Ep 219: Simplifying Success: How Project Management Can Transform Nonprofit Leadership (with Christie Machorek)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 219: Simplifying Success: How Project Management Can Transform Nonprofit Leadership (with Christy McCorrack)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host: Joan Garry
• Guest: Christy McCorrack, Chief Operating Officer at the Nonprofit Leadership Lab
• Release Date: January 4, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 219 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Garry engages in a compelling conversation with Christy McCorrack, the Chief Operating Officer at the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. Christy brings over two decades of experience in project management, organizational transformation, and business process optimization. The episode delves into how effective project management can revolutionize leadership within the nonprofit sector, offering actionable insights for CEOs, board members, fundraisers, and nonprofit marketers.

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Early Experiences with Project Management

Glenda Testone introduces Christy, highlighting her exceptional skills in building high-performing teams and managing large-scale projects. Christy reflects on her early inclination towards organization, recounting her first experience with project management as the co-captain of her high school track team.

Christy McCorrack [04:05]: “I was always the organized one in my family... when I started managing actual projects, I quickly realized there was a big difference between being organized and managing a project.”

She describes how she structured the team’s practices, adapted to unexpected changes, and learned the critical importance of teamwork and planning, which laid the foundation for her project management career.

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Defining a Project and Project Management

Glenda Testone prompts Christy to define what constitutes a project, especially within the nonprofit context. Christy clarifies that a project has a clear goal, start, and end, distinguishing it from ongoing tasks.

Christy McCorrack [08:13]: “At its core, a project is anything that has a clear goal and a start and an end.”

She emphasizes that for nonprofit leaders, many tasks—such as planning fundraisers, designing programs, and organizing volunteer events—are inherently project-based. Effective project management involves guiding these projects from inception to completion in a structured yet flexible manner.

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Project Management Tips

Christy shares three foundational tips for implementing project management without overwhelming complexity:

1. One-Page Project Plan

   Christy McCorrack [11:24]: “Try using a one-page project plan. Any new project, answer these three questions on a single page: What's the goal? Who's responsible for what? When does it need to happen?”

2. Embrace Good-Enough Planning

   Christy McCorrack [11:47]: “You don't need a perfect plan to make progress. Just that basic outline is enough to start from.”

3. Debrief After Every Major Project

   Christy McCorrack [13:28]: “Gather the team for a quick debrief. What worked, what didn't? What can you do differently next time?”

These strategies promote clarity, accountability, and continuous improvement without adding unnecessary layers of complexity.

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The Role of Communication in Project Management

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the critical role of communication in successful project management.

Christy McCorrack [15:16]: “Project management allows you to speak with some specificity and be clear, manage expectations, and ultimately reduce frustration.”

Christy warns against creating plans in isolation, which can lead to misunderstandings and frustration. Instead, she advocates for inclusive planning processes where team members contribute to and own the project plan.

Christy McCorrack [15:39]: “Having project management as something you think about on the side... will absolutely cause more frustration in terms of communication than help.”

This approach fosters a collaborative environment where expectations are clear, and team members feel valued and understood.

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Case Study: A Failed Project and Lessons Learned

Christy recounts an early career experience where she was tasked with tracking headcount in a corporate HR setting. The project failed due to ambiguous scope, lack of resources, and inadequate planning.

Christy McCorrack [19:40]: “We had no clear scope, no dedicated resources, and honestly, no real plan.”

This experience taught her the importance of defining project scope, setting clear goals, and assigning responsibilities from the outset to prevent projects from derailing.

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Understanding and Defining Project Scope

The conversation delves deeper into the concept of project scope—the boundaries that define what is included and excluded in a project.

Christy McCorrack [21:43]: “Scope is what are the goals of the project? What's in and what's out.”

Christy uses the analogy of building a house with a defined number of rooms to illustrate how specific scopes prevent projects from becoming unmanageable and ensure resources are allocated effectively.

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The Einstein Principle: Defining the Problem Before Solving It

Glenda introduces an Albert Einstein quote about spending more time defining problems than solving them, prompting Christy to elaborate on its relevance to project management.

Christy McCorrack [23:17]: “Before jumping into a solution, you need a clear understanding of the problem.”

Christy ties this principle to nonprofit leadership, urging leaders to start projects by understanding the "why" to ensure efforts are aligned with organizational goals and resources are utilized efficiently.

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Addressing Resistance: Convincing the Non-Believers

The discussion shifts to addressing those who resist formal project management, believing it to be time-consuming or unnecessary.

Christy McCorrack [40:12]: “Without a plan, you’d end up with doors that don't fit or windows that don't align.”

Christy encourages skeptical leaders to view project management as a flexible toolkit that can enhance efficiency without being overly rigid. She suggests starting small with clear goals and simple plans to demonstrate its benefits.

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Closing a Project: Celebrations and Debriefs

Christy highlights the importance of properly closing projects by celebrating achievements and conducting debriefs to capture lessons learned.

Christy McCorrack [32:53]: “At the end of every project, celebrate and debrief. Celebrate the win and reflect on what could be improved.”

Glenda shares her personal strategies for maintaining momentum and motivation through continuous learning and adaptation, echoing Christy's emphasis on ongoing improvement.

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Final Advice for Nonprofit Leaders

Christy offers parting wisdom to both advocates and skeptics of project management within the nonprofit sector:

• For Believers:

  Christy McCorrack [37:49]: “Stay flexible. Listen to your team. Never stop learning.”

• For Skeptics:

  Christy McCorrack [40:12]: “A little upfront planning can make a huge difference, helping you get more done with less stress.”

She reiterates that project management doesn't have to be complex and can be tailored to fit the unique needs of each organization, ultimately freeing leaders to focus on what truly matters.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks to Christy for her invaluable insights and encouragement to nonprofit leaders to embrace project management as a means to enhance efficiency, communication, and sustainability within their organizations.

Christy McCorrack [43:11]: “Project management doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. Embrace the good enough planning.”

Joan Garry reinforces the episode's key messages, urging listeners to apply these principles to navigate the often messy but rewarding world of nonprofit leadership.

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Notable Quotes:

• Christy McCorrack [04:05]: “Project management involves not only being organized and running your own to-do list, but also aligning tasks, goals, people, all toward a common goal.”

• Christy McCorrack [08:13]: “At its core, a project is anything that has a clear goal and a start and an end.”

• Christy McCorrack [15:16]: “Project management allows you to speak with some specificity and be clear, manage expectations, and ultimately reduce frustration.”

• Christy McCorrack [23:17]: “Before jumping into a solution, you need a clear understanding of the problem.”

• Christy McCorrack [32:53]: “At the end of every project, celebrate and debrief. Celebrate the win and reflect on what could be improved.”

• Christy McCorrack [43:11]: “Project management doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. Embrace the good enough planning.”

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for nonprofit leaders aspiring to harness the power of project management to drive their missions forward efficiently and sustainably. By blending personal anecdotes with practical strategies, Christy McCorrack provides a relatable and actionable roadmap for transforming nonprofit operations through thoughtful project planning and execution.

Transcript

[Glenda Testone]

Hi, my name is Glenda Testone and I am the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and a Senior Partner at Joan Gary Consulting. I'm a huge podcast fan and guest and sometimes host on this very podcast. For all of my career I have been living Nonprofits are messy and let me tell you, yes, they can be. I've been both a leader in board and staff seats and I come to you dear listeners, having for decades walked, run and even limped in your shoes. I truly get what you're going through and I want to help. That's why I'm so grateful that I get to work with one of the very best project managers I have ever seen. And I get to talk to her today and get her to spill her secrets for how to make it work for all of you. So stay tuned while we dispel some myths about project management and deliver the real facts about small shifts in thought and practice that can make a huge difference in your work and your life.

[Joan Gary]

Greetings and welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy. I'm your host Joan Gary, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab where we help smaller nonprofits thrive. I'm also a strategic advisor for executive directors and boards of larger nonprofits. I'm a frequent keynote speaker, a blogger and an author on all things leadership and management. You can learn [e-mail] I think of myself as a woman with a mission to fuel the leadership of the nonprofit sector. My goal with each episode is to dig deep into an issue I know the nonprofit leaders are grappling with by finding just the right person to offer you advice and insights. Today is no exception.

[Glenda Testone]

One of my secrets to success as a nonprofit executive is having a super strong leader on the operations side of the house. These are the people who always keep the big picture top of mind but also traverse in details that never seem to get missed. These folks are amazing managers, jugglers and problem solvers and in my case they provide an excellent balance to my less than high tech capabilities and my take, my good planning and preparation and they actually make it great. And so I found myself thrilled and relieved when I came to this job and I met Christy McCorrack. She is the Chief Operating Officer at the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. She brings over 20 years of experience in building high performing teams and leading large scale organizational transformations with a strong foundation in technology, thank goodness, and project management and business process optimization. Christy has successfully driven change management and organizational design initiatives across multinational corporations and high growth startups. Her expertise spans managing global projects in hr, IT and sales and marketing With a focus on aligning technology with business goals. Known for her leadership in developing scalable systems and strategies, Christy excels in optimizing process, fostering operational efficiency, and driving teams towards sustainable success. Yay. Kristy. Let's start with this. Were you always a project manager? Were you like a baby project manager just coming out of there organizing stuff? What's your earlier, your earliest project management memory? I guess the main question is, are you born with it or is it Maybelline oh, are you born with it or can you learn it? Fair.

[Christy McCorrack]

Fair. I don't think I was born with it. Right. So I was always the organized one in my family, the one with the schedule for everything and packing list for family vacations. I loved knowing what's coming next, but back then I never thought of myself as a project manager. I knew I like to be prepared, but when I started managing actual projects, I quickly realized there was a big difference between being organized and being and running a project or managing a project. Project management involves not only being organized and running your own to do list, but also aligning tasks, goals, people, all toward a common goal. My natural organizational skills helped, but I had a lot to learn about how to take that sense of organization and use it to lead a team and meet deadlines and make sure nothing fell through the cracks. I guess you could say my earliest project management memory was probably in high school. I was named co captain of the track team. I was on the field team, by the way. I didn't run ever unless someone was chasing me. I understand co captain of the track team. I took it upon myself to organize structure for our practices, pulled the team together, figured out what we needed to work on. We had been doing really well that season and were poised to go to the state championship final.

[Glenda Testone]

Wow.

[Christy McCorrack]

It was super exciting, but we had a lot of work to do, right? So we had to figure out what the sprinters were doing, what the distance runners were doing, field team, et cetera. So I sat down, created a schedule of practices and who was where, who was going to lead each of those teams, what, what tools we needed to bring with us, blocks, hurdles, et cetera. As the tournament came closer, we faced some unexpected changes. A few teammates were having conflicts, they got a cold, missing practices, things like that. So even though we had a solid plan in place, we had to adapt quickly. And that meant we were able to rearrange schedules and make sure everybody knew what their roles were. And it allowed us to pivot rather well. So when the day of the tournament came, we were well prepared. We felt confident. We didn't win state championships that year.

[Glenda Testone]

This is not going to be a made for TV movie.

[Christy McCorrack]

No. But we played our hearts out. We had fun. And really that was the start of it for me. I think that's where I learned the importance of teamwork and planning and how project management in its simplest form could turn a group of kids into a well organized team on the field. And so that's one of my earliest project management.

[Glenda Testone]

That's so cool. And I just to be sure about this example, there was a coach of the team, right? So this is applicable, I think to nonprofit folks because you have an executive director, nonprofit CEO, but you also have someone. And this is what I've always had in my career. Thank God. That has just been so helpful. You can't do everything. You can't do everything. Well, having that person who is the planner times 10, which has always been my chief operating officer, has just been such a lifesaver. So I guess what I'm hearing is that this is a skill that people can learn and integrate into their own lives. You're not necessarily born with it. I want to go really basic for people because I feel like there's a language. The folks who believe in this and the folks who do this, we get into the, this is just what you do. But I want to take a step back and get really basic and break it down. What is a project? Is everything a project for nonprofit leaders, for example, what about the things they do every day or just once a year? How should we be thinking about this? And what really is project management?

[Christy McCorrack]

Great questions. So at its core, a project is anything that has a clear goal and a start and an end. So not everything is a project. There are some tasks or processes that are ongoing. Things like answering your emails or tracking monthly expenses. Those are things that we have to do day to day. And they don't necessarily need to be treated as a project. But when it comes to something like planning a fundraiser or designing a new program, or even organizing a one off volunteer event, those are projects, right? There's a specific goal there. They have specific objectives and timelines and they usually require different people and resources to pull it all together. For nonprofit leaders, a lot of what you do can be thought of in terms of projects. Planning an annual gala, applying for a grant, even onboarding new team members or volunteers. Those are all project based tasks. Even the ones you do annually will benefit from taking a project based approach. Because when you do them each time you have the opportunity to refine them, streamline and improve. And when you are tracking how you're doing them each time, you can compare really easily. When you think of it this way, you're giving each project the attention it needs without getting overwhelmed by everything happening all at once. Once can be much more intentional about where that work is happening. So what is project management? It's pretty simple actually. It's just the process of guiding a project from start to finish in an organized way. Don't think about it as a tool. Don't think about it as super complicated and taking a really long time to set up. It's how are you going to guide yourself from where you are now to achieve the goal you want to achieve? That is project management. It's setting that goal and breaking it into steps so that you can track against those steps and make sure you're getting everything done.

[Glenda Testone]

So this is helpful. So there are two categories. There are projects that have a start and a finish and then there are ongoing activities or things that people do. That's a really helpful distinction actually. And I feel. And you said in your answer projects are something you don't need an external. The last organization I was at happened to be a medium to large size organization. We had a staff of 130. We had a chief operating officer. This is something you could do for yourself in a one person nonprofit shop where you have something coming up that that has a start and a finish. And you could figure out how you actually want to manage that.

[Christy McCorrack]

Absolutely.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay.

[Christy McCorrack]

You could do this on a piece of paper with a pencil. It's just that simple. Right. Three simple tips that could help someone who's trying to get started without over complicating project management.

[Glenda Testone]

Please.

[Christy McCorrack]

And so maybe it's good a good chance to outline those through.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, please.

[Christy McCorrack]

1. Try using a one page project plan. Any new project. Answer these three questions on a single page. What's the goal? Who's responsible for what and when does it need to happen? Y Just writing that down is a great start.

[Glenda Testone]

That's to a project so simple anyone could do that. One page.

[Christy McCorrack]

One page. Right. That that's a really simple way to start the second. Embrace that good enough project planning that we were just talking about. Right. You don't need a perfect plan to make progress. So just that basic outline is enough to start from. You don't need a tool. Right. You can do this on a piece of paper if you're working by yourself. You can do it in a shared Google Doc. If you're working with someone on the team or an Excel file. What's important is what you have on the page, not where it is. It does not need to be a super complicated tool. In fact, I would encourage you to start with the process first, the concept first. Right. What are we trying to define? Why is it important? What are the steps and who's doing it? Wherever you write that down on a whiteboard, on a piece of paper, it does not matter as long as it's shared with the people that are involved. Right. That's going to help you from a communication standpoint. That could be a whole topic in and of itself, and that's project management will aid you in terms of better communication both within your team and with various stakeholders of any project. It allows you to speak with some specificity and be clear and manage expectations and ultimately reduce frustration.

[Glenda Testone]

Let's come back to that. Tell me the third piece of this, because I bet if I asked you, what is one of the biggest downfalls of project management, I bet communication would be on that list. So let's spend a minute on that, for sure.

[Christy McCorrack]

The third thing. So the third thing in terms of tips is to debrief at the end of every major project, gather the team for a quick debrief. Yeah. What worked, what didn't? What can you do differently next time? That habit builds a learning culture. Right. It keeps things improving without adding additional work. You're just learning from what you're doing and it will encourage people to think through that during the next project while it's actually happening. As opposed to something we try to do at the end of the year, when we plan for next year.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. So just. You bring up a really good point. And we. And we said there might be some people who are resistant to this or they don't believe. They're like, I'm doing just fine. I don't do this. Can you talk about how I think communication is that secret sauce or like the oil that kind of greases the wheels. Can you talk about how you've seen communication around project management kind of help or hurt a project?

[Christy McCorrack]

Yeah, I think where project management can help in terms of communication, let's start there. It allows you, from the very start of defining what the project is and why, it allows you to make sure that everybody's on the same page. There's no question about roles and responsibilities. There's no question about when things are due and what the expectations are. So it's much more fluid. Right. It's just much more natural and there's less conflict overall. People know who to ask if there are questions, things like that. So it can help. A much smoother set of communication and much more intentional messaging throughout. It's all about managing expectations.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Christy McCorrack]

Where project management can fall apart in terms of communication.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Christy McCorrack]

Right. Let's be real about it. If you have a project manager or if you yourself are trying to create a project plan in a back room somewhere and you have a great plan. It's beautiful.

[Glenda Testone]

You could, it looks like it's gonna work. You could really frame it. You could hang it on the wall, frame this thing.

[Christy McCorrack]

It is just perfect. And you thought of everything. But you didn't get the team on board. Right. You didn't share the actual plan or the logic that went into the plan and you didn't get input from the people doing the work. Now you have a plan that is just creating frustration. Right. I don't know what this is. I didn't say I could do that. This actually takes one hour, not 15 minutes, whatever it is. So having project management as something that you think about on the side, right, off to the side in an office somewhere separate from the day to day work you're doing is a mistake. Right. It will absolutely cause more frustration in terms of communication than help. But if you bring that out and you let people have input into the plan, then everybody owns the plan. Then everybody feels like they're working together on the plan. It's not Glenda's plan or Christie's plan off in the corner. It's okay, here's our plan. I know what I need to do. And guess what? When we need to adjust it, we work together to figure out how that goes.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely.

[Christy McCorrack]

So that's, I think, some of the key things to think about when we think about communication and project management.

[Glenda Testone]

I really appreciate that point. And I have seen that. I have seen someone create a perfect plan in a vacuum and then bring it out and wonder why no one is following it. And there's an equity point here, actually. It makes me think. I remember early on in my equity journey learning more about how to create a more equitable world. I used to think that leaving things vague or ambiguous allowed for the flexibility to accommodate differences and diversity. And so if we don't have that policy spelled out, then we can treat people. We can really, we can do better, actually. And what I learned through my equity work is that's not what happens. That is not what happens. Unclear expectations, unclear policies. Vague like who's supposed to do this thing? I don't know. It doesn't say. Leads to inequity leads to people not knowing what the rules are. And then the whatever the dominant group is sets those rules unspoken and enforces them. And it does not help folks that are not in the dominant group actually succeeded. So if for the folks out there, and I hope it's everyone who care about this is really something I had a slight resistance to getting really concrete and specific. I was like, isn't this being dominant? And I'm being type A and all of these things that are bad and it really. It's not. It spells out and it forces you to say, there have been moments when I've had to do this in real time in a project and say, this is how we make this decision. And as I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, that's not the most fair, collaborative way to make that decision. A point for the listeners out there who care about this. This actually is a much better way to try and build a more equitable team organization world. Okay, so can you share an example? I want to get really concrete here for the listeners of a time in your life or your work where you have tried to manage a project and it has failed. And if you would so kindly and candidly share what it was and why, I think that might be helpful.

[Christy McCorrack]

Absolutely. It was pretty early in my career. I was working in the corporate sector in the HR department at the time. I remember being assigned a simple project. We were just asked to track headcount, create a headcount report.

[Glenda Testone]

Sounds simple across.

[Christy McCorrack]

So it was. Yeah, it seems simple. Right. Gather some numbers, track the changes, and report back. But here's the catch. We had no clear scope, no dedicated resources, and honestly, no real plan.

[Glenda Testone]

Sounds like a nonprofit.

[Christy McCorrack]

It was just me, right?

[Glenda Testone]

I've been there many times.

[Christy McCorrack]

So many people. Right. It's with the best intentions. It was just me trying to gather some data. Without clear direction, I'd reach out to team leads and department heads, only to find out they weren't tracking the information I needed and they didn't have time to help. Right. They weren't. This wasn't on their radar.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

[Christy McCorrack]

They didn't even know this project existed. So without a clear plan or defined roles, things quickly spiral. I had more questions than answered. I spent so much time chasing data and clarifying what was needed that I couldn't even produce numbers that I felt confident about. I couldn't verify if they were accurate. Eventually I realized the problem wasn't that headcount tracking was that complex. It was that we hadn't Approached it like a real project. There was no goals, There was no timeline, no accountability. The whole thing was a lesson. Even with simple project. A simple project, it needs to have a clear plan and a defined scope, or you will spin your wheels. It will be harder than it needs to be.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, so it seems. Two things. One, you talked about scope as being a really important part of this. What is scope? Simply just so, folks.

[Christy McCorrack]

Yeah. Scope is what are the goals of the project? What's in and what's out.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay.

[Christy McCorrack]

Right. Meaning I am going to build this house with four rooms on one level. You could argue it could be more defined than that, but that's your scope. Got it. That's different than saying, I want to build a structure.

[Glenda Testone]

Got it. Got. Yes. So it's the specificity. Scope forces you to answer questions explicitly with specifics. So I know that was an example from the private sector, and Christie's private sector experience is such a nice complement to all of my public sector experience in the nonprofit sector. But. So perhaps the scale that you're talking about is larger than a number of nonprofits that our dear leaders are wrangling. But I would argue this is imminently translatable, and maybe we could break it down into some basic lessons for all those leaders out there. It reminds me, as I was listening to you talk, Christy, of this Albert Einstein quote that I first heard and I was skeptical of, and then I heard it again, and I was like, huh, maybe there's something to that. And then I heard it again, and I was like, oh, I get it. The quote is, if I had an hour, this is Albert Einstein to solve a problem, I would spend 55 minutes defining the problem and 5 minutes solving it. So I'm curious, what is he getting at? And are there some lessons here for our nonprofit leaders?

[Christy McCorrack]

For sure. So Einstein's point is powerful. Before jumping into a solution, you need a clear understanding of the problem. In my headcount example, we didn't define what headcount tracking actually meant or why it mattered. Without that clarity, I was gathering data, but I wasn't sure if it was even the right data. Right. And I think that's the heart of the lesson here for nonprofit leaders. So there are a few key takeaways. One, start with the why. Ask yourself why this project matters and what you aim to achieve. Right. For a nonprofit, this might mean asking, how will this impact? How will this project impact our program's success? When you know what the why is for what you're trying to do, it becomes easier to Define the steps that you need to take to get there without wasting time on what doesn't matter what's not going to get you closer. The second is to define scope clearly. Right. Spend time talking about what's in scope and what's out of scope. Both are equally important in that. Again, referring back to that headcount project. If we had defined that we only needed monthly data, monthly data, I could have focused my efforts on just that, rather than reaching out and trying to gather all of these numbers, which took a lot more time and resources. Identifying resources early. This is a big one for nonprofit leaders. We know nonprofit leaders are often juggling multiple roles. So knowing who will do what tasks ahead of time is critical. If no one's dedicated to a task, the likelihood is it'll fall through the cracks or someone will end up trying to do it when they have other work already on their plate. Yes. So trying to assign those in advance allows for a more predictable workload. Number four, breaking it down into manageable steps. So once you have a clear goal and a scope, map out each step for those, even for smaller projects. Right. Think of it like a grocery list. You need to buy this and this. Then you assemble the thing and put it in the oven. It's the same concept. So just breaking it down into small steps, you don't need to over complicate things. A basic roadmap helps a lot. So by taking those steps, nonprofit leaders can get more clarity up front and ultimately save time and effort, just as Einstein suggested.

[Glenda Testone]

Kristi, this hits close to home. You're describing so much of the early frustration, I think, between me and my team members when I first came into leadership. And I would want something done, and I would say, can we just do this thing? And they would have so many questions for me. And I remember feeling, I just need this thing. Can we just do this? I don't know the answers yet. Can we get into it? I may have even said something like, can we just get into it and see what surfaces around X, y, or Z? I'm talking about capital projects, which is certainly a project like building renovations. What saved me in those moments was having a team of people around me who said, no, this is not how we're going to do it. We need to answer these questions. We need to define this problem. And you hit the nail on the head. In a nonprofit, so often the assumption is anything additional will be picked up by the people who care so much about this cause, who work or volunteer for the organization. So and so will just do It. I know it's not part of their original plan, but this is important. So they will just. They or we or I will just figure it out and do it. I, even in those early days, fell into, I'll do it. Oh, we don't know who's going to do it. I'll do it. And remember that CEO COO I keep talking about, Jeff Klein saying, no, Glenda, you cannot do it. You're running the organization. You cannot do this thing. You're looking at the wrong problem. Yes. You think this someone just needs to do. We don't have the person to do it. That's what the answer is. So we either need to hire this person, we need to contract with this person, we need to get a volunteer, we need to. It cannot be you. And I think so often in nonprofit, for so many of our superheroes, we think we'll just do it. Resources are always an issue and never an issue in some ways, because we will just take it on and we will just do it. And some of the time that actually might work. So what would you say to those folks, Chrissy, How. What lessons can people like me learn going forward?

[Christy McCorrack]

A few lessons. A few lessons. And I think one is that while extremely generous. Right. And all of that passion and desire to step in and actually just do the thing.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Christy McCorrack]

While that is so evident in nonprofit leaders, it also contributes in a big way to feelings of being overwhelmed and burning out.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Christy McCorrack]

So while the team may step up and do it, or you may step up and do it, in that scenario, doing so without project management, without asking questions like why and is this the right next thing I should be doing? It can contribute to putting all of your resources not on the most important.

[Glenda Testone]

Task at the time.

[Christy McCorrack]

So it doesn't necessarily get you closer to the goal, because if you don't have a plan, you get caught up in that spin. And without knowing where your scope starts and stops, you can let that just continue to creep in. And before you know it, the project that you're working on has become unruly.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Christy McCorrack]

And you've neglected two or three other things that you need to do. Right. So I think it's important to remember within project management, and you don't have to worry about the term. There is a term for this. For those of you project management geeks out there like me, it's called the iron triangle. But it's a fundamental concept in project management, and that's. You have three constraints. You have scope, time, and cost.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, my God, you're bringing Back memory. I feel like Jeff said this exactly to me and said, glenn, these three things and you can't change it. And I in my head was like, well, can't you?

[Christy McCorrack]

True. They're so interconnected. Right. And the idea is if you change any one of those, you're going to have to change at least one of the other two, if not both of the other two. So if you want to increase the scope, right. By delivering something, a different service or a different feature than before, you will need to. Also, you might need to increase time or budget to be able to get there and do the thing. Understanding the relationship between those three things, scope, time, and cost, will help you make decisions quicker. Right. It will really help you decide, is this worth it? And do I want to make this change? Do I have the budget to make this change? Do I have the time to make this. This change? Maybe you're saying the scope change is so important that you're willing to deliver it later, but if time is not something you can move and you don't have more budget, then you cannot increase your scope.

[Glenda Testone]

No, I.

[Christy McCorrack]

So it's a tool to just balance it out.

[Glenda Testone]

I remember distinctly shaking my head at Jeff and saying, no, I don't think that's right.

[Christy McCorrack]

I promise you it is. I promise you it is. I've tried to manipulate that.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, man. Okay.

[Christy McCorrack]

Just a big relationship there. But you can make that work for you. And I think that's the key. Project management is to help empower you to be able to make informed decisions, to look at the plan and decide if you want to change it, versus just getting caught up in doing the next thing without coming up for air.

[Glenda Testone]

So a question here, Kristi. We've talked a lot about sort of the beginning of this cycle. What is a project? How make sure you define the scope. What are the resources that you have? Something that I've seen get missed and something that I actually really enjoy is the end of a project. My spouse, Jayma and I, I always say Jama is great at starting things and I am really good at finishing them in. In the right circumstances, we make a great team. What about the end of a project? Is that important? How. How should that be thought about or managed? I have seen folks like, we've done really big things. I'll just say, for myself and my career, we haven't always marked the end with anywhere near the same time and attention that we put in the beginning. Can you say something about that?

[Christy McCorrack]

Yeah, it's a great point. I think there are two Things that should be done minimally, two things that should be done at the end of every project. One is celebrate. No matter how big or how small, take a minute, enjoy the win. Because we're all really busy and there's lots of things that we're doing. It's so easy to just move to the next project. Okay, we did the thing, let's do the next. Celebrating is a big one. And depending on how large or small that project is, you can, you can have the celebration follow suit. And the other is a bit of a debrief. Right? This should be. If it's a project you did by yourself, you should still do this. If it's a project you did with a team, you absolutely need to do this. But if you sit down, it could be in a meeting. If it's with others, if it's a self driven project, take time and reflect. What did you do? What didn't go well? What could have gone better? What would I do different next time? If you can sit down and do that, you'll continue to improve over time and learn what works for you and what works for your team and be able to hopefully move through the next project even better than you did the current.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I love a celebration, and I actually really love a debrief. And I will say for our leaders out there. Pretty early on in my nonprofit leadership journey, I realized was when I was in the middle of projects, one of the ways that I got through those projects was to analyze what needs to happen to get through this project. And then very quickly I would have an actual list, or at least a list in my head started of like, here's how we could do it better next time. Here are the things that I'm learning, that I'm seeing. And that list in particular, if a project was really tough, kept me motivated. That is the thing that kept me, okay, this is a slog. This is a tough project. Nothing is going the way we thought it was going to. If it's an event or something like this event is just like pulling teeth, but we're going to have to do it again next year. So what I would get into the mindset of, okay, so how, what are the things going through this, being in it that we could do differently next year to make this less of a slog, less hard? That has been a fundamental coping mechanism and strategy in leadership for me that has served me so well. So it's not even a debrief. It's like in the project, keeping an eye on what are we learning what can we apply next time? Have you seen that? Do you use that in the work that you do?

[Christy McCorrack]

I do. So I think about this both for both in terms of project management and process improvement. I think on both sides. As you're going through any project and you're thinking about. I'm constantly thinking about how can I simplify the part that we just. This, let's say you're in the first phase of a project and could be just the first week of a three week project. Right. But first phase of the project and this is just feeling so heavy and I immediately start thinking about what's heavy, does it need to be how could we do it differently next time? And that's the puzzle, right. That's the fun part of how do I optimize this thing? Yeah, I think we should all think about our day that way. Whether we're running projects or not, we're constantly trying to do more with less.

[Glenda Testone]

Correct, correct. And simplify. We don't want things. No one wants things to be harder than they need to be. Life can be hard enough, for sure. We used to do an annual bike ride, an AIDS bike ride from Boston to New York every year at the center. And one of my favorite things to do was keep a list on my phone of like, here are the things that are really awesome that we definitely should do this next year and here are the things that were not so great and we should do them differently. And myself and that COO that I talked about would keep lists and then we would combine or compare at the end. And it always was such a fun little exercise to keep me in the moment. So I want to use this last question to address two groups of people. First is the people. I didn't start out this way, but I certainly am this way now. First is the folks who are already convinced that this is a good idea. It's how they live their lives. They actually enjoy it. They're always looking for new tools to help them. What would you say to them, Christie, to help them elevate whatever level they're doing this at now? What do you say to the believer?

[Christy McCorrack]

I would say stay flexible. Right. Really stay flexible. Listen to your team. It's not about a specific tool, right? There are some tools out there, some of the top three, right. Asana Trello Monday.com those are three project management tools that, depending on how complex your projects are, depending on your team size and budget, all of those are certainly things that you could explore if you want to take project management to the next level. Many of them have free versions or discounted rates for nonprofits. So encourage you to check those out if it's something that you think would be useful. But I would say never stop learning. Never stop trying to simplify the process. Never stop listening to your team to understand what their hiccups might be in terms of any sort of resistance to, like, project management as a methodology. And there's a way, I believe there's a way to keep it really simple that will allow the people that you work with to adopt this without feeling like it's something new. They need to learn.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Christy McCorrack]

They'll feel the value and the benefit from it.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Christy McCorrack]

Don't stop trying to do that.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

[Christy McCorrack]

Sometimes we can get into the methodology, and as we become experts, we assume everyone is.

[Glenda Testone]

And the flexibility. Flexibility is important. I have seen people who adapt to those technologies and they love it. And I have seen people who don't. And you still need to work with those people and get that project done. So it does require some flexibility. So second, can we please talk about the majority of people who. I think. I haven't done a scientific study, but I think the majority of people who don't live their lives this way, they think they're doing just fine and they see no need to. Why do extra planning and project management? In fact, some of these people, I think, are actually convinced that if they did that, if they started doing that, it would take more time, be more complicated, and actually could end up in weaker results. What would you say to those non believers about project management?

[Christy McCorrack]

Sure, I totally get it. Right. A lot of these people feel like they're getting by just fine without formal planning. And for smaller routine tasks, maybe they're right. But here's the thing. When it comes to bigger projects, especially in a nonprofit where time and resources are tight winging, it can actually backfire. Think about project management as a toolkit. It doesn't have to be rigid or time consuming, but it does give you structure. Imagine you're building a house. You wouldn't just start hammering nails and hope for the best. Right. Without a plan, you'd end up with doors that don't fit or windows that don't align. In nonprofits that can look like projects that run over budget, people feeling burned out or important deadlines slipping through the cracks. A little upfront planning can make a huge difference, helping you get more done with less stress. So if you're skeptical, try starting small. Take one upcoming project, Just set a clear goal, write down a few steps, assign out the tasks, and Watch how smoother it goes. I think you'll be surprised by how small, small shifts like that can free up some time and energy and it'll make you want to do it again.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I think that is true. And I certainly know those people. I think I was one of those people at one time. So I hope folks are really taking this to heart. And look, I'm not saying, I don't think Christy is saying there are some tasks in front of you and you can just do it and that's fine and it's totally within your control. But I think when you start to work with other people, which we all will do, that communication and coordination is just so important and can really, even if the project goes great and you get the result you want, if it leaves people feeling frustrated, you're not. That's not a great position to be in going forward. And the sustainability point, I think is really important. You can be a leader. That's just going to do it. I'm just going to stay up later. I'm just going to work harder. I'm just going to make this happen. But that is not, over time, sustainable. And if you are not able to do that, your organization, your mission, will suffer. So please take this to heart. Preach. Okay, Christy, any parting words, tools, advice for the nonprofit leader audience out there as they think about taking some of what you said, maybe all of what you've said, and applying it to their work and their life?

[Christy McCorrack]

Yeah, I think, you know, just to say project management doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. It's not about adding layers of work. It's about freeing yourself up to focus on what really matters. So just embrace the good enough planning. Good enough. You don't need to be. You don't need to be perfect. A basic outline can help you avoid unnecessary detours and still leave room for flexibility. So give it a try.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. I love it. I love it. I so appreciate the time.

[Christy McCorrack]

Good advice.

[Glenda Testone]

Thank you, Christy, for being on the podcast. It was a pleasure to have you. Thank you for the work that you do for the lab and so many nonprofit leaders across the country. And, and thanks to everybody out there who's fighting the good fight and doing the good work. Please keep it up. We're here for you. Until next time.

[Christy McCorrack]

Thanks, Glenda. The Nonprofit Leadership Lab is led by Joan Gary and is the world's best online community for leaders of small nonprofits. Learn how to raise more money, build the board of your dreams, grow a large audience of supporters, and so much more to learn more and request an invitation to become a member. Please go to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.

[Joan Gary]

That's nonprofitleadershiplab dot com podcast. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I hope you found the conversation valuable as you navigate the messy world of nonprofits. Check out all my other [e-mail] hope you find them helpful too. Lastly, thank you for the work you do to repair the world in ways large and small. I'll see you next time.