Ep. 218: 2024 In Review: A Heartfelt Reflection on Leadership and What Lies Ahead

Summary

Episode Summary: Ep. 218: 2024 In Review: A Heartfelt Reflection on Leadership and What Lies Ahead

Release Date: December 20, 2024

In this heartfelt and introspective episode of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Gary engages in a deep conversation with Glenda Testone, CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. Together, they reflect on the tumultuous year of 2024, exploring personal transformations, leadership challenges, generational shifts within nonprofits, legislative impacts, and the unwavering importance of community and self-care. As they navigate through these multifaceted topics, both Joan and Glenda offer invaluable insights and actionable advice for nonprofit leaders gearing up for the uncertainties and opportunities that 2025 may hold.

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1. Personal Reflections and Life Transitions

Glenda Testone opens the dialogue by sharing her significant professional transition: moving from a 14-year tenure as Executive Director of the LGBT Community Center of New York City to leading the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. This shift not only marks a change in organizational focus but also a move towards a more flexible, home-based work environment.

• Glenda (02:03): “Letting go of running a community center and becoming the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab has been a huge change.”

Joan Gary resonates with this transition, highlighting the similarities and differences between nonprofit and for-profit sectors. They discuss the continuity of leadership principles, such as relationship building and strategic vision, despite the sectoral change.

• Joan (03:39): “I thought of it as close to a nonprofit as a for-profit could get.”

The conversation delves into the personal benefits Glenda has experienced, including increased family time and the ability to work from home, which have enhanced her work-life balance.

• Glenda (06:05): “Having a young child, it's really incredible to be able to do so many things that I couldn't do when I was commuting and working in an office every day.”

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2. Embracing Leadership Changes and Succession Planning

Both Joan and Glenda emphasize the critical nature of succession planning in nonprofit leadership. Joan reflects on her experiences with founder syndrome and the challenges of stepping back to allow for organizational growth without over-reliance on a single leader.

• Joan (07:32): “Succession planning isn't just about, I might leave in a year. It’s about making sure that your board and your staff are as strong as they can be to survive whatever might come.”

Glenda shares her personal realization of being "the glue" in her organization and the importance of empowering boards and staff to function independently of the executive director.

• Glenda (18:00): “You are like the glue that is holding everything together... what happens if the glue goes away.”

They discuss practical strategies for strengthening organizational structures to ensure resilience and continuity, highlighting the necessity of proactive planning rather than reactive measures.

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3. The Generational Shift: Understanding Gen Z in Nonprofits

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the evolving dynamics as Gen Z enters the nonprofit workforce. Joan shares alarming statistics about Gen Z's mental health and job instability, stressing the need for organizations to adapt to their values and expectations.

• Joan (23:38): “Over 50% of Gen Z people have diagnosed mental illness... 77% are always looking for another job.”

Glenda counters by sharing her positive experiences with Gen Z employees, noting their idealism, hopefulness, and sustainability mindset—traits that can invigorate nonprofit missions.

• Glenda (21:26): “My Gen Z employees at the center were really the most idealistic and hopeful and wanted the best for themselves and the world.”

Together, they advocate for embracing diversity in age as part of broader DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) initiatives, emphasizing mutual learning and understanding across generations.

• Joan (23:00): “DEI is about age too. You have to think about how to really get to know and learn the stories of Gen Z as much as they have to learn from you.”

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4. Policy, Advocacy, and Legislative Challenges

One of the episode's focal points is the alarming decline in advocacy and lobbying within the nonprofit sector, as highlighted by recent studies.

• Glenda (24:05): “Only 31% of nonprofits reported engaging in advocacy or lobbying within the last five years, compared to 74% two decades ago.”

The duo attributes this decline to misunderstandings of lobbying laws and fear of political repercussions, urging nonprofits to reclaim their role in policy advocacy.

• Glenda (25:01): “You can have a C3 status and still advocate and educate, but a lot of nonprofits do not understand that.”

They discuss the implications of HR 9495, a contentious bill that poses threats to nonprofit tax status under vague definitions of "terrorist-supporting organizations." Joan and Glenda underscore the urgency for nonprofits to engage in policy discussions and defend their constitutional rights to advocacy.

• Glenda (28:04): “We need to do this ourselves. We need to find our people and build coalitions and not be scared.”

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5. Building Community and Prioritizing Self-Care

As the conversation winds down, both Joan and Glenda highlight the paramount importance of community support and self-care for nonprofit leaders. Recognizing the loneliness inherent in executive roles, they advocate for fostering tight-knit communities where leaders can share burdens and celebrate successes together.

• Glenda (34:45): “Community is really the antidote to this moment and the antidote to so much.”

Joan echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that the Nonprofit Leadership Lab was founded not just to provide resources but to create a supportive network that sustains leaders through professional and personal challenges.

• Joan (35:26): “Professional development is a form of self-care... realizing I have as much in common with someone who runs a nonprofit in New Zealand as I do with someone here on the East Coast.”

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6. Looking Ahead: Preparing for 2025

In anticipating the challenges and opportunities of 2025, Joan and Glenda offer strategic advice for nonprofit leaders:

• Glenda (31:09): “We need to double down on sustainability, resilience, and self-care because it's not going to get easier.”

• Joan (32:07): “Nonprofit leaders and organizations who embrace innovation thrive.”

They encourage embracing boldness, fostering innovation within boards, and leveraging the strengths of a diverse workforce to navigate potential legislative and societal shifts.

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7. Concluding Thoughts and Holiday Greetings

As the episode concludes, Joan and Glenda extend warm holiday wishes to their listeners, encouraging them to rest, recharge, and invest in their personal and professional growth as they prepare for the coming year.

• Joan (37:20): “Make sure that you are doing something for yourself... put some gas into your tank because you're going to be traveling a good distance in 2025.”

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Notable Quotes:

• Glenda Testone (18:00): “You are like the glue that is holding everything together... what happens if the glue goes away.”

• Joan Gary (23:38): “Over 50% of Gen Z people have diagnosed mental illness... 77% are always looking for another job.”

• Glenda Testone (28:04): “We need to do this ourselves. We need to find our people and build coalitions and not be scared.”

• Joan Gary (35:26): “Professional development is a form of self-care... realizing I have as much in common with someone who runs a nonprofit in New Zealand as I do with someone here on the East Coast.”

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Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as both a reflective retrospective on the past year and a strategic roadmap for the future. Joan and Glenda's candid discussion underscores the ever-evolving landscape of nonprofit leadership, emphasizing resilience, adaptability, and community as cornerstones for success. As 2025 looms on the horizon, nonprofit leaders are encouraged to embrace change, advocate boldly, and cultivate supportive networks to navigate the complexities ahead.

For more resources and to join the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, visit nonprofitleadershiplab.com.

Transcript

[Glenda Testone]

Hi, I'm Glenda Testone, CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab.

[Joan Gary]

And I'm Joan Gary, the founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and the general host of Nonprofits Are Messy.

[Glenda Testone]

And I'm so excited to be here with you today.

[Joan Gary]

Fun.

[Glenda Testone]

We are having a conversation. We are sharing a cup of tea. We are reflecting on the year that was and what a year it was. I think a lot of people do that.

[Joan Gary]

Oi, oi. Why?

[Glenda Testone]

That's one word you could use. Yeah. I think a lot of people at the end of the year kind of look back what was great, what was not great.

[Joan Gary]

And I think they look at it through the lens of like, personally great lessons professionally. And then because you are who you are listening to us. Yes. We want to talk about sort of the higher altitude lessons of the year.

[Glenda Testone]

What's going on in the nonprofit sector.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. And then, and then we have to talk about 2025.

[Glenda Testone]

I'm not ready, but let's do it.

[Joan Gary]

We're going to turn our sights at the end to 2025. And while there is a lot we do not know, I'm pretty sure we're all going to be wearing seats.

[Glenda Testone]

I think that's smart. Smart and safe.

[Joan Gary]

There you go.

[Glenda Testone]

And that's what we want to be.

[Joan Gary]

Let's do this.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay.

[Joan Gary]

Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host, Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive.

Directors and boards of larger nonprofits.

I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger, and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know the nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception.

So let's start with some of the personal stuff. You made like a big ass change this year.

[Glenda Testone]

A big change.

[Joan Gary]

Talk about it.

[Glenda Testone]

I was running a nonprofit in the CEOC for the last 14 years. It was the LGBT Community center of New York City. And it was a big, stressful, wonderful job. But letting go of that and becoming the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab has been a huge change.

[Joan Gary]

But it's also, it's a change from the nonprofit sector to the for profit sector.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, that is true, yes.

[Joan Gary]

Did you forget?

[Glenda Testone]

Well, but the lab is so nonprofit focused.

[Joan Gary]

Right? But you're learning. But It's a very different. I mean, maybe it isn't. Maybe you don't think it's very different. I so many people ask us, ask me.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Like I went from the for profit sector to the nonprofit sector. How is it? How's it different? You know, all of those things. And I just wonder if you have some reflections about how different it is, how different it isn't.

[Glenda Testone]

I think it's interesting how different it isn't. I think that has to do with your approach to leadership. So if it had been switched and I started out in for profit and then went to nonprofit, it might have been different because I think the more like male dominated, authoritative in business, in the private sector in the United States, that that feels a particular type of leadership. And I approach this from a very different type of leadership.

[Joan Gary]

Right. Which frankly, when we found it and how we started to build it, I thought of it as close to a nonprofit as a for profit could get.

[Glenda Testone]

And it feels that way.

[Joan Gary]

So it feels like an easier bridge for you than like me going from Showtime to glaad? Totally.

[Glenda Testone]

I think of you going from Showtime to glaad and I'm like, yeah, that feels like different animals in many ways.

[Joan Gary]

I'm glad that it doesn't feel that different.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I think relationships are still critical. That's still building trust, building relationships, taking a look at the big picture. And maybe I even felt this myself, coming into a for profit company, the finance is going to be completely different. Am I going to be able to grasp this? And the answer is, yeah, I can. They're not that different.

[Joan Gary]

How do you think about fundraising? Like, you're actually a very good fundraiser. You enjoy fundraising, which is, you know, sort of a whole thing. For many of you listening who want to know what Glenda is having and what Joan is having about this whole thing. Revenue is a different thing.

[Glenda Testone]

It is, from my perspective, coming from for profit, it's slightly less linear and straightforward. You have money? Will you give me some? I'm trying to do this amazing thing. But that's actually part of what you're doing with the lab too, is thinking, what are we trying to accomplish here? And it's more, who are the partners that we could bring along? Who needs this thing? The lab, that they don't have it yet and how can we make those connections? So it's more about bigger picture connections.

[Joan Gary]

I guess I would say, I think if you don't believe in the thing you are selling, I don't feel like the lab and this business and this is not what we're here to talk about exclusively, but I don't think of it as a sell. It's a. For me, in the same way that fundraising and giving a gift to an organization is an opportunity for them, when someone invests in our own professional development, we are providing them with an opportunity. Now, are we actually generating a profit? I mean, I'm not gonna lie. We generate a profit, but we also invest in people. So I think that's a big deal. So you've also made a really different kind of shift in terms of you went to work every day and all your people were right there. You ran a community center where the community was actually coming through an actual door.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

And now that's not the case. You work at home, you spend more time with your five year old. Yeah. Like, just. How's that switch been?

[Glenda Testone]

I would say almost a year into it. I feel like I'm really taking to it and liking it. It was harder in the beginning. I'm sort of like, where are the people? I'm just on zoom all day, you know, And I would bother my partner, like, Jayma, let's talk now. It feels more natural and it just gives me more time to breathe and think and connect in a different way. So I've really been liking it. And having a young child, it's. It's really incredible to be able to do so many things that I couldn't do when I was commuting and working. Working in an office every day.

[Joan Gary]

Right. And we see pictures that you get to take a break and go over and see. You know, the thing that Frankie's involved, whatever the.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, the awards ceremony, the dance recital, the whatever she's doing.

[Joan Gary]

There's always something.

[Glenda Testone]

There's always something with a. With a child.

[Joan Gary]

Yes. I. I don't have small children anymore.

[Glenda Testone]

Anymore.

[Joan Gary]

No.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. Well, but you. But you did. And so I'm curious for you that this is a year. I mean, we're in different positions.

[Joan Gary]

We are.

[Glenda Testone]

But this is a year where you are taking something that you built the lab and your consulting practice, and you have brought in an outsider, me, to come and help run this. And the idea is that you would be able to step back a little bit.

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Glenda Testone]

How does that feel? Has that happened?

[Joan Gary]

So I guess one of the things I think about when I think about the year, I totally think about that. I totally think about how often I write about Founders syndrome and not ever wanting to be diagnosed as having Founder syndrome.

[Glenda Testone]

Like, this is the thing I've heard of.

[Joan Gary]

Right. I write about it. I talk about it. I'm like, here I am. Right. And there's no question our long standing relationship makes this both easier and.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And I actually just really enjoy working with you. So that stepping back is a little bit harder because it's like, oh, this is so much fun. Totally. Right, Totally.

[Glenda Testone]

I was like, can I come early and we chat and then do the podcast? Because I actually want to talk to you.

[Joan Gary]

So, you know, for those of you who. Who may not know, Glenda worked for me when I was at GLAAD quite a long time ago, and I think first job after grad school.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And we did some really good work and had many, many very good impactful things we did. And many, many, many times we laughed endlessly. All the things correct. I think the thing. Speaking of diagnosis, I think the thing that has really kind of smacked me upside the head is sort of coming to grips with being 67 years old. And I have. It's actually funny. Several years ago, I was the keynote speaker for the National Organization of Rare Diseases.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, okay.

[Joan Gary]

And it was virtual. I think it was during 20, when everybody who had a rare disease was like, panicking, Right? And I'm sitting at my desk, I'm saying, what am I going to say to the people who run the National Organization of Rare Diseases? And I looked at my desk and I saw my inhaler, and I was like, are you kidding me right now? You have a rare disease? And it turned out that in my late 50s, I was diagnosed with a genetic. It's actually a liver disease. It's called Alpha1 Antitrypsin Deficiency. You can learn about [e-mail] yeah, I don't produce the enzyme that protects your liver and your lungs, or I produce a very low level of it. Okay. And this year has been fortuitous to be able to have you in the house and lean back because certain markers of this disease have progressed. And so next year, there's a different kind of a health regimen and potential medical regimen. For me, I probably will die from something completely different. I will die from hitting myself over the head with a pickleball racket, perhaps from a bad shot. But it also has actually really kind of connected me to my mortality in a different way and has made me feel so incredibly smart about doing succession planning early. If I was doing it now, there would be both an anxiety and an urgency about it. So I just. It was all kind of fortuitous in that. But I do think, like. And I read a Lot of books. And we did a podcast with Oliver Berkman on his book called 4000 Weeks about mortality. I read Peter Attia's book called Outlive, not because I'm panicking, but because I want to be as smart and intentional about how I live my life as possible. Right. And so that has been a. That was a really big personal connection for me. I was thinking a lot about this conversation and how there's a lot of the things we'll talk about through this time that have something to do with pulling your head out of the sand. And for me, I had to pull my head out of the sand about my personal health.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, right.

[Joan Gary]

And so anyway, as we go through this and start talking about some of the other things and I think that theme will continue to kind of poke through.

[Glenda Testone]

I really appreciate you sharing that and I think it will resonate for a lot of people, regardless of age. You know, I'm turning 49 this year and that can't be true. It is true.

[Joan Gary]

I know, but I knew you when you were like six.

[Glenda Testone]

I know. And now I'm.

[Joan Gary]

And I was like 39.

[Glenda Testone]

I know. And now I'M 49. This is what happens. It's how math works.

[Joan Gary]

It's math.

[Glenda Testone]

It's math. But every year I sort of pull my head out of the sand a little bit more about like, I'm getting older, I need to be more active.

[Joan Gary]

I.

[Glenda Testone]

You know, Joan, I'm doing an exercise class now called Iron Ladies and I.

[Joan Gary]

Laugh every time you say women.

[Glenda Testone]

Powerlifting. It is so Fantastic.

[Joan Gary]

By a 70 year old trainer.

[Glenda Testone]

Led by a 71 year old trainer, Polly. She is incredible. Maybe if I try for the next 20 years I could be as fit as her when I'm 70. I don't know. Probably not.

[Joan Gary]

It's something to aspire to.

[Glenda Testone]

It is, it's really.

[Joan Gary]

And when you. And actually when you have kids, it becomes much more of a. Yeah, I.

[Glenda Testone]

Think I picked up Frankie the other day and pulled something in my back. I'm still trying to.

[Joan Gary]

Well, let me tell you that one of the things that they talk about that over the age of 40, most people spend no time on the floor. They don't get up and down off the floor. And so that when they have grandchildren, yes, they are unaccustomed to getting up and down off the floor.

[Glenda Testone]

That is so true.

[Joan Gary]

Let's use down off the down on the floor as a segue to. Oh my God. This year, speaking about getting your head out of the sand and we can talk some about nonprofit leaders, for sure. But for me, and I don't know how you feel about this, and I'm going to wear a little bit of my politics on my sleeve. I don't know that I believed that the American public would elect a convicted felon to be the president of the United States.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

I just, I didn't think that that would actually happen. And now that it has, what else do you think about when you think about these things?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. I do feel like when I reflect back on the year, there's so much hope felt so much hope coming into a new job, a new life situation, working from home, having more time, and then going into, you know, the 2024 election and feeling a lot of hope. There's black woman running. And then we all know what happened. And I think it was a wake up call for me. And I've been thinking about this a lot. There's so many messages that this sends, and one that I find really hard to wrap my head around, though I shouldn't, because this is part of the history of our country is like, this is also a man who is a convicted person who has committed sexual assault.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

Like the message this sends to survivors.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

It's just heartbreaking.

[Joan Gary]

You know, when you think about our, you know, thousands and thousands of lab members and our clients. I, I have a coaching client who runs a domestic violence shelter and the, you know, all sort of the whole landscape has an impact. And you know, we talked earlier in the year on one of our podcasts about election years being sort of this opportunity. Right. Is all these issues are front and center. And so it's an opportunity to use the platform that that presents, to get up on it and shout about your issues, whatever they may be on either side of the aisle.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

It's an opportunity to raise money. I had Tom Kissane from CCS on early this year talking about how, no, it is not true that nonprofits don't raise as much money in election years. Right. And so it was kind of a head spinning year.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

The whiplash and speaking, you know, and then, and then we have backlash to go with our whiplash, Right? Yep. And so talk for a minute about like DEI backlash.

[Glenda Testone]

Every time there is challenge, there's opportunity. And I think if you are a nonprofit leader, you know that it's like in your DNA. If I've learned anything about being and working with so many nonprofit leaders over the years, it's that we do not quit. Persistence, resilience, it's just, it's in our DNA. And so when something happens that may not be the thing we want it to happen, our response is, okay, where's the silver lining? What can I do with this? How. How can I use this to amplify the need for resources for my issue? Or how can I use this to show what we've been talking about? And I think we're going to see a lot of like, one of the things that has me hopeful is I think we're going to see a lot, a lot of incredible creativity and art. In response.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Glenda Testone]

In response is a way like therap.

[Joan Gary]

Therapeutically.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes, yes, therapeutically. And I think nonprofits will find themselves having to be more creative about how they're going to accomplish what they're trying to accomplish. And so I'm looking forward to that. That's my silver lining of the backlash and the whiplash and the.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I would say a couple of other things. And it goes back to what we were talking about, about succession planning and founder syndrome. I am more focused on, I spend more of my time with my one on one clients talking about when do I leave, how do I leave? And that, that's not a. I'm going to go in 20 minutes, let's get going on this. Right. It's actually about. And I feel like I've learned a lot about that here as well, is trying as hard before you arrived to have sort of good organizational hygiene. Right. And then realizing, oh, there's a dust bunny over there. We didn't actually address or. Right. So I feel like making sure not only that you're in a position to be creative, but that you are solid and that your board is solid.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

Right. That succession planning isn't just about, I might leave in a year. Right. You might decide you want to go do something else, but you always have to be thinking about what kind of shape am I leaving that organization in.

[Glenda Testone]

I think so often as a nonprofit leader, especially when you're in the CEO or executive director role, you are like the glue that is holding everything together. And you do yourself and your organization a favor if you consider not in the heat of the moment, not when it's urgent. What happens if the glue goes away.

[Joan Gary]

Right. Because actually your board expects you to, to drive all the things. Right. But you can't drive, you can't drive.

[Glenda Testone]

The translation of yourself.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

And so you have to think about how do you build up the other parts so less glue is needed. It's needed differently. I mean, this very, it's very close to home for me, you know, being at an organization for 14 years and really contemplating, okay, I'm going to take myself away. And I really was such a liaison with the board and the staff and I could not play that role when the organization was looking to replace me. It really made me think about things differently. So I think succession planning is like such a fancy term. You're going to sit down, you're going to write a whole plan, but it's really just thinking about what happens if you win the lottery tomorrow and you run off to an island.

[Joan Gary]

Or just how is always being conscious of how to make sure that your board and your staff are as strong as they can be to survive whatever might come. Whether that's a horrifying front page news story or, you know, some kind of an external thing that happens in our world that rocks your organization and causes a need for a thought about a public statement, any of those things. The stronger your organization is, it's not just the stronger you are as a CEO, but the stronger the entire organization is, the better chance you have. There was something else I wanted to talk about too, and I know you experienced it at the center. I spoke at Stanford in September and they asked me to talk about multi generational workplaces. And I just wanted to put it out there for people who are listening that I did quite a lot of research on what makes someone in the Gen Z generation who they are. And one of the biggest things I hear from my clients is my Gen Z employees are driving me out of my mind. And if anything is going to cause me to leave my job, it may just simply be these folks. And I just would say, and I love your thoughts about your own experience with this, but you make those choices, those statements and those judgments at your own peril. Right? Because these folks actually are dripping with meaning and purpose. That's what they want. Right. And I don't mean to say they. And I think when we think of dei, we don't think about age at all. And that when I think about the things that my clients say about their Gen Z employees, they have microaggressions written all over them. And so that's a big lesson for me this year was DEI is about age too. And you have to think about how to really get to know and learn the stories of and learn from Gen Z as much as they have to learn from you. And I don't know how you experienced that at the center.

[Glenda Testone]

It's still painfully real. But I'll talk about it for the purpose of the podcast I think that's so true. I found that, like, my Gen Z employees at the center were really the most idealistic and hopeful and wanted the best for themselves and the world and the organization in ways that were even beyond what I was thinking.

[Joan Gary]

Which is, which is really, which is great. Igniting, like it probably fuels you.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, wow, you think this should be like this? And then I would have to really catch myself and think about it and think, well, is it. Because when I came into nonprofit, it was like, you care about the cause, you give everything for the cause. There was no. The biggest thing that I have learned from that is there is a sustainability that younger people think about in nonprofit. Now that we were actively, I think, discouraged from thinking about when I came into nonprofit.

[Joan Gary]

Tell me more about that.

[Glenda Testone]

Twenty something years ago, you come to work at a nonprofit because you care really deeply about fill in the blank costs.

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Glenda Testone]

And you don't complain about the long hours, the low pay, the lack of management experience you might be getting in your world. You just don't. You just do what needs to be done for as long as it takes to get it done. And you're, you know, you're not going to make a lot of money. The benefits aren't going to be great, but you just have to do it right. You care. I don't think that younger people coming into nonprofit now are willing to tolerate that. And I think that's a really good thing.

[Joan Gary]

I think it is a good thing. I Learned that over 50% of Gen Z people from the Gen Z generation have diagnosed mental illness. Right. And that 77% of all gen Z employees right now, even though they have their job with you, are always looking for another job because they are not idealistic that somebody's going to take care of them. It is a lovely thing to think about owning a home, but they don't actually have a belief they ever want will. And so they come to the work in a very, very different way. So I think, I think the Gen Z thing is a really, a really interesting.

[Glenda Testone]

Well, and you're, you're really getting into Joan, kind of looking at our sector more broadly. Like, take, let's take a step back and look at the higher altitude and what are we seeing out there this year that makes us hopeful and that makes us scared.

[Joan Gary]

Maybe we should start with the scared because we were just hopeful a few minutes ago. That's right.

[Glenda Testone]

Let's have too much hope.

[Joan Gary]

We actually don't know what's going to happen in 2025.

[Glenda Testone]

We do not.

[Joan Gary]

We do know. I mean, I think it would be worth just even highlighting a couple of things. We do know that in 2024, the independent sector put out a study saying that policy and advocacy work, you know, regardless of what kind of organization you run, has declined.

[Glenda Testone]

I want to read this statistic, actually. Please, it stop me in my tracks. Research conducted by the independent sector found that only 31% of nonprofits reported engaging in advocacy or lobbying within the last five years, compared to 74% two decades ago. I mean, that is such a huge drop, and it's terrifying to me.

[Joan Gary]

Does it speculate what the reasons for that are? At least a couple of them. It does.

[Glenda Testone]

It does. And it makes sense to me. I can put this together. It says things like misunderstanding lobbying laws.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Glenda Testone]

I have talked to so many nonprofit leaders and cross nonprofit leaders who say, oh, we don't do advocate. Oh, we don't lobby. And I say, well, you know, you can. Right. You can have a C3 status and still advocate and educate and all of this, but a lot of nonprofits do not understand that. So they stay really far back from the line. They don't even want to touch it. The other is fear of political repercussions, which, you know, I'm not going to gaslight anybody out there and say that doesn't happen. That can happen sometimes, but it shouldn't.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

It's not legal. Right. It's not the way things are supposed to be. So as long as you don't cross that dedicated line and know what that line is, nonprofits could advocate and lobby and.

[Joan Gary]

And so as you look at that, as you said, at higher altitudes attitude thing.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And as you start to think about 2025, like, that has to change.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, it does. It really does.

[Joan Gary]

We have to own the fact that it has slipped.

[Glenda Testone]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

We have to educate ourselves as leaders about why it's okay that we can.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And then we have to get up off our asses and do the thing.

[Glenda Testone]

You know, one of my favorite phrases coming out of this year and going into the next year is really, we're the ones we've been waiting for. No one is coming to save us.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

We need to do this ourselves. We need to do this collectively. We need to find our people and build coalitions and not be scared because we still have a lot of work to do.

[Joan Gary]

So as long as we're actually scaring people, and then we can talk about being the ones we were waiting for, getting up off our asses and doing all the things. Well, let's Talk about the. Just a snippet on this legislation. It's kind of like a cloud over our heads at the moment, right? Like it didn't make it through, but it probably will make it through. And I think there's a lot of things that you as listeners don't know. There are things that we. Not experts on this, but a coalition of organizations, including the National Council on Nonprofits, put out a statement opposing this piece of legislation. And let's just, maybe just. I feel a whole podcast coming on that we could, where we could bring some, say a lot more on this, perhaps once the new administration is in the House. But what have we learned about this piece of legislation?

[Glenda Testone]

And it's HR right now, it's HR 9495.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Glenda Testone]

It will likely change. Change, you know, if it gets out of the House and goes into the Senate and all of that. But the reason we in the nonprofit sector are paying attention to this. And if you're in the nonprofit sector saying, what the heck are you talking about? This is the wake up call you've been waiting for. Please pay attention to this.

[Joan Gary]

So we're the ones we've been waiting for. This is the thing we've been waiting for. We're giving it all.

[Glenda Testone]

No waiting.

[Joan Gary]

No, actually 20, 25. Gotta go, gotta go, gotta go.

[Glenda Testone]

So everyone should be concerned about this because this is a bill that would allow the Secretary of the treasury to essentially take away nonprofits tax status from nonprofits that are terrorist supporting organizations. Now I know everybody's sitting out there saying, well, that's not me. What else?

[Joan Gary]

Right? I'm, I'm, I do equine therapy.

[Glenda Testone]

You know, that's only the bad, not.

[Joan Gary]

Profit or even I'm, I advocate for the queer community or I, you know, or I work with, you know, developing black women leaders or whatever it might be. How could that. None of that could be considered terrorists.

[Glenda Testone]

Well, this is where the elected officials that we find in power makes a big difference and where we might find things that seem very obvious to us. Like, of course I advocate for trans rights. Of course, of course I'm supportive of humanitarian aid in Palestine. Of course I'm, you know, fill in the blank. Those are the kinds of things that could be targeted, that could be targeted.

[Joan Gary]

As supporting because there already are laws on the books that make it illegal to advocate and support for terrorist issues. So the bill, in terms of the bill itself, it's on top of lots of protections that the country has put into place about, about making sure that we're not actually funding terrorist organizations through a 501c3 status.

[Glenda Testone]

And it uses the kind of language that makes it really hard to have a discussion about it. Right. And that's why we're trying to cut this off at the pass to say, like, clearly we're not advocating. Yeah, there should be organizations that support terrorist organizations. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is you could interpret this in a way where terrorist is anyone you disagree with. That is the danger. That is why we as a sector have got to pay attention to policy and advocacy and get off our asses, as you said, and defend our constitutional right to stand up for what we believe in.

[Joan Gary]

Yes. And so I guess I would just say there's a lot to unpack about this legislation. And as we get into 2025, you can count on us to. To bring you somebody or some buddies who really know the ins and outs of this and can best guide you in how you should approach your work in that context. And I think we should just kind of shift here and think about all of that. We have Gen Zs who are, you know, we are the ones we've been waiting for. We've got to move towards policy and advocacy. What do you think will be important as we kind of close down this conversation for nonprofit leaders to really focus on big headlines for 2025?

[Glenda Testone]

So I think going into 2025, if you're in the nonprofit sector, you are already someone who thinks about sustainability and resilience and even self care. If you take it down to the individual level, we cannot give that up. Going into 2025, I think we need to double down on all of those things because it's not going to get easier. It could very well, in fact get harder. And we have got to be able to keep getting out there and fighting the good fight, whatever that means for whatever nonprofit it is. So that would be one of my things. What would be one of yours?

[Joan Gary]

Actually, I believe we have said the word I think too much during. I believe we know many more things.

[Glenda Testone]

We do.

[Joan Gary]

We know things. I know that nonprofit leaders and organizations who embrace innovation thrive.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

And I believe we have actually created a structure in the nonprofit sector where we have not educated our boards to move beyond being risk managers. And they fear donors, external stakeholders, reputational dings. And we, as on the executive director side, as pleasers, tend not to be as bold as we can and should be with our boards. And so really beginning to get our boards to really think about what it means to be Bold. Doing that through piloting and testing can make a big difference. Educating them. Right. If more board members understood the sinking policy and advocacy, they'd be upset. They'd be like, we should do more of that.

[Glenda Testone]

So many board members, that's why they join a board. They are passionate about the issue. They are advocates for the issue or the population or whatever it may be. So to hear that this is sort of going away in such high numbers from the nonprofit sector is something we should all be concerned about.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. And I want to get back to the head in the sand thing. I know I'm certainly have done it. After the election, I went to the movies. I read there was statistics about the. The percentage of viewership at Fox News on the uprise. The percentage of viewership at MSNBC and other, you know, other quote, unquote, more liberal media outlets has dropped into the floor. We have to pick ourselves up. We have to do our very best to find even handed news or to just be educated and then to educate our staffs and our boards so that our eyes are totally wide open.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

The last thing I wanted to just put out to you is you and I have both been executive directors. We both know and understand that these are hard jobs where everybody expects you to be like a complete jackass of all trades. Right. And they are actually fundamentally quite lonely jobs.

[Glenda Testone]

Very.

[Joan Gary]

And one of the reasons that we identified you to join us was because of your deep and profound commitment to community. And I wonder if you want to talk about that as we close out.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. You went to exactly where my mind was going, which is, I think the way that we're going to get through this is to really fundamentally understand and act as if we are not alone.

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Glenda Testone]

Because we are not alone. Community is really the antidote to this moment and the antidote to so much. You know, when you're despairing, when you're feeling isolated, find your people. They're out there. Nothing is more encouraging or motivating for me as a nonprofit leader than finding those people and saying, oh, I'm not alone. You're dealing with this too. Right.

[Joan Gary]

And what did you do in that situation? Oh, that's smart.

[Glenda Testone]

I should try it. Yeah, absolutely. Nobody has to go it alone. We need to get stronger together. We need to take breaks together. We need to support each other. And that. That is something that I think will carry us through any challenges that we.

[Joan Gary]

We face. When we started the Nonprofit leadership lab in 2017, there was always a sense that we would be able to provide really good resources. Templates, checklists, master classes. But we actually believed in our heart that what was actually going to sustain people through this self, and I consider professional development to be a form of self care.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

[Joan Gary]

Was being a part of a community and realizing I have as much in common with someone who runs a nonprofit, an arts nonprofit in New Zealand, as I do with someone, you know, here in the Bay Area or here on the East Coast. And it has given me a lot of hope to see the interaction in that community, not only how many kindred spirits are, but how good and kind they are to each other. Yes.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes. There's no such thing as stealing a non profit. We are always offering and borrowing and copying and don't recreate that wheel. I've already done it. Here it is. And that's one of the things I love about this community. If someone is sitting out there all alone, feeling like really down, I would say if you're not already a member, consider joining the lab.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. Just go over to nonprofitleadershiplab.com and float around and learn about what we offer. And if you think there's a good fit, learn more. But I do think investing in yourself in 2025 in some way, I mean, we think the lab is a good way, but there may be other ways too. Could be Iron Ladies in Asbury Park, New Jersey. Right.

[Glenda Testone]

We have space.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah. But whatever it is, make sure that you are doing something for yourself.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Joan Gary]

Because I made a joke about the seat belts. You can't just tighten your seatbelt. You also have to strengthen not only your resolve, but everything about you that's going to help you to lead and manage as effectively as you can. Seems to me every year we say, oh, this is going to be a bumpy ride this year. And usually it is.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Do I think this is going to be more bumpy than usual? I kind of do. Probably. I kind of do. And so there's no chance. So as we close out 2024, because I know we are about to move into the sort of the winter holidays, I guess we would just like to extend a thank you. And also please take time during these holidays. Read some trashy novel. True. Glenda really likes true crime podcasts.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. Find a serial killer you're interested in and like, dig deep. There's some fascinating stuff there. Check it out.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, you could also read a good book. Oh, right. I mean, Glenda doesn't do that, but other people might. But, you know, put your feet up, take a nap, find your thing. Because you're going to need to put some gas into your tank because you're going to be traveling a good distance in 2025 and you're going to be on some bumpy roads. Absolutely. So with that said, happy Holidays.

[Glenda Testone]

Happy holidays.

[Joan Gary]

Same to you.

The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more. To learn more and request an invitation to become a member, please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com that's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast.

Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.