← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep 214: Productive Conversations in Polarizing Conflicts (with Parisa Parsa)
00:48:32
Nonprofit Leadership Lab CEO, Glennda Testone, and Parisa Parsa explore how nonprofit leaders can have productive conversations amidst polarization and division. Parisa shares practical strategies for addressing power dynamics and leading productive co...
Loading summary
Transcript80 lines
- [00:00]
Glenda Testone
Hi. First of all, I'm not Joan Gary, but I do work closely with her. My name is Glenda Testone and I am the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and a senior partner at Joan Gary Consulting. Before that, I lived Nonprofits are Messy for over 20 years as a leader, both in board and staff seats. I come to you, dear listeners, as a listener, both an avid podcast listener and an occasional guest and co host on this very podcast. I also come to you having walked, run, and even limped in your shoes. I truly get what you're facing and going through, and I want to help. So today I am so excited to be able to offer you something truly valuable insight and even better practical tools for having better professional conversations and building stronger, more trusting professional relationships. Now, this is all, of course, amidst a lot of division, polarization and tumult. When my guest, Parisa Parsa was first on this podcast, it was January 2017 and Donald Trump was just elected president. Joan and Parisa talked a lot about how divided and polarized the world was and how to have respectful, curious, productive conversations given that circumstance. I wish seven years later, I could say that things have gotten better in that regard, but I fear they might have gotten worse. We are on the cusp of another divisive American presidential election, with deep tumult across the globe in Gaza, Sudan, and Ukraine, to name a few examples. And the nonprofit sector is not unscathed. In fact, many nonprofits things feel very tense, divided, and untenable. I remember when I first became the executive director at the LGBT Community center in New York City, and within a year of me starting my very first executive director job, we found ourselves at the center of the conflict between Israel and Palestine. I could not have been less equipped to deal with it, and it lasted fiercely, on and off for two years. Boy, do I wish I had known you then, Parisa. And boy, am I glad that I am able to share you and your work with folks now. Stay tuned for some conversation that will help you be way better equipped to deal with conflict than I was.
- [02:58]
Joan Gary
Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn more@joengarry.com I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know that nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception.
- [03:41]
Glenda Testone
Parisa is no stranger to the Nonprofits Are Messy Podcast or the Nonprofit Leadership Lab community. Parisa has done two podcasts with us, episode 28, difficult conversations and uncertain times right after the 2016 election and episode 84, passion, conflict, diversity and Leadership. I highly, highly recommend both of these and so if you are salivating at this podcast topic, the good news is there's more. Please go back and listen to those podcasts. You will walk away wiser and better for it, I promise. I sure did. I also recently had the pleasure of hosting Parisa for an expert seminar for the nonprofit Leadership Lab membership called Building Trust in the Midst of Tumult. Parisa has a ton of experience in the nonprofit space and in the Faith Based religious space as an ordained Unitarian Universalist minister and across a whole host of issues, the environment, guns, Israel, Palestine, etc.
- [04:47]
Parisa Parsa
Etc.
- [04:48]
Glenda Testone
Please check out her bio in the show Notes for more information on her LinkedIn profile. Parisa says communities in which people are connected, seen for who they are, as different as they might be, require commitment. It takes courage to ask a different question, to see the difference as an invitation and conflict as an opportunity. This is Parisa. My work is about building strong individuals and communities that are willing to listen generously and speak truthfully about their experience and their hopes. It's about building the world that is possible if we start to stitch our passions and commitments together to tell a new story that includes all of us. Parisa, welcome.
- [05:39]
Parisa Parsa
Thank you so much for having me. It's really wonderful to be in this community again.
- [05:44]
Glenda Testone
Well, we are lucky to have you and we need you now more than ever. I know a heck of a lot of leaders in my world that are trying to build the world that you're talking about. So first, can you give a couple of examples from your work? I want to start on the good side, on the positive side. Give me an example, at least one of nonprofits who are guiding us from that fear and division to that creativity and connection. Give us some hope. Parisa.
- [06:17]
Parisa Parsa
Well, I'm delighted to tell you that there is a huge network actually of nonprofits that are doing amazing work in the arena of dialogue and working to increase connection across our especially our US Partisan divides. But globally, peace building work is strong and vibrant. One organization is Shameless Plug Organization. I used to lead Essential Partners which is doing fantastic work on building dialogue practices in classrooms to help young people engage constructive while they navigate their own identities and ideas as they're sort of developing their ideas about the world and not just the ones that you know, they're inheriting. And Essential Partners also has a ton of free online dialogue resources on many different topics and lots of tips and tricks that they provide freely. They're one of the OG dialogue organizations having been around since the late 1980s, and I just can vouch for all of their guides and resources being used for effectively connecting around topics from abortion to what's often called our Red Blue divide in the US to discussions about Israel and Hamas.
- [07:30]
Glenda Testone
As you mentioned, Barisa, I went there after listening to your first two podcasts with Nonprofits Are Messy and I was overwhelmed with what seemed like really gold star resources. So I appreciate you mentioning that. I think our listeners will really appreciate those resources.
- [07:50]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, whatisential.org is the website.
- [07:54]
Glenda Testone
Awesome.
- [07:54]
Parisa Parsa
And then I want to also shout out on the Israel Hamas, Israel Palestine area the international organization called the Parent Circle Families Forum. They bring together parents who have lost children to violence in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, and they build community and connection while promoting alternatives and peaceful possibilities, building community and also really advocating for collaborative solutions across that deepest and most tragic of divides right now. I had the chance to meet with two of their key spokespeople in Israel last July, and I've just been so deeply moved by their ongoing commitment to state staying in relationship and to creating a bigger story than one that divides their very small territory. So I just want to say Parent Circle Families Forum, check them out.
- [08:49]
Glenda Testone
I appreciate that so much, and it made me think about, you know, being a nonprofit leader. I'm not sure we always think about who the messenger or relationship builder should be as much as we should. And it strikes me that in this organization you're talking about, it's actually parents of children who are connecting. Is that something that you found in your work, looking for different people to get and stay in relationships connected to an issue? Is that one of the ways that we can have more productive relationships and conversations?
- [09:28]
Parisa Parsa
Definitely. It goes back to one of those key principles of community organizing and progressive social change, is that you go to the people, people most effective to ask what solutions will be, you know, they wish for and how they can be part of engaging in making that reality possible. So I think hearing from the folks who have lost the most, who have the most at stake, is always a key place to start. Often we find ourselves in these sort of heady debates, three steps removed and you know, full of our righteous anger about this, that and the other thing. And we're not really understanding the problem fully because we're not the most proximate. So getting proximate, I think is one of the key things from Justice Stevens that's so good.
- [10:14]
Glenda Testone
So I hear two things from you already. One, start with the people that are most impacted or affected. Most proximate, you said. And then get as proximate as you can to those people, which may in fact mean giving them the microphone or giving them the power in some way.
- [10:33]
Parisa Parsa
Absolutely. And certainly getting them talking to each other if there's a conflict.
- [10:36]
Glenda Testone
Absolutely. So. So let's break it down. I want to introduce our amazing audience to some of the concepts that you use to build trust and embrace difference. And this is a quote from you. Dance with conflict and make sure in all of that that people are seen for who they are and that we can tell stories that include all of us. I don't know about you listeners, but I would like some of that and I see a whole lot of the opposite. So. So I'm curious, just to get us started, what concepts? What are some of the concepts that you've learned in your years of service and experience that you think will be most helpful to our nonprofit leader audience today?
- [11:23]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah. One of the things I want to say straight up to nonprofit leaders is that nothing about this is easy. So I think that we often carry these images of a good leader, will fill in the blank, will show up non defensively and always have the right thing to say and speak eloquently at all times or whatever your blanks are that you feel like you're not adequate at. I think one of the key things that we have to do is to understand the challenge and also to, because of that challenge, attend to our own sense of balance and well being. By which I don't mean sort of, you know, leaving the office at 2pm or taking a spa day. I mean like really, I mean, if you can do that, that's great. But really attending to your own trauma, your own fears, your own anxieties, you know, I found myself just last week wondering why I was, you know, awake more than just my usual one time in the night.
- [12:24]
Glenda Testone
Yeah.
- [12:24]
Parisa Parsa
And then, you know, my husband said to me, well, you know, look around. Anxiety provoking news right now, maybe that has something to do with it. Honey. Yeah. And having to be reminded of that. And also like really taking time for attending to the fact that many of us are feeling tremendously vulnerable. You know, we're Living in a world where our fundamental rights to be who we are are being negotiated by people who know nothing about that or nothing about our experience. And whether that has to do with your direct work, if you're an advoc organization or relief organization, or if you're. It's just the backdrop to whatever else you're doing, it's a real and significant stressor. So taking time to make sure you're attending to your own healing, your own well being in those really deep ways. So this is where I'm a really big fan of folks like Adrienne Maree Brown and Prentice Hempel who are linking the work of social change with so the service and the care of our bodies and ourselves that it's not optional to link those things and understand that we as an organism are affected by and affecting the organisms and the world that we're hoping to change. So really thinking about the whole as integral is so, so important. And that means taking extra time even though we feel the urgency. We're not going to do it right if we're rushing and not attending.
- [13:54]
Glenda Testone
You are so speaking my language. And my spouse, Jama Shelton is borderline obsessed with Adrienne Maree Brown. Jayma is has a PhD in social organizing and community organizing. And so Adrienne Maree Brown and Prentice Hempel is sort of their latest. I hear those names a lot around my household and we have a lot of conversations and I it's interesting because what you're talking about, you know, I've been in the nonprofit space for 20 plus years and I feel like when I started there was very much an ethos of you do it for the cause. You work long hours, you put yourself, your needs aside. It's not about you. I mean, this is something we even say in the nonprofit leadership lab. It's not about you. But this is a moment where you're saying something really important that I think we don't hear enough, which is you can't ignore what's going on for you and what gets kicked up for you when you start dealing with these really complex issues, either in the foreground or as the backdrop. How have you seen people, leaders successfully navigate that? I remember when I was a leader desperately looking, I think I probably wanted a hack or something. Like if a spa day would have done it, that would have been great. But it doesn't quite work like that. But what are there any practices or examples that you've seen leaders employ that you think really help them not lose themselves in the tumult Yeah, I think.
- [15:31]
Parisa Parsa
Really having good practices for checking in with yourself, whatever those are for you. Some people do it by running, some people take a little walk or need to look outside at some birds or, you know, breath meditation. There's sort of, you know, we know there's a whole variety of things, but engaging those practices sort of really frequently throughout the day that help to help you become aware of what's happening internally for you. We're often so externally focused in responding to a million external stimuli and feeling like we have to be there for that. But we can be there for it much more authentically and profoundly if we're actually in touch with what's going on for us, including being able to say, you know, this is really activating for me. I need to step away for a minute. And I think that from a leader doing that gives other people permission to do that. A leader reflecting that sort of need to take time to check in kind of creates that culture in the organization in a way that doesn't have to make you sort of more vulnerable to criticism, but rather can say, yeah, I'm doing this and I want you to do it too. And to start creating some different kinds of patterns. Because that sort of hard driving. It isn't about any of us individually, but it is about all of us collectively. Right. I think that's the shift from what you were saying, is that sort of. So how do we think about the humane ways to go about doing the really urgent work of change making, but also staying attuned to the fact that it's not, you know, some of this stuff is an arc that is bigger than our lifetime so we can take a breath. And it's not, you know, the world is not going to end if we miss this particular deadline because we were actually taking time to listen to each other and make sure it was the right thing.
- [17:26]
Glenda Testone
You know, that is so true. And I think we don't see leaders do that enough. And if leaders are not willing to do it, then certainly no one else is going to do it. It makes me think of like Simone Miles and the Tokyo Olympics and, you know, now she's back and she did exactly what she needed to do for herself. So be Simone Biles. Don't be that.
- [17:54]
Parisa Parsa
That's right.
- [17:55]
Glenda Testone
Don't be that martyr that if you're anything like me, you were taught to be. That's not going to keep you engaged and energized in this fight. And. And we need you for that. So what else, Parisa? What. What else do you think as people are trying to navigate these tough times and, and build those relationships internally and externally and, and really have that foundation so they can face whatever they are going to face.
- [18:23]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah. Another thing that I sort of learned the hard way and from another mentor of mine is that it's. And this became a mantra that I found annoying at times was that in times of stress and anxiety, we have to attend to core functions. So that means you just lost a major funder and you were planning a staff retreat and you were all going to go on bumper boats together and now it feels like you have to cancel that entirely and buckle down and do your thing. Actually go do the bumper boats. Go do the thing, you know, or you know, you've got like a million things going on and you want to postpone staff reviews for another three months or something.
- [19:09]
Glenda Testone
Yeah.
- [19:10]
Parisa Parsa
And then not have those conversations. Right. There's always stuff that feels more urgent than doing the stuff that is important. And keeping, especially when it feels like you can't afford to let anything go, keeping to those core, core functions really helps build a trustworthy organization that gives people the understanding that they can, you know, you're going to do what you, what they expect you to do, it's going to be followed through. That sort of reduces the level of anxiety and stress in a system tremendously. Even if it feels like as a leader you're holding more of it because you're, you're navigating, keeping all of those places, plates spinning, but keeping those core functions in working order, attending to updating your policies and working on your board, you know, your bylaws and all of those things is so important because when we let those things go and then a moment of crisis hits, we don't have that backstop. That is the institutional structure that is there to hold us in those times of the boat rocking. It's the, the sides of the ship, you want them to be seaworthy. So I think it's, it's a little counterintuitive, especially in our stress rate ridden times. But it's really important.
- [20:26]
Glenda Testone
I will just say from my experience, I can relate to that and I have definitely made good choices and bad choices as a leader in those moments. You know, it's. Yeah, we all have, it's very easy to convince yourself when you are dealing with something, a crisis directly that feels like a crisis to you to say, oh, we don't have time for that staff meeting or I have to cancel that meeting with that person because this is more important. And the reality is that it Might be objectively outside of a context, be more important. But if you let those things go, that introduces more stress and anxiety to the system beyond yourself. Then my entire staff is like, whoa, what's going on? Why are we canceling a staff meeting? I mean, I knew things were tough, but what's happening? So I think that balance is a. Is a really important one and not one that I admittedly have always balanced in the right way.
- [21:36]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, yeah. And just to be clear, there are always times when you have to make those decisions and, like, one thing will have to go, but really holding to the core things that you can hold to, or postponing them tentatively and letting folks know what's, you know, really helps with the sense of stability. And we are, you know, we're doing okay, even if we are going through a tough time.
- [22:00]
Glenda Testone
Yeah. I would say. Sometimes people ask me, what's the biggest difference between for profit and nonprofit? And I always say there's a lot more communication, a lot more talking and listening and conversing in nonprofits than I think in For Profits. And whatever decision you make as a leader in that moment, the communication about it is usually equally important. You know, if you cancel that staff meeting, but you say, look, everything's fine. I need to cancel this because I need to talk to this person. They can only speak at this time. That making sure everybody knows as much as they can about what is going on can certainly help a lot. Do you find that in your work too?
- [22:46]
Parisa Parsa
Right? Absolutely. Yeah. I think the more leaders can explain decisions or changes in relationship to the core values and mission of the organization, also, it helps folks really understand the consistency and the integrity of that decision, even if they don't agree with it, so to say, you know, and we all often are dealing with values that are in conflict. Like, we really think it's important for us to have this time to connect as a staff, and this other thing has happened, and it puts this other value at stake. So I'm making this decision for this, you know, so really helping with the sense making around it so that folks have a container to hold it in that is consistent with what you're all doing, what you've all signed on for is really helpful.
- [23:37]
Glenda Testone
Yeah, well, and we're getting into conflict, which is unavoidable in the world. If you're willing to go with me, Parisa, I wanna just share a couple of things that I've heard come up, either in the membership of the lab or in my own experience recently that leaders are managing and kind of what advice you might give them on kind of dancing with this conflict or navigating it. One category of conflict that comes up is sort of the internal conflict. And this could be, you know, you have a nonprofit staff that is feeling underappreciated and not listened to and may have gone so far as to say, you know, we think we want to start a union because we're just not getting what we need. How would you advise a leader in that organization to engage in that conversation with staff? Because that is absolutely. Whether it goes all the way to, you know, organizing and actually considering joining a union, unionizing or not, that is just everywhere. So how might you help a leader approach that situation?
- [24:56]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, it's really challenging when we feel like our leadership is what's on the line. And so I really encourage folks to sort of widen the frame from personalizing it into one's own leadership to saying what's happening in this organization or in our, you know, sector space right now or in the world that is sort of creating this sense and what can we learn from it about how. How organizational structure needs to change, how our internal communication, you know what, without assuming that everything needs to change. You know, there's often this sort of pitched battle that is kind of a false narrative of the binary between management and labor or whatever. But there's. There's usually more going on than that. And so inviting sort of a more flexible or an opening of the aperture to really investigate what's going on and to reframe the conflict as an opportunity to just learn something about this moment, about what's needed, about who's feeling heard and unheard without getting, without first, then this is why the self care is so important, is that we don't want to be in that reactive space of saying, wait, I'm trying so hard on behalf of all you people. And whatever your go to is, whether it's the martyr thing or the I know I'm right about this, stop it. Any number of those things are very human responses. But being able to sort of step back and say, hey, what's really happening here? To get curious and to invite some listening is not necessarily to. I think sometimes folks feel like if they give any airtime to grievances, they're sort of there goes the neighborhood. But to really say, I really want to listen and understand without making a commitment to any particular decision or process to open up that space to help people feel heard and then to put, you know, use all of that data, all of that information from that people are sharing about their experience, to work with trusted internal folks to puzzle out, you know, what needs to happen next, what are the conversations we need to have? What are the pieces of our system that might not be working anymore? We're living in this time where the old institutional structures and systems are not serving us well. So what does it look like to start to reimagine? And I think this is, you know, that can be a really wonderful opportunity. And it's exhausting for leaders who are just trying to like, you know, make the budget and.
- [27:35]
Glenda Testone
Yeah.
- [27:36]
Parisa Parsa
Make sure one gets paid.
- [27:38]
Glenda Testone
Like we have a board meeting tonight. I don't have, you know, I don't have time for this. I have to think about that.
- [27:44]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, exactly.
- [27:45]
Glenda Testone
Yeah. I really deeply relate to that. And I love your, your note about approaching this with curiosity and looking at it, depersonalizing and looking at it as an opportunity. An opportunity to learn to see what's working and what might not be working. I think when you're in a leadership position, the pressure is like, you should know, you should already know what to do. And so this concept, which sounds quite tame of curiosity is so powerful and something I feel like we underutilize in leadership in general.
- [28:29]
Parisa Parsa
I think that one of the key reframes as a leader is that conflict is actually a sign that people care deeply. And that is really an important thing that you want in an organization. It means people are not shying away from their differences and that they care deeply enough that they're willing to take the risk of conflict. So especially in our largely conflict averse culture, you know, our normative sort of be nice and make nice conflict is really a great sign that an organization has enough juice that people are engaging. So trying to engage it productively is the next step. Right. You don't want the kind of conflict that ends up tearing everybody apart. But just the naming of a conflict is actually a really good and healthy sign for an organization and a working team.
- [29:23]
Glenda Testone
I completely agree with that. And I was surprised in my own career how many times simply naming what was going on was actually enough people. There wasn't a great resolution. But just acknowledging this is happening and these folks feel this and these folks feel this and I feel this and you feel that, and here we all are. Is actually a step, an active step in any kind of conflict conversation, relationship. I was just keenly aware of how that seemed like I was not doing enough. But sometimes, sometimes, not always, but sometimes that was actually enough.
- [30:13]
Parisa Parsa
Right. There are some conflicts that. And this is where I really like the term Dancing with conflict. I can't remember the origin. It was not with me. But it's that, you know, that there are some conflicts that are sort of healthy leavening in an organization and aren't going to go away like that. We're going to have different perspectives. We're going to have different life experiences that we bring. We have different identities. And so being able to stay in relationship and build respect and understanding, even though we're going to have these different perspectives is often. The solution is often learning how to work withholding the complexity of those different perspectives rather than trying to say, okay, there is this one. You know, this is going to be the right way, or this is the way that's going to weave through everyone's perspectives. And I can say for myself that some of the most enriching professional experiences I've had have been working with folks who have very different perspectives than I do. But then once I understand and know them, I actually carry their perspective with me as I'm doing whatever I'm doing. And it enriches and it helps expand my awareness of the impact of what I'm doing and saying in a way that is truly helpful. Right. So I think, you know, when we talk about partisan politics, it's really good to know folks that you respect and admire and are in relationship with who don't agree with you, because you become more aware of the impact of, you know, how you're choosing to communicate your. Your different perspective in ways that are respective and inclusive of their perspective as well, and not experienced as disrespectful and disparaging. You know, hopefully we could all be doing more of that.
- [32:04]
Glenda Testone
Yeah, I. Oh, boy, I hope so. I have another is sort of the second category of conflict that I feel like a lot of nonprofit leaders are facing, which is the conflict that sometimes comes from outside the organization. So it may be people who are connected to the organization, people who are served by the organization, or community members who come to an organization and, and say, I really want this organization to take a position on X. You know, and I can think of specific examples. I really love this organization. I believe in it. And I want it to come out and say that we need a ceasefire in Gaza. I want it to come out and say that people should vote for Democrats or whatever the case may be. How do you engage in that kind of conversation and relationship, assuming you as an organization or as a leader, want to be in relationship with those folks, that these are your people in some way, These are not people with radical, you know, Beliefs. These are people who are sometimes members or at least constituents of the organization, but they want something very specific and how to engage around that. I've seen it, I've lived it now.
- [33:30]
Parisa Parsa
I've lived it very recently. Yeah, I think again, the first step is really listening and listening for understanding. So really understanding what the frustration is, what the hope is, how they see the relationship of your organization and the position they're wishing you took, that is really important just to stay in relationship and have folks experience that you respect them enough to listen. The other thing is to have some really clear. This is back to the core functions thing. What is our process for deciding when we're going to make a public statement about something? Assuming it's something that's beyond what your day to day mission is, when do we speak up? Through what partnerships have we made an agreement to have solidarity through? You know, how does that work in your space, having that outlined and also understanding who the decision makers are. So, you know, sometimes as an ED or a leader in a nonprofit at any level, you have that authority and you can say, but also sometimes you need to run it by a lot of other people. And so being clear with folks who are coming to you to say we. Our process for this involves these steps. I can share this with the folks involved in that process, but to help them understand that it's not because of we're not hearing you, but we don't make these decisions rashly or, you know, and I think you could equally have the opposite thing where the organization has decided to take a stand and people are upset with you for taking that stand.
- [35:10]
Glenda Testone
Absolutely.
- [35:11]
Parisa Parsa
And again, I think, you know, really staying in relationship and listening is important. I think it's important also to be clear about what the level of sort of ownership or engagement is of the different constituencies in an organization. You know, that like you. Because you're. Because you have a lot of feelings does not necessarily mean.
- [35:33]
Glenda Testone
I think that's.
- [35:34]
Parisa Parsa
We all have a lot of feelings about.
- [35:35]
Glenda Testone
A lot of times working at a nonprofit you have to have a lot of feelings.
- [35:41]
Parisa Parsa
Right? Right. But just anyone with a lot of feelings doesn't get to call you up and say.
- [35:48]
Glenda Testone
I wish I knew that earlier in my career.
- [35:51]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, me too.
- [35:54]
Glenda Testone
I'm curious. You know, we have spent. And my philosophy is certainly one that's based much more in connection and relationship and working things out and really trying to find common ground even when it seems impossible. But how I do wonder, when should someone know, like when is it not a situation where you should stay in relationship, when you mentioned, for example, not everyone with a lot of feelings just gets to call you up and, you know, take your time and engage like this. How do you determine if you're in, you're building a relationship with someone or a group of people? How do you make those calls about where to spend your time as a leader and where it might not be productive and it might not be a great use of your time?
- [36:48]
Parisa Parsa
That is a question for the ages. I will say that I think especially leaders who are more femme identified are much more vulnerable to the projections that, you know, there's a caretaking that's expected. And you know, and many of us, I will speak for myself, you know, also really feel that obligation. Not everyone does, thankfully, but I. But so I think that it is really important to. In those moments where it feels like this too much is being asked of me, this is asking me to compromise something about myself that I can't afford to lose. This is feeling, you know, at the worst extreme, abusive in terms of how, you know, trying to. You don't want to be chasing someone who can't be in relationship in a way that is mutually beneficial. Right. So I think getting clear on, you know, the sort of core values that are expressed and communicated through the relationship and whether that's possible with whether it's an individual or an organization, and then also being able to say what you need in the relationship, which we always have permission and in fact are obligated to do, to say, you know, I can give you 15 minutes at this time. I have a lot of other things going on. You could also talk to this person or maybe put that in writing for me to get back to you later. You know, there's, you know, sort of setting the boundaries that feel right for you, consistent with your own values and sense of integrity and not feeling badly about, you know, drawing those lines when they need to be drawn because you. We're having to make so many decisions every day about how to spend our time. And the worst feeling is, you know, having spent a day or a week sort of sucked into something you really didn't want to be because you just sort of give a mouse a cookie kind of time, you know.
- [38:45]
Glenda Testone
Yeah. Yes, I want my girl. That resonates deeply.
- [38:49]
Parisa Parsa
Yes. Yeah.
- [38:52]
Glenda Testone
You give a mouse a cookie and then it just goes on and on and on. For those non parents out there, people unfamiliar with the book, it starts with.
- [39:00]
Parisa Parsa
The cookie and he's going to ask for a glass of milk, he's going.
- [39:02]
Glenda Testone
To ask for a glass of milk. Never going to end. It's never going to end. I'm really struck by two things you just mentioned. One is the thank you for bringing gender into the conversation. I am a femme identified person and definitely found that the expectations for me to listen and care and caretake were much felt unreachable sometimes, honestly. And so I think that to me, that boundaries point is really the answer. And Parentis Hemple has a definition of boundaries. Right. That they use that is like a boundary is the distance between us where I can still love myself and you. Something.
- [39:56]
Parisa Parsa
I'm.
- [39:57]
Glenda Testone
I'm butchering it. If my partner was here, JayM would.
- [40:00]
Parisa Parsa
Say the distance at which I can love myself and love you at the same time.
- [40:03]
Glenda Testone
Yes.
- [40:04]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah, something like that.
- [40:05]
Glenda Testone
Thank you.
- [40:05]
Parisa Parsa
I think that's exactly.
- [40:06]
Glenda Testone
Thank you.
- [40:07]
Parisa Parsa
Yeah. So I absolutely.
- [40:09]
Glenda Testone
I think those boundaries are really important. What about power differentials? I feel like as a, you know, when I was the executive director of an organization and I would have staff coming to me, the expectation was, will you have to listen to me because you have more power than me? And that is true. I did. And I know I'm pushing you, Parisa, and I'm doing it because I know our leaders are there and they are navigating this as well. And even taking a moment for ourselves to think about this and think about how we would want to handle it and what that looks like for ourselves and for our communities, I think is just really helpful. I'm not looking for the answer. I know there's no magic solution. Just do X, everything will be great. But when there, when there, when there is that power differential, how. How do you hold that? How should people be thinking about that?
- [41:11]
Parisa Parsa
Well, I think that it's really important to have clarity about. You know, often people are asking to be listened to when actually they have been listened to. You just haven't done what they wanted you to do. And that's. Those are two different things. So this is where being able to communicate that you've heard X, Y or Z concern, and this is the decision based on these values for the organization or priorities that you have for your own time or whatever it is, is really important. And because, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, right? You're responsible. You know, you might have the sort of positional power over a staff member, but you also have the responsibility for the whole organization, which that individual may or may not be seeing at any given time. And so helping them, you know, communicating to them that they are one of many concerns of yours that you've heard them and. And they might not be satisfied with the answer. And really, I think that's one of the things that takes some of that internal work is, you know, being right with yourself in the position you've had to take in your role, understanding that you have not just you have power over you have power with that you know there are others who have power over you and that you're navigating all of that at any given time, which isn't going to be visible to everyone you're interacting with. So they're going to think what they're going to think. But that's sort of that, you know, I go back to that sort of what. What they think of me is not my business at this point.
- [42:53]
Glenda Testone
Yeah, yes, that's true.
- [42:57]
Parisa Parsa
But really, you feel more vulnerable when you haven't gotten that sense of being or. I've always felt more vulnerable when I haven't taken that time to check in internally and feel like there is integrity to the position, even if it's. That's not agreed with by others, to be able to say yes, based on the information that I have and the multiple commitments that I have to hold. This is where I'm going to go with this. And I'm sorry that that's not satisfying to you.
- [43:24]
Glenda Testone
Yeah, I really appreciate your balancing of sort of the responsibility and the accountability. Like, people are holding different things and we don't always know what everybody else is holding. And when you, you are the staff lead or the board lead or the combo of the two for a nonprofit and you are holding the entire context of everything going on, that is a different position than a staff person or a community member doesn't make their positions not valid. It's just a different calculation when you are thinking about it. And I used to say when I was a leader, I have to be able to go to bed. And when I am laying in bed alone and no one else is there and I'm thinking through the decisions I made that day and the conversations I had, do I feel okay with this? Do I feel like I did the very best I could, given the information and the context and everything going on? And, you know, as long as that was true, I could keep going and keep absolutely doing it. I feel like you've given us a lot to think about. I really love some of the things I would summarize. But I want to give you an opportunity if you want to say anything else to the listeners. Going to first, going first to the people who are the most impacted is one of the things I'll take away from this conversation, conflict is a sign that people care very deeply. That's actually a positive thing. And approaching conflict with curiosity, with not self blame, but with this is an opportunity to learn something. Sometimes naming something can be enough. Listen for understanding. Try to stay in relationship. Don't lose your core functions and take care of yourself. Not in the spa kind of way. I mean, you can if you want to go to a spa, but in sort of the emotional well being of yourself.
- [45:39]
Parisa Parsa
Not the escaping, but the attending to what's going on inside.
- [45:43]
Glenda Testone
Correct. Yeah. Did I miss anything important for our nonprofit folks to hear out there?
- [45:51]
Parisa Parsa
There's probably a raft of other important things, but that's what I've got today. I also just want to say that because there's so much that there's so many places where it feels like we're really hitting the limits of our past understanding or our past structures working, it's no wonder. So I just want to normalize the fact that it's exciting to be in this moment where, you know, there could be some really wonderful generative change. And it's also exhausting to just be in this landscape where everything could be called into question at any given moment. So finding those places that anchor you, that help you feel rooted, whether that's, you know, your personal relationships, your meditation practice, your, you know, reading a book on an island, you know, whatever it is to help as you're sort of navigating all of the stuff that's going on because you all are doing tremendously hard work and it makes a huge difference in the world. Even while you're kind of feel like you're mired in the bs, it's making a difference. So don't lose sight of that.
- [46:58]
Glenda Testone
Yeah, Amen. I completely agree and it's a good note to end on. I just want to thank all of the listeners for all the work you do every day to make the world a better place. It is not easy. It is not easy. It's not an easy time to be a leader. I don't think it was ever easy, but it just doesn't seem to be getting any easier. So we are here. We are with you. Thank you so much for your time, Parisa, and all of your wisdom. It was more than enough for today and beyond. And thank you everyone. Have a good day.
- [47:36]
Parisa Parsa
Thanks for having me. Take care.
- [47:38]
Unknown
The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast.
- [48:10]
Joan Gary
Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other resources@joengarry.com hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.