Ep 208: Bring Back the Joy of Giving (with Allison Fine)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 208 - Bring Back the Joy of Giving (with Allison Fine)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host/Author: Joan Garry
• Guest: Alison Fine, President of Every.org
• Release Date: August 3, 2024

---

Introduction

In Episode 208 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Garry engages in a dynamic conversation with Alison Fine, the president of Every.org. The episode, titled “Bring Back the Joy of Giving,” delves into transformative approaches to nonprofit fundraising, emphasizing a shift from transactional to relational giving. Alison Fine shares her extensive experience in leveraging technology to foster deeper connections between nonprofits and their donors, advocating for a more joyful and meaningful fundraising experience.

---

The Problem with Transactional Fundraising

Alison Fine begins by addressing the entrenched issue within the nonprofit sector: the prevalence of transactional fundraising methods. She criticizes the traditional "ask, ask, ask" approach, where nonprofits continually request donations without fostering meaningful relationships with donors.

Alison Fine [03:49]: "My mission is to reshape the entire field of fundraising, Joan. It is to move us from a default setting of transactional asks... to a brand new 21st century model of engaging with and bringing joy to donors."

Fine attributes the dominance of transactional fundraising to over six decades of conventional practices, heavily influenced by consultants who treat nonprofits like catalog-based retail operations.

Alison Fine [04:35]: "It's six decades of conventional wisdom that the way to get a donation is to just keep asking and mailing and now emailing and over and over again until there's no one left to ask."

Joan Garry echoes this sentiment, pondering whether the sector's historical roots, such as those from large organizations like United Way, have inadvertently steered nonprofits toward transactional giving.

---

Introducing Every.org and Its Mission

Alison introduces Every.org as a nonprofit dedicated to transforming fundraising practices. The platform aims to increase the joy of giving while reducing friction for both donors and organizations.

Alison Fine [12:44]: "We're a C3, right? So we live in this same space with folks. The tech is amazing... We're actually organized as a donor advised fund."

Every.org stands out by accepting diverse payment methods, including crypto and stock donations, without charging setup or transaction fees. Funded by foundations like Camp.org and the Gates Foundation, the platform focuses on supporting small nonprofits by providing essential fundraising infrastructure.

Alison Fine [12:44]: "We don't take fees for setup or fees for transactions. We don't sell the data. We're funded by foundations like camp.org and the Gates foundation and optional tips by donors. And that's it. It's just beautiful."

---

Relational Fundraising vs. Transactional Fundraising

The core of the discussion revolves around transitioning from a quantity-focused, transactional fundraising model to a quality-focused, relational approach. Alison emphasizes the importance of viewing donors as valued individuals rather than mere revenue sources.

Alison Fine [23:12]: "The dehumanizing of the $25 donor is because of the leaky bucket."

She explains the concept of the "leaky bucket," where nonprofits continuously acquire new donors to replace those who drop out, leading to a perpetual cycle of acquisition without genuine retention. This system not only strains organizational resources but also devalues donor relationships.

Alison Fine [25:42]: "It is a system built to make nonprofits dependent on that conventional wisdom and leaking money and donors constantly. It's a broken system."

---

The Importance of Donor Retention

A significant portion of the conversation highlights donor retention as a critical factor for sustainable fundraising. Alison cites alarming statistics, noting that only about 20% of donors give a second time, leaving 80% without ongoing engagement.

Alison Fine [23:44]: "The reality is 20% of donors give a second time."

Joan relates this to her experiences, sharing a story about a $250 donor who eventually left a substantial legacy after years of relatively small contributions. This anecdote underscores the missed opportunities when nonprofits fail to engage donors meaningfully from the outset.

Joan Garry [28:11]: "I have a donor at GLAAD who gave $250 solid every year... upon his passing... left millions of dollars to the LGBT community."

The discussion underscores that focusing on retention rather than mere acquisition can lead to more profound and lasting donor relationships, ultimately benefiting both the organizations and their causes.

---

Integrating Values into Fundraising

Alison critiques the dissonance between nonprofits' professed values and their fundraising practices. While organizations strive to embed core values in their governance and programs, these values often do not extend to donor relations.

Alison Fine [09:33]: "The only place that isn't value aligned is the low dollar giving."

She points out that development departments often operate based on what drives revenue, sidelining the organization's broader mission and values. This misalignment creates a culture where donor relationships are transactional, undermining the nonprofit's integrity and long-term success.

Alison Fine [10:08]: "What boards are asking for... can be seen in development offices where the insistence on doing whatever it takes to get cash in the door has corrupted the culture of those places."

---

Every.org: A Joyful Giving Experience

Every.org differentiates itself by offering a platform that fosters joy and ease in the giving process. The platform's intuitive design encourages donors to share their contributions on social media, create personalized campaigns, and engage with nonprofits in a more meaningful way.

Alison Fine [15:25]: "It's just a super fun place to be, and it allows donors to share their donations on the platform and on their social channels."

Joan highlights the platform's ability to make visitors feel like part of a community rather than mere contributors, enhancing the overall giving experience.

Joan Garry [16:22]: "It becomes just simply the methodology I use to make the payment. Really."

---

Challenges and Solutions in the Nonprofit Sector

The conversation delves into broader challenges facing the nonprofit sector, including organizational growth that dilutes focus, difficulty in measuring impact, and the relentless pressure on development staff to acquire funds.

Alison suggests comprehensive solutions that involve not just adopting new technologies but also rethinking foundational fundraising strategies. She advocates for using AI to streamline administrative tasks, thereby freeing up time for nonprofits to engage genuinely with their donors.

Alison Fine [34:54]: "We're going to use both generative AI and other kinds of AI to enable orgs to tell a great story on their profile... free up their time."

She emphasizes the need for nonprofits to audit their fundraising costs, both financial and social, to understand the true impact of their strategies and to prioritize donor retention.

Alison Fine [36:35]: "I would actually start to figure out the real costs of my fundraising... How it happens in systems as well."

---

Future Directions: AI and Relational Fundraising

Looking ahead, Alison outlines Every.org's plans to incorporate generative AI to help nonprofits craft personalized stories and campaigns. This technological integration aims to enhance relational fundraising by making it easier for organizations to connect with donors on a deeper level.

Alison Fine [34:54]: "We're going to help organizations use AI, take apart their development systems and processes and assumptions, get the administrative work off their plate if we can, with AI or just reordering the work that they're doing and free up their time."

Additionally, Every.org plans to serve as an online hub for relational fundraising, providing resources and support for nonprofits to pivot their strategies effectively.

---

Conclusion: Embracing Relational Fundraising for Sustainable Success

The episode concludes with actionable advice for nonprofit leaders. Joan and Alison encourage organizations to:

1. Audit Fundraising Practices: Assess the financial and social costs of current fundraising methods.
2. Prioritize Donor Retention: Shift focus from merely acquiring new donors to nurturing existing relationships.
3. Leverage Technology: Utilize platforms like Every.org to reduce administrative burdens and foster meaningful engagements.
4. Align Fundraising with Values: Ensure that fundraising practices reflect the organization's core values, enhancing authenticity and donor trust.
5. Engage the Board: Educate board members on the importance of donor retention and relational strategies to create a supportive fundraising culture.

Joan Garry [38:45]: "If you can do that, then you actually give me as a donor a big fat gift. You have made me feel valued... an injection of meaning and purpose that I am so fecking hungry for."

Alison echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that treating donors as valued individuals rather than mere revenue sources can transform the fundraising landscape, making it more sustainable and fulfilling for both nonprofits and their supporters.

Alison Fine [38:24]: "Match it up initially with your low dollar fundraising. It won't match up, right? Build a system that matches your values."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Shift from Transactional to Relational: Transitioning to relational fundraising fosters deeper, more meaningful connections with donors.
• Focus on Retention: Prioritizing donor retention over acquisition leads to sustainable fundraising success.
• Leverage Technology Thoughtfully: Utilizing platforms like Every.org and integrating AI can streamline processes and enhance donor engagement.
• Align Fundraising with Organizational Values: Ensuring that fundraising practices reflect core values builds trust and authenticity.
• Empower Development Staff: Reducing administrative burdens allows development teams to focus on nurturing donor relationships.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Alison Fine [03:49]: "My mission is to reshape the entire field of fundraising... to engage with and bring joy to donors."
• Alison Fine [04:35]: "It's six decades of conventional wisdom that the way to get a donation is to just keep asking... until there's no one left to ask."
• Alison Fine [23:12]: "The dehumanizing of the $25 donor is because of the leaky bucket."
• Alison Fine [25:42]: "It is a system built to make nonprofits dependent on that conventional wisdom... It's a broken system."
• Joan Garry [38:45]: "You have made me feel valued... an injection of meaning and purpose that I am so fecking hungry for."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 208 of Nonprofits Are Messy offers a compelling exploration of the need for a paradigm shift in nonprofit fundraising. With Alison Fine's expertise and passion, listeners gain valuable insights into building more sustainable, values-driven, and joyful fundraising practices. By embracing relational fundraising and leveraging innovative technologies, nonprofits can repair the strained dynamics of donor relationships and foster a more vibrant, supportive ecosystem.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

Sit back and get ready to be seriously energized and motivated. Alison Fine has a knack of doing this to people. She is totally joyful about the work she does and what you will find remarkable. And for some of you, perhaps counterintuitive is that her sweet spot is educating folks about how tech can help your organization to build deeper and more lasting relationships with those who enter your ecosystem. Alison believes we make things too hard on ourselves, that we're overly skeptical, risk averse, and as a result, innovative opportunities often pass us by. When I asked Alison, as I often ask guests, what do you think we should call this episode? She didn't hesitate. Let's call it how to make a $25 donor feel like a Million Bucks. Now, I don't know if that's actually what the name of this podcast will be, but I do think that that one sentence will allow us to tease out a lot. From donor stewardship to retention of donors. We're talking about that. To building a donor pipeline, to fueling those who give with the joy that comes with being able to contribute to a cause that means something to you, something that actually touches you as a sector. We pride ourselves in embedding core values in our work with our clients and the communities we serve. But do we embed those values in our relationships with our donors? I think we kind of know the answer to that. At least we know the current answer. Today, with Alison Smarts, energy and passion for the nonprofit sector, let's take a crack at how nonprofits can answer that question differently, bringing joy to everyone in your organization's village. Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know the nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception. Alison Fine is a trailblazing force in the realm of technology for social good. Her expertise and captivating speaking style and she does have that, by the way, have made her a sought after keynote speaker at conferences around the world. Her engaging presentations inspire audiences to embrace tech as a tool for positive change and provide Actionable strategies for harnessing its potential. She's written four influential books that have helped to shape and reshape the nonprofit landscape. Her latest book on the use of artificial intelligence for social good is the Smart Staying Human Centered in an Automated World. It was co authored with my pal Beth Kanter. Alison currently serves as the president of Every.org, a nonprofit that supports a free fundraising platform. Get this. That increases the joy of giving while decreasing the friction. Alison is a friend and a kindred spirit of mine. As a champion of the nonprofit sector, she shares with me an unbridled joy about doing work of real meaning and purpose. Welcome, Alison Fine.

[Alison Fine]

Thank you for having me, Joan. It's a pleasure.

[Joan Gary]

So, Alison, I know you to be a woman with a mission. Pretty laser focused, in fact, and I think you'd agree. So, woman with a mission, what is your mission exactly?

[Alison Fine]

My mission is to reshape the entire field of fundraising, Joan. It is to move us from a default setting of transactional asks, asks, asks for that $25 donation to a brand new 21st century model of engaging with and bringing joy to donors. It's going to be relational, it's going to feel meaningful, and it's going to take the steam out of the pot for all these nonprofits that are on the hamster wheel of transactional giving right now.

[Joan Gary]

How did we get here?

[Alison Fine]

We got here from a lot of practice over 60 years. It's like getting to Carnegie hall, right? Practice, practice, practice, Joan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

It is six decades of conventional wisdom that the way to get a donation is to just keep asking and mailing and now emailing and over and over again until there's no one left to ask. The only one making money, Joan, are all those consultants telling you that's the way it's done, right? That's the conventional wisdom that's been baked into the field.

[Joan Gary]

I wonder if it's. If you think about the big players in the field, are there big? Is it elegant? Does it come from the world of, like, United Way? And like, when you think about the sort of history of our sector, is there something about the history of our sector that pointed us towards transactional giving? Do you think? I'm just, I'm kind of noodling on that question myself.

[Alison Fine]

You know, my first job at a college, Joan, was writing copy for direct mail fundraising, right. I worked for an agency and we had all the organs. We had lung and kidney and heart. And we just kept writing all of those messages of, you know, pitch in 25 bucks or the sky will fall. The consultants, a lot of them came from catalogs. They came from generating the lists to mail the catalogs to.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Alison Fine]

And then they looked over and they saw this field of non profits with enormous lists of donors and said, we could do the same thing. We can sell nonprofits, charities to donors the same way we're selling clothes in the Sears catalog to people over here. That's where it came from.

[Joan Gary]

Or subscriptions to magazines.

[Alison Fine]

Or subscriptions to magazines. Right, right. It was all about supersizing those requests. You make them bigger and bigger and bigger. And at that time, in a very analog world, they all had to be cookie cutter.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

You could only make one request of people. When you're sending this same piece of mail to millions of people, it's the same message. Well then. Right then move forward. And now you've got email and yes, you can segment some of these lists. But the idea is all about going faster and getting bigger.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

And that's where the hamster wheel comes in. Go fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. Get the cash in the door.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. And I think about this too is know in my work I have highly impactful organizations with small budgets and very. And organizations I can't really get my arms around their impact with multi million dollar budgets. That, that, that's not the key, is it? Money is not. I mean, money is the key and it's not. Right.

[Alison Fine]

So look, we have a lot of problems with growth in the sector.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Organizations tend to grow sideways. They add more and more and more programs to what they're doing because they got a grant to do that or a board member likes that program, so they do that. And I've been in social service agencies where they don't even know the number of programs they run. Right. It's just a huge number and it gets, you get spread very thin. And then the development department has to be in the business after that first grant comes through of sustaining all of that work.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

And that's huge. And nothing ever comes off the table once it's on. Right. So that's part of the problem. And of course, measurement is a huge part of the problem. We know how much activity happens in nonprofits. We don't know how much impact they have.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

It's very, very difficult to measure. And again, that requires choosing not to do things, which is very, very hard for organizations that are in the pleasing and the community.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

We like to say yes to people. We like to please boards and staff and donors, especially donors, large donors. And that can make it very difficult to get laser focused like a small organization is, if you just do one thing, it's easier to stay focused on it. Right. If you're running 27 different programs, very hard to stay focused.

[Joan Gary]

Totally. So you talk about tech as a tool for positive change, and as you look objectively at the sector is the biggest, biggest problem, what do you see as the. That the problems or challenges we need to solve for in order to effectively resource the organizations. Is it this shift from transactional to relational giving? Would you say that that's the fulcrum here?

[Alison Fine]

I think it's in part, and you mentioned this a little bit earlier, in a lot of organizations, Joan, the only place that isn't value aligned is the low dollar giving.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Is the development department, which is astonishing. So you have organizations that work so hard to align their values in governance and in programs and even in comms, but you get over to fundraising, and it's whatever it takes to bring that money in. Now, I think there's a direct line in governance to that kind of culture, right?

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Alison Fine]

What boards are asking for, what boards are measuring can be seen in development offices where the insistence on doing whatever it takes to get cash in the door has corrupted the culture of those places. Not intentionally.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

But the result is this pressure cooker for development staffs. And now we see it where we have on average 18 months for development staff staying in their positions.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. That's a terrifying statistic.

[Alison Fine]

Pressure is unrelenting on folks. I have sat in rooms with development directors and I say, who has been in the bathroom crying in the last week because of a board member saying supersize it and every hand goes up.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. And I think that that's a little bit to. What I was going to earlier is that is bigger is not necessarily better. Right. But that boards often, many board members of whom come from the for profit sector, where the more money that comes in the dorm, the more successful you are, that that isn't a measurement of success. And boards put that pressure on development.

[Alison Fine]

Staff, many board members who then don't go out and help them to raise the money.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Joan Gary]

Correct, correct.

[Alison Fine]

This huge tension, the tension of board members saying, show me your growth path.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Show me your sustainability. Show me new revenue streams, things nonprofits aren't set up to do. At the same time, they don't want to ask their friends to give.

[Joan Gary]

So you have had this whole nonprofit blood pushing through your veins since your first gig with the Innovation Network, and today you're part of another innovation Network, aren't you? Part of an exciting, relatively new venture that does in fact, magically integrate all your passions, innovation, tech, and what it takes to resource the nonprofit sector. And in our conversations, it's just been so fun to listen to you talk about how much this venture brings you joy. Now, every.org is not alone in the space of matching donors with organizations to drive giving. So you have the floor, my friend. Tell us about every.org and why you are so downright giddy about this enterprise.

[Alison Fine]

I am giddy about it, Joan. I'm going to tell you exactly why.

[Joan Gary]

I know you are.

[Alison Fine]

We're a C3, right? So we live in this same space with folks. The tech is amazing, right? Created by Stanford grads to be just super fun to use, easy to use. We're actually organized as a donor advised fund. And the reason for that is that we can accept any kind of payment method on behalf of all the nonprofits in the IRS database. So you can give crypto, stock, death cards, bank, whatever, and we turn it into dollars and donors and send it to the organizations. But the thing that makes me happiest about our model is we're not extractive, Joan. We don't take fees for setup or fees for transactions. We don't sell the data. We're funded by foundations like camp.org and the Gates foundation and optional tips by donors. And that's it. It's just beautiful. And it's simple and it allows us to focus on helping organizations, particularly small ones, engage with donors, get the friction out of the system. Right now, that's where we are. Now. In the future, where we're headed is we're going to help organizations use AI, take apart their development systems and processes and assumptions, get the administrative work off their plate if we can, with AI or just reordering the work that they're doing and free up their time. You've talked to Beth. She and I called it the dividend of time. The dividend of time to really talk to your donors.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

How does it feel to give to us? Why did you come here? What's your story as a donor? What would it take for you to reach out to 10 friends and tell them about us? How can we help you to do that? And that's a relationship. That's not selling a seed catalog to somebody.

[Joan Gary]

So what makes a visit to every.org a joyful visit? Because I think you think of it that way, right? When people come, it's not just a transactional. Here are the organizations you sign up. Whatever it is, right? It's Different. It has. It has joy. And I want to know what is. I think that's one of its distinctive qualities. What makes Every.org such a joyful experience for those who visit on either side, whether you're the nonprofit or whether you are the potential funder.

[Alison Fine]

So we have a platform, Joan, that nonprofits can come and make their profile on it and that donors can come and use as well. And just visually, it's just a super fun place to be, and it allows donors to share their donations on the platform and on their social channels. Right. Just push a button and you can share that with the world. You can create your own campaign and allows nonprofits to tell their own story as well and bring their current donors through the system or meet new donors on our platform. So I think it's just an instinctively social place to be, and it's a visually pleasing place to be, and it's just super easy to use. But it's feels so much better than if you've ever given through a DAF platform, Joan. It's like paying your electric bill, right?

[Joan Gary]

Totally.

[Alison Fine]

It has to be more than paying a utility.

[Joan Gary]

It becomes just simply the methodology I use to make the payment. Really. Right. In that. In that sense, I've. Right. Whereas. Whereas I can go to every.org and what I like about visiting the site, seeing, maybe it's because of my Irish DNA, but it's filled with stories.

[Alison Fine]

That's exactly right. Which is. Which is the whole reason for giving. Anytime you hear you read something where people say, I want more data on where my whee went. And I thought, think, well, maybe some people, Joan, they want a story, right? They want to connect their giving to their heart. That's why we give, because it feels good to give. Right.

[Joan Gary]

So there are a lot of places where I, as a nonprofit, can. A lot of sites where I'm asked to go on. I mean, I clearly, I, you know, I need to resource my organization. Right. But I. A lot of places I can go on. And I'm asked to fill out a profile, right?

[Alison Fine]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Can you tell me about. Is. Is this just, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be the skeptic who's listening and saying, okay, I got. I got candid. I got Charity Navigator there. Everybody's asking me for, as we say in Ireland, fecking profiles, right? Like, what is this?

[Alison Fine]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Why. Why fill out this profile?

[Alison Fine]

A few reasons. One, as a nonprofit, we can instantly give you the fundraising infrastructure that only tippity top nonprofits can afford. Otherwise, without us, right? So you are black sisters in stem and Joan, somebody wants to give you stock or give you crypto. Without us, you don't have an easy way to accept that we do all of that work for you. We don't charge you anything for that and just move the donors to you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Alison Fine]

So instantly you can accept all the payment methods that say, the Red Cross can accept without having to buy the software, without having to upgrade anything on your own. Guess what, Joan? Our donors are younger than 45.

[Joan Gary]

They are, they are.

[Alison Fine]

Go and find another platform where the donors are that young. I dare you.

[Joan Gary]

I'm not going to take the dare because I believe you. Secondly, listen up, all of you, because I had a podcast with Tom Kissane from ccs, who's also my second cousin. We must have this whole nonprofit thing in our Irish DNA, too. And the wealth that's coming to the people under the age of 45 off the charts. And combine that with their insistence on values based living, their insistence on meaning and purpose. Right? This is a whole cohort of humans who will go in a job interview and ask a company about their values. I mean, I'm 66. I only needed to know where the restroom was. Right.

[Alison Fine]

Like, and you were lucky if they told you, Joan.

[Joan Gary]

Correct. Why do you need to know? If you get the job, I'll tell you where it is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Alison Fine]

Wait two weeks and maybe if you're still here, we'll tell you where it is.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, go. Before you get to the office.

[Alison Fine]

How dare you use our toilet paper.

[Joan Gary]

Right, but so how did they find you? Like, how do, how do people. How have you marketed every dot org? Maybe that's an interesting thing, is like you, you're finding the fish people, really, you know, you're finding the right pond. How did they find you?

[Alison Fine]

So far, it's largely word of mouth. And because our origin story was these young developers looking for a way to help crypto holders donate. So that's a very young marketplace of folks looking to be very values aligned in their in not only what they give to, but how they give it, Joan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

So the crypto folks want a place that is safe, that isn't going to spam them, that isn't going to sell their data, that gives them these beautiful choices of nonprofits that feels fresh and young. And here we are.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The Nonprofit Leadership lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so Much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast.

[Joan Gary]

I guess we're having a conversation about fundraising and how tech can move you from being transactional fundraisers to relational fundraisers. That sort of counterintuitive sort of idea. Right. And we're talking with Alison Fine, who is the president of Every dot org. She is kind of a woman with a mission around taking tech and making sure that it does social good. She's the author of a number of books, including the smart Nonprofit Staying Human Centered in an automated world. And Every.org is a nonprofit that supports. I like this phrase. A free fundraising platform that increases the joy of giving while decreasing the friction. Let's go back to this. What every.org will make possible. You know, you were joking before about. We were joking before about the 20 how to make a $25 donor fee feel like a million bucks. Well, first of all, regardless of what the platform is, Alison, I have to believe in my kishkas. That's a Yiddish word. I have to believe in my kishkas. That that $25 donor is actually worth a million bucks. Right. And I think that most. Most nonprofit organizations say, okay, 25 bucks. I got 25 bucks. Let's move on. Get me 25,000. So let's talk about that $25 donor, and then I want to talk about what you call the leaky bucket. So tell me about the $25 donor and how we shift all of this.

[Alison Fine]

Yeah. So they're actually connected. The dehumanizing of the $25 donor is because of the leaky bucket, Joan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

So because organizations are so pressed to bring in cash and are so scarcity oriented, they have bought into this idea of spend a ton of money, bring in a thousand donors. You'll lose money on acquisition. But don't worry, those donors will be with you for years, the ones that stay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

And they will pay for itself over time. And the reality is 20% of donors give a second time. So you lost money on acquisition.

[Joan Gary]

20%. I give once.

[Alison Fine]

And then you're out.

[Joan Gary]

I'm out the door 80% of the time. I'm out the door the next time.

[Alison Fine]

Or never to come back.

[Joan Gary]

A quick question, though. Does that include. I guess that includes all giving. Right. Because that includes if I donate to my friend Tamika who's running a race.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And I contribute to Susan B. K. Because she's running that race.

[Alison Fine]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Right. I gave because of Tamika. I didn't really give to Susan B. Komen, did I? So. So the numbers a little. I mean, I. I think. I think our sector is way too dependent on that. And we. Or. Or we don't do a very good job of getting Joan to be connected to Susan B. Komen after she donates on Tameka's behalf.

[Alison Fine]

We don't give Tameka the tools and the capacity to go to Joan and tell you more about why it's important and connect Joan to Susan Bieker.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

So Susan B. Komen is built as a fortress. It's broadcasting messages out everywhere. It's taking Tameka, running her through their system to get the cash in the door, and then spamming the hell out of her. And you, right, you had no interest in the beginning, so you press unsubscribe, you know, day two, you're out. Tameka, unless she's very motivated, will get tired of the same thing, you know, by the end of year one. And so what you do when you have a leaky bucket like that, Joan, and you have all this pressure to get cash in the door, you fill it up again. It keeps leaking, and you fill it up again. Guess who's getting rich? The consultants, Joan. Guess who's getting poor? The nonprofits, Joan. Right.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

It is a system built to make nonprofits dependent on that conventional wisdom and leaking money and donors constantly. It's a broken system.

[Joan Gary]

And our organizations and I have done helped people do development plans over time. And I'll see, or I'll edit a CEO's development plan or something or kick it up a notch. And I'm like, where's the retention stat?

[Alison Fine]

You can't even find it.

[Joan Gary]

It's not even on here. It's like, how many donors are we retaining? And what's the strategy for retaining them? And every.org isn't the strategy, right?

[Alison Fine]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Okay. So it is not currently the strategy. It is actually creating a dividend of time so that I, as the development director, can start to pay attention to a whole world in my donor pipeline that could give again if I just attended to them, if I just stewarded them. Right?

[Alison Fine]

So back to your original question, which is, why don't we love the $25 donor, right? Why do we go right to The I need 25,000? All of this has created a system and a pressure to dehumanize the $25 donor. And we know development people would love to talk to the $25 donor. They're doing their work at 10 o'clock at night and on the weekends, right?

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Alison Fine]

They don't have a second to actually think about donors as human beings, except for the high dollar donors, who they really don't think about as human beings anyway. They just want the next check. So we have a system problem that needs a system solution. And the system solution is tech aided. Not started with tech.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

But tech is augmenting our focus on making real, true human connections, one to one. And I know people who on the periphery of tech or have felt inundated or felt the terrible data extraction of the social media era saying, that's ridiculous. You can't do that. That was tech leading the way. We need people to lead the way now and tech to take away the noise and the friction in the system. But you can only do that if you see a whole system, Joan.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Not just one appeal or one message. It's a whole system that has to change. And that's why I came to every.org to create that system.

[Joan Gary]

So I want to get to the comment yet, but before I do, I am reminded, I can't remember if I told you this story that we had a donor at GLAAD who gave $250 solid every year, and he asked for audited financial statements. And there was this, I don't know what the technical word is for that, but why do I have to send this $250 donor audited financial statements? How hard is that? We don't know anything about this person. That's what he's asked for. Let's send that to him. And year after year, his donation got a little bit bigger, not game changing. And then finally he finally, I don't know what prompted us to actually do some homework on this person who turned out to be Microsoft employee number four, who, upon his passing, a gentleman of, you know, just a wonderful human being gone too soon, left millions of dollars to the LGBT community, including GLAAD at that time. And what I think about when I think about that story is not, you know, like sort of the treasurer and the $250 donor, but that he had to actually ask us, right? He had to tell us what he needed in order to continue to contribute. And I don't think it should be like that.

[Alison Fine]

Well, and if you hadn't been sitting in that seat, Joan, he would have asked and nobody would have answered. He's trying to bend the culture a certain way. He's trying to reset the default settings. So the default settings inside that organization right then was, we're going to tell donors what information they get. They don't get to tell us. They don't get to ask anything.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

And it doesn't work.

[Joan Gary]

Or his gift doesn't warrant. Doesn't warrant the extra effort.

[Alison Fine]

No, no. His gift, meaning him, doesn't warrant.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Because that's a value right there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Alison Fine]

Right. Yes. What's always so astonishing to me, and I have been looking at relational systems, relational fundraising for years. What's always astonishing to me, Joan, is how little effort it takes to do this. How little people want. They want something, right? But it's not a lot. They want you to know their name. They want you to actually thank them for a gift. They want you to remember something about them. And because we have this system problem of development staffs being overwhelmed and being in the leaky bucket.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Of operating within the leaky bucket, even that idea of something that small seems overwhelming to them. And that's the tragedy of all of this, because it is tragic.

[Joan Gary]

Right?

[Alison Fine]

We're leaving a ton of money on the table.

[Joan Gary]

Not only that, is that as you just described, that person who gave money wants to be invited to your party, right? Has said, can I be invited? I'd like to be invited to this party. I want to be a part of this party. And we didn't actually welcome them in. We didn't say, hey, can I get you some sparkling water? You know, it's like if you went.

[Alison Fine]

To Young People and you said, we're going to build an organization, we're going to make it really hard to get in and to like, really humanly get in. Into the inside of this. We're going to not thank you well, for whatever you send. We're going to send you a computer generated tax receipt for a contribution. Is that a system you want to be part of? And the answer, of course, is no. That's no human system anybody wants to be a part of. And it is heartbreaking to see how fundamentally entrenched this leaky bucket culture is within organizations.

[Joan Gary]

Okay, so I want to go back, I want you to tease out, just for a couple of minutes this issue of values. Right? Oh, my goodness.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Joan Gary]

I mean, organizations can should think about the values of their organization. They should live those values. They should live them with the clients and the community they serve. I mean, I've certainly seen many examples of organizations whose values externally do not come to life in their offices, right? How did development get left out of the values conversation? And how do we get them back in?

[Alison Fine]

Money, Joan. Money, money, money.

[Joan Gary]

Money talks.

[Alison Fine]

Money talks. And I think it's intimidating for a lot of senior staff and boards to ask questions about fundraising when they don't understand it well, or it appears that it operates on autopilot over there. And when the answer is so often that's the way it's done. You know, for instance, right? Asking in every communication. This has always bothered me, Joan, in what world would you ask somebody for money, you know, a friend every single time you saw them?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Alison Fine]

Like that would not be a friendship that you would want to keep. And I think a lot of senior staff and boards have felt that this is a technical area that has clear conventional wisdom and success built into it. And we don't touch that. In fact, I was talking to a development director who had come recently into a legacy organization, organization that's over 50 years old. She is a deeply, deeply caring person, brings all of her values of love and compassion to every part of her work. And yet she's got this low dollar fundraising department over on the side. That is dreadful. I mean, it's like if I had to pull out an example, Joan, of like, what not to do to treat people, you know, just the constant churn of letters out and so on. And I said to her, I know your values aligned in everything you do, but why do you let that happen over there? And she stopped and she said, you know what? It was on autopilot when I got here. I just left it. It brings in money. And I said, no, it does not bring in money. You think it looks like it brings in money, but when all the costs of having to get those new donors in year after year and the loss of social capital, when you run through people right, when you don't treat them well, that's costing you. It's over there.

[Joan Gary]

Yes, that is so true. Let's get to every dot org. So you said, we don't do that yet. So what is the. Where are you headed?

[Alison Fine]

So we're going to use both generative AI and other kinds of AI to enable orgs to tell a great story on their profile, to be able to customize that story for donors based on other things that they've liked. We're going to teach orgs, we're going to create a content area on our site for information about relational fundraising, how to make the case internally, to make that pivot.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

How do you go to the board table and tell them, here's how we have to remake fundraising. We got to stop doing some things here. And from the beginning of our conversation, Joan, we'd Already said stop. Stopping doing things is not a nonprofit forte. Right. Asking less often is going to feel risky for organizations.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

That are wobbly to begin with. So we're going to give them the tools, the data, the instructions, the support to be able to make the case internally. And we want to be the online hub for relational fundraising.

[Joan Gary]

I think that is a. That's a terrific North Star, isn't it? No wonder you're giddy. So we're just about out of time. And I guess I want to ask you this question. Let's say I run a million dollar nonprofit, maybe less. There's somebody who runs development, I guess maybe. Right. It is many of the things that you described. Tell me how I should walk away from this conversation and engage with every dot org. What would you do if you were me?

[Alison Fine]

I would actually start to figure out the real costs of my fundraising. Both money out the door. Because if you're not using us, you're spending a lot of money on transactional platforms and software.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Alison Fine]

But also on the retention rates and that social cost. Right.

[Joan Gary]

And so kind of do a bit of an audit of what fundraising is costing me.

[Alison Fine]

Exactly. How it happens in systems as well.

[Joan Gary]

As the opportunity lost.

[Alison Fine]

Opportunity lost. And Joan, we've talked about this before. You know what? Pick up the phone, call 20 low dollar donors and ask them how you make them feel. Why do they stay? What brought them here in the first place? How could they become an ambassador? I know that picking up the phone sounds like a lot of work to somebody. You could do this in two hours of time and you would know more about your donors than you have ever known before, right?

[Joan Gary]

Absolutely.

[Alison Fine]

Then I want to get into that boardroom and I want to reorient what they're asking for in terms of the metrics that they're using for success. That donor retention rate needs to be right on the table. Because I've never been at a board table when they're laser focused on donor retention and just focusing on it. Joan, just raising it and putting sunlight on it will make a huge difference. You don't have to change anything else. You just have to start paying attention to it. Right. Then come to us, create your profile, reduce your costs and start thinking about how you want to tell your story to donors and when you want to ask them for funding.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

Could it be you don't ask them for three months at a time? Could you live with that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Alison Fine]

What might happen? Because if you can get that donor retention rate up, you could start to actually treat all of Your donors like human beings.

[Joan Gary]

There's some like, there's some really good non verbals going here that involve fists up in the air. Just so you know, I can see it.

[Alison Fine]

You can't see a little celebration.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. So I make the. So what I do is I gather information. So I'm an ed. I gather information about the cost of fundraising, the opportunity lost from donor retention. And I go to my board and I say, this is the current way that we approach fundraising and what it costs us. And it is time for us to start to focus on the retention of our donors and have that conversation and storytelling. And let's take a look at this plug, right? And we have found a very interesting option for us that will enable us to have systems and tools that will enable us to actually talk to our.

[Alison Fine]

Donors and to be values aligned the entire way. Statement you have as an organization, match it up initially with your low dollar fundraising. It won't match up, right? Build a system that matches your values.

[Joan Gary]

The other thing, and then I'll let you go. But this is where I am a huge proponent of stewardship programs, board stewardship programs, for exactly this reason, right? It's to exercise the muscle of interacting with donors, asking them questions just like you suggested, to understand their role as ambassadors and storytellers and to have more touch points with donors that don't involve will you renew? Will you upgrade? Will you make a gift of X? Right? If your entire organization is in this business of nurturing, right? Just like you nurture your clients or your community, just like you advocate for your causes, advocate for your donors, right? And this is what this kind of platform is going to make possible. And that is something really joyful. Because if you can do that, and my bet's on you, Alison Fine. If you can do that, then you actually give me as a donor a big fat gift. A big fat gift. You have made me feel valued. You made me feel like I am part of your work. You have given me an injection of meaning and purpose that I am so fecking hungry for. And that's what people miss about fundraising in general. It's such a gift. And so too is your work. I'm delighted to have you with us and I'm excited to see where every.org is going and encourage every single person who's listening today. Fly on over there, Just have a little drive through before you get your ducks in a row to start to really shift the conversation in your organization because it can really make a difference. Alison Fine. Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your work and for decades of investment in really what has been I think really value. It's all about values driven fundraising using technology as a vehicle to allow that to happen. And that's a pretty good jam.

[Alison Fine]

Alison thank you for having me. Joan it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

[Joan Gary]

I couldn't agree more. Great conversation. For those of you who are listening. I hope you enjoyed it. Every.org it's pretty easy to remember. Alison Fine its president. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for the work you're doing. Get out there and tell some great stories and take good care of yourself and we'll see you next time. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find the them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next.