities we work in helped inform and, you know, we're so beautifully put together. But the way we were telling the story took a lot of explanation for people to get it. And that's not okay. Right. Because that's not going to convert to donations unless someone has a lot of time to spend with me and can feel the passion and ask all those questions. But it's not the quick marketing story, it's not the storytelling that you were referring to.
- [13:06]
Julia Campbell
And quick win, sort of. Yeah, I think a lot of people can relate to that.
- [13:11]
Shilpa Alva
Yeah. And so we have this beautiful vision. We have this, like, phased approach. And, you know, even now, if you asked me to explain it, it's going to take me a long time and hopefully you would get the message and, you know, so just not my skill set. It's not. We have some board members who could be their skill set, but they've got daytime jobs and they, you know, it's going to be a big lift to be able to shift the way we speak. So that was one of the main motivators. And I will say the other motivator is we've been learning a lot in the last, like, four to five years about really using the right language, like language, justice, decolonial practices, and really shifting the way we speak again to respect the communities we work in, the program participants. And that takes a long time to actually really incorporate into your website, your social media, the story that you're telling. Because now there'll still be some words that we shouldn't be using. Because I subscribe to Language justice and all of the other things I've been learning. And we need help to be getting to that place where I'm really proud of like taking that effort to ensure that our visual identity, our language, everything truly represents how we work. And that's not the case right now. Just because of time and resources. Right. Not because of a desire. That's the reason we're doing it. And I'm very excited to be in this process. We've just kicked it off two weeks ago.
- [14:41]
Julia Campbell
Continuing process. Right. It's not something you can sort of check off your to do list. It's always learning, iterating, changing, improving. But just being open to that I think is really important. But I. You do have time here to talk about your approach. You can take as much time as you need. I know that Search for Water does focus on this woman centered and community led approach. Can you tell me about some of your innovative solutions, some of the things you're most proud of in your approach?
- [15:10]
Shilpa Alva
Sure. I'd say that what I'm most proud of is just the basic elements of how we work, which is our programs are led by community leaders. They are micro, local to the communities that we're in. We're working in very remote rural areas around the world, often self described as forgotten lands. And in these communities we have identified amazing leaders who are already leaders in their community. And we are partnering with them to help them bring change to their, their people, right, Their villages, their neighbors, because they're from there and they truly understand the DNA, the social fabric. We prioritize women leaders, but we work with everybody. So that's one piece. So that's who we partner with. Everything is done from a partnership model. And then once we've established those partners, we're currently working in Indonesia, Haiti and Uganda, then it's about the delivery of the solution. So we're working in four areas. So it's holistic water, sanitation and hygiene. But the reason I say is because water is, you know, access, purification, sensitive drills, rainwater harvesting, whatever is really applicable to the situation at hand. Toilets right now, mostly because of funding, are focused more in schools and health centers. We're not doing household toilets at this point. Hygiene is the education around hygiene and how to keep your environment clean after the solutions have been implemented. And also things like soap making classes and soap production because we're working in areas where soap is a luxury and it's a lot cheaper to be able to provide raw materials, educate people how to make soap and maybe even turn it into a business. And the fourth pillar, which a lot of times in our space, gets sort of pulled into the hygiene space, but we don't like that because there's nothing unhygienic about menstruation. So we put that in its own pillar and we call it menstrual health. And in that space, we are working with adolescent girls, educating them on the changes in their body, trying to address stigma and taboo, and also educating on production of like menstrual reusable menstrual pads. So when you put all of those together, like, we truly believe that that's a way to address the grassroots situation. And even the way I just described it right now, Julia, is quite like, let's just say transactional, right? Like water, sanitation, hygiene and menstrual health. But in the last few months on this new impact strategy we've been working on, we're starting to look at things in sort of a three phased approach. So the first phase, and it's all centered around the women and girls. So I should say that first. And so at the very first phase, if you almost want to think of this as like a ladder going up, the first phase is about infrastructure. So it's providing the physical resources needed, right? Your physical, well, rainwater tank, your toilet, hand washing station, et cetera. So then you go, the basic needs are fulfilled. The second phase, a little bit higher up on that, on that ladder, when you're talking about achieving sustainable development goals, like gender equity, for example, is the education. Now, yes, I mentioned hygiene and menstrual health education. But through those education programs, we're also addressing the larger societal norms and taboos that are restricting women and girls from being part of leadership roles and advocating for their own solutions as it relates to what we do. And there have been studies out there that show that that's actually one of the biggest limitations, just the cultural environment that these girls and women are in. So through our education programs that are teaching hand washing and making soap, we're also addressing this, this critical layer of cultural norms through the system that we're not coming in as outsiders and saying, oh, you've got to do something different. We're definitely doing it through what can be done and what the locals say is possible through the knowledge that they have of their own communities. And then the third phase, which is sort of like the final phase, which means like, okay, we've achieved that, we're successful in these communities that we're in is market based enterprises and leadership programs. So what we are recognizing from doing this work from a long time said, you read all this literature and you'll see all of these studies that show if you provide water then you can increase income. Because now a woman doesn't have to collect water and she can get a job. Of course that's true because the time has been saved. But what happens if she was never given those skills? If there was no opportunity, right. Or she was in a society that did not allow her, even if you had all of this access to get these extra, you know, soft skills or these things that you need to be able to succeed. And so as a final stage of like development and sort of a gift to the community, in the end it's about how do we ensure that our partners are self sustainable and also creating enterprises for women. And that's from an enterprise perspective. That's the part that would allow us to get into household solutions related to our work. Which to do that and to speak to achieve that through philanthropy is quite hard. And we also don't believe that that's necessarily the way to do it. So that has to be something that can be purchased, right? A toilet for a home, things like that. And how do you create a revenue stream for the local community, for business women in that, in, in these environments. And then the leadership program where actually, but we already started this part, we're working with some of the girls, a segment of the girls that go through our menstrual health program and they go through a leadership training and they were really working again with peer to peer leadership models. We're partnering with an organ India called the Milan foundation and they have an incredible program called the Girl Icon program. So we piloted last year in Uganda and this year we're rolling it out in a bigger way. We're hoping that by sort of dealing with this in like different phases and being really mindful at each phase about like what the outcome should be and in the end the impact that we can drive like true transformational change in these communities that we're in and then be able to leave and have them be independent too. Right. That's the end goal.
- [21:33]
Julia Campbell
I love that and I really love what you said about menstrual health being in the education category and not in the hygiene category. And I think that's so important because it's not unhygienic, it just is. It's something that we need potentially more education on. And like you said Cultural norms. That's really interesting. I, I think that's a fantastic approach. So for you as a leader, as a woman, as a woman of color, like, what challenges have you faced leading a global non profit and sort of what advice do you have for other women leaders in the space?
- [22:07]
Shilpa Alva
I remember a trip in Uganda when I was in a community in a very patriarchal, patriarchal led community, I would say, with some men on our partner team and the local leaders. And I'm also actually quite short and so the local leaders like basically couldn't even see me. They're like, wait, where is she? And they were like pointing down at me. They're like this, like here she is. They're like her, this one. Like it's a woman. Like very open about like their surprise about the partner, the thunder in their mind, right. Being a woman. So you know, there have been those kinds of situations many, many times. And it really depends on the society and the culture of the society and whether it's patriarchal or not. And most of them are, I would say in the early days that was quite tough from, you know, just working in the communities that we're in. But now because we've sort of built the trust and we've centered and elevated and helped uplift so many women and we've not left men behind. Right. They're definitely part of the program. They're employed by us. Like they're also benefiting from the toilets and the, and the wells and our models being more understood in these communities that there's a different type of relationship now. So I don't feel it anymore. Also the newest community we're in is four years, so we don't have anything brand new. And I definitely felt it four years ago in Indonesia. I feel it less now. So I always think that there's that initial phase and then we just do the work and do it well and are very respectful. Right. In Indonesia and the community we work in, again, very male dominated. And we're respecting that. We're respecting the social structures of the just of how the community functions. But then we're ensuring that the women's voices can be heard in the most respectful way. So I'll give you an example. Like when we have a community meeting with like just say like the local village government in Indonesia, it's mostly the men, I would say almost sometimes 100% the men, right. That show up and the women are there, but they're in the kitchen cooking. If you ask, even if you ask the women to join the meeting they don't feel comfortable because they're not used to these settings. And so initially we're like, yes, please, women, join the meetings. Be part of this. And it wasn't working, and it doesn't work because it's not part of their social fabric. So the way to get to the way to solve it, I would say, and the way we have solved it is the women on our team. After the meeting with, you know, with the village leaders, who are predominantly male, they asked if they can speak with the woman, you know, help in the kitchen, Right. And then we asked for a conversation with them. And we do it in a very gentle way that doesn't intimidate anyone, doesn't break down any power structures, because we're not trying to do that. We also want to respect what's happening and like, you know, generations and decades of cultural nuances that are in the different places, but at the same time work within that structure. So it's those, I know you asked about me, but it's like the same thing that affects everything that we do. But just so mindful of, because I've experienced it, right? So I've navigated these roles about how do I use the existing structure, but figure out how I can fit into it and then almost work it from within. Because once you're within and you're talking to the women, we got all the answers we need. We got the real story from the people. People actually collect the water. That's what we wanted. But we. We can't say we can't do that in the first layer of the conversation because it doesn't work. It's just not how the society works. And that's. Using that story is actually like how I've worked in this environment, like, really building the trust, getting in, building the strong relationships, being respected as a person. And then, oh, yeah, she's a woman. That's okay.
- [25:54]
Julia Campbell
I mean, my experience in the Peace Corps, that's really what I can speak to. But we spend the first year of service building trust. We are not allowed to take on any new projects because, of course, we go in and we think, oh, my gosh, we're going to do all this stuff. We're going to, you know, build a well and build a school and do all these things. But we have to spend the very. The first full year getting to know the customs, getting to know the people, getting to know the language, getting to know. We just have to spend a year doing sort of research, gathering. And I think it's so valuable to do that because without trust, these solutions are going to be Band Aids and they're not going to be adapted and they're not going to be sustainable and embraced by the community. So that's so. I mean, I think for any nonprofit, building trust is just the number one pillar. I think it's so important. So let's talk about your long term vision for surge for water. Like what are you working towards? I know you said you have a plan for 2030.
- [26:58]
Shilpa Alva
Yes, that's correct.
- [27:00]
Julia Campbell
Is that your strategic plan?
- [27:02]
Shilpa Alva
Yeah, yeah, it's our 2030 strategy or impact plan. You know, when you introduced me, Julia, you talked about the fact that we've reached a million people. With that million people though, we've worked in 12 countries.
- [27:15]
Julia Campbell
Right.
- [27:15]
Shilpa Alva
And we're only active in three right now. I cannot say that that's a million people served daily. Right. Because we've left some of those countries. Some of the solutions were like water filters that last two to three years and then the community members have to buy products. So our model has changed over time. Now the way we work, we're in three countries, and within those three countries we're in four districts or sub areas within them. The way we're looking at it, we talked to all of our local partners. They were part of this conversation. We asked each of our partners in these three countries what their aspirations for growth were, and they shared them with us. They were aggressive, they were beautiful, bold, all of these things. And when we put that together, it ended up going from the four districts that we're in, which is serving about 300,000 people, to about 10 districts serving a million people. And the reason this million is a bit different than the one that was introduced earlier is that now the model is about holistic solutions for these million people. It doesn't mean that 100% of the people get water and toilets. Education. It's always going to be a subset because 100% is not a realistic goal. But the goals that we're achieving within that for these communities is in partnership with the local governments and their requirements and their expectations and desires or goals for their communities. Right. So Uganda has a different goal, Indonesia different. Haiti, a different one. So that's what we're working and that's what we've put into our plan at a granular level. Right. Like how many schools are in these areas, how many health centers and how can we ensure that, you know, from a toilet perspective. I'll just give you an example. We're saying that we actually want 100% of toilets in schools. So we did that math, and then we really started to build out our budgets from the ground up of like, okay, if we do this based on the different goals, like, water is like, I think an 80% goal. It's not 100% for multiple reasons. Education as a subset. And then that's what came together and built these numbers. And now we can look at, okay, here's what we need to do. Here's how much we need to raise. And it doesn't also mean that we need to do it all ourselves to serve these million people. We just mean that we're going to work hand in hand with our local partner and the local governments to get them the right resources, too. Right. To bring in other partners to figure out a way how to achieve this. But it doesn't have to be entirely us as well.
- [29:45]
Julia Campbell
Wow, that's amazing. That's just phenomenal. And what advice do you have for aspiring social entrepreneurs, people that potentially want to start their own nonprofit? What is maybe one. One or two pieces of advice you would give to them?
- [30:01]
Shilpa Alva
I would say that what's been more successful for me has been just listening and learning as the first step. And when I say this, it's not just about sort of the work. Everywhere we worked, and especially in the places we're active in right now, the very first days, the early, early days, Yes. I looked up the water statistics, right. And the sanitation statistics, and, you know, that that information was easy to find, but I started to read about, like, the history of those countries. Right. The effects of colonization, like, all the way back, like, centuries ago. Like, what happened here? Why are we in this situation? Like, really trying to come in, in the most respectful way. And I just say, like, no matter what you're doing in the space, we're working in social justice, and you're working in environments especially, you know. Yes, I'm a person of color, but I still grew up in Dubai and, like, studied in the United States and worked in the United States. So I'm still representing a western country. Right. So I'm not, you know, there are benefits of being a brown woman and working in this space for sure. And I. There are things I can understand in a different way at the same point, when I'm in these communities, I'm coming from the West. That's how I'm viewed. I'm very aware of that. So just being really humble about. I don't know a lot about this kind. And even till today, we work for. You know, we've been in uganda for over 10 years, Haiti even longer. And I'm still learning, right? And still coming in and being just really, really humble about that, about what we, what you don't know, I think will take you so far. That constant learning, to me, that's the biggest, biggest piece of advice. And the second piece of advice which is equally important is to build your tribe. You cannot do this alone. You absolutely cannot do this alone. And find your tribe, Find the people who, you know, you trust, trust you who have your back, willing to go the extra mile. No one will stay with you forever. If you're a founder, you will have that lonely journey, but you can make it less lonely by, you know, finding the marketing expert, the development person, the all the different skills that you need for a non profit. I mean that's been huge. The number of people, the number of volunteers, you know, because we don't have, we're still a small org. We have a tiny staff from most of our staff that are in the countries that we work in and doing the work, you know, on the ground. But outside of that, there's like two of us, right? So we don't like everything else is, is a team of experts that are putting in their time pro bono. So many companies that have given us pro bono services and that's been huge in like helping us achieve, helping me achieve my personal vision, then obviously helping the org and pushing me, right, to think bigger. The reason I even developed a strategic plan is because one of my board members challenged me and was like, hey, where are we going next? This isn't clear. I'm like, you're right because we've achieved everything we've said. And I was like, but I need help to do this. He's like, I'll help you, but we need to, you know, this isn't like we need more, right? So like people who challenge me and keep me going, but also support me in that journey. Right. So I think that's significant to the success that Surge has had, the success I'd have.
- [33:11]
Julia Campbell
Wow, that's phenomenal. Thank you so much for sharing that. And how can our listeners support Surge for Water? Connect with you online and learn more about your organization.
- [33:23]
Shilpa Alva
Well, we're on all the social channels at Search for Water and you can connect with me personally on LinkedIn. And then our website is searchforwater.org and definitely watch that space because if you look at it right now, you'll see that old website. If you look at it in three months, you'll see your new website. Right? So you'll see our new our brand refresh be live and we're very excited about that space changing and reflecting more of, you know, who we are today.
- [33:50]
Julia Campbell
I love that and I really appreciate you being here, Shilpa. I can't imagine being a founder, you know, having so much on your plate. And just thank you for your generosity and your willingness to share your expertise with my listeners.
- [34:04]
Shilpa Alva
Thank you for having me, Julia, and for your thoughtfulness in the questions too, and the conversation.
- [34:15]
Julia Campbell
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make.
- [34:25]
Sure to subscribe to the show in.
- [34:26]
Your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unic.