Ep 209: Finding the Courage to Say No

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 209: Finding the Courage to Say No

Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Host: Joan Gary
Guest: Glenda Testone, CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab
Release Date: August 17, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 209 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Gary engages in a candid conversation with her colleague Glenda Testone about a pervasive challenge faced by nonprofit leaders: the struggle to say no. Both Joan and Glenda draw from their extensive experiences in the nonprofit sector to explore why saying no is difficult, the consequences of overcommitment, and effective strategies to navigate these dilemmas.

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The Challenge of Saying No for Nonprofit Leaders

Joan opens the discussion by highlighting the inherent passion and commitment of nonprofit leaders. "Nonprofit leaders are strong and fierce most of the time. Except when they're not," she asserts (00:00). Glenda concurs, identifying the core issue: the reluctance to disappoint those who rely on them. "People rely on us, and we like that. And that means we don't want to disappoint people," Glenda explains (03:43).

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Category Discussions

The conversation delves into four main categories where the difficulty of saying no manifests: Programs, Staff, Donors, and Board Members. Each category is explored through real-life anecdotes and strategic insights.

1. Programs

Glenda shares her experience with the Lesbian Cancer Initiative, a program that served a specific subset of the LGBT community. After losing funding from the Susan G. Komen Foundation, Glenda grappled with the decision to discontinue the program despite its meaningful impact on a small group. "We strung it out too long... supporting this program with no funding, and it wasn't great for anyone during that time," she reflects (09:18).

Key Insight: Glenda emphasizes the importance of timely decision-making. "I think I would have moved more quickly... the kinder thing to do would have been to admit that more quickly, not waste anyone's time, and move to transition participants," she advises (14:14).

2. Staff

Joan narrates a common scenario where an internal candidate undermines a new executive director, creating a toxic work environment. She coaches her clients to assess the "worst thing that could happen if you keep saying yes" versus "if you say no." "What's the worst thing that happens if you say no?" she challenges (16:27).

Key Insight: Evaluating both potential outcomes empowers leaders to make informed decisions. Joan underscores the responsibility of ensuring donor dollars are invested wisely, reinforcing that tough decisions ultimately protect the organization’s integrity (17:57).

3. Donors

Glenda discusses the complexities of dealing with donors who make well-intentioned but challenging requests, such as hosting fundraisers at their homes. She illustrates how such requests can lead to unforeseen burdens on staff and question the return on investment. "Everyone... it's not going to be the donor, it's going to be you or it's going to be a staff member. It's going to be work," she explains (18:33).

Strategy Highlight: Glenda introduces the concept of an inventory of stories—building a repository of past experiences to bolster confidence and credibility when negotiating with donors. "It builds your confidence and your list of... credibility," she states (22:24).

4. Board Members

When donors are also board members, power dynamics intensify. Glenda shares strategies for handling such situations, emphasizing the importance of data and evidence in advocating for or against certain initiatives. "If you give that one more ticket, how is this going to impact Brian?" she questions (31:35).

Key Insight: Building a factual basis through past experiences allows leaders to respectfully decline requests that do not align with the organization's objectives. This approach fosters transparency and maintains trust (24:43).

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Strategies to Overcome the Pleaser Personality

Throughout the episode, Joan and Glenda propose several actionable strategies to help nonprofit leaders assertively say no without compromising relationships or mission integrity.

1. Preemptive Strike

Anticipating common requests allows leaders to establish clear guidelines upfront. Glenda shares how her organization designated specific criteria for complimentary tickets to events, making it easier to decline additional requests without confrontation (40:08).

2. Can You Look Me in the Eye Sniff Test

Joan introduces a practical exercise for leaders: envision a major donor scrutinizing every decision. "Could you look me in the eye at that meeting?" she asks, urging leaders to assess whether their choices align with the organization's mission and sustainability (37:57).

3. Building an Inventory of Stories

Documenting past decisions and their outcomes provides a robust framework for justifying future no's. Glenda highlights how this inventory enhances credibility and supports informed decision-making (22:24).

4. Team Consultation

Engaging the leadership team in decision-making processes ensures collective support and diverse perspectives. Both Joan and Glenda emphasize that leaders do not have to make decisions in isolation, reinforcing the importance of collaborative governance (33:15).

5. Focusing on the North Star

Maintaining a steadfast commitment to the organization's mission acts as a guiding principle when facing difficult choices. Glenda shares a poignant example where honoring a true community member aligned with the mission, despite opposition, underscoring the necessity of prioritizing core values (30:10).

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Key Takeaways

1. Timely Decision-Making: Leaders must avoid prolonged periods of indecision that can strain resources and morale.
2. Clear Criteria: Establishing guidelines in advance helps manage expectations and simplifies the process of saying no.
3. Documentation and Evidence: Keeping detailed records of past decisions fortifies leaders' positions when advocating for or against initiatives.
4. Collaborative Governance: Leveraging the expertise and support of the leadership team fosters a more balanced and effective decision-making process.
5. Mission-Centric Focus: Prioritizing the organization's mission ensures that all decisions contribute to long-term goals and community impact.

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Conclusion

Joan Gary and Glenda Testone conclude the episode by reaffirming the necessity for nonprofit leaders to embrace their role as fierce advocates for their missions. By implementing the discussed strategies, leaders can navigate the complexities of saying no, thereby safeguarding their organizations and the communities they serve. "You have to really be good at saying no... because you're advocating... for your community," Glenda emphasizes (44:23). Joan echoes this sentiment, encouraging leaders to remember their initial passion and commitment as they make tough but essential decisions (48:10).

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Notable Quotes

• Joan Gary (00:00): "Nonprofit leaders are strong and fierce most of the time. Except when they're not."
• Glenda Testone (03:43): "People rely on us, and we like that. And that means we don't want to disappoint people."
• Glenda Testone (14:14): "The kinder thing to do would have been to admit that more quickly, not waste anyone's time, and move to transition participants."
• Joan Gary (16:27): "What's the worst thing that happens if you say no?"
• Glenda Testone (22:24): "It builds your confidence and your list of like. It builds your credibility."
• Glenda Testone (30:10): "We need to put this... we can't forget that."
• Glenda Testone (44:23): "It is really critical."
• Joan Gary (37:57): "Could you look me in the eye at that meeting?"

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Timestamp Navigation

• Introduction: 00:00
• The Challenge of Saying No: 03:43
• Programs Category: 09:18
• Staff Category: 16:27
• Donors Category: 18:33
• Board Members Category: 21:05
• Strategies Discussion: 22:24
• Key Takeaways: 38:20
• Conclusion: 48:10
• Notable Quotes: Scattered throughout

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a crucial resource for nonprofit leaders striving to balance generosity with organizational sustainability. By acknowledging the difficulty of saying no and equipping themselves with practical strategies, leaders can enhance their effectiveness and ensure their organizations continue to thrive in fulfilling their missions.

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For more insights and resources, visit joengarry.com and nonprofitleadershiplab.com/podcast.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

I have spent the majority of my professional life either being a nonprofit executive director or being employed by them as an executive coach and strategic advisor. So, too, has my colleague, Glenda Testone, my consulting partner and CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. We know a thing or two because we have seen a thing or two. Being an executive director is an opportunity, a huge opportunity to be vocal, visible, and a fierce advocate for your clients, your community, your cause. To grab the baton of leadership. To know in your kishkas that you are doing real work of meaning and purpose. People who choose this path are pretty remarkable. I'll own that. I think so, too, Will Glenda. We're strong, fierce, passionate, committed. The work is almost vocational. It inspires me to support the work of these hundreds of thousands of leaders every day. Wait. Should we go back to strong and fierce for a minute? Yeah, let's do that. Nonprofit leaders are strong and fierce most of the time. Except when they're not. Today, it's time for some serious truth telling. With a requisite dose of humor, it's time to put it out there. Nonprofit executive directors have a really hard time saying no. Yep. Today we're going to unpack why this is so. We'll talk about how it gets leaders into hot water, and maybe we'll help you think through some strategies for getting to yes. Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know that nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception. So today it's me and Glenda. All conversation, no interview. Glenda, for the purposes of our listeners, what nonprofit leadership chops are you bringing to this conversation today? You share yours, I'll share mine. Okay.

[Glenda Testone]

Hi, everyone. I have been working in nonprofit my entire career. That's about 24, five plus years at this point. And I started out at GLAAD. I was the. I left as the Senior Director of Media Programs, and that's the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. I went on to the Women's Media center and was their vice president. And then I spent 14 years as the executive director, CEO of the LGBT Community center in New York City. Seen a lot, done a lot.

[Joan Gary]

You've also had some. You've also had some board experience too, right?

[Glenda Testone]

I do. I do. I was the board co chair for Centerlink, which is the national organization of LGBT centers across the country. Country in the globe.

[Joan Gary]

So most of you who listen to my podcast know about my nonprofit chops just know that kind of not a seat at the nonprofit table I have not sat at. And so I offer kind of a three dimensional perspective on this conversation. And so you've got, you know, two pretty seasoned humans who've met a lot of nonprofit EDs over time. So start with the heart of the matter, Glenda. What do you think makes it so damn hard for nonprofit leaders to say no, conceptually? What's the problem?

[Glenda Testone]

Okay. At least one of the problems, there might be more than one, is that people rely on us, and we like that. And that means we don't want to disappoint people. And when you say no, you have to disappoint someone. Even if you say yes to someone else, you usually have to say no to another person and disappoint them. And I think we just hate doing that. So we engage in what I would call some magical thinking that we can do all this stuff and it's just going to work out, but it's not.

[Joan Gary]

Do you think you have to be a pleaser to be a good nonprofit executive director, Glenda?

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, I think pleaser is like, on a spectrum of, Of Right. Where like, jerk might be on one end of the spectrum. You know, pleaser might be on the other end of the spectrum. I think really good nonprofit leaders live somewhere in the middle. They understand we understand we have different constituencies and stakeholders that we're trying to appease, and that means we can't please everybody. I have been most happy and at peace and sane as a nonprofit leader myself, when I have made an explicit decision about who I was going to not please and be okay with that. Like, I really thought about who, who, who in this situation do I want to think I did a really good job because I respect them and I need, I need to do good in that area. And the other people I'm probably going to, I may disappoint. And that's okay. My pleaser self has got to be okay with that.

[Joan Gary]

So you went. I just have to make a note of something you said at the beginning of that last set of comments, which is so there have been days when you were a nonprofit executive director and you were sane. I just want to. I want people to hear that and know that it is possible. Is that true? Is that what you're saying? Are you stating that for the record?

[Glenda Testone]

I'm saying that for the record, yeah. And I think a big part of that was deciding, like, okay, you can't please everybody. So who are you going to try and please and who are you going to disappoint? And in the pleasing category, yourself. Yourself. At the end of the day, when you lay your head on the pillow and you go to sleep, you have to believe you did the right thing.

[Joan Gary]

I think there's another piece to it also. And then we're going to go to some categories of categories. We're going to play a little podcast, Jeopardy. I remember that I read that the head of the Girl Scouts a long time ago was, you know, sort of named the head of Girl Scouts of America, which I guess is soon gonna be called Scouting America and be all of the things. But anyway, that's another podcast. And someone said, how do you like being in charge of the Girl Scouts? And she said, I don't feel like I'm in charge of anything because I think the power comes from around me. It comes. Right. And so she actually talked about this concept of being sort of in the middle, surrounded by people who have different elements of skin in the game or stakeholders. And that. That is this kind of wheel that makes it hard because you want to please all of these people and. And you need them all in some way, shape or form.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

All right, so there are four categories to this, because we have to. We have to bring this whole pleaser thing to life and maybe offer listeners not only the opportunity to see themselves in these case studies, but also offer an opportunity for you to think about how you might approach this a little bit differently. So our categories are staff, board, program donors. Would you like to pick a category, Glenda?

[Glenda Testone]

I would. Let's see. I'll go with programs for 100. Joe.

[Joan Gary]

Uh, okay, so. But here's the thing is on this Jeopardy, I get to ask all the questions. Oh, okay. So your answer doesn't have to be in the form of a question, because my question is in the form of a question, and I just. I'm almost confused.

[Glenda Testone]

So you're breaking the rules.

[Joan Gary]

All right, tell me a story. Tell me the story of a decision you made or didn't make about a program in your organization that didn't quite fit.

[Glenda Testone]

So there was. We had a program that served. So we served the LGBT community. This program served a subset of that community, and it happened to be lesbians with cancer. It was called the Lesbian Cancer Initiative. It served a pretty specific, Thankfully, I guess, pretty small subsection of the community. It was funded by one source that was the Susan G. Komen Foundation, I believe. And pretty early on in my tenure, like, within the first two or three years, we lost that funding. And it was challenging because we didn't want to say no to lesbians with cancer, even though it was a very small number of people that were taking advantage of this program. And it took, I have to admit, quite a while for us to work through it and figure it out. And we were supporting this program with no funding, and it wasn't great for anyone during that time.

[Joan Gary]

How roughly. How long from the time you lost funding to the time you made a decision? Just roughly. Just trying to figure out how long was limbo?

[Glenda Testone]

Limbo is probably like six to nine months maybe. And, you know, working at a community center, we get a lot of. We got a lot of money from the government, so cash flow is always an issue. This was not insignificant to. For us to think about, but we. We didn't want to say no. We didn't want to admit the funding is gone. We can't afford to do this program because we didn't want to say no to these really amazing people who are dealing with a challenging situation. So we strung it out too long, I think.

[Joan Gary]

So I'm actually curious, when you first started at the center and you did an assessment of the programs that were offered, did you. Did you believe that the program fit when you were. When you had looked at the portfolio of programs? It seems to me that the loss of funding was the catalyst for your assessment and the actual sort of elimination of the program. And we'll get. Briefly. We'll get to how you did that in a second. But I just wonder, if the funding had continued, would you have continued to say yes?

[Glenda Testone]

Yes. Okay. I mean, I have to be honest. Yeah. I think. Here's the thing.

[Joan Gary]

I'll say, why not go look for other funding then?

[Glenda Testone]

There was no other funding. We really. I remember at the time, like, please, can we find some other funding? And I went to. There was, like, one at Callen Lord maybe that also got this funding. I was like, where do you get your funding for, like, lesbian cancer stuff? And they're like, susan G. Komen, yeah, we got it. They got it the year that we lost it. And so that also was helpful to me. They are an LGBT health Center specifically. And so I felt like, oh, you know, that makes sense. Y'all know, more like, we can provide a support group, but we are not doctors at the center. We're a community center. So, yeah. So I really. I didn't know if the program fit in a community center. It's hard to say.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

Provides the perfect excuse for not saying no, because you can make it. And this is true of a lot of nonprofits I've seen, where you're like, well, we support this community, and you can really define that to be so many different things. But I did think that this program stuck out a little bit. It wasn't like our usual bread and butter or sweet spot. It was not serving a lot of people. It seemed to be dwindling. The numbers of people participating were dwindling, and the funding was certainly not robust. It was really a shoestring.

[Joan Gary]

So one of the things that this story reminds me is that you don't. If you're listening, as you're listening to this, you might be thinking, yeah, I get that for a community center. But it's different in my shop. It's not really different in your shop, that there are always ways you can say, oh, you know, that kind of fits. That kind of fits. So you really have to look with a really keen eye about the kind of impact. And I think, Glenn, what you said about the numbers dwindling, which could obviously be seen as a very good thing, right? As a way of saying, is this having an impact? That's one. And then the second one, I think you brought up, Glenda, which is, if we don't do this, is there someone else for whom it is a better fit? And I believe that's a question not nearly enough nonprofit organizations ask themselves. And you actually did ask yourself that after the funding ran out. And so just what became of that initiative?

[Glenda Testone]

So we worked with the staffers and that was running that program to identify all the current participants and to have conversations with them about where they would go to get the support. It turned out a lot of them said, you know, we're hearing that some of the more mainstream options are being LGBT friendly, and we could actually try going there, which was not the case five, 10 years ago. And then Callen Lorde, which is LGBT specific, did get some of this funding to do this work, and so there were places for those folks to go. We ended up laying off the staff person after identifying places for the participants to go. And we did say, hey, we rent rooms at the center. So if there is someone who feels like this needs to be here, we will figure out a discount. We will. We will rent a room. We just can't afford to employ a staff person anymore in this for this program.

[Joan Gary]

So we're going to go on to the next category in a moment.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay.

[Joan Gary]

If you had to do it differently, if you had to do it again, what might you have done differently?

[Glenda Testone]

I think I would have moved more quickly, and I think that tends to be the case. There are very few situations where I think, you know what? I should have moved more slowly. That tends to not be the case in nonprofit. But there are a couple of instances where I'm like, you know, I should have moved more quickly. Like, the writing was on the wall. We were just trying to rearrange this in a way that made it work, and there was no way to make it work. So the kinder thing to do would have been to admit that more quickly, not waste anyone's time, and move to transition participants.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I think that's right. And when we get to our other categories, I think the moving too slowly probably will be a theme. So now do you want to play Ken Jennings this time?

[Glenda Testone]

I do. Joan, what category would you like to choose?

[Joan Gary]

I'm gonna choose. I'm gonna choose staff. Okay, great.

[Glenda Testone]

Tell me a story. Tell me your story of whoa.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, it's actually good. Story of whoa. So I'm actually not gonna be quite as specific. I'm going to tell a story that I hear more often than not. Executive director gets the job is an internal candidate person who applies, stays on, working as hard as possible to undermine the new leader. To illustrate to everyone, especially the board, that they picked the wrong person. This staff person becomes toxic. The staff person needs to be managed out, and the new ed can't do it. So I'm coaching, and I say, what's the worst thing that happens if this person stays? And the client answers like that and says, oh, the worst thing that could happen is if person Y leaves because they feel like it's a toxic culture. Right. And very clear that would be the worst thing. So, like, a month later, I mean, it doesn't. I don't have any magic powers. But a month later, that person left. The worst thing that could happen had happened.

[Glenda Testone]

And.

[Joan Gary]

And I said, so. I think it's actually, for me, there are several components in these situations. One is asking yourself, what's the worst thing that happens if you keep saying yes?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Right. And what would be the worst thing that happens if you say no? Both of those. You have to ask both of those questions to yourself and you have to be clear eyed about it. And if you are too kind of hung up in the emotional connections of all of this and the pleaser thing, find somebody to help you through it faster. I think that's a coach can only move people a certain distance so quickly. Right. So I wish that I had been able to move that client to a place where person y didn't leave, that the ed made the move sooner. You know, I do think that we get caught up and we don't actually play out what could happen if you continue to say yes and what would happen if you say. If you say no. And I think your example actually tying back to the other category is an example of that. If you keep saying yes to the program initiative, you're spending money you don't have.

[Glenda Testone]

Exactly.

[Joan Gary]

It's pretty easy. Right. And what is your obligation and responsibility as a nonprofit executive director? It's many things, including, but not limited to ensuring that your dollars, your donor dollars are invested wisely.

[Glenda Testone]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

So I just think that's so. I think there are about a million stories regarding staff. Right. People, someone who says they're unhappy and they get prom. Somehow or another, they get promoted in order to keep them happy. Like they're the people go to with their staff to try to say yes, to try to avoid saying no, to try to make sure the board doesn't think there's too much attrition, whatever it might be. You think about all of these things, they're all swirling around in your head right now, aren't they? Yeah. Glenda, it's your turn again. Pick a cat.

[Glenda Testone]

Excellent. I'm going to pick donors.

[Joan Gary]

Donors.

[Glenda Testone]

Donors for 400, Joan.

[Joan Gary]

Okay, story.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay, story. So I'm going to be more vague in this because this is a culmination of a lot of different donors and a lot of different situations that I've dealt with over the years. So donor who may or may not be a board member also says, I have a great idea. I want to host a fundraiser at my house.

[Joan Gary]

I love that. No board members. When they say that, don't you just want to say yes?

[Glenda Testone]

That's so kind. They owe your house. Oh my gosh. That's so generous. Thank you so much. But then they say the thing that you know is like exactly opposite, and they say, it won't be any work at all. It won't be any work at all for you or your staff. I'm going to handle it. I'm going to handle it. I'm I'm just. You all just show up. But then of course, you get into it and it turns out that they need volunteers. It. And who are those volunteers going to be if not staff or volunteers that you actually recruit and train? It turns out that they might have had a handful of people they wanted to invite, but they want to know what, where's the, where are the RSVP's? Why aren't more people coming to this? And you think, wait, I thought you were handling this. So now we have to send out invitations and, and encourage, slash, make people go to this event at your house. And then when the actual event happens, inevitably something comes up where it's like, well, who's going to do that? And guess what, everyone. It's not going to be the donor, it's going to be you or it's going to be a staff member. It's going to be work. And it may or may not actually result in funding and support for your organization. In the best case scenario, it does, but in many other scenarios it doesn't. And this person, bonus, may feel like you failed and the staff failed if this event that they wanted to do and said they would handle is not a complete success in their eyes.

[Joan Gary]

So stay with me on this one because I want to go back. This donor is also a board member, is that correct?

[Glenda Testone]

Sure. That's happened. Yeah, absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

When, how is it different when it's a board member, Glenda?

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, it's harder. I mean, yeah, it's harder because this is someone who's already invested in the organization. They're giving their time, they're part of the group. If you're an executive director or founder, that, that is technically your boss. And so you, you find yourself in a sticky situation if this starts to go a particular way. That is, that is challenging because you want to be able to stand up for the organization and say, oh, I don't know if this is the best idea. Let's look at the return on investment here. But if the board member, the donor loves this event and they think it's a really great idea, it's really hard to argue against that.

[Joan Gary]

Yep, power dynamics are at play here. And when it's a board member as well, I mean, it's a double whammy if the donor is also a board member. Right?

[Glenda Testone]

Correct.

[Joan Gary]

And you said something interesting as we were, as we were talking about this last week, something about building an inventory of stories that build your capacity to say no. So maybe you couldn't say no to this board member who wants to host an event, right. Like, talk more about what you mean by this inventory of stories and its impact on you.

[Glenda Testone]

So I think, especially when you start a job or when you found an organization, when it's the beginning of your tenure, whatever that tenure looks like, it's harder to say no because you don't have a lot of background and evidence built up to say, hey, this is worth my time, or this is worth the organization's time. And this is not. So in the beginning, I found myself, and I bet many people do this as well, saying yes to things that I very quickly would feel like, oh, gosh, this is not a good use of my time. I would not do this again. And here's why. And so this situation with the board member is a situation where, because this is a board member, you may have to say yes. But then that gives you data and evidence about how it actually played out and how it actually went, both quantitative and qualitative. So then you have the numbers to go back and show that person, if they come back next year and say, hey, let's do that event again. And you can say, listen, here's how it went. We did that event. And you know what? It took four staff people for two solid days to make this event happen at your house, and it only raised $5,000. Here's the, you know, here. Here's the expenses. Here's the revenue. No one can deny this was not worth it.

[Joan Gary]

It's about building up the experiences so that there's. So that you can. More effective. You can potentially say no. Right. I also think that coming from a place of curiosity with board members can be really helpful. So last year we did this event with another board member, and here's how it went. Right. Do you think. How do you know when you hear all of that, what do you think about the use of staff time, the return on investment? If you were running the show, what would these numbers tell you?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, yeah, right. That's a great way to do it.

[Joan Gary]

I think it can be also a very good way. And the other thing that's cool about your idea of the inventory of stories is not just about data, but it's also. Does it not also just build your confidence to be able to say no?

[Glenda Testone]

It does. It builds your confidence and your list of like. It builds your credibility. You get something. You remember, I did say yes to that, and I didn't know if it was a great idea. And here's my assessment now, having done it, I didn't think it was a great idea. And I don't think we should do it again. And here's why. So it does. It builds your confidence, your credibility. I do think sometimes I found myself in situations where I could not make the case to say no well enough to actually prevent the thing from happening. And so we ended up having to do it. And that was okay, I think, because that just prove to myself and hopefully the other person, hey, this wasn't the best idea. Let's not do this again.

[Joan Gary]

This credibility thing, I think. Is this building up your credibility?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Is a. Is a really important point. And I'm keeping track of the action items and we'll summarize them at the end here. But I. I think that that's really important. I have another example. We don't have to play Jeopardy. Anymore. I think we got the idea here. Another one that's actually. That used to happen actually to me quite was it's time for your annual gala and people come looking for comp tickets.

[Glenda Testone]

Oof.

[Joan Gary]

Always the case of the comp ticket. I found this very hard to say no.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes. I know.

[Joan Gary]

Very hard. If it was like honorees or like, you know, maybe a donor may give it a significant enough level that a certain number of tickets were then part of that. But then, then there were. There were always this. But I also have this. And there was some kind of a thread. There's somebody who might be able to A, do some pro bono work for your organization. B, might lead you to a donor, might be a big donor. There's like four or five different paths that this comp take would lead to. And I knew in my heart that. That first of all, that they shouldn't be comped. And secondly, that the likelihood of those things happening, honestly, if any of those things were going to happen, that person would have paid for a ticket.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

And so I had a hard time saying no. And so I. I don't know how you handled this, but I learned how to punt. And so my development director had no problem saying no. And so I simply would say there is an allocation, a very minimal allocation of comp tickets. Or maybe I would say, you know, I don't actually know about comp tickets. You're going to have to talk to Julie. Right. Yeah. And I was perfectly comfortable deferring her judgment. Deferring to her judgment on that because it was going to be better than mine. And I knew it.

[Glenda Testone]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

And you talked about something about like, you don't have to go it alone. And that when I told that story. Story to you and we were talking. You actually said that. And I talk a little bit more about that.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. I think this is one of the benefits of nonprofit. I, I learned the longer I did this work, both on the board and on staff, there's rarely a situation where you have to make a decision alone. And that can, that can be a really good thing, you know, because it allowed me to say, like, if someone came to me and said, I want a comp ticket, I thought immediately of the events person, the person doing the event who's just trying to build a great event and raise money for the organization. And I was like, you know what? I'm not in the weeds on this. There are people that are living and breathing this event. I need to talk to them. So it was usually the development director and the events person and see if this makes sense. Because if it doesn't, I'm not going to betray. I wouldn't say this to the person. I'm not going to betray them. To give you this comp ticket like this needs to make sense for the overall objectives. It's not about you individual. It really is about the people that are working on this day in and day out. So I very often said, you know, I appreciate the question. Thank you for coming to me. I need to talk to the team. My mom was a social worker, so I start with a thank you. Thank you for coming to me. And let me. I'm going to talk to the team and get back to you. You don't need to be specific, you know, and if this is someone who was connected to a board member or someone else, I'd be like, hey, Bob, Joe's asking for a ticket. And, you know, he can afford a ticket. Can you talk to him? That's another option.

[Joan Gary]

There's another thing to be thinking about here, about your events person. Right. Is if you want. See, sometimes you can redirect your advocacy and pleaser stuff in the correct direction. Right. So here, Glenda, think about that. Right? Right. Are you going to get in the way of the success of your special events director?

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

Are you going to thwart their success? What does that do to their job satisfaction? It doesn't make it go up.

[Glenda Testone]

Nope.

[Joan Gary]

You can have pleaser personality, and you can take that and combine it with. With your fierce advocacy and advocate for the right people or the right stuff. And one of the things we have not talked about, Glenda, is the North Star. That is the mission of your organization. Right. And what. How much of an advocate are you for that? And I'm going To guess there have been times when you have made tough calls because of your focus on that North Star.

[Glenda Testone]

That is absolutely true. I can think of a time when we had a really big honoree for our gala and the co chairs were making the argument we shouldn't have any other honorees. And I had to push back and say, no, this is not. We're a community center. It's not just about this one person. If we don't honor someone who's actually a member of the community, I think we're missing the mark. And ultimately that worked and I was able to advocate for that. But I agree with you, Joan. It is about figuring out who are you going to advocate for and those seemingly simple questions. Oh, come on. I sponsor this for $25,000. Can I please just get one more ticket? I really would think about, if I give that one more ticket, how is this going to impact Brian?

[Joan Gary]

How is this going to.

[Glenda Testone]

Going to impact Roger? How, you know, like, what, is this going to throw everything off? Because that's not worth it to me.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

I'm the one that has the power over Roger or Brian, and I want to make sure that I'm protecting the very, very good job that they're trying to do. So sometimes I had to say no to that donor.

[Joan Gary]

So there the. So I want you to be hearing in all of this that, that you don't have to shut off who you are.

[Glenda Testone]

No.

[Joan Gary]

In order to be really good at your work, which, by the way, also means you have to be good at saying no. I also, I wanted to follow up on this team thing. I think it's an excellent strategy. And I have clients who say yes to their boards without saying, I'll go back to my team. Right. We should do a, you know, we should do. The board says, we should do a across the board program assessment. And the board member and the. And the. The executive director sees the person as a boss and says, got it. You got it. Program assessment. And goes back to a leadership team who, you know, they have. Are they just filled with head explosion emojis? Like, where. When are we going to do that? Like, that's not a bad idea conceptually. But did you just say yes to the board about that? Like, that's crazy, Tom, you know, So I think it's. Another piece of it is that there are executive directors who think that saying I have to go back to the team is some illustration of weakness, when in fact it's exactly the opposite.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. And confession, Joan. I think when I started out as an executive director. I would say yes sometimes because I felt like I couldn't say no, knowing that I was going to have to circle back, which wastes everybody's time and energy, and say no. Over time, I learned the better option in those cases where it felt really hard to say no was to at least insert a pause, to at least say. And one of the ways that I absolutely did that was to say, you know what? The program team is working so hard right now. I just. I need to circle back with them and make sure they would have time to do that. This. Maybe it's not this month, maybe it's at the end of the year, maybe it's the next month. You know, anything that can insert a little, like, let me give you a window into what's going on over here. And I need to consult these people that would actually be engaged in this program analysis before I say yes to it. Always, always a good idea. You could then go back and maybe the team's like, oh, great, we've been waiting for a program analysis. This is wonderful. Is the board going to give us some money for that? Fantastic dick, you know, but maybe not. Maybe their. Their heads are exploding and you don't want to say yes too soon.

[Joan Gary]

Let's talk for just a minute about middle ground. This is the place, I believe executive directors believe that. Want to believe that in every situation there's some middle ground between saying yes and saying no. Nope, there isn't. Right? Not all.

[Glenda Testone]

Not always. No.

[Joan Gary]

But pleasers are hungry for middle ground, don't you think?

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to have a rule that my staff used to say to me, we're going to do this thing. We're going to try to, like, make a decision between one thing or the other. And you can't. The answer can't have and. Or. But there can be no, like, no run on sentences. The answer is yes, period, or no, period. Like, you can't make it. You can't manifest a middle ground that does not exist. Because I would always want to. I would want to try to find a way where everyone could be happy, which is. Is so often not the case.

[Joan Gary]

Right. And what a nice story that is about the team of people you assembled that they could actually call you out on something that was maybe, you know, like a little pain point for you.

[Glenda Testone]

Spot on. Absolutely true. And they were right. I would then look back and I'm like, oh, yeah, I totally. I just. I just slapped those two things together to try and make both groups of people happy. But the reality is we have to make a choice. And the person paid to make that choice is. Is the leader. You don't have to do it alone. You can do it with the team. You can do it with your board partner. But a decision has to be made. You can't avoid it.

[Joan Gary]

I'm thinking the people who are listening are feeling really, really seen right now.

[Glenda Testone]

I hope so.

[Joan Gary]

I'm hoping so, too. So I'm thinking that people are feeling really seen right now. And I want to take what we've just talked about and summarize it in a way that you can, as a listener, kind of capture some of these strategies, file them away, take no notes if you are driving, please. And I'm gonna lead with one. Actually, we didn't mention, and it is called the can you look me in the eye sniff test. So in this quite real exercise, I am coaching someone to let a person go. It's clear the person must go, but my client can't do it. And I say to them, okay, I want you to pretend that I am a big donor to your organization. And I have actually decided maybe you don't like that I restricted the funding, but that I want to fund this position for a full year. And my only request is that we meet, like every eight weeks or just a quick email or zoom or something to tell me how that person is, how that person is really adding impact to the organization. And then I say to my client, could you look me in the eye at that meeting? And the answer is inevitably, no, I could never look you in the eye. I do that exercise, by the way. Think about that with your staff meetings.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

If I decided to underwrite the total cost of the time value of money of your staff meetings for the year, and I asked you to check in with me every quarter, would you be able to look me in the eye? It's a really good. It's. It's a. It's a pretty good thing to frame, to use. So let's. Let's recap some of the things we talked about. Glenda, what stands out for you?

[Glenda Testone]

I think the pause is a big one for me, especially if you're a new leader and this is a challenge for you. It doesn't mean you have to say no immediately, but it gives you some time and space from the person or from the situation to really think about it, talk to other people, and make a better decision. I think that's one of the things I would take away from this conversation.

[Joan Gary]

There's something else we didn't exactly talk about that. I'm going to add to the takeaways. I don't know if that's fair or not, but it's my podcast. Of course, I have to remember what it is. It's called the preemptive strike. So board members are going to recommend that you do new events. It's just gonna happen, right? Donors are gonna do it. So how do you get out in front of it as a new board member or something? I don't know that having an event at my house would be a bad idea. So how do you introduce maybe at the beginning of a year what the fundraising plan is for the year? And rather than saying, please don't come to us with any ideas for special events, Maybe it's a quick five PowerPoint slide deck that says, here are the criteria for what has to be true for us to do an event at your home or something like that. So get out in front so that you then have something to be able to fall back on later if the person comes to you to ask. Because then you can say, remember how we talked about the special event strategy? Oh, yes, right. And it's a different way from the next item that you talked about, which is building an inventory of stories that give you data and confidence.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. That's a big one. And another quick example on that preemptive strike, when it came to the comps, what we ended up doing, because we knew it became like, we know this is going to happen, so why don't we just have a plan to deal with it ahead of time? Why do we have to wait until people come and ask us? So eventually we got to a place where we would sit down and say, who is not in the room that we, the organization, would want in the room? That would be really beneficial. And sometimes that was folks in the media, sometimes that was community members that could not afford to buy tickets. And we would say, okay, we're going to have a comp table. We have 10 seats. Who are those 10 seeds going to go to? And then we would explicitly decide, you know what? It's going to go to Trans Elders, because they can't usually afford a ticket and they're part of the community and we want them to be there. That made it a lot easier than when a donor came and said, hey, can I have a free ticket? To say, actually, we don't give a lot of free tickets, and we've already given them to these folks because they can't afford a ticket. So preemptive strike. And then building you know, saying yes sometimes to build your confidence and your data, to be able to say more strategically no in the future is really wise.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. And. And I think your point about new new executive directors is really important, that it does take a while to create a not. Not a reservoir of goodwill, but a reservoir of credibility. Yes.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

[Joan Gary]

So you need a little bit. You need a little bit of credibility in your tank, and the inventories of stories can actually begin to build that for you. So I think that's another important thing that Glenda picked up. Don't go it alone right now. I, of course, I think I was sort of a coward and passed it to Julie, but I think you can also go back and say, I want to talk to my team because they're really good at their jobs. They know so much more about whether we can do this now, what makes most sense. So let's work on this together. I think that's important. And you talked about this idea of certainly when you're brand new, bored as boss, making it hard to say no. And I do think if you actually really do aspire and try to build towards thought partnership with your board chair, this will help a lot. A lot, a lot. Because you don't have to be the only one that carries the word no in your pocket. So that's a different kind of a team. But I also think paying a lot of attention to the power dynamics is really, really important and really reframing it. I remember saying a client one time saying, the minute I stopped thinking that I had 14 bosses and that I had thought partners and, you know, a chair who is a co pilot, all of those things, like, it felt different. I felt completely different about how I engaged with them. So I think that's really important. I think this idea of what's the worst thing that could happen? And if you can't get out of your own way, find somebody to have that conversation with. What's the worst thing that could happen if I say no? What's the worst thing that can happen if I say yes?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And yeah. So I think there's some really good strategies there.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. The last one, I would add a combination of something you said and I said, I think is there are situations where despite our desires, there isn't a middle ground and we shouldn't waste time trying to look for it. And we have to decide who are we going to disappoint. And it's better to actually proactively and explicitly decide that than it is to just kind of go along and then you wind up disappointing people that you feel like you can't. You couldn't afford to disappoint. Maybe in the beginning that you're bored, and over time, as you build confidence and credibility and, you know, maybe then you can make different decisions and disappoint other people. But being explicit about that, I think is really. Is really critical.

[Joan Gary]

Your comment about disappointing leads me to actually what I think is the overriding framework that is important for every nonprofit leader to be thinking about when they're deciding between the yes and the no, which is what is in the best interests of the clients we serve, the community we advocate for, or the cause we hold dear. Right. That. That you can't disappoint that group of people.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

You cannot. If you. If you disappoint them intentionally over and over again, it is time to get a new job.

[Glenda Testone]

Yep. Absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

Right. So when you think about these things piecemeal, I don't want to disappoint the. The donor. I don't want to disappoint the. The board member, the staff member, whoever it is. Think about the people you serve. Do you want to disappoint them? Of course you don't. And that's when you can add fierce advocate. That's when you can exercise that muscle that you have that you're so good at. Right. To enable you to say no, because you're advocating. You came to this job to advocate for those people, for that cause, for that community, and you actually. You can't let them down.

[Glenda Testone]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. I remember one time, there were. One time I had a. Was facilitating a board retreat years ago, and we had done this exercise where we tried to bring clients into the room through storytelling. It was a very good exercise thing for another day. But there were names of real clients and stories of real clients. And after each story got told, I took a big post. It put it on the wall with the name of that person. And so it was a way to bring the clients into the room. And so when the board retreat devolved into something that I was trying to facilitate the way out of, I would say, well, what do you think? What do you think Kai would think about this board meeting right now? Right. Would they think we were talking about the right things at the right altitude? And it's. So it is really, really useful for you and everyone. Right. For you to remind people every single day that that's what you're in the business of doing.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

And that that comes first and that that's what you're paid to do. And that's actually, you know, if it's a calling, that's what you, you know, that's kind of the vocation thing. Right. So I've really enjoyed this conversation, and I found it very pleasing.

[Glenda Testone]

Did we say yes more than we said no? I don't. I don't know.

[Joan Gary]

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But one of the things, you know, as I said. Right. Just in closing. Thanks, Glenda. I appreciate the chat. I think it was. I found it useful to be reminded, and I think it'll be super helpful as I think about how I coach folks. And I do hope that everybody who's listening actually has grabbed some of these, Grabbed onto some of these strategies and really think about how you can incorporate them, because I know you have this problem. So these are some of the antidotes. And remember, remember, like, when you decided you wanted to do this job, you were really excited about the opportunity. Opportunity, the possibilities and the potential. And you just really need to remember that there are a whole lot of people counting on you to do. To do well. And if that means saying no, then that's what it means, right?

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. Your last point, Joan, is the most important point, hands down. And nothing builds your credibility more to be able to do more good work for your organization than standing up for the mission and the clients and the community saying no. We need to put this. This is the North Star. We can't forget that. And every time you say no because of that North Star, you will build fans and supporters who think, wow, that person's really strong. To be able to say no to those powerful people because this would be bad for the organization, bad for the community, bad for the clients. That is is the number one takeaway I'm walking away with.

[Joan Gary]

And so we will walk away now. And no goodbye, no more. Yes. This was a good conversation. I hope you found it useful again. I. I really do hope. I think that some of the strategies we talked about today could be really helpful to you as you navigate the. As you try to find the antidote to the pleaser personality that pops up at sometimes some of the most inopportune moments. So, Glenda, thank you again.

[Glenda Testone]

Thank you, Joan.

[Joan Gary]

All right, for all of you who are listening, have a good day, stay well, and thanks for the work you do every day. We'll see you next time. The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by.

[Glenda Testone]

Joan Gary and is the world's best.

[Joan Gary]

Online community for leaders of small nonprofits.

[Glenda Testone]

Learn how to raise more money, build.

[Joan Gary]

The board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other resources at joengary. Com. Hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.