← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep 222: The Joys and Challenges of Leading A Small Nonprofit (with members of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab)
01:00:46
Three fearless nonprofit leaders share what drives them, how they navigate burnout, and the vision that keeps them going. Tomik Dash, Laura Carmichael, and Adrienne McCue are breaking barriers and sharing their stories that prove that small but mighty ...
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- [00:00]
Joan
As a nonprofit leader, you deserve tools and support that help you to thrive. That's why I feel it is important to introduce you to today's sponsor, DonorPerfect. Their All in one fundraising platform simplifies donor management, communications and reporting so you can focus on what you do best. Changing lives. Plus, their expert team is always on hand to cheer you on. Do you want a partner who truly gets you? Visit donorperfect.com joan to learn more. Since 2017, we have met and supported over 22,000 nonprofit board and staff leaders of small to mid sized nonprofits in our Nonprofit Leadership Lab. Through the lab we provide resources and expert advice365 247 as a member of the Lab team, we often look outside the lab for great experts to support the work of our members when in fact we don't need to look any further than our own backyard. Could never go wrong with a Wizard of Oz metaphor. A member, let's say from Boston, will share a challenge in our community and before one of us can get to the answer, a member from South Africa will offer perfect guidance.
- [01:14]
Gary
What we have learned is that we all have expertise and so today, rather than booking folks labeled experts, we booked the real deal. Lived experience counts as much, if not more than research and formal training. We all know that in the nonprofit sector, three people who are experts because they are in the trenches, on the job, sometimes working without pay, working part time, working their asses off. Their budgets are small, their missions are mighty, they are awesome and we can't wait for you to meet them.
- [01:51]
Joan
So if you're a board or a staff leader of a larger nonprofit, don't go anywhere. Stay right here. Because you know what? The struggles are universal. These leaders may not have as many arrows in their quiver as you do, but they are creative, they're resilient and they really, truly do all the things. We have a lot to learn from these uniquely talented experts. For the past seven years, we have gotten to know and admire so many of these leaders through our Leadership Laboratory. It's time to share their stories with you.
- [02:27]
Gary
Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to Donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in.
- [03:17]
Joan
Today we have three real deal experts. First we have Laura Carmichael. She's a founding board member and the current Executive Director of the Autism alliance of Northeastern New York. With resources from the lab, she's worked with board to double the organization's revenue and expand its programs. Next up is strategic planning. Laura is a part time Ed and we're going to learn what that means. She began as a board member and the org was started in 2011 with a $35,000 budget and today nearly $150,000.
- [03:51]
Gary
Tom McDash is a dynamic force channeling his activism and creativity into building a more equitable and beautiful world. As the president of the Black and Brown Equity Coalition Bobek, he's fearlessly advocating for queer and trans people of color on Fire island, dismantling barriers to access and fostering a sense of belonging in a historically white and cisgender dominant space. Proving that paradise doesn't have to be a members only club, Tomics Org is small but mighty with a budget of just $77,000. He is a founder and is just moving from fiscal sponsorship to securing his own 501C3.
- [04:34]
Joan
Last but certainly not least, Adrienne McHugh, the President and Executive Director of Step up for Mental Health. Adrienne has been passionate about mental health since as a young girl she helped her mom cope with a serious mental health disorder. A proven leader for over 13 years in advocacy work, developing strategy partners, community engagement and planning, Adrienne's driven by educating the public about the important work of peer support and and mentorship serving under resourced communities, families dealing with mental health issues, young mental health and stigmas. After volunteering as a leader of this organization, Adrienne is now the paid full time Executive Director with a budget of $100,000.
- [05:16]
Gary
Thank you all so much for sharing your stories today and giving us the opportunity to shine a light on your work and on what leadership, true leadership looks like in our world today. So our goal today is pretty simple to ask each of you a few questions and then give you a chance to ask us a few. So let's start here. Each of you is either a founder. Adrian and Tomic, you're definitely founders or has what we call founder like attributes. Laura, as the first Ed, I think you qualify. So my question for you all is what drives you to Tomic, you are not paid. Laura, you are part time and Adrian, you had at least four years in your tenure where you were also not paid. So what is for those folks listening at home, what is the why that propelled you into this? Why not just volunteer when you have spare time and get a paid gig or go work at a larger organization? Laura, I would love to start with you and then Adrian and then Tomic.
- [06:24]
Laura
Well, first off, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. This is an awesome opportunity and I feel honored to be here and especially with these other EDs who doing this part time. And sometimes it's, I mean, it's hard work. When you're a small nonprofit, you don't have all the resources. But then to hear you guys doing this for free, that's amazing. So kudos to you. I hope you get paid sometime soon. Me too.
- [06:48]
Gary
Me too.
- [06:50]
Laura
Yeah. But my why really is my 23 year old son with autism. You know, I started this work because of him and really would be maybe better for me to. To work for a bigger organization and, and not have to do all the things and maybe have like a development job or something like that would probably be easier, but I wouldn't have the passion for the mission. And to me like that's, that's the most important thing. So that's why it's just, you know.
- [07:19]
Joan
My kid makes perfect sense.
- [07:21]
Gary
As someone with a kid, I understand how much they can motivate you. So thank you, Laura.
- [07:27]
Adrienne
Adrian, I think what motivated me, I actually did try at first to reach out to another organization that was larger. And because I was, I felt like something was missing and it just didn't work out or that their mission was different. And so I just said, you know what, I'm going to do it myself and we can make sure that we are focused on communities that are not served. And really my mom, I think she died in 2012 and that was a catalyst for me to really start talking about mental health. She suffered from schizophrenia when I was born. And so for me, that was every family who we touch. Our program is about things that I had lived experiences with and I didn't want other families to suffer as I did with trauma. And that's my mission, basically.
- [08:21]
Gary
Thank you, Adrian. And thank goodness for you. A lot of people need your help right now.
- [08:26]
Joan
Hear, hear.
- [08:27]
Gary
Tomic, hi.
- [08:29]
Tomic
And thank you for having me. I got called to this. You know, there has never been any kind of initiative like this on Fire island before Babek got started. It came around and it was seen as something kind of radical. You know, it's taken a while for like people to get on board with what we're Doing, which is so interesting because we're so close to New York City, which is like, you know, this blue bastion. And so once I got started with it, you know, I'm a very ambitious person. I think sometimes my ambition borders on delusion. You know, some people might tell me that, and, you know, I feel like you can. Anyone can make a difference where they are. And, you know, Fire island is a place that I had coming to for about seven consecutive summers before I started the organization. And it's a place that I love, you know, in the summertime. And it's a place that if I'm going to be there, I want to see it change. You know, I think that it should look more like the queer community at large, and it doesn't look like that. So. And then lastly is people are, you know, I meet people in the city who, you know, I haven't had an opportunity to, like, really conversate with on the island when they come to, like, any, like, one of our big events, and they're like, hey, you're that guy who does the thing for black folks and trans folks on Fire Island. I came for the first time, and it was because, you know, you made me feel like I could see a reflection of myself out there. And we had a blast. And I want to bring my friends back and. And that's super rewarding. You know, that's my.
- [10:05]
Joan
Why it's actually very interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. Glenda, in all of these is a drive to make sure that people are seen right, that people are seen in a way that is very, very personal to each of you, which I think is kind of a really interesting theme here. Here we are a few months into a very new and very different year, riddled with a. I'd say a new kind of uncertainty for nonprofits, with an administration that, at least at first glance, seems to have a bit of a bullseye on tax exempt organizations. And I want to know, how are you feeling? Every year is tough for nonprofits. Let's be really clear. You thought it wasn't going to get any worse than 2020. Right. Are new things keeping you up at night? And I would say that Glenda and I both have been sleepless nonprofit executive directors. So the up at night thing is something we're familiar with here. What's keeping you up at night? The challenges. Let's see if we get some common threads among the three of you. Tomik, let's start with you and then go to Adrian and Laura.
- [11:19]
Tomic
Sure. Well, you know, I think our Organization operates at the intersection of a lot of identities that are being targeted by this current administration, people of color and trans people. So I think the thing that we're worried about most is we're a small organization, so we don't feel like we're on the radar of the incoming attacks, but we do feel like it gives people kind of like fuel to come at us. You know, three years ago, when we were getting transportation for people to come from the city to Fire island, we had someone send us a letter saying that they wanted to sue us for violating the Civil Rights act because we're discriminating against white people for not providing white people transportation to come to the island. And we never asked anybody any demographic information. We're just like, if you need a ride, come. And that was before this, you know, so now I'm wondering, like, what is it going to be like now?
- [12:17]
Joan
So you have a question of, like, what do I not know what's ahead that I actually don't know?
- [12:27]
Tomic
And we don't want to apply for federal funding. We're like, let's just not even go for that. It's just like, the amount of. The amount of work that goes into applying, like, federal grant, you know, applications is not. Not worth it for.
- [12:40]
Gary
There's an. There's an irony, Tomic, about when you're a nonprofit. One of the things we hear all the time is, I want people to know us. I want the visibility. I want the exposure. And this is actually a time where, when you are running a black and brown, queer and trans organization, actually being under the radar, as ironic as it is, is probably not a bad thing or.
- [13:03]
Joan
It's a thing. It's a thing, right?
- [13:07]
Gary
It's a thing. You want to be visible enough to be able to raise money and support and have people engage in your programs, but not so much.
- [13:15]
Tomic
Right.
- [13:16]
Gary
That you're getting that big attention. I also just love. I want to say that our three guests are kind of building things and doing things in your own backyard. Like, you saw a need or you saw a need for your family, and you created it where you are. And I just think that's so powerful and hopeful right. Right now. So really, really love that.
- [13:39]
Joan
Yep. So, Adrian, what's causing you to take NyQuil in the evenings?
- [13:48]
Adrienne
Yeah, sure. Yeah. NyQuil. I think, you know, I. I think, you know, because we. It was actually kind of interesting. We have partnerships. There was interest. I'm always thinking about the data, and 92% of the families who reach out to our help desk are Black women of color, single moms, 96% are women. So different demographics. Hispanic women, bi community, people who see us as a diverse group, as a small nonprofit, they come to us word of mouth, family members who reach out to us. So I'm really worried about, as lived experiences, seniors, people with disabilities, of course, trans people who might call us, and just basically people who are connected to funding like Social Security disability that might be cut off. And we get a lot of people who don't even have basic needs like toilet paper or food. And so those are the things that are keeping me up at night because I know our help desk is going to be bombarded with fear and what to do next.
- [15:10]
Joan
I was doing some research, just even on Gen Z folks, and you're talking about different communities, but research says that 50% of folks who are in the Gen Z population have diagnosed mental illness. And as one of my kids says, and those are the ones that were diagnosed. Right. And you also look at, I believe, the Trevor Project and some of the LGBT suicide hotlines are seeing 700% increases in calls. So this notion of staying under the radar enough so you're not a target, but also being visible enough so that these people can fight, find you, and have the resources to be visible enough, it's just a real big catch 22. Laura, why don't you jump in on your sleepless nights?
- [16:03]
Laura
Yeah, I think some of the same concerns with disability funding and then just, okay, trying to stay optimistic and not worry too much about what's next. But of course, we do need to, you know, not stick our head in the sand, but, you know, staying on top of things. And then at least I think listening to expert advice and from like National Council of Nonprofits, listening to what's going on in the lab and just kind of, you know, kind of having your ear to the ground and staying connected with everybody.
- [16:37]
Tomic
Yeah.
- [16:38]
Joan
You know, it's interesting. I was talking to a client the other day who was concerned, an organization that grants money to legal aid services. And it's a legal based organization, a bunch of lawyers, and there's just such an anxiety. So there's anxiety about being so visible that you are then targeted. And then all of a sudden this money, which actually doesn't come from private donations, could actually go away. And one of the keys, and I think this might be helpful, is to think about how to reframe and how to message what you're doing in such a way that it broadens the message. So in the case of this situation, we were talking about how lawyers go to law school to ensure equal justice for all. And that's what this thing does. You don't get to decide which. All right, you went to law school to provide equal justice for all. And so everybody's gotta look for those hooks that are gonna help in your own backyard, in the work that you do. So just something to think about while we're up and not sleeping at night. Let's talk about burnout for a minute, shall we, before we take a quick break?
- [17:47]
Gary
What? No one's experienced that, Joan. Everyone's great.
- [17:52]
Joan
So Ed jobs have these high burnout rates, right? We know this. We also know that it can be even harder when the mission hits close to home. Each of the three of you have spoken about that, right? I did a podcast with a woman named Judy Kotick. Her daughter died after being hit by a New York City bus. She became an advocate for traffic safety, was actually responsible for, with a group of other folks like Judy, reducing the speed limit in New York City. And talking to her, she said it was both the best thing in the world she could possibly do and, and the hardest, honestly, the worst thing that she could do because she lived with it every single day. And I wonder how the three of you feel about that. Right? Tomic, before the episode, you talked about weathering personal attacks. Laura, you know, you think I gotta think about coming to work every day, and you're coming to work every day for lots and lots of people, but your 23 year old son is at the top of the list. What is that like for you? Like, how, how does that, how do you navigate that? Maybe we can maybe, maybe we start with Laura on that.
- [19:07]
Laura
Yeah. Yep. Burnout's very real. And caregiver burnout on top of work. Burnout, it's. It's really hard. My son's gonna need lifelong care and I'm like, wow, he's only 23 and I'm tired, you know, so it's hard. It is really hard being close to the work because when families call and, you know, they're upset with the school system or they need help with resources or their child's having behavioral issues, you know, it's. I'm a very sensitive, empathetic person and I cry right with them. So it is really hard. At the end of the day, it's like, you know, I, it can be a lot to deal with, but I just have to focus on the good work that we do and, you know, try, try to take care of myself. I. I am this year. I'm like, okay, I'm going to make my health a priority, even if I don't feel like it. I'm getting on the treadmill. I'm, you know, making dates with my friends and things like that. Things that sometimes I'm like, oh, I don't have time for that, you know, so that's important to do, I think, just for us to take care of ourselves.
- [20:11]
Joan
Yeah. But I do think it's. I'll go to Adrienne next, but I think that when the, when the issue is really. It's in your, you know, it's in your family, it's in your home, it's in you. Right. That when you hear a no on a piece of legislation or you hear a. It just feels really, really different. I don't know how to. How do you. How do you navigate that, Adrienne? I mean, you talked about your mom and. Yeah. How does this. How does it work for you?
- [20:38]
Adrienne
Yeah. I mean, also my husband, who's disabled, too, so. And I have, you know, I don't consider my. Well, I'm not disabled yet, but I have fibromyalgia. So those days where I. Yeah. So I have to sometimes work and sometimes work in bed. So I really empathize with families, specifically with, you know, making sure that they have mental health medication, making sure they're eating. Those are the things that we're challenged because, you know, funding might be low. And so we're going to be focused on some of the major basic things that we can help with. Peer support is a big thing where we can do. And then we have partnerships where we can find resources for other avenues that maybe we can't do. Those are the things I'm thinking about. As far as burnout. Yeah. I have a big issue with that. I'm. I am a person who have, like, 11 jobs. I do not lie about that. But I am taking care of myself a little bit with, you know, apps. I do meditation about five to 10 minutes in the morning. I've been journaling a. More. I'm thinking about really start. Go back to my artwork. I used to be an artist, so I'm. I guess last year was tough. And so I'm. I know it's going to be interesting 2025, but I'm just going to take it one day at a time.
- [21:57]
Joan
I think that seems really healthy. In fact, Tomik, you talked about sort of personal attacks and some of this stuff hitting home. How do you navigate that last year?
- [22:07]
Tomic
Not well. I'll be honest. You know, last Year. Actually decided to take a year off. And I think. I didn't preface. I didn't preface for anyone who's listening. Fire island is one of marketed, I guess, as one of America's oldest LGBTQ communities. It's about 50 miles off the coast of. It's about 50 miles away from New York City. It's right off the coast of Long island, and it is a gorgeous place that takes an hour and a half to get to it, and you don't feel like you're in New York when you get there. And the work was having me get to a place where, you know, before I started the organization, I used to get on that last ferry at the end of the season, devastated and counting down till next summer. And once I started the organization, it got to a point where I was getting on that last ferry and breathing this sigh of relief and throwing peace sign up in the air like, sia, I'm out of here. You know, I am so glad this season is over. And so I had to figure out a way to reconnect with the island in a way that made me love it in the first place. Right. And I have to figure out. I had to figure out a way to be able to advocate for everyone who wants access to it, you know, as well. And so I did take. I did take that year off, and I learned that I have to not make assumptions. I made a lot of assumptions that people would have my back in this work. And I learned that if you have too many assumptions, you will be let down. And it wasn't so much that people didn't have my back. It was that, like, there's this saying, like, I got your back behind the bushes, you know, like, I have your back, but I'm kind of quiet about it. You know, I'm like, hey, you're doing a great job when they pass you on the boardwalk, but, like, not really speaking up for you at community meetings or things like that. And I had to really learn to surround myself with the real stakeholders in this who are. I don't know how many people are as committed to this as, like, me and my board members, but, like, as close as we can get, you know, like, sticking with those people and making sure that you have a support system to fall back on.
- [24:18]
Joan
Laura, I saw your. Your. You were nodding your head. Was it on the assumptions piece that you started to go like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting what he's putting down.
- [24:29]
Laura
Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, nonprofits are messy.
- [24:34]
Gary
Rachel, I've heard that you don't say.
- [24:40]
Laura
It.
- [24:40]
Gary
Seemed like the two things that every one of you said were in some way, one way or another was self care and community. And Tomik, your last point about finding the right community to really support you is. Is so critical. And when I was an executive director, that is the thing that carried me was both having a personal network, you know, my now spouse and my friends who I could just be real with and be like, oh, my God, this sucks. You know, and then also the fellow executive directors community, which we have some networks in New York where we really do talk to each other and support each other and say, look, I know we're going to that rally later and we're gonna be positive and we're gonna do the thing, but right now we're gonna look at each other and say, this sucks. Cause we just need someone to be able to do that with. So community, I think, is just so important.
- [25:45]
Joan
I felt like the thing that I heard, surrounding yourself by the people who are really aligned around your values feels really, really important. And steering clear of those who are not because they actually take such gas out of your tank. And Tomic, I heard, and I wondered if Adrian or Laura have this similar thing. I mean, you kind of lost. You lost something, right? You lost Fire island as this haven for yourself and had to figure out a way to get it back. Right? There's something kind of fascinating about what you lose and what you gain in doing this work. I don't know if Adrian or Laura want to jump in on that, but, like, there's. There are things to be lost and then there are things to be gained. I don't know. Adrian, any thought on that?
- [26:33]
Adrienne
You know, we wanted to kind of go back to basics in 2025 a little, because I was thinking about what things are going to be changed, what things might be targeted, what things might, you know. And so for me, I want to kind of go back to families. Our belief is families come in all shapes and sizes. So we just talk about family. We support families and people who are in need and they need just somebody to talk to. We get a lot of people who are. I said, seniors who literally found us and haven't eaten in three days, or a mom who's just lost their mom and they don't have a place to land, and they're just in grief and just, you know. So some of those things are so powerful and things that connect with me, particular people who are dealing with. I'm passionate about schizophrenia, for example, a really tough mental health issue. And so I'm always making sure that those people have spaces to talk and breathe and share and be seen.
- [27:34]
Joan
Laura, any, any, any last thought on that one?
- [27:37]
Laura
As far as losing? I don't know. I, I think sometimes, you know, with the internal conflict and, and sometimes, you know, issues come up with the board and things like that, you know, it could, it's difficult sometimes it's hard being in it, you know, but I still, I love the organization and you know, we've had issues and we just need to work through them. And I think it's, it's really hard with really small nonprofits because usually like the board could be a, it's almost like a friends and family board. We're trying to move away from that. But you know, in the smaller, you know, it's more of a tight knit group. Sometimes there's, there's more issues with that.
- [28:15]
Joan
Right. So we're gonna, we're gonna take a very quick break and when we come back, we're going to move from the darkness into the light. We're going to answer some questions that our friends here have and also really. And talk about the joy of this work. And also while we're gone, the question popped into my head is, does being a much bigger organization make this work different for you in big ways? So when we'll be back and we'll talk about those things, transform the way you lead your nonprofit. With expert advice and a vibrant community. At our nonprofit leadership lab, thousands of kindred spirits from all around the world find time saving resources, trainings from experts and a best in class team to help you. You get a good dose of me and a remarkable community. You will never feel alone with us. And we have the antidote to so many of the challenges you face. To learn more and request an invitation, head on over to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.
- [29:25]
Gary
Welcome back everyone. As we established in the first half, running a nonprofit can be messy and hard and draining. But that is not all it can be. It can certainly also be, be joyful. There is a reason and we started out with why each of our three guests do this work. I think it would be good to maybe circle back around, circle the wagons and come back to what brings you joy in this work. What, what are you seeing right now that just makes you feel hopeful and energized? I think that's important for folks to keep in mind as well. We could go wherever first. Whoever had. You know what, Adrienne, I know that you had some joy recently.
- [30:09]
Adrienne
So let's start with Well, I just want to say. Yeah, I got an email. One of my board members was helping with thinking about space. Because some of the times when you're a small non profit, people want to ask you, oh, where's your location? And sometimes people work from home a lot, you know, as we do. But we were supposed to have a space. A building was purchased, and it's going to be some like maybe seven tiny little nonprofits in this space. And we got the kind of like the information from the city that it's moving ahead, and I got the paperwork designed. We're getting this space for practically free.
- [30:50]
Joan
Awesome.
- [30:51]
Adrienne
But it's a historic building, so we can have, like, galas there. We can have space and office. So that was the joy that I got yesterday out of so much other things. So I. But circling back also to. With people we serve. Yes, I get joy. I get joy when people, you know, when clients come to me and say, you know, you really. I had eight weeks. Because some people don't believe in therapy. They don't trust therapy. And we are a peer organization. So we're the starting point of thinking about, you know, what therapy might be a good thing. And so when they talk to us for four weeks or eight weeks, one hour a week, and we're trying to help them think about solutions to their, you know, issues, we're not giving them, trying to tell them what to do. They're trying to solve these problems on their own. I think when someone has an aha moment, like they are worthy, maybe they're a DV victim or a senior is so happy just to have, you know, like I said, food. We had a person who was literally a month and a half so hot because it was 100 degrees and they didn't have electricity, and we helped them turn the lights on. So these things are so joyful, you know, so joyous to help people in their hour in need, even if it's small. Our small grants are tiny, but those things give them hope that everything can be better maybe in the future. That's my joy.
- [32:30]
Gary
I love, Adrienne, that you're getting a room of your own. It sounds like a number of rooms, which is awesome. Throw a party and she's dancing right now. Have some meetings. That's great. And I do think that the people you help when you do this work is extremely motivating. I saw you nodding your head. Laura, let's go to you. And then Tomic.
- [32:53]
Laura
Yeah. Working from home, people will ask me, oh, can I drop off this thing for the Raffle, or can I. Where's your office? We don't have one. But always feeling honored, too, that people actually think we're that big, that we have space, you know? But congrats, Adrian. That's. That's awesome. And that is.
- [33:14]
Adrienne
Thank you.
- [33:14]
Laura
A goal for us as well. So that's very cool. Really big step. And then we also give micro grants as well, and just hearing feedback from the families or the individuals that we give a grant to. And, you know, they say how it's helped them. This year, we did Thanksgiving grants, and we did holiday grants, and I felt like, oh, Jesus isn't very much. It's a hundred dollars for, like, a dinner. And then we did, like, a couple hundred dollars to help with the holidays. And the messages I received, I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, just tearing up because you think I. You know, we always think we're not doing enough, but it means a lot to the people we serve, you know?
- [33:53]
Joan
You know, and I want to go to Tomic. I just want to say, it isn't this. It isn't the size of that gift, is it? No, it's what that gift actually means, and that's what I was getting at before the break, is that I think that there are boards, many, many boards that believe success is measured by how big your budget is. Right? The more money you raise, the more successful you are. And while I guarantee you that each one of you, if a big fat amount of money arrived on your doorstep, you'd be doing some serious happy dancing, and you would actually be able to 10x your impact. But that doesn't mean that a small organization doesn't have impact. And one of the things I've really learned by working with so many thousands of small nonprofits and coaching folks who run larger organizations is I have seen more. Honestly, I swear, I see more dysfunction with organizations that have multiple zeros on the end of their budget than I have with members of the lab who take that every single dollar. So with the privilege that it comes with it in that way. So I just wanted to say that. And I didn't mean to interrupt you, Tomic. So you're supposed to talk about joy now.
- [35:22]
Gary
Tomic, you're on for joy.
- [35:24]
Tomic
That's true what you're saying about, like, you know, you have to be scrappy when you're smaller budget. You have to make that dollar stretch, and you have to get creative with ways that you can do that. And sometimes those creative ways are really cool, you know, and they make people. They bring People in. Yeah. Congrats, Adrienne, on your space. I can't wait until we get an office, you know, and also, like, a spot where we can just store things on the island instead of lugging it back and forth. I was just saying, I think I kind of shared my joy at the beginning where I was talking about the kind of affirmations that I get from people who I haven't met. Also recently, you know, the first year that we did our big kind of flagship weekend on Juneteenth. It's called Juneteenth. I invited this DJ out who, again, I'm just a fan of hers. She is, you know, dj, when she came out for Juneteenth and I went to her birthday, and when she was about to blow out her candles, she gave a speech about how she doesn't want anybody to get her gifts, but she wants people to give donations to Babek. And she started crying when she talked about the impact of our organization. Bringing her out to the island meant to her as a black queer woman who wanted to come out and never thought that she would be able to or, you know, could come out there without having, like, a cloak on because you're worried about microaggressions or macro aggressions, you know, and it was just something I was not expecting. It was super touching, and it. What a moment where I was like, what is it all for? You know, it kind of brought me back around and. Yeah, so I think that's. That's a. That's going.
- [36:54]
Gary
Yeah, I love that story. And I think sometimes we, you know, the theme that I'm hearing here, and this is something I believe so strongly in and why my entire career has been a nonprofit. There are so many places in our world and so many sectors where bigger is better, and it's all about growth and. And it's all about the number of zeros and how big is your office and how big is your staff. And nonprofit has never set up to be that way there anytime I've ever encountered a board member who was very like, well, we should just get bigger growth for growth sake, I would call it. It's not a good fit for this sector. We are not trying to grow just to be the biggest and the best. We're trying to help our people. And it's interesting that even, you know, someone who is, like, lesbian DJ and very known in her field is like, no, this. This tiny organization on the island touched me so much. I want you all to make donations to them. So I love that we can flip that stuff on its head and say, no, you know what, we're going to do it differently. We don't think about it that way here. Adrienne, go ahead.
- [38:05]
Adrienne
And I just want to say too now, I always think about community. I go crisscrossing in Chicago area, going to different neighborhoods, and I'm always thinking about always the small, scrappy nonprofits, community nonprofits. We're there, we're in the community. I never see it, I'm not going to say, but I never see some of the larger organizations there. And so that's been a big thinking, like why, where are you at? And so I just love meeting people and families and seeing just who are you? What are you interested in our services? And that's to me is more joy. So I just wanted to share that.
- [38:46]
Joan
Well, and I also want to say, and I see Tomik has his hand up too, but Laura, I mean, there are some big players in the autism field, right? Big ones. And you made an active choice not to sort of become part of that. Is what Adrian's saying, part of that for you?
- [39:13]
Laura
Yeah, I think we, you know, and actually we started out before we became a 501C3. It was a fundraiser, a walk. We had an annual walk and we actually fundraise for national nonprofits. But then we were like, what are we doing? We should be. The money should stay locally. So that's how we came about. But we really want to help people in our community. And, and we are at those, you know, table events and things like that, doing outreach. And even though we live in a really small town, it's like you still have people coming up saying, oh, I haven't heard of you, you know, so. But it's great to be out in the community and meeting people.
- [39:53]
Joan
Yeah. Tomic, I think you had your hand up.
- [39:56]
Tomic
Yes. I had a question for Laura, actually, because one, I think there is a lot of joy in stability. Right. And Laura, I'm not sure what the budget is for programming in your organization, but I'm wondering how you figured out when to pay yourself. I was nodding along when Adrienne was talking about how she has 11 jobs. I'm like, I have four. And one of them is actually for another non profit that, you know, where I can make money. You know, I'm doing a job that it's mission aligned with mission and value aligned with my personal values. But I also live in New York City and the rent is expensive and a girl's got to eat, you know, and we have, you Know, we, we have our Juneteenth weekend, which is a pretty sizable amount of our annual budget. And I'm trying to figure out like when to. When do I, when can I pay myself? And I want to know how you made that decision.
- [40:56]
Laura
Well, actually I had, when I had my. I have a 10 year old son as well. And when I had him, I left the board. But then during COVID they actually, the board called me and said, hey, do you want a job? And they offered me the job because they were a working board and they were completely burnt out and didn't want to do it anymore. So maybe if you stop doing the work and make the board do it.
- [41:19]
Gary
They'Ll, they'll come back to you and say, hey Tomic, we have a job to offer you. Laura, did they. Was that job offer with a salary at the time?
- [41:30]
Laura
Yes, yes, it was. Yeah, Hourly. Actually it was only 10 hours. You know, you could go it really small. It was 10 hours a week. And now I'm at 20 hours a week. And really I should, I could be doing this full time because there's that much work. Because the more we became visible in the community, the more phone calls and emails and support, you know, people were looking for help. So. But I mean, I would say that could be a goal for you and that could be a goal, say to the, bring it to the board and say, hey, I want to get paid. Yeah. And then you all are going to, you know, you put it in the budget. But I mean, you should because any of this nonprofit work, it is, it can lead to burnout when you're so passionate about something to do all this and not get paid. I do feel like the, you know, getting paid can mitigate that somewhat. You know, when you feel like you're appreciated and even getting like an email or showing appreciation from the board like that can really fill my tank. You know, anytime they say something or thank me or hey, you know, good job on that project, or, you know, it really, it helps. It goes a long way, but I think you just make it a goal and do it and I'll donate.
- [42:43]
Gary
You have your first donation towards your salary. Laura, I love what you said though. You brought up something that I think sometimes folks oriented towards bigger organizations don't think of. Like, you could start out with being paid for 10 hours a week, you know, and grow from there. You know, Laura, you're part time, 20 hours a week that you can chop these things up into smaller pieces to try and get to the place you're going Which I know you all live this. We don't need to tell you, but appreciate the insight.
- [43:16]
Joan
I also think Laura said something else that's really important, Tomic, which is you have to ask for what you need. Right? You can't say, okay, everybody else comes first. And if there are a couple of crumbs left for me, but that would be nice, right? Boards generally, I mean, are there boards with tremendous appetites to raise lots and lots of money? Yes, there are. Are there more of those than others? Probably not. Right? But knowing how valuable you are to this organization, don't forget how much power you have right at this moment as the founder, if you walk away, right, where are they?
- [44:03]
Gary
That's it. That's it. They need you.
- [44:07]
Joan
So do I think in the case of all these things, you have to own your power with your boards of directors, not just hope that they will initiate, gee, we really should pay Tomic.
- [44:19]
Gary
They might never do that.
- [44:20]
Joan
They might never do that. And you might get pissed off and walk away because they'll never do that. As opposed to you saying, okay, so it has been this much time. I have these number of jobs. Babak deserves this and I deserve this amount of money. And let's scale it in over X number of years or whatever that might be.
- [44:42]
Gary
And that gets to maybe our last or second to last question. But one of the things we wanted to talk about was this concept of sort of built to last. So, yes, this is a labor of love. You all are passionate about it. That does not mean you should do it for free or do it for less than, than you are worth. It's not just about you. It's funny because Adrian, when you add her joy about the space, I thought in my mind, oh, I'll feel so much joy when Tomic gets paid for doing this work. Like, I want to come to that party, Tomic, so you have to invite me. But I really think not just because I think you deserve that, because that's part of building an organization that will last beyond you and building an effort that will last beyond you is having the resources you need that are not all on one person's shoulders to be able to continue this work. It's about sustainability. So I'm curious, in these tough times where we have turbulence and we have joy, what are, what are you all doing or what are you thinking about wanting to do to kind of build your organizations to last so this work continues perhaps even after you win the lottery and do something else.
- [46:03]
Joan
There you go. And if I can jump onto that Just to say, I happen to know that Laura is about to stroll down strategic planning lane. Right. So a good strategic plan does actually afford you a future vision for your organization, which gives you that ability to take your nose out of the cash flow and the schlepping the boxes. Right. So maybe we start with Laura because there seems to be some germ of a built to last thing and then maybe talk to Adrian and Tomik about that before we close out.
- [46:41]
Laura
Yeah, so I'm really excited about finally doing this because I've been talking to my board about it for a couple years now and it's like, oh man, well, that money, that could think about how many grants we could give away with that money, think about what else we could do, you know. But it's kind of short term thinking, you know, where it's like, if we're not going to be sustainable because we don't really have a roadmap, then, you know, taking this $10,000 and put it, putting it towards programs, that's really not going to mean anything. So I mean, it did take some persuasion, but I think they finally see the value. I know it's going to be essential to our sustainability and I'm just really happy to have this blueprint and we're getting, you know, stakeholder input, going to help with surveys, you know, revising our mission vision and all this stuff. I'm super excited. The board also is a little concerned about the time, but we're going to have a committee. If they don't want to be on the committee and don't have the time, they're still going to be part of the process. So yeah, I think it's going to be for us.
- [47:47]
Joan
Once you get into it and you start asking the right kinds of questions, this is actually the kind of work that board members make the time for because it's actually the most generative kind of thinking about thinking about what's possible. Tomik, I'm guessing you're not quite as far along in that journey.
- [48:06]
Tomic
No, not quite, but I think we have ideas. So for one, we actually defined our values. We've always said that we wanted to work with people and organizations that were valued, aligned, but we never actually stated what those values were. So we actually defined them. And the biggest one is self determination. And that is, for us, it's the ability to freely determine our place and role within Fire Island's social and cultural landscape without external pressure or coercion from the predominantly white institutions or power structures. So right now, if we want to Throw any of that. Everything is owned by, you know, a white person that we have to go and explain why this is important, right? And they're like, well, you know, I don't know. This might turn. This might ruffle a few feathers, or it's like, we just need. We need to make a roadmap for, like, how to get past that. What does having, you know, our own space where we can, like, invite our coalition partner to come and do things with look like? Also, I need. I need you, Joan. I need a white lesbian who's credentialed to come out and talk to these Cherry Grave lesbians.
- [49:11]
Adrienne
What a wonderful pitch.
- [49:13]
Laura
What a great pitch.
- [49:14]
Gary
And passport. You're going to Fire island.
- [49:21]
Tomic
Right? They don't want to hear from me. You know, I need. I need a. Not to tokenize you, but.
- [49:28]
Gary
Glenda.
- [49:28]
Joan
Glenda. Glenda. Glenda's a white lesbian, too. And I'm not exactly sure why. Why. Anyway, I interrupted you. I'm so sorry.
- [49:41]
Tomic
You did an episode a while ago with Jeremy, Joshua Hyman, and there was a big takeaway that I got from that where he said that you should tell the stories of the welcomers as opposed to telling the stories of the marginalized. And I think that is a method of communication that would be helpful for us going forward.
- [50:00]
Joan
Interesting. Interesting.
- [50:02]
Tomic
To get more kind of.
- [50:04]
Joan
Adrian, you're building to last.
- [50:06]
Adrienne
I'm trying, I think, with the, you know, having partnerships, I really believe the partnership is the way forward. Even though I might not be strategically up here, you know, this high, I think, you know, just still expanding our board is a thing that I want to do. Maybe having more community partnerships now, that's what this move is about. Where, you know, we have therapists in the building, doctors in the building. We're going to be the peer support in the building, children's community, nonprofits in the building, all these things working together. I think it's gonna be a food pantry in the building. All these things are gonna be working together, and that's the only way. So when I'm gone, maybe that will live on with the name, with the space, with that kind of stuff. So I'm. That's what I'm thinking about. How can we. All the tools that we have that I do well or step up for mental health does well. How can I leverage with other organizations what they do better in this space? And that's what I'm thinking about more.
- [51:18]
Joan
I think that's so smart, right? It's not just about who is the next person who is Going to succeed Adrian McHugh. Right. It's about what kind of ecosystem you create. You talked about atomic. Same with you, Laura. Collaborations, partnership, community, these things strengthen all organizations. They perhaps are more essential for small. The small and to make them mighty. Right to outsize them by making them mighty in that way. But they're also a different kind of path towards built to last. So. Adrienne, I really appreciated that comment. Glenda, we're just about out of time. Do we have one last question question or should we let these folks just make one final statement? How would you like to end this?
- [52:14]
Gary
I guess I would say I would love to hear a final thought from each of you. I think that would be really helpful to the listeners. And just based on the built to last conversation, I wanted to say just something sparked by each of you. When you look at trying to grow your organization to be the size it needs to be to accomplish the mission you want to accomplish. Making sure that there are different things for people to fund is so critical. So it occurs to me, you know Laura, you're starting, you started with a walk and that's what people could do. They could give money to that walk. Now you're building a strategic plan. That is the kind of thing that board members, donor people get really excited about. Like, oh, that's your vision. And it doesn't have to. So often we think strategic plan is like this opus, you know, it's like a 60 page document and it's gotta be re. No, like you could write a strategic vision right now. Tomic about this is what I see for the island. This is what I'm trying to do right now. It's this Juneteenth celebration. But this is what I want to build and a plan like that. And we often look if we're not taking care of ourselves as nonprofit leaders, which we establish, we're often too often not. We're also not putting enough importance on taking the time to do that kind of planning because it often is the thing that will pull you out of the weeds and out of the immediate. What is the thing in front of you and get people really inspired and excited to support you. So I just want to. That that's my, that's my.
- [54:01]
Tomic
Thank you. Thank you for saying that.
- [54:03]
Gary
Absolutely. I have a board member for you, Tomic.
- [54:06]
Tomic
Every time I bring that up to the board like we need to fund strategic planning, they go, that's not sexy. I tell you what, we need something sexy to get people to donate to short sighted.
- [54:16]
Gary
It's what Laura said that that's short term thinking. That's not going to get you built to last.
- [54:22]
Laura
Oh my gosh. Final words. Well, one, I just thank you for having me. I just love the conversation and I'm excited to see what we all do. We are small, but we can. Like you said, we are mighty. We're scrappy, but we could do awesome things. And, and I think just like what Joan had said, really, I think it's important for EDS to ask for what you want, you know, and just having that conversation with the board, good conversation, open communication is, is really important. And, and we're working on that with our board because sometimes, you know, it could be hard. But if you want to learn more about our organization, the Autism alliance of Northeastern New York, you can go to.
- [55:05]
Joan
A n y.org Nicely done, Laura. Adrian, you're up.
- [55:13]
Adrienne
I just want to say thanks so much. One of the things that I really enjoy is just to connect with people, like minded people, particularly people if you're a small nonprofit, reach out. The leadership lab is something that I love doing and getting information from. But step up for mental health. You want to learn more? It says step up for mental health.org awesome.
- [55:40]
Joan
Thank you.
- [55:41]
Tomic
Adrian, Tomic, John and Glenda, thank you so much for having me. I've been listening to this podcast for years and I literally gave myself a pat on the back before I signed in for this today. It's so cool to be here. I. My final thought is a piece of advice that I heard recently that has stuck with me and I think it will resonate for a lot of nonprofit leaders. And it's instead of trying harder, try softer. And if you would like to learn more about the Black and Brown Equity coalition, please visit www.babekfireisland.org.
- [56:16]
Joan
Before I joined GLAAD, before you joined GLAAD, long ago, there was a woman who was one of the external spokespeople. Her name was Donna Redwing. And I don't know if the name rings a bell or not, but Donna's speeches always started with the words imagine a world. And as I listened to you talk about Plattsburgh and Chicago and Fire Island, I thought about that phrase, the world is turbulent, right? Your communities need you to keep them on track, to be thinking about what's fair and just, what's equitable. Right? And maybe as you think about right. Can Tomik write a vision statement? He could. You could write it right now. Imagine an island where. And just take two hours. Shut off your Internet. Imagine an island where you can Market that and raise money around that, because people are going to be looking for that world. Imagine a town like Plattsburgh, where these things are true. Try that in your strategic planning process. Same thing with you, Adrian. Imagine a place like Chicago, where. And I think that could be a very helpful framing device as you think about what's the vision you're looking for. Glenda, any final thoughts?
- [58:02]
Gary
My final thought is just a deep appreciation to each of you. You are all experts. You inspire me. I know I speak for Joan when I say you inspire her, too. And you inspire so many people in the lab. The work you're doing is so critical and important, and it's time to. I like your logic, Tomic. Instead of thinking about the bigger, the better the like, let's. Let's get a little softer. Let's maybe think about our own backyard. Let's get a little smaller. Let's think about what we can do right now with the power that we have. And I want to thank you all for spending your time with us. I certainly feel ready to go out there and tackle the world. So thank you.
- [58:50]
Joan
Amen. And I just want to say to the three of you, not only thank you for your good work, but please take good care of yourselves. Right? That whole thing about putting your mask on first, I know that it generates maniacal laughter when most executive directors hear it, but say it to yourself and try not to laugh because you're gonna need it. Your 23 year old son's gonna need it. Right? They're gonna need you to be able to. Your mask's gonna need to be on right? For you to do the hard work. You're really gonna need it. So take good care of yourselves. Glenda, thank you. This was a great conversation. The small but mighty experts have taught us all a thing or two today. So thank you very much. Thank you for everyone who's listening today. I am confident that you gleaned some very valuable insights from today's experts. And we look forward to seeing you next time. Take good care.
- [59:54]
Gary
Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A special thanks thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering non profits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.