D (2:50)

Yeah, of course. So it's really full circle. Joining the team at Chariot. I've been here for over two and a half years. But going in the way back machine, 10 years ago when I was an investment banker at Goldman Sachs, which feels like a different lifetime, I actually had my first real introduction to the nonprofit fundraising world as a participant in a peer to peer bike ride. So I joined Cycle for the Cause, which is the northeast AIDS ride from Boston to New York. I had an uncle who we lost aids and my dad and I actually joined that together. And I sent my first email out to a bunch of coworkers and one of the partners I worked with donated $10,000 from the staff. And my first reaction was to reach out to him and ask if he made a mistake because I didn't like didn't know people like gifts that big happened. Like it was very naive. And that is when he explained to me, oh no, I have this donor advised fund. Like I've set funds aside there and it's like more efficient way to give. And actually all of the senior partners at Goldman have this tool as part of their compensation package. So then I was thinking, well then I want to fundraise from them, right? And so I constructed a specific email with like 11 steps of like how you go into your DAF and look, make sure you're given to the right organization and you've got the right notes so it gets to my page and then follow up the organization and make sure that they saw it, but it might be under a different name if your fund has named something differently. And then they would reach out to me and make sure this gift was for me specifically. Maybe the note didn't make it in there so I'd reach back out to them. It's like it was comical weeks. And as you well know in peer to peer fundraising, it's like it's all about their real time incorporation giving. So while I was successful in reaching a lot more of these donors and getting those gifts, it took so much effort. And most people that are participating in your events are not doing that and just don't even know. And so what the biggest change has been since 2016. And once like I got connected with the Chariot team, I had already left and spent several years building a different startup in the nonprofit tech space. Had ended up winding that down. That's a whole nother podcast conversation we can have at another time. But connected with them and they told me that they were building a way for people to more easily give with their DAF on a donation form. And I was like, oh my God, I've lived this problem. I saw it firsthand in my own fundraising. And the biggest change was that 10 times as many people were using a DAF. It wasn't just senior partners at Pullman Stacks anymore.

C (5:19)

That's a pretty dramatic entrance into daft territory. I think first of all, the peer to peer fundraising is underutilized. I think it's one of the most powerful ways that nonprofits can fundraise. And I was actually looking at my own charitable giving this year as we kind of head towards like we're in year end. I would say 99% of my charitable giving is peer to peer. It's usually like someone raising money for their daughter's school trip or, or someone raising money. Like my best friend was running a marathon in honor of her dad who died of a brain tumor. And what I love about peer to peer fundraising is what you said is like the surprising way that these gifts come out of the woodwork and you notice that there was a real gap that this, this person wanted to give $10,000. You know, there was like a gap. There was not an easy way to do it. And I think our responsibility as fundraisers is knocking down obstacles, like knocking down obstacles to giving, knocking down obstacles to participation, obstacles to engagement, and really, really kind of figuring out what are some untapped opportunities for organizations. So for those who might not be familiar, can you start by giving us a primer on what donor advised funds are and why they matter for nonprofits right now?

D (6:40)

Yes, for sure. And I would even count this as like, obstacle number one to remove is like not being familiar or comfortable or aware of what these things are and how they work. And once you do have that awareness, you're going to be able to help donors and identify these opportunities more. So obstacle number one is like, what is a daf? And how can we make sure that our full team, no matter what their role is, has a good understanding? So a donor advice fund is a charitable giving account. It is very similar to what a 401k does for someone's retirement or what an HSA, a health savings account, does for someone's healthcare expenses. It's a tax advantage way to segregate funds and keep them invested in the market for a specific restricted use. So in the case of donor advised funds, that means you can contribute to your DAF account with cash or appreciated assets, you know, a share of stocks, some crypto, and then you receive the tax benefit from that contribution upfront in the year you made it, and you invest what is in that account in the market, and then you make grants out of that single account over time. And that's the only thing that you can do. Once the funds or assets go into a daf, it's irrevocable. You can only. It can only ever leave the account and as a grant to a nonprofit, an eligible nonprofit organization. And that mechanism of act proactively setting aside funds and committing them irrevocably is the big unlock from a fundraising perspective. And another barrier. I'd say the mental barrier of like, I've gone ahead and set this money aside. And so when I have opportunities to give, it's easier. There's less mental friction because it's not like a net new cost to me. It's like my fun money. It's almost like a gift card for giving that you've given yourself. So it's a very powerful psychological tool and powerful. Increasing actual dollars available and committed to giving.

A (8:51)

Wow.

C (8:51)

Okay, so is there a minimum amount you can put in a daft? Like, how would a person get started? Like just a regular donor?

D (8:59)

Yeah. I mean, there are now a DAF for. There's a DAF for every stripe, every person. There are some that are zero minimum to get started. You can open it and put $20 in. The largest daft providers are Fidelity charitable and daft giving 360, which is the rebranded name of Schwab Charitable. And both of them have no minimums to open an account and a $50 minimum individual donation size. So that's a huge reason that they've exploded in popularity, is that the largest providers of these accounts have made them way more accessible. There are still options. And certain providers that are higher barrier, they view themselves as more white glove. Like, a lot of community foundations still have relatively high minimum account sizes. Vanguard Charitable, for example, is a $25,000 minimum account opening size. So it depends. But there's something for everyone I think is the key takeaway.

A (10:00)

That's really interesting.

C (10:01)

I know. I think I'm actually tackling my own misconceptions. So let's talk about misconceptions. What are some of the biggest myths that you encounter when talking about DAFs and daft giving?

D (10:17)

I mean, you've hit on the single biggest one already, which is like, oh, this is just a tool for super wealthy people. And even you hearing. I was curious when you said, I was just looking at my giving this year. How do you look at your giving? Like, what do you do to find it?

C (10:33)

Oh, I wish it was more intentional. I am a monthly Giver to a few organizations. And that's probably the most intentional form of giving. But a lot of the giving that I do, it really is just people asking me, like your friend, you know, like you asking your friend. I do a ton of peer to peer and then I do get requests from organizations that I've been giving to you for a long time. But if it's a good, if it's an organization, I've been giving to you for a long time. For me, I'm going to be a monthly donor just because I don't forget or so I don't come up against, you know, Christmas presents and holiday costs at year end, as I know we do. So I think that something like this would actually help me be more strategic and intentional. And then also it's so much easier, it seems like it's so much easier to keep track of because for me, I have to like get all my receipts by the end of the year. I've got to put them all my emails in a special file folder. I have to be super organized because it could come from a credit card or PayPal or this or that. It comes from a bunch of different places. So this seems like a great way to be able for the donor to be more intentional and to really be able to be organized and keep track of what they're getting.

D (11:48)

Yeah, you again, you nailed it. That's the number one thing. When I speak with people who have donor advice funds, whether they are a like more everyday donor like you and I or major donors, the number one thing they say is like, oh, it really streamlined my giving because we all have that memory of like rifling through our inbox to try to find receipts or like going through different credit card statements at the end of the year. Whereas when you have a da, you're contributing, you're donating, quote unquote, like contributing. The actual donation is one time or periodically depending on how you want to fund your daf. But then you've got this central place to view and manage and see all of your giving. And I think that practice of. So for me, for example, I actually receive a DAF as an employee benefit. It's so cool. Like, and I think anyone listening should get excited about this as an alternative to individual gift matching. So. Because if you think about the mechanics, it is so much more powerful because what happens for me is we get up to $200 a month matched into our DAF account. So I have an automatic recurring charge to put $200 into my DAF. My employer matches $200. So every month I am investing $400 in the market automatically behind the scenes for my giving. And then as those opportunities come up, I'm like, oh, I've already got 600, $800 to decide. Let me make a much larger donation. And it is, it's just so powerful to set like that floor of what your annual giving is going to be. Whereas for matching, you have to make the donation out of pocket and then submit it, find the receipt, submit it, then the employer needs to review it, approve it, send the funds individually every single time. So that is the future as far as I'm concerned. Like, it's so much better.

C (13:48)

And I know that the research you recently released, the DAF fundraising report. And I know that one of the findings I'm going to talk about more, maybe some of the findings that surprise you, one of them is that donor advised fund donors are actually more loyal and give in greater amounts. So what are, you know, what does successful stewardship of these donors look like and how does that differ from traditional donor engagement?

D (14:16)

Yes, that's such a good question. And it's so important. I think the fact that we found that daft donors showed 13 percentage points higher retention than non DAF donors in that research group for the DAF fundraising report is it speaks volumes to the intentionality and engagement level of these donors, especially because we just know that their experience of stewardship is really poor compared to other types of donors. And it's. I think there's a few elements. I think it's where like education for sure, but it's also just harder from the nonprofit's perspective because it's like offline through a third party. Unless they're using Chariot's tool Daft Pay, where they can pay with their DAF at checkout and then you similar to a credit card, you know, like who it is, what their email is, can engage with them right away, etc. If not if they're the traditional way of they just go and log into their DAF and submit the gift. It might come a few days, a few weeks later, you might not get all the information. You almost never get an email. So then you're left to like send a paper thank you in the mail. It's so it's just a pretty broken cycle. And so that's like the challenge. I would just push people listening to do what you can to steward these donors. I think someone using their DAF is the single best indicator you can get that they are either a, a wealthy person that you want to build a relationship with, or B, a really intentional and engaged giver, which you also want to build a relationship with. Fidelity Charitable, which is the largest staff provider, they're the only one I know of that discloses median account size because the average account is like $140,000. But that's clearly skewed by some large outliers. But at Fidelity, their median account is around $25,000. That means that over half of the donors using a Fidelity account have more than 25k pre committed to giving.

C (16:21)

Wow.

D (16:21)

So even if it's a 50 or $100 gift, like, you really want to do your best to engage this person and you want to thank them directly. I think another big misconception is that, oh, this gift came from the community foundation or it came from Fidelity Charitable. They don't need your thank you. They don't. They're going to. They're not going to look at it like, don't waste the postage or the paper. Really focus on the individual that recommended that grant. Yes, it gets approved and sent by the DAF sponsor, the host of those accounts, but you got to focus on the relationship with the donor.

C (16:57)

Right. Well, this is really exciting. So we. Well, we should talk maybe about acquisition. I don't like to think of fundraising as transactional, but I agree. I think we should be knocking down these obstacles and these barriers and letting people donate how they want to donate. So what are some ways that you have seen organizations promote DAF giving, especially with digital fundraising strategies? Because it looks like maybe. Let's start with this question. Why is it a perfect marriage with, like, your digital fundraising plan? And how can we do it more effectively?

D (17:33)

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that's where the biggest opportunity is, for a few reasons. One, the responsibility of daft giving or fundraising at an organization historically lived with plan giving or major gifts. So I think it just wasn't on the radar of a lot of direct response or digital fundraisers.

A (17:55)

And.

D (17:56)

And yet, in our study that we did, the daft research report, one of the pieces of analysis this year was looking at the distribution of the size of each DAF gift, and 69% of the gifts were $1,000 or less. So that is such a prime candidate for your digital fundraising efforts. And I think the process to reach more of them. When we talk about acquisition, I think it's just important to note that you already have daft donors that are giving to you not through their daft.

C (18:28)

Right.

D (18:29)

We saw tens of thousands of examples of this in the study. It's been verified by lots of research, outside research as well, not just what Chariot has led, that people with DAs continue to make gifts outside of their DAF on their credit card. When they want to make a gift in the moment, they're inspired by your appeal. Their friend doing the marathon, like, they just don't want to. It's perceived as extra work to go log into their DAF and look things up and submit a gift, even if it is only a few minutes. Like, we're talking about any place we can reduce friction. So if you can, number one, make it clear and like, just include the language, you can use your donor advised fund. Or click here to learn more about using your donor advised fund and take them to a dedicated page on your website. I think if your fundraising platform has daft pay as a checkout option, that's like the most seamless way to put that in front of them. And even if they don't complete their gift through there, you are effectively reminding them, and even if they want to go complete it somewhere else, you have done the important work of making sure they use those funds. Because we've also found in the report that when you're able to move a donor from that credit card gift to using their donor advised fund, same organization, same donor, looking from one year to the next at people who change their way of giving to using their DAF, the average increase in their gift size was 10x and the median was 2x. So some big outliers. That just goes to show that over half the time that you get a daft owner to use their DAF instead of a credit card, they're gonna double or, you know, at least double their donation to you. So that's the opportunity, embed it, make it easy, remind people and make sure your whole team is aware of this because everyone's gotta be spotting those opportunities. Like, oh, wait, another pay. Like, we just created a new form for this campaign for our year end appeal, for our capital campaign, for this mailer going out. Like, everyone's gotta have it top of mind and registering like, oh, is this a good place? Like, everyone should be on the lookout. Everyone should be daft hunting. Yes.

C (20:43)

I love that. Being like a daft detective.

D (20:45)

Yes.

C (20:46)

You like alliteration? I do, I think so. That's a good strategy. So having a page on your website just like a FAQ about it and, you know, really explaining like how it works and how some of the different ways that you'll take, you can take those payments. How about using email, social media, sort of other digital platforms to promote the message.

D (21:11)

Yeah, I, I mean, we had Daft Day earlier this fall and still, still gathering all of the nonprofit results. Again, it's difficult because of the nature of giving that happens so offline. But some of the early things we've heard have been super exciting, that text messages were really effective in alerting someone that, you know, has a daft to give on Daft day, or likely to have a daft, that their conversion rate of doing so digitally was very high. I think if you have an email making it clear that wherever you have a CTA to support, like a secondary line that says you can give with your donor advice fund easily or however you want to frame it, that that's very powerful. And even like mail items that are connecting back to digital, like, I think that's important to connect here because I've had a conversation before with someone who was like, well, all of our Daft donors are male, Don. They give through the mail, so it wouldn't make sense to include them in digital. I mean, I understand why they had that perspective, but I had to remind them that actually every single donor who's getting that piece of mail and going to make a gift through their daft is logging into their computer. So wouldn't you rather them start that journey on your website and your domain than lost in the sauce of the broader Internet?

D (22:36)

So just reminding yourselves, I think that's critical to your question, is these donors are all digital by nature. That's how they have to complete this gift. So those are the right channels.

C (22:49)

That's interesting. And that, that brings me right to my next question. Did the report show any generational or, you know, what are the sort of generational differences in how donors are using DAFs?

D (23:02)

Yeah. So with this report, we only gathered, like anonymized unique donor IDs, so we don't have demographic data on specific donors. In this research, there have been reports published over the past few years that looked at this. I don't have a comprehensive view, and especially something most up to date, but in general, rule of thumbs community foundations, which, out of the 1150 or so DAFs that are out there, they make up 750 of those. So basically every community foundation has a DAF program or just about. So it's just a good place to look in. In your local community, there's a DAF probably right around the corner. And those tend to skew a little bit older. I think it's. They tend to have higher minimums so generally like wealthier people. And also it just tends to have an older audience, larger, like I call them commercial dafs, ones that are hosted by like a financial services company's nonprofit affiliate. So it's your Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard, et cetera. I'm pretty sure that Fidelity disclosed that they're like median age of someone opening an account was in their early 50s. But then you've got newer like very tech forward options like Daffy, which is where I have my DAFF account. And I think the last time they disclosed this, their median account owner age was like 40. So it is definitely trending downward and I think more young people getting involved. I've heard this in conversations with community foundations that they're very focused on improving the experience for their fund holders so that it appeals to the younger generations of the parents that have their accounts there and make sure they don't want to move them to an easier to use platform.

C (24:53)

Oh, that makes so much sense. I just see all the time non profits saying, oh, well, my donors are older so they would not be using this because they think maybe it's some technology that people are not familiar with. But it sounds like you get the digital donors, the people that are heavily online. You've got older donors, maybe not so tech savvy, but you do have to be tech savvy to log in. And I think it's, it's probably like a very wide range, you know, rather than like direct mail, you know, checks obviously skew older and social media fundraising skews younger and that kind of thing. So it sounds like it's really good cross section. Is there anything else in the fundraising report that surprised you or something that we should be paying attention to?

D (25:38)

I mean, I think the biggest thing to be paying attention to is just how important data practices and hygiene is. Like, I know that's not the most exciting, exciting topic that every digital fundraiser wants to dig into, but like, oh, especially here at year end, like, oh my God, it's so important that these gifts get tracked correctly. I think the biggest, most striking thing from the report is how quickly this has become a major segment of fundraising revenue. So like 10 years ago, yeah, you probably did only get a handful of these gifts. So like, who cares how you were tracking them? But now it's really critical because you can't test the impact or changes or value of any strategies you're deploying if you don't have a good handle on the data. And so that like found that's the foundation of everything that's the foundation of being able to participate in this report or do your own analysis. And that's how you're going to determine. How are we reaching these donors? What strategies are working? Like, all the questions you've asked me, you can't answer them unless you are confident in the data that you've gathered. So I know that that's, again, not like, the sexiest thing ever, but just lean into it, nerd out on it. Like, really invest that your whole organization internally is on the same page about how these gifts get coded and tracked and how you run analysis on them. Because this trend is not going away. The giving is growing. Like Fidelity grew 25% last year, year over year in their grant making. Schwab grew 35% year, 34% year over year in their grant making. And those are the biggest ones. Like, it's just astronomical how fast things are growing.

C (27:17)

I think that's so interesting. How can Chariot support nonprofits or how do you support nonprofits in, you know, getting, stewarding, reaching more of these donors?

D (27:29)

So Chariot is the donor advice fund payments company. So, I mean, really think about. We don't host a DAF program. We don't run DAF accounts. But what we do is help make the experience of using your DAF and receiving those grant payments easier for everyone in the process. So from a nonprofit's perspective, how can you make sure more donors are using their DAF to give to you? Well, we provide a payment option for how you can. How people can pay with their DAF directly on your donation form. So it's called DAF Payment. Like Apple Pay or Google Pay, we partner with many of the fundraising platforms you already use. Or organizations might work directly with us if they need direct access to that technology to employ or embed themselves in their own websites or digital experiences. We also have a platform for actually dispersing and processing gifts from DAFs. So when you claim your Chariot account and any nonprofit listening here can claim your Chariot account, there's no cost. But a lot of our daft partners increasingly are actually using our platform to send payments to you so that they're instant. It's all digital and more secure, and you have full structured gift data in real time so that you can steward and thank those donors more effectively and update your CRM and any of your other systems internally with the right information. So we are here to help anyone and everyone. There's. There's a way for any organization to engage with what we do, but it's all about making DAF getting easier And I mean easier both for people to give and for you to receive those payments.

C (29:08)

What trends do you see on the horizon in the daft space over the next sort of three to five years?

D (29:15)

I think the trend of a broader audience adopting DAFs and younger people adopting DAs, like where we are like barely scratching the surface. So GoFundMe actually just launched a DAF product earlier this year so that people can create a DAF account actually in their GoFundMe account, individual donors. And I think, you know, that's now reaching an audience of millions of people. I think a lot of DAF providers are finding their footing in how they can market this tool for increased and more intentional generosity to a wider audience. I mean, there's around 2 million DAF accounts as of the end of 2023. I think in the next five years that could be 5 million. Like, especially when you made that comparison to 401ks, there's about 70 million people that have a 401k in the United States. I think that many people should have a daf like that many people make donations. And if you're making donations, you could be more intentional, engaged and generous by using a daft. So that's my, my prediction slash hope for the next five years.

C (30:25)

Oh, I really love that. So what I can, what I see happening, I see people listening to the podcast that maybe have not considered this a strategy that they would employ, getting really excited about it. This will be coming out in December. We're going to be year end, we're going to be crazy spinning our wheels. Is this something that we can employ immediately or should we kind of wait and build a strategy? What's kind of the first step that someone that's just listening is like so excited should take?

D (30:55)

Yeah, I love that question because it is all about taking a step, right? And so determining what the right step is for you. But there is something you can do today. One of my favorite pieces of advice is go to your website right now and try to find your own ein. If it takes you more than 10 seconds, you've just lost a daft owner. That's like the single lowest lift thing that you could change.

C (31:18)

It should be on the bottom of your. The footer. I've seen that.

D (31:23)

I think that put it on the.

C (31:24)

Footer, put it in the about us, put it in the donate page, put it on contact us.

D (31:29)

Yes. So I think that's something anyone can do also. Just. But I'm sure you still have emails going out before your end. Like, look at them See if there's a place you could include a mention of hey, you can use your donor advised fund check. Another thing that is easy to do at your end, check your fundraising platform. If they offer daft pay as a payment option, that's just typically as simple as like making sure it's. The box is checked and then it's turned on. So that's something that you could do with pretty, you know, minimal lift. And then last is just you can claim your chariot account with us. I think this you're getting the surge of payments, as many of those as you can get digitally at your end the better. And so I think that's something you can double check is are we signed up to be getting ACH payments or digital payments wherever possible so that we get that faster, we can steward the donor better. We have like our data, our ducks in a row and our data, all those things are just like amplified at year end because of the increase in giving.

C (32:29)

I would also add one thing that I've seen that be that's effective is telling a story of like a daft donor to. So I know when I talk to my clients about recurring giving, you know, I say, well, have you even shared a story about a recurring giving donor? Have you even told people it's possible. We're so in the weeds, right? We're so in the trenches that we think, oh, of course they know recurring giving is an option. Of course they know daft giving is an option or planned giving or whatever it is. But I think just really telling a story of a donor who gave through a daft. If you haven't started, you're not going to have those stories yet. I, you know, I understand that. But building that up, maybe talking, having the director of development do like a little ask me anything. Like this is something new that we're doing and we're really excited about it and we want to invite you to join us this December in thinking about this. So, yeah, just talking about it and not sort of keeping it, you know, making it this big mystery that I think we've done for a long time.

D (33:33)

Yeah, I think one of the questions I ask, and we were talking about conferences before we started recording. I have the pleasure of attending and speaking at a lot of them, which I love, and getting to help people improve their comfort level with this topic. But I always ask who in here knows what a donor advised fund is? And almost every person raises their hand. So, yeah, I don't. And then my follow up is always like, okay, well who would feel Comfortable explaining what a DAF is to a donor. And then, like, almost most of the hands go down. It's like, that's the bridge we need to cross next. It's not just knowing, like, okay, in theory, I know what a DAF is, but that you've got the comfort with the topic that you could talk to someone else about it. That means that you're going to be able to, like, help a donor that has questions, spot opportunities to highlight this in your giving. And I think one of the easiest ways to get more comfortable is like, open your own DAF account. Pretty much every nonprofit fundraising professional gives more than once a year because all their friends are doing it right and everyone's supporting each other. And so because there's all these, like, easy, low barrier, entry, low entry DAF options.

C (34:40)

Yeah.

D (34:40)

Try, get. Try getting one for yourself. And that is also something in your control that you could do quickly. That will just be really powerful in donor conversations with your team because you'll have firsthand experience and there's nothing more powerful than that.

C (34:55)

Oh, that's such a great idea. It's sort of like what I say, you know, if you want to improve your donation page, go to it and make a donation, see how long it takes, see what the options are, see how many clicks, see if you get an email response when you donate. So if you're not familiar with the process firsthand, it's going to be more difficult, like you just said, to explain it to others and to get other people on board. Well, this has really been fantastic. I would encourage everyone to follow Chariot, to read the daft fundraising report, to get on board for DAF Day, which I think is in October. Is it the same day every year?

D (35:29)

It's the second Thursday in October.

C (35:32)

Okay. But if they sign up for your email list and your blog follow you on LinkedIn, they'll get information.

A (35:38)

Can you share with us all of those links?

D (35:41)

Yeah, we'll.

C (35:41)

And I'll put them in the show notes, too.

D (35:43)

We'll share all those links. If you follow me. There's no way you will not hear about DAF day before October 8, 2026. So get ready.

C (35:53)

I love your LinkedIn, though, because a lot of people, they focus on a topic and it kind of goes stale after a while, but somehow you make this topic or you're just always making it relevant and interesting and timely. Compelling. I mean, I guess because there's always so many new things happening in the space, but yeah, everyone follow Mitch Stein on LinkedIn. I will put it in the show notes. I really encourage you to and I just always love your positivity and your energy and just really happy that you came on the podcast to share your wisdom.

D (36:26)

Oh, thank you, Julia. I'm right back at you. I feel the same way. And yeah, appreciate it. Looking forward to connecting with some new folks after this. And get Buckle up. Get ready for more insight on DAPS than you ever thought you needed, but hopefully it'll stay.

C (36:41)

We need all the insight. All right, well, thanks so much, Mitch.

B (36:51)

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening.

C (36:56)

All the way to the end.

B (36:57)

If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn SA.