Ep 210: Scaling Social Impact: Strategies for the Small Nonprofit (with Scott Curran)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 210: Scaling Social Impact: Strategies for the Small Nonprofit (with Scott Curran)

Introduction

In Episode 210 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Garry delves into the crucial topic of scaling social impact for small nonprofits. Joined by esteemed guest Scott Curran, a corporate attorney and social impact consultant, the conversation explores strategies to prevent nonprofit failure, enhance leadership, and effectively grow organizations within the challenging nonprofit landscape.

Understanding Nonprofit Challenges

Joan initiates the discussion with a startling statistic: "One third of all Nonprofits fail within 10 years" (00:00). She emphasizes that while various factors contribute to this high failure rate, financial instability often stands out as the primary culprit. Highlighting that 30% of the 1.5 million nonprofits in the US operate with budgets under $100,000, Joan probes into the vulnerabilities of smaller organizations and the levers that can safeguard them against failure.

Scott Curran’s Journey and Beyond Advisors

Scott Curran shares his professional trajectory, transitioning from a corporate lawyer to a leader in philanthropy. He recounts, "I was moving beyond this incredible experience I was so fortunate to have stumbled into through a series of happy accidents" (05:29), illustrating his passion for merging corporate expertise with social impact. At Beyond Advisors, Scott focuses on simplifying and scaling impact for cross-sector clients, leveraging his diverse experience to assist nonprofits in navigating growth stages effectively.

Navigating Unexpected Philanthropic Gifts

A significant portion of the conversation addresses handling substantial, unexpected grants, such as those from Mackenzie Scott. Scott likens receiving such donations to "winning the lottery" (10:19) and underscores the importance of preparedness. He advises organizations to have a clear vision and strategy to utilize these funds effectively, stating, "there's so much of what I do focuses on strengthening the core of any great organization" (12:35). This proactive approach ensures that nonprofits can transform significant gifts into sustainable growth rather than temporary boosts.

Identifying Barriers to Scaling

Joan and Scott explore the primary obstacles that prevent nonprofits from scaling. Scott attributes failure to a "weak core" and a lack of a *"predictable, reliable path to success" (14:02). He introduces his framework, BOPP, standing for Board, Operations, Programs, and Partnerships, as a diagnostic tool to identify areas needing improvement. He elaborates, "Every organization has the ability to answer that question...to drive any car up any hill" (16:52), emphasizing that a strong foundational core is essential for sustained growth.

The BOPP Framework Explained

Scott breaks down the BOPP framework, detailing each vertical:

1. Board

   • Importance of a dynamic and engaged board.
   • Scott praises Joan’s expertise, stating, "Joan, you are perhaps the greatest leader in our sector on dynamic, sound, scalable and sustainable board growth" (37:52).

2. Operations

   • Focus on Human Resources (HR) as the backbone.
   • Includes finance, marketing, IT, and communications.
   • Scott notes, "humans are our greatest resource... spending time investing in HR is always worthy of it" (36:15).

3. Programs

   • The core mission and the work done to impact the community.
   • Scott emphasizes the necessity of unique and effective program delivery: "Whatever your program work is, that is your programs, that is what you do in the world to make it a better place" (37:10).

4. Partnerships

   • Collaboration with funders, other organizations, and community partners.
   • Vital for expanding reach and resources: "Partnerships is everybody you work with, who feeds your work and who puts inputs into the work that your programs produce an output for" (38:34).

The Critical Role of Communications

Joan and Scott discuss the often-overlooked importance of communications within nonprofits. Scott asserts, "Communication impact. Storytelling through a communication strategy is critically important to every single organization that wants to survive and make it past that 10 year mark" (46:04). Effective communication transcends all four BOPP verticals, driving mission clarity and stakeholder engagement.

Entity Type Considerations

The conversation shifts to the significance of choosing the right entity type for social impact initiatives. Scott advises, "if you're thinking about starting a nonprofit or a social enterprise, ask somebody which kind of entity you should be" (23:24). He highlights the spectrum between nonprofits, for-profits, and social enterprises, encouraging leaders to assess their unique needs and goals before deciding.

Practical Advice for Small Nonprofits

Towards the end of the episode, Scott offers actionable advice for small nonprofits struggling to scale:

• Assess and Celebrate Strengths: "Take the moment to celebrate who you are, what you do, and how you're doing it" (47:35).
• Strengthen Core Areas: Evaluate and reinforce each BOPP vertical.
• Leverage Free Resources: Utilize available online tools and resources to build momentum without additional costs.
• Seek Support: "Phone a friend... ask for help when and where you need it" (49:18).

Scott emphasizes that nonprofits do not necessarily need to hire consultants to initiate growth. Instead, adopting a growth mindset and methodically addressing the BOPP areas can lead to sustainable development: "Momentum begets momentum... Start there" (47:35).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with an affirmation of the vital role nonprofits play in societal betterment and a reminder of the structured approaches available to ensure their longevity and impact. Joan reinforces the key takeaway: by focusing on Board, Operations, Programs, and Partnerships, small nonprofits can navigate the complexities of scaling and ultimately thrive in their missions.

Key Takeaways:

• Proactive Planning: Anticipate and strategically plan for significant grants and growth opportunities.
• Strong Core: Build a robust foundation across Board, Operations, Programs, and Partnerships.
• Effective Communication: Invest in storytelling and communication strategies to enhance visibility and impact.
• Right Entity Choice: Carefully consider the appropriate organizational structure to align with mission and goals.
• Continuous Improvement: Regularly assess and reinforce strengths while addressing areas needing growth.

By implementing these strategies, small nonprofits can enhance their resilience, expand their impact, and reduce the risk of failing within the critical first decade of operation.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

Today we begin with a sobering statistic. One third of all Nonprofits fail within 10 years. An array of reasons for failure. But if we were playing Family Feud, I'd say financial issues and the host would reveal that answer in the number one spot. Okay, let's keep going. Now some stats about organizations in the sector. 30% of the 1.5 million nonprofits in the US have budgets under $100,000. It's not a lot of money. Now let me be clear. There is not always a direct correlation between the size of the budget and the magnitude of the impact an organization can have. Further, there is not always a correlation between the size of a budget and the organization's financial stability or path to sustainability. But could we assume that organizations with budgets under $100,000 are at most risk of failure? I kind of think we can. And so I wanted to explore the key levers that can immunize the at risk and further to explore how these organizations can scale grow in size and scope. And so explore we shall with my guest Scott Curran. His sweet spot expertise is working with growth stage social impact enterprises. You will learn that like me, Scott is deeply invested in the world of social impact. And also like me, he talks really fast and has super high energy. You might want to listen to to this conversation at regular speed. Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know that nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception. Scott Curran is a corporate attorney, social impact lawyer, an advisor to global brands and leaders of nonprofits and cross sector social impact initiatives. He's the CEO of Beyond Advisors, a social impact consulting firm that specializes in simplifying, simplifying and scaling impact with cross sector clients spanning philanthropy, the private sector and social enterprise. Current and former clients include, I could say include but are not limited to because I know Scott's a lawyer and I hear lawyers say that all the time. Including but not limited to the Clinton Global Initiative, the Starbucks foundation, the MIT IT Media Lab, Emerson Collective, Sean Penn's core And the Will and Jada Smith Family Foundation. Prior to founding Beyond Advisors, Scott served as general counsel for the Clinton Foundation. He's a busy fellow and serves on numerous prestigious boards. That said, my very favorite is the Two Bit Circus foundation. And yes, I plan to ask him about that. Scott, I'm really glad you're here.

[Scott Curran]

Joan, I am delighted to be here. As a longtime fan of yours and as a longtime years long member of the nonprofit Leadership Lab and a lifetime learner in this space, it is a privilege and a pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.

[Joan Gary]

Oh heck yes. Let's do it. First things first, there are phrases in the sort of in your intro social impact consulting firm and some of these words and I want let's put it into some real language here and tell folks about the kind of work you do at Beyond Advisors.

[Scott Curran]

Sure. Yeah. The short version is I take that corporate law career. I started as a Young Professional At 24, I was a corporate lawyer. I took an unexpected pivot back to school five years later, got a master's of public service which spit me out into philanthropy where I had a 10 year growth journey that I never could have imagined and was able to reapply that legal background, pivoting back out of program work and becoming in house counsel at what was then a fast rising startup nonprofit led by a recent former president and accidentally not so recent actually Scott, not anymore. But at the time he was, he was a then recent, a then recent newly former president who was trying to figure out what his his post presidential foundation would look like and do. And it was a stratospheric rise. Over the next 10 years we I joke that we accidentally started the legal department. So I got to straddle program work and legal work. And when I left that organization 10 years later I thought well what do I do with this toolkit and how can I serve more people with it? And so that's what led me to create and actually name it Beyond. I was moving beyond this incredible experience I was so fortunate to have stumbled into through a series of happy accidents, merging corporate law plus global philanthropy and all the experience we had for 10 years. And that's what led me to something I never would have thought at the time I would do, which is consult because I had to put it kindly, mixed feelings about consultants, having seen an awful lot of them come in and not all of them achieve the objectives that we had hoped. And so I was very careful about getting into that space myself.

[Joan Gary]

I actually it's very funny you say that and I'm going to let you continue in a second. But I had to actually jump in and say, I never thought I would like being a consultant. I never thought I liked doing the things. And not that I was skeptical about consultants, although many people are. But anyway, I have found a way to feel as though I am doing the things while I can.

[Scott Curran]

See, I love being a tactician. I love being behind the scenes. I love a difficult issue that we know we can get over with the right set of tools and facts and team and excitement. So that's what I loved about it. It turns out consulting's a great way to do that.

[Joan Gary]

So, yeah, it actually is.

[Scott Curran]

That's how I wound up creating Beyond Advisors with an awful lot of care and concern. And we've been very fortunate to serve, as you noted at the outset, a pretty similar high level of client. But my passion is sort of how do I make the same framework and toolkit for nonprofit and larger social impact success at scale available to those who might benefit from it most, which sort of drives everything that we do.

[Joan Gary]

So I don't think I knew you had a master's in public service, and I was really curious because sometimes people will ask me, even younger Gen Z folks out of school, was that a valuable degree to get? I'm just curious.

[Scott Curran]

At the time, I was in the inaugural class of the University of Arkansas Clinton School of Public Service, the nation's first master's in public service. And there had been degrees in public affairs and public policy and government and the like, but never one in public service. So we were the guinea pig class. And it was quite the adventure that led me on. Quite the adventure. And so I have to say, because I owe every part of the last 20 years to that experience, for me, the answer's a resounding yes. And the Master's of Public service degree isn't one thing for one type of student. It is like a tool shed you can go into, and based on your background and your experience and what you're trying to build for your professional future, you get to go into this incredible tool shed and find the tools that work best for you. And so for me, it was transformational. It led me into philanthropy, with which I had no or just a passing background as a sector and as a profession. And I've been in that space ever since. So. Resounding yes for me on that.

[Joan Gary]

Interesting, interesting. So tell me a little bit about some of the work that you do at Beyond Advisors. And I'm sure that you work with big folks, big players, and not so big players.

[Scott Curran]

We do, yes, all of the above. It's coaching, counseling, and consulting. Those are three different types of engagements we do with, with any client that is in a growth stage. So when we say that, we're typically saying not a startup and not a crisis. We can certainly help and work with and occasionally do a startup in a crisis. But as you noted, our primary focus is on a growth stage. Organization. An organization going into or coming out of a leadership change, maybe a desire to grow a board or change a board, any coming into or out of a major funding gift. And we've seen both. And, you know, usually coming on the back end of a strategic plan. We don't do strategic planning as a rule, but maybe they've come off a strategic plan and are trying to implement it. And so we help with a lot of that. Tactical nuts and bolts. How the how, focus on the how. How do we go from where we are today to where we want to be with this unique set of circumstances in front of us? And while that set of circumstances may be different for each client, the toolkit, the framework that we have had the good fortune of developing and deploying with our clients tends to work. So it depends on exactly what their growth stage looks like, but we jump in. Our goal is to be with them for a period of time, not forever, to leave them stronger than we found them. There are some clients we have been with forever since we started this, which has been lovely and wonderful, which also drives our desire to find new ways to share the framework and the toolkit with other people, which is why I do podcasts, and I'm working on a book that's still probably a couple years away, so nothing to go deeper on there today, but it does involve that same framework and toolkit that I have just had the good fortune of sitting in the seat to develop, both at the Clinton foundation and with my background, and to see and know how it can work for any organization, big or small, startups or scale. It's so fun.

[Joan Gary]

So you'll have to stay with us to hear a little bit more about that framework because I want to ask a few more questions. First, you have clients that have gotten mackenzie Scott grants, for example, multiple. And I always. I do think that when I think about organizations that have gotten mackenzie Scott grants, some of them are big enough, sort of strong enough to. Strong enough to. To contend with the magnitude and scope of that, and others are not. And I just wonder what your. What your experience has been on that particular topic.

[Scott Curran]

Yeah. And. And it's such an interesting. It's like winning the lottery, right? For some of them, yeah. They didn't see it coming and they didn't see the second check coming and they were delighted by both. And then the good news is the excitement, you know, in the lottery context, because none of us can use this as a strategy. But we have another client that's on the neighborhood street corner in the community where I live that got an unexpected million dollar check in the mail from a different donor. So I love this idea of this sort of like lottery philanthropy. And there's prize philanthropy now where there's this motivation in the sector to give this money away to organizations that, that the donors have vetted and decided are worthy of it already. And now they want to gift them with this and then get out of the way. And so it is so important for those organizations to know what to do with it the day after. And that is critically important.

[Joan Gary]

When I would do strategic planning work, I didn't do strategic planning work. I called it strategic visioning work. And we have a couple of podcasts that sort of spell out what I mean by that. And one of the biggest that I would ask a client is if you got a game changing gift right, what would you do with it and why? Because it is important to be prepared for it, right? Not to expect it. But what. Maybe it might be a bequest or, you know, any number of things that you really do have to be thoughtful about what a game changing gift could actually mean for your organization.

[Scott Curran]

It reminds me of your recent podcast with Jim Collins, you got it because you're already good. So how are you going to use it to go from good to great great or your version of great to greater if that's the case. But you got it because you're doing something well already. So to me, there's so much, so much of what I do focuses on strengthening the core of any great organization, whether that's at the board level, operations, programs or partnerships. But take what's good and make it great. Use that as rocket fuel for your existing engine to take you further and better than ever before. And when I listen to your podcast with Jim Collins, who of whom I'm a huge fan as well, I was just thinking, you know, for those organizations that do get that transformational money, it's because they're doing something good already.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

[Scott Curran]

And the next bet right thing to do with it is to take that good and make it great.

[Joan Gary]

And this would be a topic for another podcast, Scott. But we happen to live in a world with too many risk averse boards who see that money as some nest egg that should be put aside in case something goes wrong. Right. That we actually train our board members to be people who make sure nothing goes wrong and that, yeah, we could go on about that for days. But I want to keep strolling here in the direction of your framework and let me go back to what I said at the very beginning of this episode. You know, you've been in the social enterprise space for a long time and you've worked, as you said, with entities of all different sizes, as have I. And the statistics I offered at the top of the show are surely not headline news to you. And I would love to hear your thinking about what you have learned about what thwarts the ability of an organization to scale. Right. Because it's almost like, and maybe you'll disagree, it's almost like a car trying to go up a rather steep incline. Right. And some of them are able to get some of the way there and then get stuck and then a third of them go right back down the hill. And so I'm really just curious, what do you think is in the way of scale?

[Scott Curran]

A weak core, which I would unpack. A weak core plus not knowing what we don't know. You know, the scarcity mentality that you outlined, if that's the case for a board, right. To say that something's going to go wrong so we need to save the money for that rainy day, assuming the rainy day is coming, instead of believing that we have the ability to create a better path ahead of us. So having a weak core where we don't know what to do next or we don't know what we don't know. And so we get into a little bit of analysis paralysis or a fear based planning mentality, lacking a predictable, reliable path to success. Success. I've seen so many organizations struggling with knowing what the next right thing to do is and then getting a little confused and overwhelmed because they don't really have that framework for understanding exactly where they should be focusing that analysis. And you know, for me, what I've seen at scale over time has been, you know, there's, there's a common success path that every organization that has been successful. And to your earlier point, you don't have to have a lot of money to make a lot of impact. And if you have a lot of money, you may not be making a commensurate amount of impact with the resources that you have. So success and a Success path is available to every single one of those one and a half million nonprofits. But what to do next, and the confusion and overwhelm that comes from that moment is what I have seen cause an organization to get stuck or to make some progress and to your point, revert back to old ways and having a consistent and reliable path to success across the dimensions of what makes any organization unique. And I would endeavor and be so bold as to say every organization has the ability to answer that question. Again, back to the Jim Collins comment or podcast. One of his comments was and you engage in an incredible discussion about it, so it's worth revisiting that one is what is uniquely yours to give in the world. What do you uniquely do better than any organization in the world? And that is your unique proposition that is going to drive everything from board vision to executive leadership to your program staff to every partner your organization has, including but not limited to your donors. That will drive any car up any hill, no matter how steep it may be. And if that engine is strong, you will keep going. And that is what I mean. I get as you noted earlier, I'm well caffeinated, enthusiastic. It's because I've seen it work in organizations big and small. I've also seen what causes the failure, including in organizations that are big and well resourced. Nobody should fail for lack of that ability to fuel that engine for continued progress, strength and growth. It's that core foundation anybody can build on every day in tangible ways to keep going.

[Joan Gary]

There's something implicit about a success path, Scott, that you have defined what success look like. That you have a destination you are traveling to, right. That everyone can rally behind and want to go with you on that journey up the mountain in the car.

[Scott Curran]

Vision drives mission. Momentum begets momentum. Our focus goes where our aim is. Where focus goes, energy flows. These are some of my favorite quotes. They are not originals. I have borrowed them from the other gurus and the books I've read and what I've seen. And the beauty of those axioms is they hold true. Vision drives mission. And you can apply that to your board. You can apply it to your executive leadership team. Even if you're an executive leadership team of one, let that vision pull you forward every day. Know what is uniquely yours to give in your program work that you uniquely do. Again, these are universal and evergreen. They apply to any and every one of those one and a half million nonprofits. You are driven by a mission. Let that pull you forward and then drill down from there.

[Joan Gary]

I sat with A group of people, you know, many colleges and universities have centers, the center for this and the center for that. And I was chatting with a group of people who run a center and they called and said, would you come and talk with us? We're having trouble raising money. Right. And I, in preparation for that conversation, I asked them a couple of questions and had them email me the answers and you'll laugh. I said, if you got a game changing, what would be a game changing gift for you and what would you do with it? And the response I got was a $10,000 gift would be game changing for us. And I started to twitch. And I am quite clear, and I think you'll agree with this too, is when you have trouble fundraising, it's actually that's a presenting symptom of a larger illness, right? Is that it is a presenting symptom of. I can't get my arms around what it is you exist to do. Why? What's the problem you are uniquely suited to solve for? So I do think success paths and what to do next implies that, you know, you have a very good sense of the place you would like to go.

[Scott Curran]

And it's so important that I would say everybody in the organization at every level needs to be able to articulate that. So if there's any organization that this is hitting home for and it happens to all of us at various times, so it's, first of all, it's okay and spend time there, that's the rest stop on the climb of this part of the mountain. For those of you for whom this.

[Joan Gary]

May make, which by the way, is almost. I didn't use the mountain metaphor because I just came up with it a minute ago, but what I said to them is you need to pause. You need to pause and bring some smart people into the room and you need to answer these questions and then you can see where you should take your car.

[Scott Curran]

Isn't it amazing that the simplest answer and the simplest solution can be so transformative? And to be able to ask that question, it's okay to take the pause. It's always okay. This is a competitive marketplace. It is hard to stand out. And there are a lot of needs. And no matter your organization's focus, there is probably some competition in your, in your field and in your sector and in the communities that you serve. So knowing what is uniquely yours to give what your, how your vision uniquely pulls your board, your organization and your partners and your donor, including your donors forward is fundamental. Everybody has to be able to answer that. That question and if we don't know, we need to take that pause and solve that problem today. Because the good News is a $10,000 transformational gift is possible. It's. It's not the biggest mountain to climb. So if that is the case for, for, for one organization or there's good news in that, in the middle of that difficulty lies opportunity. To quote Einstein, there is a tremendous opportunity for you. And if once you leave this rest stop, having done that work, you are going to be prepared to climb. But everybody has to be able to explain very simply in one or two lines or less, what is uniquely ours to give and what pulls us forward. What is our vision driven mission for our organization. Once we have that in place, we can go on to the next.

[Joan Gary]

Yep, excellent. So surely one third of all nonprofits fail within 10 years. So that's, let's go 600,000, right? 600,000 nonprofits that don't last 10 years. Surely some of them should not have been 501C3s to begin with or should have been programs of some larger organizations, Right? So if you agree, why do you think folks don't go down those paths before filing with the irs?

[Scott Curran]

I do agree. It is a sobering statistic to know that, you know, if you're hanging out with people from three different nonprofits, that one of us may not be here in 10 years and to start exploring why. Certainly it is the case that some of them should not have been C3s to begin with or should have been part of another one. And I think sometimes people don't know to ask the question about entity type. In my world, I have that conversation multiple times a month. You know, should we be a for profit or a nonprofit? I teach a law school class and speak the language of social impact as a broad umbrella that is inclusive of but not limited to nonprofits. So I look at social impact as an umbrella that covers any and every organization and individual that's trying to do good in their life and their work. Obviously, philanthropy and the nonprofit sector are one vertical there. There's corporate do gooders as well, and then there's social enterprises, et cetera. So I have the entity conversation quite regularly as an attorney. People like to ask that question, should it be a nonprofit or a for profit? We have, we think we can make a pitch here to get funding if we are a non profit, but we also think we might have a set of products or services that we could use in a revenue producing way. And sometimes there's hybrids, sometimes there's both there's nonprofits with for profits adjacent to them, there's profits with nonprofits adjacent to them. And then in the middle are social enterprises, which by definition and design are hybrids of the two. And there's all kinds of thoughts and opinions about all of the above. The nonprofits need to be more like businesses, businesses need to be more like nonprofits, or we should just be social enterprises right in the middle. And I think that's a really wonderfully fun place to live and work. And that's how I start day one of my law school class. As I explain, you're going to have people come to you and ask these questions. So the first and most important thing, if you're thinking about starting a nonprofit or a social enterprise, ask somebody which kind of entity you should be and.

[Joan Gary]

What kind of somebody is that? Is that, let's say I'm thinking about starting something. I. I see a gap. Right. And I don't know which path to go down. What are the kinds of people that are best suited to advise me on that?

[Scott Curran]

Yeah. An easy answer for someone like me to give is you can ask an attorney. If you know and love one, and I hope you do, you can certainly ask an attorney. But success leaves clues. So you can ask the people who you've either are seeking to emulate, who've gone before you, who you might know on LinkedIn. Do not overlook the power and importance of LinkedIn. You can get to people like Joan and Scott and others out there who've done this before, for who are more than happy to answer a question and set up a courtesy call in some cases, not everybody. We can't do this endlessly and forever, but there's all kinds of people out there who would be willing to answer that question. But the truth is, you probably know somebody in your life and in your work who can answer that question. An attorney is obviously a first stop for many people, but not always immediately available to everyone. So I'm very cognizant of that. But others who've gone before you, other nonprofit leaders, you may be like a nonprofit, but different in a unique way. That's a really good sign that you know who you're like. Like. But how you're uniquely different. If you're going to be exactly like someone else, you may want to have a conversation with them. To your point, Joan, about partnering together and maybe alleviating the need of starting your own to begin with, because a solid chunk of the 1/3 that will fail in their first 10 years simply entered a saturated marketplace Or a crowded funding environment or a place where the types of volunteers or board members or funders you're seeking are already busy working with other organizations like the one you want to start. And so, you know, the technical question of what type of entity I should be based on what my model is for doing work and funding that work could go to a technical expert like an attorney or an experienced accountant or some other professional who has served the space.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, it's interesting actually. So I clearly, I am in the social enterprise space, right. And I know how easy it is to just decide or just think, well, that's the path I should go. So I, you know, my business is an llc. I think to myself, well, maybe I should have done my homework and been a B corp. I, you know, I actually, it's, you know, and so it's easy to just follow that path, but it's smarter to actually explore the options. I think that's what you're saying.

[Scott Curran]

Yes. And you know, I'm an LLC too. I'm, I'm a for profit business. I make money for selling my services, but I'm also squarely in the world of social impact and helping other people do more good better every day. But there was an event I was at. I was a staff member at the Clinton Foundation. We had a program called the Clinton Global Initiative University that brought together a thousand of the most idealistic university students on earth for a two day, just adrenaline, passion, power and purpose fueled weekend. It was incredibly exciting to be there. I was privileged to be there as a staff member and it was the closing plenary and I won't name the person, but they were the assistant CEO of a major corporate foundation, about as big a corporation as you can think of and some of you are thinking of. And she sat on stage and said to the audience because a similar question like this was asked. And she said how? She said really purposefully, like very excitedly and passionately almost to solicit. The response that she got was, how many of you in this room want to start your own nonprofit? And before she finished the sentence, the hands of the vast majority of the audience just shot straight up.

[Joan Gary]

Fascinating.

[Scott Curran]

And she met that response with don't like collective gasp, crickets, maybe a cymbal crashing to the ground and wobbling like met the silence of the room. And she did it on purpose and for a fact, even I was shocked. I was backstage.

[Joan Gary]

Like.

[Scott Curran]

So many of you have great passion and desires and ideas to do something great, but someone else out there is already doing it and it is going to be a better use of your time, effort, energy, and the resources you can bring to that space if you take a minute first to look around and ask honestly whether the world needs you to start something else up or whether you should go partner with others already doing it. And I have to tell you, while that was a sobering and pointed and poignant experience for myself and everyone else in that room, I have also seen it to be true at the highest levels of even celebrity philanthropy, where there's no question a celebrity can bring a bigger, brighter, broader spotlight to a cause or an issue. It doesn't mean they can do it better. More is not always better. Better is always better. But what is better and how can you uniquely contribute to it? So a resounding yes to some of those 1/3 of nonprofits that will fail should not have been nonprofits in the first place. Maybe they shouldn't have started an entity at all and they should have gone and contributed their profile, power, platform, passion for purpose to another organization already further down the road. But in some cases, maybe they should have been a business. Maybe they should have been a social enterprise. Maybe they should have a different approach with their something new. So it can be both. It can be that they shouldn't have been a nonprofit at all because it was unnecessarily competitive to a saturated marketplace. And it can also be true that they might have created something else that was more dynamic and more relevant to the times. So this is just another great example of the power of the pause. Not don't stop.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Curran]

But stop and look around. Take that beat, pull over on your climb and figure out what the next best path is. And there are answers to it. And there are people out there who are excited and motivated to help you find that answer.

[Joan Gary]

I think that we are entering. We have entered. I think that the sector maybe just needs to catch up with the times a little bit. Right. Is that we have entered a world where doing good doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a 501. And I'm thinking about. I read an article a couple of weeks ago about. I'm fascinated with Shark Tank for all kinds of reasons.

[Scott Curran]

Me too.

[Joan Gary]

You know, the most successful business that had. That had that came from Shark Tank is Bombas, the sock company. And I just sort of assumed that the founders were apparel guys. They were guys that. I assumed they were apparel guys. And they decided to give away a pair of socks for every pair of socks they sold. But actually they weren't sock guys at all. That these were two venture capitalists who really wanted to contribute meaningfully to the world and their particular cause was homelessness. And they started to do their homework, as you suggest, Scott. And what did they learn? They talked with folks on the streets that the number one thing that people who are homeless need most of all, I mean again, on a very long list, were socks. And they started an apparel company for that reason. And. Right. So there are many different plays you can make in order to do good in the world.

[Scott Curran]

Similar to Tom Shoes story, right? Which was the darling and the favorite for so many years before it became this juggernaut. But it started from a place of need and desire to help and became a fashion company that was both, you know, a do gooding entity, but also incredibly successful as a business. It has gone on a journey since then. But then others adopted that model and how amazing it is to know about these stories of origin and intent and desire to do good and that it can lead to. Yes, it can lead to nonprofit work and. But even nonprofits don't have to be nonprofits anymore. Even I used to say, you know, be a nonprofit if you have a monster chunk of change to capitalize this thing and you want to do so on a tax advantaged basis or tax advantaged basis and contribute it and start up the nonprofit and fund it. Right? That's usually the historical model of big major funded philanthropy, but now you can even do that through a donor advised fund. You don't even have to start up a C3 anymore. You can use a DAF. There are so many unique models, and again, because success leaves clues, nobody has to do this alone anymore. Every single one of us can explore these other models and find the path that is most successful for us.

[Joan Gary]

The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast. I think it's really interesting, right? I talked at the very beginning about how to prevent failure. And just in case anybody missed the thread here, what we're talking about is maybe one of the ways to prevent failure is actually not to start right? Or to go a different path. And so we are actually having a really interesting conversation with Scott Curran. He's a corporate attorney, a social impact lawyer, and advisor to Global Brands and leaders of nonprofits and cross sector social impact initiatives. Smart guy. And his sweet spot is about how do organizations scale? How do they go from good to great, right? And I loved the conversation we had a couple weeks ago because I heard in that conversation a kind of framework that you've created that can really drive scale and ultimately sustainability. And I think a lot of people who are listening want to pick up what you're about to put down.

[Scott Curran]

And I'm happy to share it. And this is based on my experience both being in house at what became a 4,000 person, 40 country and 35 US state operating nonprofit of its own, working on about a dozen initiatives at any given time. And then when I took that toolkit and went into my own consulting practice and started working with other organizations, I found that repetition produces results, that there's a pattern to this, that we can see quickly and clearly what certain types of organizations are dealing with. And for me, over time, this wasn't an overnight realization. It developed over time like like most of us experience in our work. I realized there were four common verticals in which our clients were seeking to grow. Some struggling to one degree or another, but many seeking to grow. And it was this simple. Board, operations, programs and partnerships. So if I'm writing it down, it's the BOP B O P P. It's fun to say, I invite everybody to become a boptimist about it. Board, operations, programs and partnerships. Those are the four verticals in which we would discover any and every organization super excited to grow, struggling and seeking to solve a challenge, making changes within their organization for one reason or another. And so if you look at that four part framework, that's the one we use not right or wrong for anybody else, but it's the one we use with consistent results. Many organizations are struggling with their board or not, but board spend a lot of time looking at your board. And Joan, you are a perhaps the greatest leader in our sector on dynamic, sound, scalable and sustainable board growth. I have learned from you in this. I have supplemented my experiences by learning from you in the nonprofit Leadership Lab so much about why it's important and where and how and when it's important to focus on board growth, development and engagement. So important. And if you're not spending time there or haven't spent time there or feel like maybe your board isn't hitting on all cylinders or maybe not meeting at all, spend your time there. Operations. There's a lot that can go under. Operations usually starts with HR because humans are our greatest resource. It's why it's called hr. Until, unless and until AI and the robots take over, it's still humans running our non profits and social enterprises and businesses. So spending time investing on hr, the human resources is always worthy of it. So under operations, we usually start with hr. It also includes other things like finance, communications, marketing, it, you name it. But operations is a really big bucket. But the most important place to start there is with those humans. And it might just be you. You may be the one person running all of the above and all that's to follow. And it's worth spending time there too. So operations is that huge vertical. Hr, finance, marketing, legal, communications, technology, however, and wherever you show up in the world, often it is electronically. So we're talking about things like computers and Zoom, etc. Etc. Operations, programs, what you do in the world to make a positive impact or if in a C3 context, what is your charitable purpose? What is the work you do to make the world a better place? For major foundations that give away money, that's your grant making work for operating organizations that are doing work on the ground, it is the work you do every day in every way. Whether that is addressing food insecurity because you run a food bank or housing insecurity at a shelter or a day center, or a back to work program, or an after school program, or a healthy child initiative. Whatever your program work is, whatever you're uniquely doing to serve your charitable purpose, that is your programs, that is what you do in the world to make it a better place every day in your work. And then partnerships is who you do it with. And sometimes those partnerships are just your funders and that's a great place to spend time. And again, Joan Gary is one of the greatest resources on earth right now to talk about how you bring that input of dollars into your organization. There's so many cool, dynamic ways that span everything else we just said your board, your operations and your programs tell the story of what you do that bring those dollars in the door. But it's also who you do it with. It's the other organizations with which you work or serve your programmatic focus. And often that is, you know, alliances between other organizations or community partners, et cetera, et cetera, but also your funders. So I want to be clear that the partnerships is everybody you work with, who feeds your work and who puts inputs into the work that your programs produce an output for. So that's a quick tour through my four part frame of the bop. I have yet to find an organization that we can't find their growth opportunity or in some cases their struggle within that four part frame. So that's a quick tour through the bop.

[Joan Gary]

Okay, so let's say I run a half a million dollar nonprofit and I'm kind of stuck, right? It can't seem, you know, give or take, I'm staying at that size. Let's say I have quite a good, quite an aspirational vision and my mission is my program. Let's just assume I'm pretty healthy and I get a game changing gift. The four verticals are big, right? They are expansive. How do you work with me? Are there particular diagnostic questions that you ask about each? Is one vertical more important? Do I have to be hitting equally well on all cylinders in order to be able to capitalize on that game changing gift? So let's imagine I'm the $500,000 organization. I'm pretty stable financially. You know, my programs are okay. I suspect there are probably some that I probably, probably shouldn't do anymore. You know, I mean like we all know these stories, right? But talk to me. I'm your now pretend I'm your client. How do you go about discerning? Sort of the best next steps I.

[Scott Curran]

Should take, similar to how you started earlier in our discussion is where's the primary pain point? What's, you know, if you're putting it in sort of the, sort of discovering a pain point, it's sort of inherently in the negative, but us in addition, different way, which is if tomorrow you got a game changer, what would your organization look like? I usually ask the question, if time and money were no limitation, what would you do tomorrow to take your organization to the next level? And that will you. The conversation will reveal the pain point, the chief complaint, the thing someone wants to fix. And usually they'll say, you know, and I'm just going to follow the frame. You know, I have a, I have a great board. I really love them. They're my cousin and my friend and my mom and my uncle and my neighbor and my realtor.

[Joan Gary]

You don't have a great board, Scott, right?

[Scott Curran]

This is it, right? Like so you're telling me I don't think I have a problem, but let me tell you about my problem. So again it starts with the question of what would you just change tomorrow if you could change anything? It's like I wish I had, you know, I wish Matt Damon was on my board. I wish Mackenzie Scott was on my board. I wish Oprah would join my board. I, you know, I wish Bill and Melinda would, would, would come over and make peace and be on my board together. I was like, okay, so you're telling me it's about your board or I have an exact. I am the executive director. And then, you know, usually some story of I am the problem, I'm not qualified, I don't have the bandwidth, I'm struggling, etc. Start the conversation with, if you could change anything tomorrow, what would it be? And that's going to reveal it because I can't. You know, it's like being an ER doctor. I can't diagnose it if the patient presents silent with no obvious or evident challenge or concern. But if they're grabbing the belly and doubled over, I know that there's a belly pain point, or if there's a compound fracture of the femur, I know right away that's the issue. We had an organization come to us through a. He was the board member. He's the executive director and founder. He was a two time McKinsey Scott Grant recipient. The organization was. And he said, hey, guys, I love working with you on this other organization I'm on the board of. I think maybe you can help us. I said, well, sure. Tell us what's going on. What's up? Well, I think we probably need a little help, a little tweaking, not a lot, because we had consultants before and gave this whole story of, I don't think it's too bad, but I think we need some help on the human resources front. Well, Joan. And he said, listen, it's not like it's a dumpster fire. He's right. It wasn't a dumpster fire. It was a whole field full of dumpsters, all oblivious. It was a massive HR problem. It was way closer to crisis than I would typically be comfortable serving, but it was crystal clear. And so that's what I find is that most of us know, again, taking the power of that pause. Most of us know what we're struggling with most, if we're willing to be honest about it. So I just asked the question, if you could change something tomorrow, what would it be? And then explore from there. There might be multiple answers. It may or may not be the board. It's like, hey, I've got a great board. I wouldn't change a thing about it. We meet quarterly. We're awesome and dynamic, but we're really struggling with funding. We are stuck. We are plateaued. We've been in the same spot for two years. And if we're just going to do what we've always done. We can keep doing that, but all of us feel there's more we can do. Oh, that's a whole different problem set. And it's a fascinatingly fertile ground to till. So tell me what you do better than anyone in the world. Oh, we address issue X in the most unique and dynamic and effective way because this is what results when we're done with our work. I'm hearing a glorious organization. What a great set of. I was like, tell me how you're communicating that.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, well, we're not really.

[Scott Curran]

We. We go back to the handful of donors we have every year. We give them that annual report, they write us the check again. But we're not growing. It's like, sounds like there is untapped potential of a great impact storytelling opportunity here. Your board, great. They're engaged on a quarterly, no less than quarterly basis. Your team is hitting on all cylinders. You're having amazing results. This is a scale. This is a story of scale. This is an organization that's just ready to hit the gas pedal with the right kind of fuel going into the right part of the tank and the right amount. And so that one's taking me into a. Programs and partnerships. You have great programs, but your partnerships aren't as big as they could be. And the challenge here is story. We're not telling the story of the impact we've had and the way we uniquely serve the space. And so that's an organization that may want to go tell its story in a dynamic, unique, different way to a larger or slightly different audience and see if the inputs become as vast, varied, greater and more effective, and if the outputs. Because their board's already working, their team's already working, their program's already working. But we know we can do more. No crisis, no dumpsters on fire, no HR crises, no board leadership crisis. This is a story of opportunity to scale, where the inputs just need to be different to create a bigger output.

[Joan Gary]

So we are almost out of time, but there's a question I want to ask about the four verticals. Which vertical does communications and visibility fall in? I know where I would put it, but I wonder where you do.

[Scott Curran]

Well, first of all, it transcends all four without question. It impacts how we tell the story, who we are, how we show up in this crowded marketplace where people are boxing out and throwing elbows so they get their piece of the pie and stand out in a inattentive, crowded world. It transcends the entire. All of this transcends the entire, you know, a good board Transcends the entire organization too. But communications, I typically ask, what is your communications information infrastructure look like and who's running it? So operations usually has some vertical of communications leader in it. And again, some executive directors do all of it. They're the chair of the board, they're the executive director and the leader of the organization. They are hr, they are comms, they are it, they are the program lead as well. I understand that that is the reality for so many organizations and we can do that too. But I put communications like I do marketing or finance or legal or executive leadership in the operations bucket. But it is such a fundamentally important part of telling the story of our programs to our partners. So it transcends and by the way, our board members, if they don't know what we're doing, how we're doing it, and uniquely showing up in the world, that exciting vision won't pull them forward either. So communications transcends it all.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. It is a little soapbox that I, that I drag out more than occasionally. That our sector misses the point of communications dumps it into general operating expenses. And therefore nonprofits are terribly under resourced to tell their stories and to be out in the world. And the reason that I do not consider it to be gen op funding is because if you don't have people, you don't have any power. Right? If you don't have a huge posse of people who are partnering with you in all kinds of different ways around the important work you do, if no one knows about you, right. You cannot have impact. So.

[Scott Curran]

So anyway, you will starve the engine for the fuel it needs across the entirety of the organization. Communication impact. Storytelling through a communication strategy is critically important to every single organization that wants to survive and make it past that 10 year mark.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. So, last question. You know, you've got the ears of a lot of executive directors and board chairs here and none of whom want to be that one in four. Right. And excuse me, sorry. That one in three. Sorry, my math was off this morning. What's the couple of pieces of advice for people who are listening? Maybe again, maybe thinking, you know, if you're under a million bucks, what kind of advice would you offer to them? Do they have to hire a consultant? Scott?

[Scott Curran]

Nope, you don't. You don't start. Success leaves clues. Take the moment to celebrate where you are and what you're doing, because there's power in that. And having a growth mindset and a positive mindset, it so matters in our work if you are part of those 1.5 million nonprofits. If you are part of social impact outside of the nonprofit space, you are doing something awesome and there is room for you to succeed in whatever way you will. So take the moment to celebrate who you are, what you do, and how you're doing it. Then assess your core strengths across all of it and reinforce it when and where. And none of us are perfect. There is not a perfect nonprofit out there. Everybody has a weakness somewhere and an opportunity to do better somewhere. So don't be shy about taking an honest look at your core. Start with your board, look at your operations, look at your programs and your partnership and start writing down what's working beautifully well there and celebrate that. Then look for the opportunity to strengthen some or all of it and set out a path and a plan to do it. And there are immediately available resources to you for free on the Internet. You don't need to hire anybody. You can start doing this work today. If your board's not meeting quarterly, set for quarterly board meetings. Just do it. There's power in that momentum. Momentum begets momentum. And you can crank a flywheel momentum. Start there. If you're doing that, assess your operations, fix the next best thing you can, fix there programs and partnerships. Start outlining those verticals for your organization right now. There's no cost, just a little bit of your time and there's great power in it. And start mapping that out. And then from there, build and keep building. When you need to pull over, stop and assess again, phone a friend, ask for help when and where you need it. Then get back on the road and keep going.

[Joan Gary]

Phone a friend. One of my favorites. I love that. And also just. I really like what you said. Right. Momentum begets momentum. When you start to focus on something and you feel the success of having done that, when you bring on that first board member you know is going to tip the board in the direction of your vision, right. In the. In the direction of a group of ambassadors and champions. Right. Feel that success and let it fuel you to go on to the next piece of the puzzle. You can't take it, can't take it all at once, but it is. What if you focus on the one thing that you could do next and do it well, it's going to put more gas in your tank to keep going. And that can make all the difference. So, Scott, this was really fun. I enjoyed the conversation very much.

[Scott Curran]

I did too. Thank you, Joan. Such a pleasure.

[Joan Gary]

So for all of you who are listening, thank you. I hope you took away some insights and aha, or two. And as always, please take good care of yourselves. And thank you so much for the work that you do every day. The world is hungry for meaning and purpose, and you are the keepers of the flames. So have a good day. Hear her. Take care. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.