Ep 217: Why We Must Reframe The Narrative Around Gen Z

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 217: Why We Must Reframe The Narrative Around Gen Z

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host: Joan Garry
• Episode: Ep 217: Why We Must Reframe The Narrative Around Gen Z
• Release Date: December 7, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 217 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Garry delves into the often-overlooked topic of Generation Z's impact on the nonprofit sector. Titled "Why We Must Reframe The Narrative Around Gen Z," the episode challenges prevailing stereotypes and advocates for a more inclusive approach to integrating Gen Z individuals into nonprofit workplaces.

Reframing the Narrative on Gen Z

Joan Garry opens the conversation by highlighting a critical issue: the lack of productive and thoughtful discussions about Gen Z's role and impact in the workplace. She observes that conversations are frequently skewed by ageist biases, portraying Gen Z employees as entitled and disruptive.

"We are just not having productive and thoughtful conversations about the impact of Gen Z folks in the workplace. And that's not a good thing." ([00:00])

Garry emphasizes the irony that many nonprofit leaders, who are themselves disruptors aiming to create inclusive cultures, fail to address age diversity effectively.

Ageism in Nonprofits and DEI

The discussion shifts to the broader topic of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) within nonprofits. Garry points out that while nonprofits diligently work on racial, gender, and other forms of diversity, age often remains neglected.

"Are you kidding me right now? How is it that we are missing age as a core component of diversity..." ([00:00])

Joan introduces her guests, Lamisa Mustafa and Bianca Casanova Anderson, both of whom bring valuable insights into how age intersects with other diversity dimensions in nonprofit settings.

Lamisa Mustafa, a Gen Z education justice advocate with a strong background in community organizing and strategic consulting, shares her perspective on how Gen Z can transform nonprofit workplaces by challenging the status quo.

Bianca Casanova Anderson, an experienced educator and social justice practitioner, discusses the importance of mentorship and building relationships across generations to bridge gaps and foster mutual understanding.

Motivation and Retention of Gen Z Employees

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on understanding what motivates Gen Z employees and how nonprofits can improve retention. Garry references a 2024 study revealing that 77% of Gen Z employees are actively seeking new job opportunities, highlighting issues such as pay equity and the rise of side hustles.

"77% of Gen Z employees are looking for work all the time." ([16:50])

Lamisa Mustafa explains that Gen Z's continuous job searching stems from a desire for workplaces that value their well-being and offer flexibility, especially in the context of the pandemic-induced hybrid work environments.

"We shouldn't have to tolerate, like, you know, different experiences where we're, like, not valued..." ([17:09])

Bianca Casanova Anderson adds that Gen Z employees seek meaningful impact over traditional notions of labor, emphasizing that their motivation is tied to the organization's ability to demonstrate its values through actions and policies.

"What motivates them is impact. Right. How do I see the impact that I'm having is my voice heard and recognized?" ([27:47])

Building Inclusive Cultures and Leadership Development

Joan Garry underscores the systemic issue within nonprofits where leadership development is often overlooked or underfunded, leading to high turnover rates and a lack of internal growth opportunities.

"Leadership development and investing in the people on our teams is sadly, it's seen as general operating expense that is hard to fund." ([20:27])

Bianca Casanova Anderson stresses the importance of mentorship, noting that Gen Z employees crave guidance and support to navigate their careers effectively.

"If you're someone who is really achiever oriented or growth oriented, you're going to keep looking because you can feel when you're about to hit that ceiling." ([19:03])

Strategies for Creating Belonging and Inclusion Across Ages

The conversation delves into actionable strategies for fostering an inclusive environment that respects and leverages generational diversity. Joan shares her experience with implementing a leadership accountability matrix within her organization, ensuring transparency and mutual accountability among all members.

"Accountability is not a negative or pejorative word. It is about how do you actually know you're on the right track?" ([33:47])

Lamisa Mustafa emphasizes the necessity of psychological safety, where employees feel comfortable expressing themselves without fear of repercussions, especially in mixed-hierarchy working groups.

"If an employee and also their supervisor are in that working group, that might impact how that employee can show up or not show up in that working group." ([41:59])

Bianca Casanova Anderson highlights the importance of love in the workplace—not in a superficial sense, but as a foundation for genuine, accountable relationships that value every individual's contributions.

"Love for one another... knowing that we are all valuable." ([35:17])

Conclusion

Joan Garry wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of viewing age diversity as an asset within nonprofit organizations. She calls on listeners to reassess their DEI efforts to include age, invest time in understanding their employees' diverse backgrounds, and build structures that support continuous improvement and mutual respect.

"Think about the time it takes to understand people, where they come from, their lived experience..." ([46:36])

The episode concludes with heartfelt appreciation for the guests' contributions and a reminder to nonprofit leaders to foster inclusive environments that embrace generational diversity for the betterment of their organizations and the communities they serve.

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Key Takeaways:

• Reframe Gen Z Narrative: Move away from ageist stereotypes and recognize Gen Z as valuable contributors seeking meaningful, flexible, and inclusive workplaces.
• Incorporate Age into DEI: Ensure age diversity is a core component of DEI initiatives alongside other diversity dimensions.
• Enhance Leadership Development: Invest in mentorship and internal growth opportunities to retain Gen Z talent and prevent high turnover.
• Foster Psychological Safety: Create environments where employees feel safe to express themselves and provide honest feedback.
• Value Relationships and Accountability: Build genuine, accountable relationships that prioritize mutual respect and continuous improvement.

Notable Quotes:

• "We are just not having productive and thoughtful conversations about the impact of Gen Z folks in the workplace." — Joan Garry ([00:00])
• "What motivates them is impact. Right. How do I see the impact that I'm having is my voice heard and recognized?" — Bianca Casanova Anderson ([27:47])
• "Love for one another... knowing that we are all valuable." — Bianca Casanova Anderson ([35:17])

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For more insights and resources on nonprofit leadership, visit joengarry.com.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

Here's a lesson I've been learning these past few years. We are just not having productive and thoughtful conversations about the impact of Gen Z folks in the workplace. And that's not a good thing. It's not a good thing at all. So you all know I coach CEOs of larger nonprofits, and often these folks at the top fall into the Gen X or the Baby Boomer demo. Thus, what I hear about Gen Z folks is really skewed, unflattering, ageist biased. I've had more than a few executive directors tell me they are at wit's end and that the level of entitlement demonstrated by Gen Z employees is so off the charts that it's impacting their job satisfaction. Questioning decisions, pushing leadership to weigh in on topics that feel off mission. Being disruptive in this pejorative sense of the word, ironic if you ask me. Because folks get into nonprofit work because they are fundamentally disruptors. These same complaining leaders are the same people who hire DEI consultants and work to try to create a culture of belonging and inclusion in their workplace. Are you kidding me right now? How is it that we are missing age as a core component of diversity and frankly, engaging in bias and microaggressions in all age directions that would never be tolerated when considering race, gender, sexual orientation, identity or ability? That's what I want to talk about today. I'm excited to bring a woman who's focused on diversity, equity and inclusion, who has been vocal about the centrality of age in diversity conversations. My other guest has played a lot of positions in the social sector field. She falls into the Gen Z demographic and is passionate about living out the don't talk about us without us motto of social justice movements. So today, let's change the question, reframe the issue, and move us all toward building a culture of belonging inclusion for all, regardless of age. Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits to thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know that nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception. So our first guest today is Lamisa Mustafa. The daughter of Bangladeshi Muslim immigrants, Lamisa Mustafa is an education justice advocate specializing in community organizing, social science research and strategic consulting. As Learning and Evaluation Associate at the Stanford center on Early Childhood, Lamisa co designs and conducts mixed methods studies rooted in anti racist, community engaged and equitable practices to help early care and education initiatives gain a deeper understanding of the impact of the work on the communities they serve. Lamisa collaborates with partners across the social sector to drive program and system level improvements for historically and contemporarily marginalized groups. Throughout her career, Lamisa has been grabbing onto this Nothing About Us without us to ensure that all children and families, providers and educators in the United States can thrive, not just survive, Lamisa holds Let's go through this, shall we? A Master's of Public Policy, a certification in Transdisciplinary Early Learning, Science and Child Policy from UC Berkeley, and a BA and a BS from Southern Methodist University. That's a long cv. Welcome Lamisa.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Thanks so much Joan. Really glad to be here with you and Bianca and thanks for that kind introduction.

[Joan Gary]

You're very welcome. It has the added benefit of being true. The other partner in our conversation is Bianca Casanova Anderson, educator, nonprofit leader, and social justice practitioner with expertise in interpersonal communications, racial equity, facilitation and human development. As an educator for Almost a decade, Ms. Anderson found her passion for human centered change in the classroom. She built a unique background by cultivating inclusive learning environments that center relationships, uplift marginalized voices, and disrupt racism. As the founding Director for the Dallas Fort Worth center for the center for Racial Justice Education, she trained and devised over 3,000 community leaders and educators around the nation in effective racial equity policies, practices and procedures. In 2021, Bianca was promoted to CO CEO where she supports nonprofit organizations and foundations with accelerating racial equity from self to systems. Bianca, thanks so much for taking time out to engage in this conversation with us.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Great to be here. I'm really excited for the conversation.

[Joan Gary]

Joan, let me set a stage for you and have each of you to react to it. Now, of course, in the open I think already I set a stage and saw some nodding heads. The landscape in the nonprofit sector is changing. For us to consider this narrowly, that there are more Gen Z folks entering the workforce feels off the mark because the studies show that the age of nonprofit employees is actually shifting at both ends. The Washington Post reported that Americans are working into their 60s and 70s because of longer lifespans, financial incentives to retire, retire later, and the need to make ends meet. So we got more folks in the older age bracket, with age and power that have been historically intersected. We've got older people at the top and in power. And then we look at Gen Z, the growing section of the workforce. By 2030, it's estimated that 30% of the workforce will be Gen Z employees. So think about that for a moment. And the prevailing wisdom about Gen Z employees, the values of an organization matter. The ability to drive meaning and purpose from their professional lives matter. They come not just hoping there's diversity, equity and inclusion and racial equity conversations. They come expecting it. Gen Z employees have less trust in institutions and they see power differently. Further, I would just say they are the first generation of digital natives and they are the most diverse demographic group we have. So let's take that set up Lamisa and start with you. What does that mean? Right. As we work to build something better and stronger because of all of that, rather than in spite of it. Thoughts?

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Yeah, I definitely resonate with the background you just shared. I think there's a sense among or a belief among me and my peers that the way things have always been doesn't have to be the way that things continue to be. And the status quo, I think oftentimes is, has been built to privilege certain folks and keep certain folks in power. And so I think there's a lot of potential with Gen Z folks like coming into leadership and coming into the sector to do things differently.

[Joan Gary]

Bianca, what would you add?

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think sometimes is maybe missing from the conversation around Gen Z and what they provide is hope. When I think about the things that they are looking for, values, alignment, being able to live and work holistically, believing that organizations will demonstrate their espoused values through their policies and their practices, to me, that says I believe that this place can be different. I have hope for our sector. And so when I think about it, I really get encouraged because they're kind of calling us in to be who we say we are.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. I also think too, Bianca, to your point, I believe that people who are in power like to hold onto it. They don't like to share it very much. Right. And I really feel like this generation is bringing something new. It's bringing a different kind of energy, a different kind of relationship to power. It's bringing a creativity that I think actually long ago when some of those boomers started these organizations in the 1970s. Right. They evolved away from some of that. And that if we can actually create organizations where all these voices learn from one another, like there's just so much potential, don't you think, Lamisa?

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Yeah, definitely. I think there often is a hesitation around hiring Gen Z folks in terms of folks not being a culture fit. But I think there's a lot of potential to see Gen Z folks as culture ads rather than just a culture fit because organizations can see that as opportunities for improvement and just bringing in fresh new perspectives to act in alignment with what they say they're about.

[Joan Gary]

Bianca, you probably know some of these stats too. I mean, we have a workforce shortage in the nonprofit sector, so it's not like, gee, it would be, you know, should we hire some Gen Z folks? It's like we need Gen Z folks in our workplace. Nearly three out of every four nonprofits reported job vacancies. More than half of them have more vacancies now compared to before the pandemic. Right. Like, not only do we need to make this work, but here we have Gen Z folks who are looking for meaning and purpose, who want values aligned organizations. The social impact sector offers that better than anyone else or should. And we need more people. Right. So it feels to me that the stars are aligned. We just actually are creating a lot of tension among our stars. I don't know. What do you think, Bianca?

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah. Going back to your earlier point around power and folks who have power not wanting to relinquish it, I think one of the other nuances is there is that there are more people of color, in particular women of color, empowered today at holding executive leadership positions than there were in the past.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

And you know, that part of it I do think could be explored a little bit more around why being in this seat and being feeling like you're respected in the seat or feeling like, you know, folks are listening to your decision making, not over scrutinizing your work, but is important particularly as it relates to women of color who have worked really, really hard to get to these positions. But I think where the disconnect and the tension begins to happen is we're not listening to each other's lived experience. So if I, you know, if I as a woman of color leader, don't share my story with my team, if I don't stop and listen to the stories of the young folks who are in our organization, we're not ever going to really see eye to eye and understand what one another needs. So I think it's being able to perspect, perspective, take and storytelled, it might help us with that tension.

[Joan Gary]

I'm totally on that. And in this research that I've recently been doing. There's a sociologist, a guy by the name of Carl Mannheim, and he talks about the historical. So how do the. How do different generations actually get created? And that often one of the primary ways that it happens is that by historical events and historical events that occur during the young adulthood of that particular cohort of humans that shape what that demographic, how that demographic operates and lives in the world. This goes to your point because there's a story I have here in my notes, a 2024 study. And I want you to react to this. Lamisa. A 2024 study said that other generational groups saw Gen Zs as, wait for it. Less capable, more opinionated, and more selfish than other generations. Okay, so hold that thought for a second and then think about what I just said about Manheim's theory, about historical events. Think about Gen Z's have never not known life on the Internet. Gen Zs have never not known terrorism, have never not known school shootings, have never. Right. The murder of George Floyd. All of these things shaped who Gen Z people are. And we don't think about that. We think the 2024 study says less capable, more opinionated and more selfish. And I want to know, Lamisa, is that how it feels to you? And you get to speak for all Gen Z people today, by the way. Yeah. So I'm interested in your reaction to all of that.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

I think folks maybe have that perspective of people in Gen Z being opinionated and all the other adjectives you used. And I think what comes up is this like idea of individual blame versus systemic issues. And I honestly think that a lot of what Gen Z folks are wanting in their workplaces and in their work experiences is changing how those places function. And I could see how from, you know, a leadership perspective that that comes off as that person not wanting to work as hard and, you know, maybe not caring enough and being very entitled. But really what we're calling for is that we need workplaces that see us as human beings and that allow us to like thrive and tend to our well being and we shouldn't like have to sacrifice those things for the work we do.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. Bianca, do you want to, do you want to jump in?

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah. You know, I also believe there has been a decrease in mentorship within the workplace. When I'm talking to Gen Zers, particularly in the nonprofit sector, they're saying, I want to learn more, I want to, you know, gain these skills. But I don't really have anyone reaching out to be a mentor. How do you get a mentor and so when I think about some of the complaints, you know, folks may have around their Gen Z employees, one of my questions becomes, well, what type of relationships have you built with them? How are they learning or seeing, experiencing something different? Right. Because if you're new to the workforce, of course you got some demands, of course you have some things you want to be different. And that's what we need. Right? That's the energy we need. But sometimes we do need to harness that energy with some wisdom. And I think that mentorship allows for that generational wisdom to be shared as well.

[Joan Gary]

Do you agree with my premise, the original premise, Bianca, that people think DEI work and they do not think about age?

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's on both sides, right? There's like, when you're doing, like, DEI training as a practitioner, we talk about ageism and we talk about there's like, just a sweet spot in the workforce. It's between, like, 30s and 40s where you're the perfect age, and then after that you're too old, and before that you're too young, you know. And yes, I think it has to do a lot with our productive mentality or our biases around what productivity looks like. But yeah, I definitely think that there is ageism that happens, and it's just compounded by other identifications, other ways that people identify that they could be marginalized for as well.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I came across another statistic that really made my had a head explosion emoji, which is at 77% of Gen Z employees are looking for work all the time. Did. Does that number surprise you, Lamisa?

[Lamisa Mustafa]

It doesn't surprise me. I don't know what, like, the root of this is, but I, I have a sense, like in my parents generation, for example, I think it was a lot more common for folks to stick with the same company for as long as possible and to try to work toward upward mobility and promotions, like, within the same organization. But I also wonder if part of that was just less leeway, less opportunity to, like, demand things to be different and better. And I think that that is part of the, like, always searching for what's next that happens among a lot of my peers is like, we shouldn't have to tolerate, like, you know, different experiences where we're, like, not valued and we're not, our work isn't valued as much as it should be, or our voice isn't included or other things too. Especially with, like, our kind of hybrid work environment now in this, like, time of the pandemic and organizations Maybe not building in the flexibility that folks are looking for for safety reasons or for other reasons. So I think there's just a sense of I, I don't have to, you know, accept that this, whatever the current environment is in my workplace is the only option. Like I can look for something better. So I think that is maybe something that drives that kind of always searching for another opportunity.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. As I have actually been doing a lot more research on the Gen Z demographic, there's also probably buil into that 77% is issues of pay equity and looking for side hustles. Like, I think there's some of that in there too. Bianca, would you agree with that?

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yes. I think that particularly as we think about the influence of technology and social media on this, what I call maybe an age of discontent is that we know that social media causes comparison. Right. Like, so we can share all this information. And I'm comparing, if I'm looking at my social media feed, there is an intrinsic thing that begins to happen where you compare your life or your situation to someone else's or whatever you're seeing. I equate it almost to like online dating. You know, you're on your app, you're like, swipe, swipe. Oh, wait. But I want to keep looking, you know. And so I do wonder how things like technology for all of us have kind of created this discontentment, or continuing to seek and look for more as opposed to understanding what satisfaction may be like for a season of our lives, you know, or taking the time to really get clear on what is the difference I'm looking for in my next career step and why, and then again seeking that support with it, whether it's in your current workplace. And the last thing I'll say on that is I do think the nonprofit sector could do a better job with creating growth pathways for leaders who like emerging leaders. Most of the time our organizations don't have clear growth pathways. So if you're someone who is really achiever oriented or growth oriented, you're going to keep looking because you can feel when you're about to hit that ceiling.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. Leadership development and investing in the people on our teams is sadly, it's seen as general operating expense that is hard to fund. And it is a systemic issue in our sector that people are not given the tools and skills they need in order to be the best they can be in their jobs and grow and develop. Right. And you see leadership transitions all the time where someone says, well, is there any viable internal candidate? Like, no, no, no, definitely not. Why not? Why are, why, why, why does it have to be like that? All right, now I'm mad.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Wanted to come back to something you mentioned around like side hustle culture and that being something that is really common now among Gen Z folks, I think it's really important to acknowledge how just like economic well being and the struggles to just like make ends meet and pay for basic necessities is a part of this.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

I think a lot of my peers and I, we maybe don't even have home ownership as like an aspiration in our lives because it feels so unattainable. Whereas that, you know, I feel like owning a home, white picket fence, like that is still like such a big part of like American culture and what folks dream toward. And that's really sad actually, you know, if you think about it. And so I think just needing to have more than one job is also a part of living and surviving.

[Joan Gary]

Yes. In fact, actually you are spot on. Is that there is a certain degree of pessimism that runs through Gen Z folks because inflation, they don't see home ownership as something to aspire. They see that as more fantastical than aspirational. So I think it's legit. And therefore the hunger for pay equity and the agency of the voices sort of create a bit of a perfect storm. The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast. We are having a conversation about. So you think we were talking about navigating Gen Zs in the workplace, but that's actually not what we're talking about at all. We're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. We're talking about creating a real sense of belonging in your workplace for everyone who works there. And that includes people of different ages. And we are talking with Bianca Anderson and we are also talking with Lamisa Mustafa. Their very impressive bios are in the show notes. Lamisa is a member of the Gen Z demographic and Bianca has been in the world of education. She's been a nonprofit leader and a social justice practitioner and has trained and advised thousands of community leaders around the nation on effective racial equity policies, practices and procedures. Okay, so we've outlined the issues. Let's talk about motivation. Right. So I believe that tapping into what really motivates someone is essential to their job satisfaction, essential to their retention. And someone like Daniel Pink will tell you the motivating drivers are usually autonomy, mastery, purpose. Right, but there's lots of schools of thought about that. But I want to ask Lamisa and then Bianca, where do you think the motivators are for folks in the Gen Z demographic? And I'll start with Lamisa and then we'll go to Bianca.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Yeah, I think in your intro you were doing a reframe away from navigating around Gen Z in the workforce. And I wanted to go back to that because I think it's really important to reframe that. It kind of positions Gen Z folks as something to deal with. And I think it puts the onus on us to have to change and to have to do something to make our experiences better versus putting the onus on the organization to create a culture where we can thrive and belong. And I think motivation is tied to this as well because I think if there's a culture where sharing feedback means that that feedback will actually be heard and even if what we suggest can't be implemented, there will still be a closed feedback loop. Like, that feels kind of like a low bar. But a lot of organizations don't have mechanisms for closing feedback loops, which can make people feel deflated and like. And I think that can also impact motivation. So I want to make sure we're also thinking about what organizations can do and not necessarily like, things that are personal or intrinsic to Gen Z employees themselves.

[Joan Gary]

If I can just play that back, is what should organizations be doing? Regardless of whether we're talking about Gen Z or we're talking about people with different abilities, all of these things are universal. The feedback thing is really interesting. And then I'm going to go to Bianca because another thing that I really, I found really interesting in my research is that, and again, we are making sort of generalizations by an entire demographic. I get that. But for the purpose of this conversation, I think it's a value. Feedback is. This is big. It's big for everyone. Gen Zs really want it and they want it fast. And by the way, why shouldn't they? And why shouldn't an organization be organized in such a way? But yes, the feedback on how I'm doing and not like waiting for a week and a half for a meeting. As I have learned more about your demographic, Lamisa, which has been such a gift to me to actually be digging into this, that's something that's really, really, that is A motivator. Right. So, Bianca, jump in here. What do you think? Yeah, Motivators.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah. This piece around motivation. I'll tell a quick little story. About two years ago, I was. We were doing some hiring, and one of our final candidates was a Gen Z. And there's this question I always like to ask, you know, tell me about your dream job. So I asked this question, and they say, I don't dream of labor.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, my gosh.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

And you know what? They were hired because this is what we talk about. Motivation. Right. So for me, as someone who has been, you know, taught that my work is in my productivity and my dreams need to be constricted into, like, what will I do and provide for others. I've also often, like, not been able to imagine my life without labor. Right. And so someone say that to me really taught me a little bit more about what motivates them. And what I found that motivates them is impact. Right. How do I see the impact that I'm having is my voice heard and recognized? And when we think about just the workplace in general, that's what all people need. So as we go back to, like, culture, particular in nonprofits, to have an inclusive space, to have a space of belonging, we have to think about the needs that other people may have and try to create structures that can support those needs. Our leaning on niceties and lack of feedback culture harms us all. So if we hear from our younger employees, I need feedback, and I need it in a timely way. How could we consider that could be useful for us all? Right. So they're showing us things about our culture and about, you know, the way nonprofits are moving that might need to be shifted, that could actually benefit the full workforce.

[Joan Gary]

That definitely could benefit the whole workforce. Right. But it. But it requires different demographic groups to build and exercise different muscles.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

So whenever we're thinking about feedback, it's not just feedback for employees, but also feedback from employees for leadership and for organizational change as well. I think folks in leadership maybe hesitate toward receiving that kind of feedback about how the organization can do better. But it's really important to build in that culture of continuous improvement and learning and growing, especially if that's what we expect of our employees.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Can I just speak to that a little bit?

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

I appreciate you naming that lamisa, because it needs to be reciprocal. I think one of the fears that nonprofit leaders, executive leaders, have is if we haven't taken the time to perspective, take if you don't know what my full workload entails, if you don't understand the things that were here before you. Right. And that we're trying to already adjust about the culture. It feels really scary sometimes to want to get that feedback, particularly if you are a person of color or someone from a marginalized community who has just gotten into that seat. Because so many of us for so long were taught if you make one mistake, you're out, you gotta be twice as good. And so to seek out feedback from folks who we don't feel like understand our experience or we haven't done the perspective taking it really makes it more challenging. So I think the root of it is being in right relationship with one another and building the trust so that we can have the feedback exchanges.

[Joan Gary]

So I have a team of about 15 folks between my coaching practice and my membership site for leaders, board and staff leaders of small to mid sized nonprofits. And we have been on a journey to become a much more culturally intelligent organization. And because when I have 6,000 members of a membership site filled with leaders, right. I want that to be a place of belonging for all leaders. I want people who are of different backgrounds, who are younger people in leadership, bipoc folks of leadership, to say, I would like to go to Jones Nonprofit Leadership Laboratory because I know I'm going to be welcome there. And so we have done a lot of work in this regard, but we started with our own selves, right? I was like, can we please do a survey of the members? And you know, and the folks that we brought in were like, no, actually we're going to start with you. We're going to start with you. And in addition to building a DEI business case, I mean, I am a for profit business, we created a leadership accountability matrix so that there is something that is clear as a bell about who is accountable to whom and for what, right? And that includes, you know, me as the founder of the company, right? And so you come in, whether you are a Gen X or a millennial or a Gen Z person, you come in. That's one of the first things you see, is you see how we, how this organization, and again, it's only 15 people, how we expect you to hold us accountable and vice versa. So it is. Accountability is not a negative or pejorative word. It is about how do you actually know you're on the right track? Because you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right, Bianca. Many of us who have been part of marginalized communities of one sort or another, one false move and you're cooked. And being able to. And if you cannot Create a culture that promotes failing. You cannot innovate.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

So in the. I want to just spend the last part of our, our conversation here. What needs to be different? Right. How do you build this? I'm not going to lie. I have. I run a for profit company. Right. And I brought in, and I brought in folks who have been so valuable to us. Right. Not everybody can afford that. There's a. Right. How do we make this different? You know, and, and, and can we shift the power dynamics? Like, is that what you. You know, I think to myself, let me say, you must want the power dynamics to be different in some way. Like, why does it have to be hierarchical? Right. Like I'm climbing inside your head. Maybe you should speak for yourself. I think that would be a good idea.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Yeah. I'm also thinking about Bianca. Uplifting lived experiences and us rethinking what we mean by someone being experienced. What do we see as qualifications for a leadership role? I wonder about how different things could be if we, people who are members of directly impacted communities were in leadership roles. And I think that's, that should be like a goal of the nonprofit sector is, you know, in an ideal world, some of our organizations shouldn't need to exist.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Because this kind of advocacy that we provide, hopefully we get to a point where that advocacy wouldn't be needed because folks would already have everything they need to thrive, and our systems and structures would be built to support that. And I wonder about how, like, as a sector, we can move more toward deferring power and resources to the communities our work is about.

[Joan Gary]

Bianca, I see you taking notes.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah. You know, so when you first asked the question, the first thing that dropped in my spirit was love. We need just a little bit more love. And I don't mean it in just the soft, cushy, you know, I mean it in the accountable way. Right. I mean it in the way in which we really live out our values and we are willing to have some generative struggle with one another because we believe what's on the other side is better than where we are. Right. So we will demonstrate love for one another. And when I think about love, I think about knowing that we are all valuable. And so I value what you have to say. You are worth me listening to. You're worth me being supported. So really, not only having these transactional relationships within the workplace, but seeing each other as full human beings that have something to contribute and really working to make our decisions from a place that reflects that. And I will also say hierarchy in and of itself is not just inherently harmful. All right. Because I say that as someone who does social justice, racial justice work and my organization has hierarchy. And what I do think to your point, Lamisa, around the folks who are closest to the work, making the decisions, every decision does not have to be made by senior leadership. Right. And so how do we just like we talk about accountability, how do we stop and say, well, let's pan out our decision making, what decisions are we making? Because most decisions have multi layers and how do we get voice into different components of this one decision and let folks say you get to decide this part or you get decide that part. Because there is something to be said about the person who is doing the work being able to decide what the work looks like in connection to the strategic direction and the vision for the organization. I think if we learned how to make decisions more collaboratively, that would also help.

[Joan Gary]

I wonder what you each think about organizations that are large enough to have, depending on what the topic is, but cross functional, cross level working groups that aren't necessarily led by the person with the power. I will say that as we have done our DEI work, we have a working group and we change it every. We've been changing it every year. And I think probably the first year I led it and then I thought, no, I don't think so. And then the second year we had it, we had people who had no, had never run any kind of a working group at all. And to your point, Bianca, we provided them with a coach because learning how to actually run a meeting and make an impactful working group is a skill. I have it because I've done it a lot, but we can do these things. And so I just wonder what you think about this. But my thinking is you can't just put somebody in the deep end without swimmies because that's just a setup. Right. But can you create opportunities for leadership and invest? So in this case, yes, we got a coach, but it could be someone else on the staff who could provide coaching. There's all kinds of ways to do this. They're of benefit to all parties. I was wondering what you thought about in a hierarchy, the idea of working groups. And maybe I'll start with Bianca on that.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah, I think working groups are a great idea. One of the things that I also want to remind us is that takes time.

[Joan Gary]

It does.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

If we got folks who are, I won't be off on Friday, only want to work six hours a day, you know, I mean, because to create these things does take time and that often for the work that we do is time that is then not spent on delivering the services, being in alignment with the mission, doing the work that the social impact organization is meant to do. So, you know, I think that parsing out the change and being very results oriented is something that would help our organizations. So we see all the things that we want to do differently. But right now, what is the thing we're going to focus on, what is the intended result, how we know we're getting there and bringing a more disciplined approach to our internal work dynamics, similar to what we do externally. So I think that that is one way that we can address some of the misuse of hierarchy.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, and I want lameesa in on this, but I just wanted to respond to that and say, you've heard it a million times, sometimes you gotta go slow to go fast. Right? And the same is exactly true, Bianca. If you want to actually, really understand the people who work with you, you actually have to invest time in knowing them in 3D. That's not something you just look at their, you know, you look at their resume and that's all I know about them. Or you remember the name of their dog so that you ask them about their weekend. Like, like, it's gotta be deep, right? It's got to be deep. I mean, that's, that's why I was really thinking about all of these. That the contextual lived experience of a Gen Z person is so radically different from the lived experience and historical context of the person who's a millennial or a Gen X. It's just, they're all different, but it all takes time. I'm going to give you the last word here on this idea of how do you create this environment of trust, mutual respect, build leadership among younger employees? I'm sure you have all the answers. Okay, that was a joke, but I bet you have some.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

Yeah, I definitely can't speak for everybody, but I think something that's coming to mind for me is psychological safety and the need for everyone to feel that, especially in a working group that crosses different hierarchies in terms of who's in the room. If an employee and also their supervisor are in that working group, that might impact how that employee can show up or not show up in that working group. It's important to make sure that again, going back to culture, that there's a culture of psychological safety where folks can show up authentically and that can also come up, that can really have benefits for the work that organizations do. Also, I relatedly unrelatedly I'd be remiss not to voice, like, appreciation for Bianca. I think it's important for listeners to know that we're not strangers and that we are, like, friends. And she's been such an important mentor in my own journey. And I wish that senior leaders in the sector were more like Bianca. She is very responsive, which maybe you wouldn't expect from a co CEO, but that's something that I think Gen Z folks would appreciate is just people making time for them. You know, if I'm ever in a senior leadership role, I don't want to ever be inaccessible. Like, I want to have enough time to reply to an email, you know, And Bianca has done that for me. She's always been responsive. And whenever she's been in the Bay Area, which is where I'm based, like, she always makes time to, like, catch up with me and then also invites me to different gatherings and things she's a part of, which is really helpful from a networking perspective as well. And just, like, you know, opening up doors to different connections and not, like, gatekeeping and just being as supportive as possible. So I just wanted to, like, voice gratitude for her since I think she can be a real model for other folks.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Thank you so much, Lamisa. That means a lot. And I know it takes courage to reach out. I know it takes courage to advocate for yourself, ask for what you need. And so I'm glad that we've been able to build that relationship because we got to support one another and we have to support the next generation of leaders.

[Joan Gary]

There's so much that's rich here in this conversation we've just had. For me, in my podcast, I get to kind of decide what I think is in your heads. As nonprofit leaders, I try to crawl into your heads and think, what should they be thinking? What are they thinking about? And sometimes I think, what should they be thinking about? Today it was sort of a what should we be thinking about? And we should be thinking about age as an asset. Right. In the same way that different abilities are an asset. Right. And I just think we are totally missing the boat on this. Totally missing the boat. If you just spent the last 40 minutes listening to Lamisa, you know you're missing the boat. If. Right. If you bucket somebody in the Gen Z category in a certain way, that is pejorative. Shame on you. Shame on you. It is all of the differences that make us stronger. We all know that to be true, and many of us actually work like hell every single day in organizations that speak to that truth. Right. And so think about your DEI work and think about whether you really are factoring in age. Really, that's important. Think about the time it takes to understand people, where they come from, their lived experience, the historical context in which they have lived up to the point they arrive. Think of them in three dimensions. Listen to them. Provide opportunities for people to lead. Identify mentors, whether they're outside the organization or inside the organization. Because you just heard Lamisa talk about Bianca, and I guarantee you Bianca gets as much as she gives from that relationship. Right. And she's nodding emphatically yes.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Right.

[Joan Gary]

So these are the things you need to be thinking about. And yes, they take time. They do. And they are worth every second. They're worth every second from as it relates to the psychological safety of the people who work for you, the respect you grant them, and the kind of impact they will have in terms of how motivated they are to be a part of your work. So with that said, I just want to say, Lamisa, thank you so much for representing the entire Gen Z demographic on my podcast today.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yeah, great job. Great job.

[Lamisa Mustafa]

I hope. Yeah, that's a big responsibility. So I hope my peers would resonate with what I shared and just really grateful to be in conversation with you both.

[Joan Gary]

Thank you. Lamisa and Bianca, your work has covered such a span of things, and I didn't know you were going to get such a big valentine from Lamisa, but it sounds more than rightfully deserved. And your insights today were very, very thought provoking and inspiring as well. So thank you so much for joining us.

[Bianca Casanova Anderson]

Yes, thank you both. It was a great conversation.

[Joan Gary]

Agreed. So for those of you who are listening, you can listen again if you want, because you might actually have to listen to this twice. In the meantime, thank you for your work. Take good care of yourselves and the people you work with, and I hope to see you next time. Take good care. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find them helpful, too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.