Ep 213: Racial Dynamics in Nonprofit Fundraising (with Mikaela Levons + Jamila Hodge)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 213: Racial Dynamics in Nonprofit Fundraising

Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Host: Joan Garry
Guests: Mikaela Lavons & Jamila Hodge
Release Date: October 12, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 213 of "Nonprofits Are Messy," host Joan Garry delves into the intricate and often challenging landscape of nonprofit fundraising through the lens of racial dynamics. Joined by Mikaela Lavons, Chief of Development at Equal Justice USA, and Jamila (Jami) Hodge, the second Executive Director of the same organization, Joan explores the unique hurdles and strengths that BIPOC fundraisers encounter in the nonprofit sector.

Understanding Equal Justice USA

Mikaela Lavons provides an overview of Equal Justice USA (EJ USA), highlighting its mission to "divest from state violence" while "investing in the community and resources that are needed for community thriving and safety" [00:05]. EJ USA emphasizes capacity building, advocacy, restorative justice, and narrative shifting to redefine justice and safety within communities.

Jami Hodge elaborates on EJ USA's growth, noting, "we have grown from a $5 million budget to an $11 million budget in three years" [07:35]. She discusses the organization's role as an intermediary funder, supporting grassroots partners by providing grants, infrastructure support, and advocacy to address systemic violence and its repercussions.

Historical Context and Current Landscape

Joan Gary sets the stage by referencing the racial reckoning of 2020 and its impact on both for-profit and nonprofit organizations. Jami Hodge reflects on the cyclical nature of racial progress, stating, “we push the boulder up, and then it rolls back” [13:55]. She expresses disappointment over the rapid shift in funding priorities, noting how initial support for racial justice has been supplanted by other issues like democracy, indicating a regression in sustained commitment.

Mikaela Lavons adds, "the good thing, the hopeful thing for me is I think about our work at Equal Justice USA as being so intersectional" [16:00]. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining focus on race equity amidst fluctuating funding landscapes, advocating for a diversified approach that intertwines democracy, public health, and race equity.

Challenges Faced by BIPOC Fundraisers

Mikaela Lavons discusses the inherent tension BIPOC fundraisers navigate within a capitalistic society, highlighting the struggle to leverage often extractive resources for social good while confronting embedded racism: “capitalism and like our economic system has white supremacy baked in” [19:16]. She underscores the demoralizing aspects of this tension but maintains optimism about the future.

Jami Hodge parallels this sentiment by describing the relational challenges in fundraising, especially when race adds an additional layer of complexity to power dynamics: “it requires a little bit more work, you know, than if I'm sitting across from a person who looks like me” [26:49]. She emphasizes the necessity of entering fundraising conversations from a place of power rather than feeling like a beggar, which is often compounded by racial dynamics.

Impact of Microaggressions and Racial Hierarchies

Joan introduces the concept that fundraising can magnify racial hierarchies, prompting Jami Hodge to reflect on personal experiences of disrespect and constant questioning rooted in race: “it's a constant questioning. Did you, you know, look me in my face when I asked you a question and not respond because I'm a black woman” [31:51]. The discussion delves into the emotional labor BIPOC fundraisers endure, navigating microaggressions while striving to build authentic relationships with donors.

Mikaela Lavons expands on the intersection of racial and monetary hierarchies, noting, “different people relate to money differently depending on how you show up, your racial history” [35:03]. She critiques the merit-based funding system that often fails to recognize the unique needs and strengths of marginalized communities, advocating for greater trust and equitable funding practices.

Supporting BIPOC Fundraisers: Strategies and Solutions

Joan poses a critical question to her guests: What should BIPOC fundraisers look for when interviewing for positions to ensure they will be supported and empowered?

Jami Hodge emphasizes the importance of organizations actively discussing and prioritizing racial equity during the interview process: “if it hasn't come up, that's a huge red flag” [40:16]. She cites her own organization’s transition to a black-led leadership as an example of genuine commitment, highlighting structured racial equity learning sessions and intentional leadership transitions.

Mikaela Lavons advises looking for concrete indicators of support, such as allocated resources for racial equity in the budget and the organization’s language around race: “listen to how they talk about race... if they're saying things like, we don't see color... that's a red flag” [46:18]. She stresses the need for transparent communication and genuine investment in racial equity beyond superficial statements.

Harnessing the Superpowers of Fundraisers of Color

In the concluding segment, Joan shifts focus to the inherent strengths that BIPOC fundraisers bring to the table. Mikaela Lavons identifies "being comfortable with the uncomfortable" as a key superpower, enabling fundraisers to navigate tension and drive social change effectively [51:32].

Jami Hodge echoes the importance of authenticity and empathy, attributing her leadership style to her lived experiences: “I can talk about it from the heart... it's not academic” [52:21]. She highlights the ability to lead with love and accountability, fostering genuine connections and passionate advocacy within fundraising endeavors.

Final Reflections

Joan Gary wraps up the episode by acknowledging the wisdom and resilience of her guests, underscoring the critical role they play in advancing racial equity within the nonprofit sector. She reiterates the importance of recognizing and supporting the unique challenges and strengths of BIPOC fundraisers, encouraging listeners to value and nurture these contributions to repair and strengthen the world through nonprofit work.

Key Takeaways

• Intersectionality in Fundraising: BIPOC fundraisers operate at the crossroads of race, power, and economics, navigating complex dynamics to secure resources for social justice.

• Systemic Challenges: Persistent racial hierarchies and fluctuating funding priorities undermine sustained progress in racial equity initiatives.

• Authentic Leadership: Genuine commitment to racial equity involves intentional leadership transitions, dedicated resources, and ongoing education within organizations.

• Superpowers of BIPOC Fundraisers: Attributes like resilience, authenticity, empathy, and comfort with discomfort empower BIPOC fundraisers to lead effectively and drive meaningful change.

• Supporting BIPOC Fundraisers: Organizations must actively engage in conversations about race, allocate appropriate resources, and create environments where BIPOC fundraisers can thrive without sacrificing their identities.

Notable Quotes

• Mikaela Lavons [00:05]: “Equal Justice USA is divesting from state violence while investing in the community and resources that are needed for community thriving and safety.”

• Jami Hodge [13:55]: “We push the boulder up, and then it rolls back. We have to continue to push that boulder.”

• Mikaela Lavons [19:16]: “Capitalism and like our economic system has white supremacy baked in.”

• Jami Hodge [26:49]: “It requires a little bit more work, you know, than if I'm sitting across from a person who looks like me.”

• Jami Hodge [31:51]: “Did you, you know, look me in my face when I asked you a question and not respond because I'm a black woman.”

• Mikaela Lavons [35:03]: “Different people relate to money differently depending on how you show up, your racial history.”

• Jami Hodge [40:16]: “If it hasn't come up, that's a huge red flag.”

• Mikaela Lavons [46:18]: “Listen to how they talk about race... if they're saying things like, we don't see color... that's a red flag.”

• Mikaela Lavons [51:32]: “Being comfortable with the uncomfortable... we can do hard things, we can move through it and get our job done.”

• Jami Hodge [52:21]: “I can talk about it from the heart... it's not academic.”

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This episode offers profound insights into the nuanced experiences of BIPOC fundraisers, emphasizing the need for systemic change, authentic leadership, and the recognition of unique strengths that enhance the nonprofit sector's mission to create social change.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

In the nonprofit sector, there has long been a common narrative. Fundraising is hard. It's hard to find prospects, it's hard to get the story right, it's hard to overcome the anxiety of asking, and it's hard to make the ask. Now, I may have some unicorn attributes because I actually don't feel this way at all. But sadly, I do believe that far too many people have these big feels when it comes to asking for money. Now imagine you're a fundraiser of color. Maybe the first BIPOC development director your organization has hired. Maybe you are the ED and the first person of color in those leadership positions. I was talking to a friend, a gay man who left higher ed fundraising because he could not be authentically himself. It felt too risky to be out, and so he avoided questions over lunch about his family and the wife he didn't have. He actually has a Jeff. This man could pass and decide what to share and what not to share. This is not an option for fundraisers of color. Today I am joined by two women of color, an executive director and her development director, and we'll chat about the complex layers bipoc fundraisers face that can make fundraising hard in very, very different ways. We'll chat about how issues of race play out in the context of fundraising. We'll talk not only about what organizations can and should do to support BIPOC fundraisers as they navigate these difficult and emotionally challenging waters, but also the superpowers fundraisers of Color bring that strengthen your organization in important and impactful ways. These two women are badass, smart, and funny. They are excellent partners in fundraising, and when I asked them to join me for this conversation, I was really happy. They said, yes, you will be too. Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know that nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception. Let me introduce you to today's dynamic duo. Their full bios are in the show notes, but here's the quick tea. Mikayla Lavons is a native of Kingston, Jamaica with a passion for resourcing organizations that create social change who is not all over that. She is Chief of Development at Equal justice usa, an organization that reimagines justice and builds community safety across the country. Previously, Mikayla was the Director of Advancement at Princeton Alumni Corps, an independent nonprofit that mobilizes people, organizations and networks for public good. Prior to that, she worked at the center for Nonprofits in New Jersey. She received her bachelor's in Policy from Princeton and her master's in nonprofit and NGO Leadership from the University of Pennsylvania. She lives in Central New Jersey with her husband and three daughters. And when you read the Fuller bio, you will also know that she has chickens. I was kind of bummed that when I asked her to edit it, she left that out. Jammy Hodge is the Fundraiser in Chief and became Equal Justice USA's second executive director in 2021, bringing more than 15 years of criminal justice experience as a prosecutor, policy advisor and technical assistance provider. She came to EJ USA after launching the Reshaping Prosecution program at the Vera Institute of Justice. Prior to that, Jammy logged many achievements across a 12 year career in the U.S. department of justice, as an Assistant U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia and as an advisor on criminal justice and drug policies for then Vice President Joe Biden. She spent four years as a community prosecutor focused on intervention and prevention of harm. Jami has demonstrated her expertise on cbs, msnbc, abc, Nightline, and many other print media outlets. Law degree, Duke University, Bachelor's Psych and Sociology at the University of Michigan. Seems like a very fine combination of degrees actually. Thank you both for joining me. I am delighted to be in conversation with you and to share that conversation with our listeners. So before we dig into the topic, I want people to know about Equal Justice USA and I'm actually gonna start with Mikayla. You're working a room, Micaela, and you meet someone new to the organization and I say, let's say it's me. And I say I was invited here by a friend and I don't know much about Equal justice usa. Can you tell me about it? Offer me the brief.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I think I really like to borrow language from our program team and they talk about the fact that Equal Justice USA is divesting from state violence. While we are also investing in the community and resources that that are needed for community thriving and safety. Practically, we're accompanying grassroots organizations to actually build their capacity to give training to do anything that they need to do so that they can build the safety that they know. Because our operating premises the people that are closest to the issues and the problems will also be the ones that have the best solutions. So our work encompasses both capacity building, like we mentioned, but also a lot of advocacy, a lot of off ramping work. So we have a restorative justice project that we acquired last year and we're doing that alternative to kind of punitive systems. And then overarching is narrative shifting. So we're trying to shift the way that people talk about safety and define justice.

[Joan Gary]

I'm gonna go to Jami next, but I'm still at the cocktail party cause my Pinot Noir is not empty. Does that mean you actually bring in money and you regrant it to these community organizations around the country to do this work? If you could just clarify a little bit about the how, that'd be helpful to me while I drink my Pinot Noir.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, so we do some of that. That is not the majority of what we do. In fact, this year was our first year becoming a formal intermediary, funding intermediary to regrant to community based partners. For us, we really only do it in the context of those smaller organizations that we're accompanying. So we're walking alongside of them. And these are basically the frontline folks who addressing issues that drive violence. So whether that is responding, you know, supporting youth who've been exposed to trauma, working with mothers who've lost their children to gun violence or to incarceration, folks who are dealing with just poverty, you know, and making sure that needs are being met. So we accompany them, we help build their infrastructure, like help them write for their first grants, help them build a board and get their 501c3 if they need to do that. And then we organize with them for that larger policy change. But yes, this year was our first year receiving dollars where we could officially regrant them to our partners that we're walking hand in hand with.

[Joan Gary]

How big an organization are you, Jami? What's your budget size? Just to give people a sense. I know you're growing.

[Jami Hodge]

Yes, we have grown a lot. So September will be three years for me. And when I came in, we were 25 people with about a $5 million budget. We are now 47 people with about an $11 million budget. So we have grow in the last three years.

[Joan Gary]

One of the things I happen to know, because I know these win pretty well in the organization, is that you absorbed, acquired an organization that provided kind of a third leg of your strategic stool. And I just want to say that I happen to know that it's going Quite well. So stay tuned for a potential encore appearance with Jami as she talks about how to make a merger acquisition bringing together of two organizations work well, because I don't think we have nearly enough models of that. I want to stay with this on one more because I really want listeners to understand the impact you have. Can one of you. I don't care which, tell me, bring the work to life for me with a story that says, ah, now I understand the kind of impact you have.

[Jami Hodge]

Have.

[Joan Gary]

I don't care which one it is.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, I think for me, the people I carry and sort of hold the dearest are also the executive directors. Right. Of our grassroots partners, the ones who are leading. And so quick story, one of our close partners is based in Patterson, New Jersey. They are a hospital violence intervention program which is known as sort of hvip. And essentially what they do is when there's a person who's been shot, they show up to see that person to make sure needs are met. What services can they provide? Can they get at the root, do we. Do they know who shot them? You know, are there things that need to be de. Escalated around that and just, you know, essentially to make sure that they can move forward and that further violence doesn't continue. And they lost one of their community outreach workers in a police shooting. And it was pretty tragic. He was in a mental health crisis at the time, called both the police for help and called his colleague from the Patterson Healing Collective also for help. And in short, what happened is both showed up. The police would not let these trained interventionists go in and to interact with him. They ultimately, after several hours, went in, and in that interaction, he was killed. So not only did we show up sort of, as we hold the statewide advocacy space that this organization is a part of, the New Jersey Violence Intervention Prevention Coalition, to be able to, the day it happened, provide communication support, to get a statement out so that the story was told in a way that humanized him and explained who he was. And we know, unfortunately, that often the police narrative is not the true narrative. So to get ahead of that, we then worked with them around the advocacy that has now led to a law being passed in New Jersey, where in similar situations, there's now piloting behavioral health responses instead of a police response. But most importantly for me, I watched the leader of that organization, organization, an amazing woman, Liza, try to hold her team through that grief and then have her team working to advocate in his honor. And I was worried about her and what were we doing to hold her up and being able to pull her and other women of color and organizations we support and pull them away to a space where they could be poured into as they were holding up their teams. So that's just one example of the many ways we supported in what was a pretty tragic incident.

[Joan Gary]

The reason that I spend time having people describe the work that they do is, and I'm saying this to those people who are listening, you're saying, okay, you said you were going to talk about fundraisers of color. And what I really want to say to all of you is I hope you listen to every word Jami just said about the work that they do, because you are a part of a much larger movement of leaders like Jami and Mikayla and the person she described in Patterson. Right. You are part of this big posse of people, and it should, on hard days, lift you up to hear the stories of the work that other people in this nonprofit movement are doing. So that's why I do it. I hope you didn't fast forward through me. And by the way, I speak quickly. So if you put me at 1.5, when you listen to this podcast, you're gonna have a head explosion emoji. Just going to say, let's talk a little bit about the historical context we're in. Right. We all know that 2020 and the racial reckoning we experienced propelled tons of organizations for profits, nonprofits to think and act differently. And I think that the two of you have valuable, interesting perspective on that and what the landscape looks like now that we are several years away from that moment. What do you see when you look?

[Jami Hodge]

I see more of the same, and I see some things that are just disappointing. I can't help but think about Jeff Robinson, used to run the ACLU's Trone center, and he has an incredible documentary called who We Are, A Chronicle of America's Racism or History of Racism. And in it, he talks about how, just historically, we will have these moments where we push the boulder up, push the boulder up, push the boulder up, and we get to a cliff where we are almost there. And we could push the boulder over to the other side, or we can roll back and over and over in our history. Ending slavery, moving to reconstruction, and then Jim Crow. Like, we will push the boulder up, and then it rolls back. And I feel like that's what happened. 2020 was some, you know, George Floyd's murder galvanized not just the country, but the world to look at these issues differently. We saw corporations for the first time. Like, we have money. How can we, you know, Black Lives Matter on our websites. What can we do to support. We start, we. I remember the New York Times bestseller list that summer full of all the books.

[Joan Gary]

All the books, Sam.

[Jami Hodge]

From the beginning, you know, all people wanted to learn and know. And it was, it was exciting, you know, and I thought maybe this is the moment. Like maybe this is going to be real. And it has in such little time. We have already seen the rollback and how quickly the pendulum has swung back. And when I think about in funding spaces in particular, it is, you know, it's kind of whatever's going on in the news, right? So January 6th, democracy, you know, so a lot of funders now are like, well, that's important too. But actually we really, we're going to shift to democracy right now, you know, and it was like we didn't solve racial justice in that sort of moment of awakening, but now it's the next thing. So I just have, I've been disappointed. But we've been here before and we continue to still push that boulder. Regardless where it is on that hill, we have to continue to push it.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I mean, I think what I like to explain just to our team and anyone we work with is just the reality that, yes, it's as if George Floyd's body is cold and in the grave and the kente cloth moment is over. People took off the stoles that they were wearing in the Capitol rotunda and are back to business as usual. You know, like it feels so callous. And Inside Philanthropy is actually doing a multi part series on just a sharp rise and precipitous fall of funding in the criminal justice space. So I think it is sad. The good thing, the hopeful thing for me is I think about our work at Equal Justice USA as being so intersectional. So from the very beginning, we were never pigeonholed as just doing criminal justice or reform because truly our work is more about building an affirmative new thing. And so we think about our work as intersecting democracy, intersecting public health. Certainly race equity is always there. So we're leaning into just that diversity of different spheres. But yeah, we just have to keep telling the truth about how quickly minds change.

[Joan Gary]

I love what you're talking about, Mikayla, in terms of how do you talk about the work in such a way that it grabs onto? Right. It is not separate and apart from the issues that Jami was just talking about that funders are in fact interested in. And it's not a big stretch to get there. Right. And so the more that I think that's actually a very important. It's an important lesson, I think, for people who operate in a particular lane is it's not very infrequently is a lane just a lane. It's part of some ecosystem. It's part of some systemic challenge that our society faces that demands our attention. And I really liked what you had to say there. Mikayla, did you see a rise in fundraising in 2020 and a decline? Does fundraising actually track with the boulder? Michaela?

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, yeah, I can start and say that.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I mean, so this is what I'm curious to see, why Inside Philanthropy pulls. They're using candid data from like the foundation directory folks. And what they're doing is looking at the data that does show that, like, so there was an increase. Orgs that didn't even usually fund this kind of work suddenly did big infusions and corporations did too. We've seen almost a complete retraction with the corporations. And we have decent enough relationships with some folks that they'll tell us, frank, like, they're hearing from their legal team, they can't fund anymore. They're hearing from like, higher ups that this is not, you know, something they're allowed to do. But then we're also seeing in the data that even the formal foundation funding is decreasing. And then what I like about the journalism that's happening is they're interviewing leaders who are saying it's even more extreme than what's showing up in the numbers. Because, of course, you know, data always has some drawbacks.

[Jami Hodge]

So.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joan Gary]

Jamie, you want in on that? Any added thought there?

[Jami Hodge]

No, I don't think there's anything to add. I think it's, you know.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, it's real.

[Jami Hodge]

Seeing it, we're feeling it. It is real.

[Joan Gary]

I do a lot of work. I do some work in the higher ed space and the, you know, there's, there's a whole trend in 2020 of the mass hiring of chief diversity officers with no support, no power, no authority. Who are. That was the answer. Right. And you're now seeing more and more of those schools laying off those chief diversity officers or actually pointing a blame at them for not getting more done and then putting something into the HR departments. So you see the boulder sliding back down for sure. So what I want to do is offer you a big, broad question and I will sit back and enjoy the conversation so you can take it wherever you want. And I'm going to start with you, Mikaela. It's more of an essay question than a short answer, for sure. How do you see issues of race play out in the context of fundraising? As someone who is a fundraiser, that's your job. How do you see issues play out and go wherever you want to go with it? And then I'm going to actually ask Jami the same question.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, such a good question, Joan. I mean, firstly, I think we have to admit and recognize that, at least for me, it's clear that we exist in a capitalistic society that's inherently problematic. Right. So I think when you're a person of color and a black person in these United States, you're always walking and living with the reality that a lot of the gains and wealth that we have came from extractive means. And so as a fundraiser, you get to kind of be at the intersection of looking at resources often created from these extractive means in this problematic system. But you want to leverage them for social good, and you want to leverage them towards a particular mission. And how do you do that? Not only just as a person who is aware of the issues, but then add onto it race and racism and the reality of both racism embedded in the system. So we believe, at least at Equal justice usa, that capitalism and like our economic system has white supremacy baked in. And then as a black fundraiser, we think about how does that, like, rub me? Like there is going to be a tension. And the trick is to figure out how do you use that tension to the good of the mission. So how can I be a truth teller? How can I talk about, from my perspective, the ultimate goal, which is reparations and true liberation for black people, but also live in the in between of. For now, what we have is philanthropy. And for now what we have are donors who understand that these movements need funding. And how do I tell them the story and allow them to be a part of the movement, even though they're not from these communities, they're not the grassroots. Maybe they're grasstops, maybe they're just high net worth individuals, Black, white, other. But I think they get to join in the mission through philanthropy. And that's kind of the message, but it's not divorced from the reality of racism. So it's definitely a healthy tension.

[Joan Gary]

And am I hearing that the way you navigate that tension is an aspiration? Both the knowledge that this money will actually support the good work that you and Jami are talking about today, as well as you see a place down the road where it's different and that you are. I've come to know you as a very optimistic, hopeful human right. Is that also part of what? Because that could be and probably is for many fundraisers of color, that tension is not at all healthy. And in fact, it actually is demoralizing.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it can be demoralizing. And so for me personally, just making sure I'm entrenched in spaces where other nonprofit professionals of color thrive and can be themselves. I think about my folks at the collective here in Jersey. It's like a nonprofit professionals of color collective. It's called. We're having a conference actually in October, I think about the African American Development Officers association started by Birgit Burton. These are spaces where. And Jami knows because she's always like, take the time you need, go to the conference. You need to be with the unicorns, because that's what will refuel you. It helps you not feel like you're being gaslit by the work. Because sometimes you wonder, is this real? Is this tension? Did I make this up? And to have others, I think about my colleagues in higher ed fundraising, the things they hear are insane, but just to hear those stories and like, have that collective space is very, very healing. It's very energizing. And yes, for me, I think ultimately I can never get too comfortable within the system and think I have a cadre of funders who have funding from capitalism. And as long as they're funding me all as well, I have to constantly remember that ultimately this system is not our friend. And the system will cannibalize. Even, like, people who work as program officers will talk about, if they're telling the truth, the fact that the system can harm them too. Like when they're having to pivot strategies because even though they see the community needs funding and they've made commitments, multi year commitments, and then trustees for a big philanthropy might tell them, oh, you know what? I am now going to want to save whales. I'm no longer interested in criminal justice. Please tie these grants off by the end of the year. That's painful, right? And so I think we have to admit that and, like, recognize that while we have the funding, we're going to do the work. But ultimately, how great would it be to, like, see true reparations, to see these communities get cash in hand that they can use and they can dictate, like, what they need to do with that would be awesome. I don't know when that time will come. We're working on it, but this is our interim, our stopgap.

[Joan Gary]

Jami.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think about sort of the burden that comes with Being a funder in chief, as you aptly said, because funders, as great as the mission can be, it's not. It is a relational thing. And, you know, I often liken it to dating, you know, so my first meeting with a person, I don't know, program officer or decision maker is really like, I want them to get to know me. Like, we're going to talk about my experience that brought me here to the organization. We'll talk some about the work of the organization, but then I want to know about your experience. Tell me about you as a person. How did you get to your organization? Because we need relationship. To me, it doesn't matter to even begin to talk about the work until we establish some relationship. And that is just harder when you don't. You may have to look for and find, you know, those things that connect you and bring you together. I feel like it requires a little bit more work, you know, than if, if I'm sitting across from a person who looks like me, you know, or we came from, grew up in the same city, or there's some like, natural connection and, you know, being really transparent. There's also sort of the recognition of the power dynamic. Like we, we are sitting in a real power dynamic. You have resources, I need resources. And how do I manage the real power differential that's there, but manage it in a way that doesn't leave me feeling powerless, that, you know, how do I sometimes literally need to psych myself up to come into those spaces so that I'm sitting and talking from a place of power and not just feeling like a beggar, you know, coming like, please, please help me. Because that's not going to help that from that perch. That perspective is never going to help our work. I feel like that's how organizations have mission creep and are sort of chasing projects based on a particular set of funding that may not have anything to do with their mission. I have to come from a place of power where I am passionate about what we do. It is an opportunity to find where our passions align and to do some good things together. But it takes work to make sure I'm coming in that position versus a powerless perspective.

[Joan Gary]

Thank you for being so transparent about that. I think that even if you are talking with someone, even if I'm as a white presenting person and I'm fundraising and I am asking someone with a great deal of capacity to make a donation to my organization, that dynamic exists, right?

[Jami Hodge]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

But when, Mikayla, when I am a white person with capacity, then it's so Much more complicated for you if you are talking to a white presenting individual like it's a different. It's yet another layer of this power dynamic where you actually have to work really hard to own your power as a leader of an organization that's doing really fine work that they would be lucky to be a part of of. Right. But the, the right, it's not. So I guess what I'm, I'm just offering a opportunity to throw in here, Michaela, is just like that power dynamic exists even when someone looks just like me. If I'm the, if I'm the fundraiser and you're the person with the capacity, but then it is just head explosion emoji different if people are of different races.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yep, yep, it is, it is. And I think one of the things that I try to name and obviously not all funders are going to get all the things and all the transparency. So like as Jami said, if you're building relationship and you come to understand that a funder or donor has a certain set of assumptions and like you can relate to them and explain certain things, you can have this conversation. But the reality is with money and power in this country, we also don't believe that poor folks and black folks and folks that are most directly impacted by violence necessarily deserve it in the same way. Like I think we don't say that explicitly, right. But we kind of have this weird like relationship with like a merit based earning of money. And so I think part of the American dream, which you know, I talk about a lot, I'm an immigrant, so like I come in from this external lens and I think it's really interesting that I chalk it up to like our puritanical roots as a nation. But we really do have an issue with like, you're not a good person so why should you get money? Like you. And we talk about the fact that a lot of the communities that we're working alongside, some of the moms, for example, have had one son who's in prison and incarcerated because they caused harm and another one that's been a victim of harm. And so in that community the whole black and white thing kind of dissolves because like it just isn't the case. Its false. And as a black fundraiser, I think we would love to see more trust be given to some of these communities because you're trusting like with venture capital dollars, some random folks who have business ideas, just ideas, some of which are false. Like I think about so many examples. We've seen them in films of late, of People coming up with hair brained schemes and ideas and like getting millions of dollars to try an innovation and if it fails, they get a golden parachute and someone else takes over, they file for bankruptcy, they start again. When our communities have things that they're doing, often because of in kind donations and volunteer time and they're scrappy and they're making it work and they ask for funding to scale and actually do it well, they have to jump through so many hoops and I think that's just, it's a problem and I think it's based in racism, it's based in classism, and I think it's up to us to kind of call that out too.

[Joan Gary]

Right? There's a lot in all of this. So the Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com slash podcast. We are talking with Jamie Hodge and Michaela Lavons, who are fundraising partners as the executive director and the Chief Development officer at Equal justice usa. And our conversation today is about honestly, what is it like to be what are the complexities of being a fundraiser of color? And I want to move to this. I found this an interesting report. And by the way, if the organizations that you referenced earlier in the show, Mikaela, if any of these gatherings have websites or anything like that, we'll make sure that they get the visibility that you would like them to have in the show notes as well. So Cause Effective did a report called the Lived Experience of Fundraisers of Color. And one of the development directors that was surveyed was quoted as saying fundraising reflects and magnifies the racial hierarchies of our culture. And Jami, I'd just love to hear you reflect on that statement, amplify some of the things that you've already said and sort of talk to me about that statement.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, no, I think it's. I had a chance to review the report and I think my biggest takeaway was it's validating. You know, like sometimes you do wonder, and I think this is part of the burden that people don't understand is how much you have to question things that you are either sensing or feeling. Is it me? Is it this person? Is this a race thing? Is it they're just not a nice person or not having a good day. But from every interaction to, you know, if I speak to someone and they don't speak back, what's behind it, you know, there's always a questioning. I have recently begun to think I might have to start dressing nicer to fly because I fly a lot. And I am like running into these interactions in airports that I feel like are just flat out disrespectful for no reason. And it's, I'm like, you know, when I used to have to travel a lot and wore more suits, I didn't have these questions. So, you know, and I, it's a constant questioning. Did, did you, you know, look me in my face when I asked you a question and not respond because I'm a black woman or because you're rude to everyone. You know, like, I, I, it's that constant questioning. And so seeing so many, you know, sort of stories and responses and, you know, of what the burden and the challenge and the extra work it takes to build relationship and do what, you know, is so necessary for us to be successful at our jobs. To hear it's like, oh, okay, it isn't just me, you know, this is a thing, it is real, you know, was for me validating.

[Joan Gary]

Speaking of dressing, I actually think that that burden lives on a. I just read an article in the New York Times about the clothing that a woman running for president should wear and not wear. And so it's all there. It's just all there. So let me turn it back to Mikayla. Right. Fundraising reflects and magnifies the racial hierarchies of our culture. Thoughts about that statement. And then maybe a follow up question. Mikayla, there is no question. And Jami is actually talking about them too. Microaggressions. Right. That happen. And so maybe a little reflection on the statement at large. And then what do you do? I think I was talking to both of you about this book by Tiffany Jana called Subtle Acts of Exclusion that she sort of rejects the idea that things are microaggressions because they're not really. And they're not really aggressions and they're certainly not Microsoft. But so anyway, so anything you'd add to Jami's comment about the sort of magnifying the racial hierarchies of our culture. And then I am really interested because I know there are people out here that are thinking, what do I do when I'm a fundraiser of color and someone says something that's quite offensive to me?

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, I mean, I think the statement is accurate. Like, it does kind of magnify, and I think it has a lot to do with, like, money and the emotion around money. I think about Ria Wong, who's an Asian American woman who does consulting, too. Love Ria.

[Joan Gary]

I know Ria.

[Mikayla Lavons]

She was here in New Jersey. It was so cool to see her. But she talks a lot about the kind of emotions around money and how you grow up with money. And, like, I think we have to admit that in this country, different people relate to money differently depending on how you show up, your racial history, whether you're an immigrant or not, whether you were, you know, born, like, in poverty or, like, you had job generations of wealth. And so that all funnels into that power dynamic Jami was talking about. So in addition to racial hierarchy, there's power hierarchy, there's monetary hierarchy, and it does get amplified in fundraising, for sure.

[Joan Gary]

Okay, microaggressions. What do you do with them? Because they happen. I mean, they used to happen when I was. I mean, they certainly used to happen when I was raising money for LGBT causes. And, you know, I'm sorry. Right? I mean, it happens. What do you do? Do you.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I know. Yeah. You know, I have learned so much from, as I mentioned, the colleagues in the higher ed spaces, because the things they go through were so shocking to me that the stories really stuck. And what really helped was just knowing you have a leader that has your back. So, like, if I were to ever go to Jami and say these things were said in a funder conversation or this is how I felt when I was speaking to a potential major donor, when I was meeting with someone in person, I don't have a doubt that she would make a call that is protective of me as an individual. And we would obviously make a decision based on, like, what makes sense long term. But I don't feel like I need to be sacrificed on the altar of getting a dollar. And I think that's so important, because I think, unfortunately, some folks question that. Some folks are like, I. And we've seen it. Even with association of Fundraising Professionals Global, they were doing a study on women in fundraising. I think they released results a couple years ago, but they found the number of sexual harassment incidents was pretty outrageous, and it had become commonplace. And I think similarly for those of us who are, like, racial minorities and black folks in particular, I think we have to just fight against the instinct to think that this is normal. Like, it's okay. These people are from a certain time and era. And so for me, it's really about kind of Preparing that if something were to happen or if things do happen, I'm okay with walking away.

[Joan Gary]

You happen to have a boss you highly respect who looks like you.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Right?

[Jami Hodge]

Right.

[Joan Gary]

How much different would it be for you, Mikayla, if that were not true? Right. If. If you, if your boss was. Did not look like you, would you.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Oh, my gosh, so different. So different. I mean, I've.

[Joan Gary]

I've had.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I think Jami might be my first black woman long term. I think I had one black woman CEO for a short time. But, yeah, I've had bosses who are very well meaning folks. To be clear, you don't get into this kind of work if you're just in it for money. Right? But I remember, for example, one person, she was very concerned and she said, you know, a lot of our major donors are older, wealthy white men. How do you think you'll relate to them? And I was like, what do you mean? I mean, we'll find common ground. We'll talk about what's in as usual. And she's like, yeah, but, you know, because, like, you're. You're so different. And I'm like, what? Say, say. What do you mean different how? Like a young black woman. Okay. And so just even talking through that, for her, she was coming from a place of, like, being cautious and concerned. But for me, it was a little bit disheartening to see that the approach was not, let's make sure you have what you need so that you can walk with confidence in these conversations. It was more, how are you going to deal with this massive liability of your identity? I think that we can do better when we think about supporting our staff. And like you said earlier, Joan, when people are hiring all these fabulous black and brown young people, older people, whoever, it's important to, like, think about what support are you going to build in so that they can thrive in their full identity, not that they have to suppress it.

[Joan Gary]

So either of you can answer this, but as a fundraiser of color, and you are interviewing for a position at an organization, what are you looking for? Right. What are the questions you ask? What are the ways that you can identify that there are flags on the field that are going to indicate to you whether or not you're going to have someone who's going to sort of have your back or someone who is more about how do we manage the risk associated with this? Or, you know, like, because more and more people are being recruited to these jobs, and as the boulder rolls downhill, fewer organizations are ready for what this looks like. So As a prospective development director in an organization, what advice would you offer to somebody who's interviewing for a job in social change as a fundraiser of color? Jami, I'm happy to have you, Jo.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, I'm happy to jump in. Yeah. I think if you are interviewing and racial equity, and particularly you're a person of color who's stepping into a role where we know these dynamics matter. Though for me, I would say it broadly. I, I can't imagine going to an organization where we go through an interview process and race equity doesn't come up.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Jami Hodge]

You know, both just as where the organization stands on these issues, what they are doing, both not just externally, but internally in their processes, to be on a journey to make sure there's learning. If that hasn't come up, that's a huge red flag. Huge red flag. And then I think the opposite is true. If it is something you're being questioned about and asked about, it gives you a sense of how important it is to the organization. They're not just talking about it, they're assessing. Will you fit into our culture? Because we're on a journey here. This is important to us. We are working on these issues. So I, that definitely is part of it. This conversation that Michaela referenced, it was kind of funny to me because it was like the supervisor was afraid to say black.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Jami Hodge]

You know, like afraid to even just name the thing that is not, that's a. They can't talk. They can't say the words. Can't talk about it. Huge red flag.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I, I, this seems like a high digression, but our kid, who is now 35 and no longer a kid, we were interviewing for a local at a local private school. And the director of admissions literally said, because we had three kids, my wife and I, we. No one here at this academy will have any problem with your issue. And I said, wait, what? Right. I said, you know what? I'm actually not. We're not an issue. And we just took your school off the list of perspective just because we live at the right address and you want to check a box that says diversity students, like, that's your deal. Right. But you can't name it. No way. No way, no how. Right? So you're absolutely right question. Either of you people say, we are working on it, we are on a journey. Is that enough? Like, what do you like? I don't think it's enough to hear that because it can be said. What is an example of something you would hear that would make you say they are legitimately on a journey.

[Jami Hodge]

So I'll just use our organization and my own process, which was only three years ago. I took over from a white woman who was a founder, so gave birth to this thing, ran it for 21 years. Her name is Shari Silberstein. And when she made the decision first, it was an intentional decision. So this, this definitely was. Was something that stood out to me. She made an intentional decision to step down because the work became clearer and clearer, that racial justice was becoming more at the forefront. And she recognized that the work needed a leader who not only was a leader of color, but who'd been impacted by the issues that we work on. And that it was time for her to make room, to step down and make room. So from the beginning, that was important for me to know. Secondly, she was preparing the organization and the board. The board had been with her from the beginning. They were a founders board. And she began working with a consultant on what does it mean to go from a white led organization to an organization that will be black led. And doing that intentional work around understanding how white supremacy shows up in a culture can show up in board dynamics, having real learning sessions. And she set a precedent of board meetings that always have at some time dedicated to a race equity learning piece that we continue to this day. So these are concrete things you can point to. It's not just, oh, we're on a journey or we're aware. We're actually investing resources and making sure we bring in expertise. We are dedicating time in an important packed agenda. Those are real markers of a seriousness. Like we're not just saying it, we're doing it.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. And it's. I am heartened by a number of coaching clients that I have who have come to me and said, I need to off ramp over the next three years. I want to do a really good job of that. But I don't think I'm the right person to run this organization as a white person. And I want to ready. I'm not a DEI consultant, but I want to ready myself to leave, strengthen the organization and do all the things that will do as much as possible to embrace all of what superpowers a new leader of color will bring. It is heartening, but I'm seeing more of that. I actually just hired a CEO to run my nonprofit leadership lab, which is a membership site, and it has always been her. She is a LGBT person and many of the people served by the LGBT center in New York City, where she's been for the last 14 years do not look like her. Right. They are LGBT, but they're Latinx or they're black. Right. And they did the work. They hired a wonderful rock star woman of color. And by, you know, by all measures, they did. They did the work just like. Just like your founder did. And I think that's really important. Mikaela, is there anything that you would add on the. I'm interviewing for a job piece of this puzzle. I have a couple more questions and then let you go back to your very important and hard job.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Yeah, I mean, I think that generally speaking, you do want to see what's, like, on the books. So whether it be in the budget, what time is allocated, what resources are allocated for race equity. So it's more than just like something that you're saying, but then also listen to how they talk about race. So if they're saying things like, we don't see color, and even though it's not about black or Latinx, it's all about, like, we're all the same. Like, that kind of language tells you that. I don't know if you necessarily want to be the person that's the guinea pig as this organization is trying to find their way. Right?

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I mean, that's hard. That will take a toll on you. So I know for me, like, that would be a red flag.

[Joan Gary]

Listen, I hope everybody's listening. Mikayla talked about how hard it is, and she works for a woman who looks like her, who has her back. She talked about the very complex layers of hard. Right. And so please listen to what they are saying and don't take these things lightly.

[Jami Hodge]

Jami, I just want to add that. And it's not enough just to have a leader of color like I. For me, it is. I take so seriously the understanding of how white supremacy is built into hierarchy and how power dynamics. Like, I come in, I sit at the top of this organization, I hold a lot of power and authority, and there is white supremacy baked all in that. And so making sure that I understand that I can just as easily as the white person before me, be harmful and move in white supremacist ways if I am not constantly interrogating myself. And we have a race equity leadership team that I have been really clear that you are my counterbalance. Like, I need you to know you have authority. And in fact, I'm asking you make sure you are holding me and our leadership team accountable. Just because we're diverse, just because we're black, just because we're impacted, doesn't mean we're not going to perpetuate harm because that's just what exists in hierarchy. So making sure that we are constantly interrogating all of us, how we can show up in these systems.

[Joan Gary]

I really hope that. I mean, what I am hearing is just getting right to my. The Yiddish word is kishkas, Right? To my kishkas is how self aware these. That Mikayla and Jami are and how self aware you need to be of all of these things around you. And it requires a lot of thought, a lot of introspection, a lot of reflection, and a lot of learning. And so I want to just name that the last question. There is a Stanford Social Innovation Review article. It's from a couple of years ago, but I found it quite interesting and I'm not actually sure if I shared it with Michaela and Jami, but I don't think it matters, actually, because here's the title of this. The title of this SSIR article is what Everyone Can Learn from Leaders of Color. And I think I started at the open talking about, or maybe I didn't include it. I have the right to forget things that I think that my sexual identity makes me a better leader. There are people that will say to me, gee, if you could turn a switch and be heterosexual, wouldn't you do that? I mean, right? No, it makes me authentic. I think I model authenticity. Right. I believe that I am more empathetic. Like, there is a whole host of things that are superpowers I have that come with my lived experience as an LGBTQ person. And I think far too often. And you've talked about Mikaela, and I really appreciate it, you've talked about the supports that leaders and fundraisers of color need and colleagues, and I'm not alone. And has that happened to you? Right? And how do you best handle these situations? So, so important coaching, all of those things. Right? But I think far too often we come from that place and we don't come from the place of, oh, my gosh, Michaela and Jami. They bring superpowers that are unique to them because of who they are, because of their identities, because of their lived experience. And I wanted to end this way because I feel like we come from a place of how do we. So how do we set folks of color up to succeed when, in fact, they're carrying a whole rollerboard filled. That's my traveling metaphor there, Jami. A whole rollerboard full of superpowers. And I want you guys, I would love for both of you to weigh in on that. Maybe we'll start with Mikayla. What are the superpowers that you bring in the way that I describe mine.

[Mikayla Lavons]

I'll start with the notion of being comfortable with the uncomfortable. So we remember at the beginning we talked about, like being a fundraiser, especially a fundraiser of color means sitting in discomfort and tension. That's not an unusual dynamic for a person of color, specifically a black woman, Black immigrant woman. Like, yeah, we know how to do that pretty well. And so I think if we lean into that as an asset, then we can actually make it part of our superpower and we can even explain it to colleagues. Like, why is it that this will not be resolved? Well, it's because this is inherently uncomfortable, but it's okay. We can do hard things, we can move through it and get our job done.

[Joan Gary]

And you have the most radiant smile. I just want people to say we can do hard things was followed by this incredibly radiant smile and eyes that light up.

[Jami Hodge]

Yeah, I think when I think about sitting in funder meetings, my job is to show that this work is an incredible and I can bring up passion about it because I have lived it, you know. And I think it was brilliant of Shari, our founder, to recognize that it isn't just a leader of color, but it is someone who's been impacted. Because when I talk about this work, I'm going to talk about it from the heart. It is not, it is not academic. It is because I have seen and lived both the impacts of violence, the impacts of our system's failed response to violence, the harm of incarceration, like all of it. I have walked the journey and I see it and so I can talk about it from a different position. And then I also think to be able to lead with, lead differently. In preparation for this role, I wanted to do my homework. I'm very type A, that comes from legal training, get the leadership books. And I just couldn't. Some of them I couldn't even finish. I was just like, this is not me. I am not going to lead this way. And you know, I had a dear friend tell me who watched me lead, you know, organize and lead a big convening and bring a bunch of pretty high level leaders together. And she's like, john, me, you lead with love. And I just want to name that for you and have you appreciate that is how you lead and be okay with it. Right. And so I think just being able to lead, when you mentioned being authentic, you know, being empathetic, that comes when you can be okay doing it differently. Because I've always had to do it differently and not be afraid.

[Joan Gary]

And you can also hold love and accountability in equal. Absolutely. And that's not a bad tension. That's an important tension. Right. I just want, I want to know. Right. Because children, right. That's actually, that's actually a harder conversation. I also think there's a resilience, there's a determination. There are. Right. Your lived, your lived experience or some of my. Right. All of those. Right. There's something, something uniquely strong. Right. There's a unique self awareness. And I, and I just think bringing all of that to the table is indeed the superpower of having the lived experience or you know, so coming to the work and leading differently. So we're going to leave it right there. You have just heard from two I said badass, smart, funny. But what I don't think I said was really super wise. These are wise women and wise women who do this work with both a sense of privilege and a real sense of joy. And I have had the privilege of knowing them and working with them and I see it and I feel it and I hope you really heard it as well. So Mikayla, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for the work that you're doing, for your insights and for the wonderful work that you do.

[Mikayla Lavons]

Thanks, Joan. Thanks for having us.

[Joan Gary]

And Johnny, thank you so much for the leadership and some of the innovation that you're bringing to the work with the bringing in the restorative justice piece. And I am anxious to continue conversation about how that goes. And all of that is because the two of you have opted to lean into leading differently. So thank you both very, very much. For those of you who are listening, thank you for taking time out of your day to be enriched by our conversation today. I don't take it for granted that you're busy. Maybe you're on an elliptical machine, I don't know. Maybe. I do know that there are people who garden and listen to me. But wherever you are, thank you for investing a little bit of time today to enrich yourself on these issues. Thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. And I look forward to talking to you next time. Take very good care. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.