A (3:34)

Yep.

B (3:35)

And thought I had just a urinary tract infection and asked for some antibiotics. So I was ready to get on my path to parenthood. And the doctor found that I had a cyst on my ovary, and we scheduled surgery to get it removed, and I thought I'd be back to work in a week. She said it was benign. And come to find out, when I get into surgery and I'm under anesthesia, they found cancer had spread throughout my abdomen, and they did an emergency hysterectomy without my knowledge. And so.

A (4:06)

Without your knowledge?

B (4:07)

Yeah. I did not expect that at all, because the doctors didn't think that it was malignant until they got in there, and then they saw it was not just on my ovaries, but my uterus and all throughout my abdomen. And so they had to make a decision to save my life, which I really appreciate now. But on the same day I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, I was diagnosed with infertility, which was actually the more painful diagnosis. You know, in your 20s, when you're. You haven't had your kids yet. So obviously, my life path went in a dramatically different direction. I was treated with the surgery and then six months of chemotherapy, and I've been lucky ever since that it's never came back. And it's been almost 30 years. So I'd like to share my story in a way that just to give hope to people have been diagnosed more recently, that you can survive for decades after a cancer diagnosis, Especially now, there's much better treatments than there were back when I was diagnosed. What I really struggled with during that time was keeping my friends and family up to date with what was going on.

A (5:12)

Yes.

B (5:13)

Process. And I just couldn't make one more call or send one more email or answer or talk about it anymore. Was too depressing.

A (5:23)

And I completely understand.

B (5:25)

Yeah, it's overwhelming. It's like another job on top of feeling better. What is your experience with that now?

A (5:33)

Well, I think that right now, where I am in my cancer journey is. And you probably experienced this also, is that people just think, oh, it's over because I'm through the worst of it. I'm through. I did six months of chemo. I'm still doing modified chemotherapy, but my hair is growing back. I have more energy. I'm sort of back to my normal self a little bit. So I think that people now are just hoping it's kind of behind us. But what really struck me about your story is the grief element of cancer that people don't really talk about. So grieving your former self, grieving your future, grieving what could have been. I mean, grief is such a huge part of it, because cancer is just a thief. It just steals. It just steals and steals. So for you, you know, people might say to you, oh, you're so lucky you survived cancer. And you think, okay. And then you just have to sort of take it at face value because they don't understand everything that you have been robbed of because of that diagnosis.

B (6:37)

That's so true. I mean, just the future that I had in front of me was completely cut off. It's like a big tree. Like, went over that.

A (6:45)

Yes. Yep.

B (6:46)

And now you have to, like, navigate somewhere new and different that you didn't expect. And with, like, the feminine cancers.

A (6:54)

Yes.

B (6:55)

Losing that piece of your femininity and as part of your identity, like, back then for me was like, the ability to have kids. Like, I just couldn't have do that. So I had to, like, find a new path, which I was determined to, and I did. And we, you know, we're fortunate to find a surrogate mom and an egg donor, because I didn't have eggs saved, and so I now have twins who are 20 years old. It all, you know, the cure for infertility is children. So that, like, that was cured once I had my kids. But, you know, like, the light, the way you thought you might have them, and the genetic component, that's not a part of, you know, our. Me and my kids. It's. It doesn't matter anymore. But it matters in a way that that's how you thought your future would go.

A (7:41)

And it's such a unique experience that only cancer survivors can understand. That's why I do enjoy, you know. Right. I. In the beginning, I didn't want to go on Facebook and find support groups. I didn't want to talk to anybody. I spent, like, quite a few months just probably in denial, because that's, like, part of grief. Right. But now I really do enjoy talking to other cancer survivors. And, you know, it's a club that we never wanted to be in, but Just knowing we're not alone. So, yeah, tell me about the foundation and starting a nonprofit and being a founder and all of the things that go into that.

B (8:17)

Yeah, well, I found, you know, my new passion after that happened was helping other people through the cancer treatment phase and. And beyond. Because after treatment ends, like you had mentioned, it's a whole nother path of healing, recovery, recovery, and that it's like a ptsd. So it's.

A (8:36)

Yes.

B (8:37)

And it might come back. So you're, you know, it doesn't end just because active treatment ends.

A (8:43)

Right.

B (8:43)

It is a process. And I'll tell you, Since I'm almost 30 years out, it does get easier with time. But those first year, two years, three through five years especially, is just like, just lean on community like us or anybody that, you know, is my advice. And don't, you know, try and suffer through it alone, because that's not the best way to go, my friends.

A (9:07)

Yeah, we call it scanxiety. So unfortunately. Unfortunately or fortunately, one of my best friends just recently, no evidence of active disease. She just. She had colorectal cancer, stage four, and she actually beat it. But she's talking about every time you go to the doctor, every time you feel a pain every day, every time you get a blood test, every time you get an mri, it's just this anxiety that it's going to come back or something else is going to come. And I never had that before in my life. I was like, literally so healthy. There's no cancer in my family. There's cancer in my husband's family. So to me, it was just like an utterly came out of complete left field. But that constant anxiety that is going to come back and that it's, like always weighing on you.

B (9:57)

And that's what, you know, cancer survivors can really empathize with. So a few years after, you know, my diagnosis and I felt like the cancer whisperer, people were like, oh, my friend has cancer. And I was in my, like, early 30s.

A (10:11)

Would you talk to her? Yes, I get that a lot, too.

B (10:15)

Right.

A (10:15)

And happy to talk to anyone, by the way, anyone listening on the podcast, happy to email.

B (10:21)

So a few years later, you know, since I had been struggling with keeping people up to date with what was going on, and it just felt like a weight on my shoulder to be that communication channel wasn't there for me, that decided to start an online digital community for people specifically with cancer to help them with the social, emotional support that they needed, as well as the practical and logistical support that people could kind of sign up to help them with meals or take them to the doctor, et cetera. And so I created my lifeline.org in 2007. It was kind of the year that Facebook came out to the public as well. So this wasn't like a normal way that people communicated yet, right. Until kind of those days when like Facebook came out and, and, and then our, you know, community came out as well. And so I learned how to start a non profit and grow a non profit for 10 years as their executive director. And then after 10 years decided to expand it through strategic partnership and a merger with the cancer support community, which is an incredible organization that I recommend anybody go to who's got cancer. They've so many resources including my Lifeline is a program of theirs now and emerging that in 2018. And I stayed with them through 2020 and as the leader of the digital team as well as like business development, fundraising, promotions, marketing, all of that stuff. So yeah, so I did that through 2020 and then after coming through the pandemic, realized I'm really passionate about team culture and organizational culture as a measure of success for nonprofits because we tend to burn each other, you know, burn out, just overwork, under resource, all that. And I'm like, it shouldn't be like that. Especially in the healthcare world where you exist to provide health services to people internally. If your organization is feeling under the weather, under conflict, HR investigations are happening potentially if things get really bad, if there's any toxic dynamics, it doesn't help the mission if you're kind of like feeling sick internally. So I want the health of the organization internally to reflect what their mission is externally. And that's when I started Culture Cares.

A (12:38)

Oh, I love it. So your sort of key phrase is culture is your growth engine. Right. So what does that mean for a nonprofit leader? Sort of in practical terms. And I do want to get to the Culture Cares framework as well.

B (12:54)

Yeah, the Culture Cares is the how. But why this is your growth engine is because if you are leading a fundraising team or marketing team or an organization and you know, when the staff is not getting along or the vibe isn't right, it's not just about a feeling. It's just it takes productivity down, efficiency down. And we really, since we are so strapped for resources, a lot of the times, like we have to be efficient with our resources and that includes people and the relationships inside the organization. So if you're putting, if you have a great fundraising strategy but your team is not getting along or they're overly exhausted, stressed and overwhelmed, you're not going to get the results. You're not going to get the fundraising results that you could get if you don't have the capacity within first tuned up and optimized to get the results that you want to get with your mission and your fundraising results.

A (13:55)

Exactly. And speaking of, you know, mindset, I think that is such a just big part of what holds a lot of organizations back. And I know that, you know, many leaders assume, like, revenue challenges just means, like, do more fundraising. Do more fundraising. But you found that cultural misalignment is often the real roadblock to, like, increasing revenue. So could you maybe share an example or just talk to us about how you've discovered that and kind of what can we do about that?

B (14:26)

Yeah, well, let me share a story about that. So I was working with a team that was about 40 people, a little bit more than 40 people, and they were responsible for a $20 million fundraising goal. And when I met them, I was doing a speech for the Colorado Nonprofit association about culture and how it is the growth engine to get you to your fundraising goal. It is put that in place first, and then you achieve the fundraising goal. And someone came up to me afterwards from the team, and they said, our culture is terrible. It's so toxic that people can't run out the door fast enough. So they couldn't keep their fundraisers in house because they kept leaving and people weren't getting along, and there was a lot of unhealthy conflict inside. And they said, we need. We know we have a cultural problem, but we don't know where to start on how to fix it. And so when I talked about culture cares, it's a structure and a process. It's not around feelings. It's around, like, what truly works. It's research and evidence based, and it's based on data of what people want when they go to work. And so when we put the culture care system in place, they saw their culture absolutely accelerate their ability to get their results. So for an example, once we got. We took their culture from red to yellow, moving towards green, which is kind of how I describe it. Like, red is red flag, yellow is vulnerable, and green is like, you're all systems go. You're going to hit your goals. They. They made a massive change. They increased engagement by 86%. Psychological safety, they improved by 94%. Like, massive improvements, measurably. And they were able to hit their fundraising goal, their $20 million fundraising goal, the next year, two months early. And so that's like, the power of having a healthy, inclusive, an empowering culture where staff can thrive.

A (16:19)

All right, well, let's talk a little bit about the framework, the how. So it's called Culture Cares. I will link to it in the show. Notes. What are the core components? Yeah. How can we kind of adapt it.

B (16:33)

Yeah.

A (16:33)

To our. To our needs? And is it for small nonprofits, medium, any kind of organization, anyone that has.

B (16:40)

A team of people.

A (16:41)

Okay.

B (16:42)

It works for. It could be small, it could be large. So CARES is an acronym for commitment, appreciation, respect, engagement, and safety. And it's shaped like a pyramid, kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. CARES at the top, the sea, is the peak of the mountain. You want to get to a place of commitment, shared accountability, and ownership of the goals that you're trying to hit as an organization. But we need to start at the base, at the foundation, which is the S in cares. That's safety. It could be physical safety, psychological safety, could be security, job security. If people aren't feeling safe and secure, it's really hard for them to think out of the box and take risks and have innovative ideas that can move the needle forward for your community. So we've got to start with a base of safety, and we measure it. So the CARES process is that we measure it with seven validated measures. How psychologically safe is your team? And then we level up to engagement, which is the E in cares. And engagement is a culture of learning and growth and development. And then we level up to respect, which is your dei, Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, initiatives. It's right in the center of the pyramid. And we know in the nonprofit sector, we are highly attuned to having a very inclusive, empowering culture for everybody. But it's hard to achieve. CARES is very central to the model. And then we level up to the A in cares, which is appreciation, which is a culture of connection and recognition. And you hit the peak of commitment, where your staff are committed, you're retaining your top talent, you're able to recruit committed staff into, you know, talent into your organization. And you have a reputation of having a culture that cares. And so that's what that means. And then we put the place all the pieces in place for an organization, and they 100% will see their culture start to take off in a defined way.

A (18:46)

Turnover is a huge problem in the sector. And I know, I think something like 70% of fundraisers, according to, like, a Chronicle of Philanthropy article, are planning on leaving their job in the next year. And then I think 34 of those are not even going to pursue jobs in the sector when they leave their fundraising position. So I'm thinking with the Culture CARES framework just because I feel like when I do workshops and board retreats around marketing, there's always naysayers, right? There's always the skeptic or the negative Nelly or the Debbie Downer or the that person or people that just are not getting on board with this. Like, what are some strategies for leaders that really want to embrace this and believe that culture is super important but are getting pushback?

B (19:40)

You're going to find that on most teams, especially when you bring in culture after you've hired them. I would say first start with who you hire and make sure that they believe that a healthy culture and contributing to a healthy culture is a value of theirs. So that's when you're hiring new people. You want to just have people on board with having a healthy, inclusive, empowering culture as your baseline. When you hire someone new, if you've already hired people and you're really starting to think about how can we execute a better culture here and become a better version of ourselves? I mean, there's going to be the naysayers and what the CARES process does, it establishes a higher standard for everybody. So if the naysayer, and I would put it in your performance reviews and in your KPIs as like, how are you contributing to a healthy culture? How are you bringing connection and appreciation into the workplace instead of just, you know, talking badly about people or behind their backs? I'm working with an organization now where we just did their CARES assessment assessment. And I kid you not, in the comments, people are say that they want others to stop trash talking. There's personal vendettas. It is so, so negative, so, so red that they may need a new group of people if they can't. Now that we've established we're not doing trash talking anymore, gossiping or throwing people under the bus like that. Those behaviors should just be unacceptable at work. And if people do do that, they may not work for the future of your organization because if you want to hit those higher fundraising goals and, and more program numbers and really working with your being an example for your community, you've got to have the internal people that are culture contributors and ambassadors.

A (21:30)

I completely agree with that. We touched on burnout a little bit. I think burnout is just such a buzzword almost. I mean, it's really true and it really happens. How can this healthy culture contribute to fewer people experiencing burnout and actually maybe helping us really get to our mission quicker.

B (21:54)

Yeah, yeah. Well, the World Health Organization defines burnout as workplace stress not properly managed. So I think that's like a really interesting definition of burnout.

A (22:06)

Yes.

B (22:07)

Burnout can be like, what does that mean? Exactly. So workplace stress not properly managed. When you have a healthy culture and you have higher standards for behaviors and values in your organization, the stress will reduce if there's less unhealthy conflict, you know, trash talking as the, as the other organization is experienced, that is very stressful. To come into a team where they're just at odds and constantly putting each other down, that is stressful. If you can eliminate those kinds of stressors, because work is naturally going to be stressful because you're stretching yourself, you're challenging yourself to achieve big goals and achieve a mission that may truly be impossible. Like some of our goals are truly impossible in the nonprofit sector. You know, eliminate homelessness, eliminate food insecurity. I mean, these are truly impossible goals, but we're going for it anyways. So there's just a level of stress. Like we wish we could help everybody, but we have a certain amount of resources. If you can like reduce the type of stress where team members are inflicting that on each other, that would really reduce burnout. Because you could enjoy going into work with like minded people who want to have really good attitudes and positive, optimistic outlook despite, you know, the challenges that they're being charged with addressing.

A (23:30)

Yes, absolutely. What about equity and inclusion? Here where I live, the school board, we call it deib, Diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And those values inform all of our goals and all of our work. We have to see everything through. We want to see everything through that lens. We try to see everything through that lens. So how does that intersect with this work and how does it also inform, like, empowering leaders?

B (23:59)

Yeah, everything. It's very central to the CARES framework. With the R being respect. It comes down to really mutual respect, all of those things. How can we remove barriers out of the way so that people have the opportunities to succeed? And how can we show each other respect internally? I think that's another big driver of burnout is a lack of respect in the workplace. And so if we can really all come together and see diverse perspectives. I had the privilege of interviewing the chief diversity officer of the American Cancer Society a few years ago, and she said something that really stuck with me. She said, diversity is tough and inclusion is tougher. And I've always thought about that, like we always are. Like we need a diverse board and we need diverse staff. But even with diversity, you may not get inclusion because that's another level of challenge that we need to address internally and really to be able to expand that diversity beyond race and gender, to be like different ages and different professional backgrounds and different personal lived experiences and different physical abilities. It's so wide diversity, you know, it's just always got to be like, in the conversation of how can we be more accepting and inclusive of others who are different?

A (25:23)

Yeah, it is. It's always. It's like, not something you never check off a list. You know, it's the work's never done. It's sort of like the culture work. The culture work is kind of never done. And that's why I love the red, yellow, green, because you could be a green, and then something could happen. You go back to red or you go to yellow, and then you got to get back to green. But all of this work is just not a one and done kind of check it off, off your. Your list. That's why it can be really difficult for organizations to prioritize it when there's, you know, so many fires to put out.

B (25:55)

Yeah. Can I give you an analogy?

A (25:57)

Yes.

B (25:58)

Yes. So think of it like personal health. It's our health, right. It's never over. Just because we worked out today doesn't mean we don't have to work out tomorrow and eat healthier. And we're always falling back into bad habits and then working, you know, them. But the awareness of always trying to, like, keep your physical health as good as possible is a lifelong journey. I think of culture and DEI work as organizational health in the same way. It just always needs to be cared for and tended to, and we're going to fall back into bad habits, you know, with our behaviors at work. But can we, like, recover the next day and apologize or be more accepting of someone's different perspective the next day and. Or, you know, just be, like, vulnerable? Like, we're just people trying to do the best with what we have with the world crashing in around us, you know, like, we're just doing the best we can. Just be accepting and loving, caring and respectful is really like the banner. I'm trying to move forward in the nonprofit world so that we don't get in our own ways because we all have the biggest hearts, and everybody who comes to work, it just has a big heart. We just are. Do human things and mess up a lot, and so just forgiveness and forgiveness and love and just try and make this world a better place from the inside out.

A (27:16)

I love your poster you are meant for great things. It's in your background. So you wrote a book called you're meant for great things, which I need to order. I'm going to order it on Amazon, where you talk about turning setbacks into stepping stones. Can you tell me about your book and why you wrote it?

B (27:34)

Yes. And I'm gonna send you a book, Julia. Oh, you're so sweet.

A (27:39)

Thank you.

B (27:40)

I wrote it because it was a Covid project, you know, kind of after.

A (27:44)

Oh, yeah.

B (27:45)

Been reflecting on all the adversity I've been through in life. And I just kind of wanted to chronicle what, like, the lessons I learned from it. And it didn't just start with a cancer diagnosis. It started earlier in college. I had some adverse symptoms affect, you know, things happen in college. And my roommate said I ended up in the hospital one time. And my roommate said, you are meant for great things, like just out of, like, just something. She's like, these things, like, keep happening to you, like car accidents and things, and you just keep popping back up. So she said something, and I didn't take it seriously, of course. You know, I was just like, whatever. But it planted a seed in me so that, like, the next time something bad happened, like cancer, a few years later, I don't know why, it just kind of popped up like, okay, I can do this, I can do this. And I really believe everyone is meant for great things and we can all get through. We all have adversity in life. And so the book really kind of talked about, like, the different adversities as well as kind of how I kind of like my mindset to come through it. And then starting my non profit and how hard it is to run a non profit. That's why I mentor and coach executive directors now, is because I know firsthand, like, how, like, you don't even know what you're getting into when you get into nonprofits, right? You're just like, I want to help people. And then you get in. And it is really, really tough work. And so kind of chronicled like that 10 years and then merging. I really believe that now with funding so constricted that we need to merge, collaborate even more than we were before. And so I also wanted to share the story of how this merger came about and how successful it was so that other nonprofits who are struggling with kind of competing with a lot of similar nonprofits think about how you can come together for the benefit of the patients that you're serving or the community that you're serving. So it kind of chart. It charts a whole story that way. And I just hope it helps other cancer survivors and nonprofit leaders and women who have been through some. Some challenging times.

A (29:54)

Oh, yes. Oh, it sounds wonderful. And I want people to check out your podcast also. Nonprofit CEO Spark. Yeah. So tell me about the podcast. What spurred it? What have you learned from the podcast? I. I love podcasting. I think it's just a fantastic way to get to know different people.

B (30:15)

Oh, my gosh. And you do such a good job with yours.

A (30:17)

Thank you.

B (30:18)

Well, I love listening to podcasts for years, and it's one of those things where there's like a voice in the side of your head. Well, you should just start one and. And talk with nonprofit leaders about their challenges. How are they getting through different, like, cultural challenges with people and teams and how can we just, you know, help each other be the best versions of ourselves? I became a certified Dream Manager early this year, and I really believe that helping people achieve their dreams is a pathway to health and happiness. And so I do this Dream Manager work, which I love, and it just. The whole essence is that if you become the best version of yourself, which is an ongoing, lifelong journey, and if you're all doing that together on a team, your organization can become the best version of itself. And so that's the whole premise of this Dream Manager curriculum. So I want to work with more organizations and help their people really see the bigger picture rather than be stuck in the weeds of, like, the stress of daily life. See what you can create as a team and as an individual and as an organization to help the world.

A (31:29)

Oh, wow.

B (31:30)

I love that.

A (31:31)

Okay, so the Nonprofit CEO Spark Podcast, the book, you are meant for great things now as a person in the world. But I would love your advice on this. When you said that, you know, the world is crashing in. I'm just thinking this is going to be released a few weeks after it's recorded, but I'm sure that the news will not have changed and all of a sudden become incredibly positive and happy. So what advice would you really give to a nonprofit leader right now, listening, who really feels the weight of the world? All of. Because I do think nonprofit leaders feel social injustice more deeply. I mean, that's might be a generalization, but I think most of us, we're working towards creating a better world when it seems like all of the systems in place are against us and working to make the world more dangerous or violent or unjust. So what advice would you have for a leader who kind of feels stuck? They're Just, you know, surviving. They're not thriving and they want to be doing this work, but it feels so heavy.

B (32:39)

Well, it does feel heavy, but if they're doing the work, that's all they can do. And I did an episode kind of near the beginning, a podcast episode about the only thing we can control, and that's ourselves. So we can only control ourselves. And if we're doing the work we believe in every day, that is a gift. A lot of people are see the world crashing and they're going to a job that's not actually trying to turn it back right side up. And we in the non profit sector making a difference. That is a true gift. It's hard, but it's also like it's our choice, like we have agency in doing the work we believe in to create the systems that create fairness in the world. I personally, I really turn off cable news and rarely watch it because that I believe cable news is trying to instill fear into our society and they only promote the horrible, horrible things happening. And what I like to focus on is all the good work that you're all doing that everyone in the nonprofit sector is doing to save people's lives and to treat them fairly and to just bring more equity in. And so that it's really like your perspective in the window to the world. I don't want my window to be what Fox News or CNN or any of the cable news channels want me to see, because their job is to create fear and panic and I'm not doing that. So I'm just doing what I can. I'm trying to, you know, help people the way that I, that I feel like I can. And that's kind of the, the advice I give is to stop giving them power. The more we watch cable news and they get advertisers and gives them all the power.

A (34:24)

Social media too, even though I am a social media consultant. You can use it for good, use it for good. But honestly, if you're just doom scrolling like I was the other day, what I found is I was completely doom scrolling going down a huge rabbit hole of, you know, the protests in Minneapolis and, and everything. And then I went, I decided, you know what? I'm going to watch a bunch of videos of flash mobs just dancing in New York City. And I literally sat for an hour and just watched like these amazing videos of dance flash mobs all over the world. And it really just helped me think, oh, there's good things going on. It like calmed my nervous system down. So I do Think like social media can be used for good. I do. I just. I know. So I think you're right. You have to regulate yourself. You have to know your limits. And I just think for non profits out there, you are doing such good work and your work matters. And it might seem like there's so much adversity, but your work matters.

B (35:28)

And it really matters where you focus your attention because it is that attention economy. And if you give these negative destructive forces your attention, it's you. We need to stay informed. But there's ways to stay informed. That's not like, let's say cable news or social media is like, they know how to work our brains to doomsday.

A (35:48)

Oh, it's built on. It's built on engagement. And then the kind of what gets people to engage is to get people angry a lot of the time.

B (35:57)

And that's what's pitting us against each other. So it is like really that as an individual, just try and like turn your attention away from all the negativity and look at the positivity in the world. Like you said, the flash mobs, people just getting together and dancing. Like, what's better than that, you know? And that's happening everywhere and where it's not being promoted barely. You know, I wish that was on.

A (36:20)

I recommend, I recommend that and I also recommend any kind of aquatic like conservation Instagram account about whales and otters and just that's so peaceful. And the water. This is wonderful. As we wrap up, where can people connect with you online? Where do you spend time? Where do you want to direct people that want to learn more about you and working with you?

B (36:44)

Yeah. I would love for you to introduce yourself on LinkedIn. Marsha Beckner. M A R C I A Beckner. B E C K N E R. Please connect with me there and then you can go to my website to find all the podcast information@culture cares.com this has been fantastic.

A (37:02)

Thank you so much. I wish you nothing but the healthiest and most relaxing and productive year.

B (37:11)

Thank you. Same to you, Julia.

A (37:19)

Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then you can find me on Instagram. Juliacampbell77 Keep changing the world, you non profit unicorn.