Ep 224: Fighting Loneliness In Remote Work with Tracy Brower

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 224: Fighting Loneliness In Remote Work with Tracy Brower

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host: Joan Garry
• Guest: Dr. Tracy Brower, Sociologist and Author
• Release Date: March 15, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 224 of "Nonprofits Are Messy," host Joan Garry engages in a compelling conversation with sociologist Dr. Tracy Brower about the pervasive issue of loneliness in remote work environments. Dr. Brower, an esteemed author of Secrets to Happiness at Work and Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work, brings valuable insights into how nonprofit leaders can foster connection and fulfillment within their teams.

Understanding Loneliness in the Modern Workplace

Gary opens the discussion by highlighting alarming statistics from BetterUp, revealing that 69% of professionals express dissatisfaction with their social connections at work, and 43% feel disconnected from their colleagues (00:31). He emphasizes how the shift to remote and hybrid work models, accelerated by the pandemic, has prioritized convenience over meaningful connections, adversely affecting job satisfaction and employee retention.

Notable Quote:

"What does happiness look like in our changing workplace?" – Gary (00:31)

Redefining Work-Life Balance: Embracing Fulfillment

Dr. Tracy Brower challenges the traditional notion of work-life balance, advocating instead for the concept of fulfillment and dimensionality. She argues that striving for balance implies a trade-off, whereas fulfillment allows for integrating work as a meaningful part of a fuller life.

Dr. Tracy Brower:

"Balance is a limiting concept. It suggests a trade-off, either work or life... We can have it all, just not all at once." (05:34)

Gary relates this to his personal experience as a 67-year-old nonprofit leader, underscoring the universal need for purpose and fulfillment regardless of age or career stage.

Distinguishing Loneliness from Being Alone

A crucial part of the conversation revolves around differentiating loneliness from simply being alone. Dr. Brower explains that loneliness stems from a lack of meaningful connections and the absence of choice in solitude.

Dr. Tracy Brower:

"The key difference between loneliness and being alone is choice." (12:55)

She further elaborates on signs of loneliness, such as feeling disconnected from the bigger picture, lacking appreciation, and the inability to seek or offer help within the team.

Strategies to Combat Loneliness

Dr. Brower outlines five actionable strategies to mitigate loneliness in remote work settings:

1. Invest in Relationships:
   Dr. Brower:

   "Invest, invest, invest... Ask people to give us advice. Ask people for coffee." (23:36)

2. Be Selective with Social Interactions:
   Building connections with those who energize and support you enhances emotional well-being.

3. Connect Outside of Work:
   Engaging in personal interests and hobbies can fill the void and reduce feelings of isolation.

4. Give to Others:
   Acts of giving and volunteering foster a sense of purpose and community.

5. Emphasize Dimensionality:
   Cultivating multiple sources of fulfillment beyond work contributes to overall happiness.

Notable Quote:

"When people have two or three close friends, it's more important to health outcomes than diet, exercise or drinking habits." – Dr. Tracy Brower (19:43)

Building Empathy and Stronger Teams

The discussion transitions into the importance of empathy and personal relationships within teams. Dr. Brower emphasizes that closer relationships lead to higher task completion rates and increased team efficiency.

Gary:

"The more you know them and the more that you care about them, the more you want them to be successful..." (41:59)

Dr. Brower suggests practical approaches such as mini-retreats, shared experiences, and fostering civil conversations to build empathy and understanding among team members.

Adapting to a Multi-Generational Hybrid Workplace

Addressing the challenges of multi-generational teams, Dr. Brower advises nonprofit leaders to tailor hybrid work environments to meet diverse needs. This includes providing flexibility, fostering mentorship opportunities, and creating spaces for intergenerational dialogue.

Dr. Tracy Brower:

"If we make hybrid work and we know hybrid is the future, we are not going back to 8 to 5 Monday through Friday." (32:14)

She underscores the importance of aligning hybrid work policies with the personal and professional growth aspirations of different generations within the workforce.

Practical Steps for Nonprofit Leaders

In her final insights, Dr. Brower recommends three key actions for nonprofit leaders to enhance connectedness and satisfaction within their organizations:

1. Invest in Relationships:
   Facilitate regular interactions and create opportunities for team bonding.

2. Emphasize Purpose:
   Continually communicate the mission and how each role contributes to the larger goal.

3. Foster Dimensionality:
   Encourage team members to pursue personal interests and integrate them with their professional lives.

Dr. Tracy Brower:

"We're empowering ourselves. If we feel lonely, the hardest thing to do is reach out. And the most important thing to do is reach out." (44:26)

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Gary and Dr. Brower reaffirming the vital role of meaningful connections in combating loneliness and fostering a fulfilling work environment. They encourage nonprofit leaders to implement the discussed strategies to create supportive and empathetic teams, ultimately driving their organizations toward greater impact and success.

Notable Quote:

"Pick up the phone... it makes a difference when we hear each other's voices." – Dr. Tracy Brower (44:53)

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Key Takeaways:

• Loneliness in remote work is a significant issue impacting job satisfaction and retention.
• Redefining work-life balance to focus on fulfillment and dimensionality can enhance overall happiness.
• Building and nurturing relationships within teams fosters empathy, efficiency, and a sense of purpose.
• Adapting hybrid work environments to meet the diverse needs of multi-generational teams is essential.
• Nonprofit leaders should prioritize relationship-building, purpose emphasis, and dimensionality to combat loneliness and drive organizational success.

Resources Mentioned:

• Secrets to Happiness at Work by Dr. Tracy Brower
• Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work by Dr. Tracy Brower
• DonorPerfect
• JoanGarry.com Podcast

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from Ep 224: Fighting Loneliness In Remote Work with Tracy Brower, providing actionable strategies for nonprofit leaders to enhance connectedness and fulfillment within their organizations.

Transcript

[Joan]

As a nonprofit leader, you deserve tools and support that help you to thrive. That's why I feel it is important to introduce you to today's sponsor, DonorPerfect. Their All in one fundraising platform simplifies donor management, communications and reporting so you can focus on what you do best. Changing lives. Plus, their expert team is always on hand to cheer you on. Do you want a partner who truly gets you? Visit donorperfect.com joan to learn more.

[Gary]

According to a survey by BetterUp, a company focused on unlocking human potential through coaching, mentorship and professional development, a stunning 69% of people across sectors report dissatisfaction with their social connections at work, and 43% do not feel a sense of connection with their colleagues. Most people crave these connections, and without them, employees find themselves lonelier than ever before. The pandemic exacerbated this. We know that, and that was already at play. Technology has been driving hybrid and remote work for some time, and now we choose convenience over connection and job satisfaction suffers. And this kind of connection and community that drives collaboration and retention? It suffers. Today I want to talk about the symptoms of this lack of connection, the implications, and some real strategies to offset loneliness. That said, let's look through the positive frame. What does happiness look like in our changing workplace? And my guest today will offer a compelling argument to delete Work Life balance from your long list of aspirations. Intrigued me too.

[Joan]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now, let's jump in.

[Gary]

Dr. Tracy Brower is a sociologist studying work, life, fulfillment, happiness, and the future of work. She's the author of two books, the Secrets to Happiness at Work, and it provides insights for joyful work and life. She's also written Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work and provides fresh perspectives and alternative ways to consider and achieve work life balance. Hint, it's not about balance. About more than that, Tracy is also a senior contributor to Forbes and a contributor to Newsweek and Fast Company. When I found her, I was excited and when I asked her, she said yes, more excited. Tracy, welcome and thank you.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Thank you so much. Looking forward to our conversation.

[Gary]

Great. Some quick four. One, one. On how you wound up leaning into the topic of happiness and work, I found myself wondering, okay, Tracy, did she have lousy work experiences she were hell bent on diagnosing to save others from, or were you just wildly happy and enviously so and wanted to be sure we were all having what you were having?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

I love that question. That's awesome. I think the answer is both. Absolutely. I've had some really wonderful experiences. In fact, I had a very good friend that worked on a team that I was leading and we had this like, team day. And she said, do we all realize how precious and rare this moment is? She had this like, moment of insight. Like, this is our moment. We're having a great experience.

[Gary]

Oh, and you named it.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes, we named it. We called it out. It was amazing. Like, that doesn't always happen, right? And I have had some really, really toxic experiences. Not tons of them, but a couple that have been really, really hard and gutting, frankly. And you know, I looked around at the popular narrative, quiet, quitting, lazy girl jobs, bedrotting. And it just makes me concerned because work can absolutely be a source of joy and fulfillment. Every day isn't bon bons and butterflies. But we really can rethink the narrative and we can take action to think about how we create the conditions for a good experience ourselves.

[Gary]

I think all of that is so very, very true. And I promised a robust and actionable conversation about fighting Loneline. But I want to spend a few minutes on happiness just because I like happiness, I'm happy, and particularly how you think about balance. I had such an aha moment reading your book and have talked about it and shared it with clients. This idea that we strive for something called work life balance. And you very compassionately, but clearly sort of push back on that. And I wondered if you might sort of help everybody understand what I now think I get.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

You know, I think we, we have again, popular narrative around work life balance. And I like to think that that's actually not enough. Like, balance is a limiting concept. It suggests a trade off, either work or life, either career or family. You fill in the blank. Right? And I think we can have it all, just not all at once. I've always loved that quote. Right. You can have it all, just not all. And I think it's actually more helpful to think about fulfillment, to think about navigating work and life, because life stage is a really important concept as well. We will have periods of life where we are Running fast, threading the needle, figuring out how to get it all done. We will have periods of, you know, our life or our life stage where it feels a little bit more manageable. But the opportunities to embrace both work and life, because work is part of a full life. So a lot of times we use the term work life balance to mean do less work. And in reality, we want to do a better job of empowering ourselves to have a great experience when we are working as part of a full life.

[Gary]

This is a particularly resonant conversation for someone like me who is 67 years old and I have many people in my life who have retired. In addition to being a bit of an ever ready bunny who feels a need to be highly productive, which of course isn't always a good thing. I really love what I do. I'm loving this conversation. I'm loving the fact that I meet people like you, and I don't want to give that up. And I don't think it's either pickleball or coaching clients and doing podcasts, it may be doing less, right? It may be about prioritizing, but it's. For me, it doesn't feel like an either or. So what you're describing really resonates. And I bet there are a lot of nonprofit leaders out there who are listening, who are saying, wait a minute now, I am of a certain age and I want to be thinking about what's next for myself and trying to. Trying to sort of figure that thing out, right?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And that is so much about choice and control too, right? Like. Like a lot of. There's this wonderful survey that's been done globally for a couple of decades where they ask people, if you won the lottery, would you still work?

[Gary]

Right?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And 93% of people across countries, generations, genders, say yes, they would still do something, even if it's not precisely what they do today. We all have an instinct to matter. So. So we want to do a podcast, we want to write a book, we want to volunteer, we want to mentor others. And we may get to a point that we're doing that in a different model. Maybe we're paid differently, maybe we'll work different hours, but we want to be doing something that matters. And I think that's the key, right? You frame what you're doing as really mattering, and that makes a big difference in your work, life satisfaction.

[Gary]

And so listen up, my friends who are listening to this podcast. From your garden, from your car, from your elliptical machine. Matter, meaning, purpose, fulfillment. Remember, you have the secret sauce in the nonprofit sector, that's the central piece of the puzzle, isn't it? Right. Is meaning and purpose, and everybody is looking for that. Everybody. And I say this a lot, Tracy, when I'm talking with clients is who are trying to find board members, and they feel like there's a dearth of staff or a dearth of board members. There isn't. There is not a dearth of people who want to matter in this world and want to do things that are meaningful and. And it's possible, too, I think, Tracy, and tell me if I'm wrong, but, like, I might not get extraordinary fulfillment out of my work, but I might get it somewhere else. Is that. Is that what you're talking about is sort of like a palette of experiences in your life that add up to that, give you what you actually need to fill your cup?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes, 100%. And there's a name for that. It's called dimensionality. We have more satisfaction when we have more dimensionality, that is, more placed places from which we derive meaning, more places from which we derive satisfaction, more places from which we derive identity. And there's a spillover effect. We all know about the spillover effect. From work to personal life. If I'm doing well at work, oh, my gosh, it tends to spill over into the rest of my experience. But the opposite is also true. Statistically, when you're happier outside of work, you tend to perceive greater happiness inside of work. And so when we do volunteering or gardening or grandparenting or uncling or aunting or parenting, all of those make a difference. And your point about purpose is so well taken, and nonprofits are especially cogent here. Right? We all want purpose. It operates to individual benefit and to organizational benefit in terms of statistical outcomes. But also when we have that sense of purpose that comes from a nonprofit endeavor, that adds especially. There was some really cool sociological research where they offered people payment to do a volunteer task.

[Gary]

Okay.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And people. They reported they were more willing to do it in some cases when they didn't get paid. Because when you got paid, it was a transaction, but when you weren't being paid, it was about, you know, I'm doing this because I care, because it's part of purpose, because it's part of what I want to do. Not that we're going to remove payments or salaries from all of our staff and from ourselves. I'm not suggesting that. But there is something really special and motivational about purpose. And nonprofit leaders are modeling that kind of thing every day.

[Gary]

They totally are. Dimensionality? Is that what you called it? You first talked about it. I thought you were going to say dementia. And I was like, no, no, no. You said it so ser. He said, you know what they call that? And I thought you said they call that dementia.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

That's really good. I'm going to remember that now. Every time I talk about dimensionality, every.

[Gary]

Time you talk about it, say, there are many syllables to this word. Here it is dimensionality. So here's my situation, and I think it's a little bit of a useful case study. Our entire team, folks, is remote. My wife is home. She has a full plate of volunteer consulting and getting her hands dirty as a master gardener. Other people have a bedroom, office, or a living room couch and are quite literally flying solo on their laptops. How would. So let's pick somebody on my team. How would Miguel, who lives in Miami, Florida, how would he recognize that he's experiencing loneliness? And maybe you could also distinguish between. I don't think Miguel is lonely, but maybe you'll tell me otherwise and maybe distinguish the difference between loneliness and being alone.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

The key difference between loneliness and being alone is choice. If you've been invited to go out with friends and you said no because you want to spend the evening at home, you're way less likely to be lonely. That is just about you've chosen to be alone, right? And if you've been invited to the meeting or you have the opportunity to pursue the project, or you can be present with coworkers on video, if you have those choices and options, that helps a lot. If you are flying solo and there's nobody to reach out to, you don't have a community and you haven't been able to choose that option yourself, that feels like loneliness. There's also some really interesting data that there's. 75% is kind of a number statistically. If you're really alone 75% of the time with, you know, nothing but your cat or your dog or whatever, as much as pets are really helpful to our happiness, if you're alone 75% of the time, you're likely to feel that in a more negative way. That may feel like too much, but if you think about kind of the qualitative aspects of what loneliness feels like, sometimes you feel like you're speaking a different language than your compatriots, your colleagues, your co workers. You're just not feeling like you kind of line up. You got to work hard to kind of listen and understand that different feeling, like you're speaking a different language. Can be an aspect. Sometimes you don't feel connected to the bigger picture, right? Because you. You don't feel like you're matching up in terms of how your work is being received, how you're receiving work from others. You don't have that feeling that there's something broader that you're contributing to.

[Gary]

You feel more like a cog in a wheel doing a series of tasks that don't seem tied to that bigger thing. Which, by the way, again, I want you to keep going, but I also just want everybody to hear that, right? You have a bigger picture and it is actually fueling your folks. And if they don't feel it, this is what can happen. Keep going, Tracy.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

The logic train, right? Like, I might be doing a small thing, but if I understand how it ladders up to the bigger thing, that's the key. It's not whether it's a big or small thing by itself, it's whether I've got the logic train to ladder up to it. Another thing is if you feel like you're not appreciated or recognized, sometimes that can feel like loneliness. You just kind of feel alone, like nobody's paying attention to what you're doing or recognizing it. And a really big one, I think, is if you don't feel enough connection to others that you can ask for help if you need it or know enough about what they're doing to offer help. Like that ability to kind of open yourself up, be vulnerable and ask for help is a big part of, well, being. That ability to offer help, contribute, make a difference for somebody else. So if you don't have the connection enough to do either of those, that can feel a lot like loneliness.

[Gary]

That's really, really interesting, right? I don't feel connected. I'm stuck on a task, and I don't feel connected. And I am by myself, working remotely. And because I feel so by myself, I don't feel part of a. That would help me if I asked.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Exactly.

[Gary]

Got it.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And you know what you're making me think about as we talk about this together? There's also a casual aspect to that. Like, sometimes if things feel really formal all the time, that can also feel more lonely. I need help on the project. I better get on so and so's calendar so I can ask appropriately for help and explain what I need. Right? That feels really different than, oh, my gosh, I'm going to send a quick DM or IM to Joan and ask her for her perspective, or I'm going to call somebody up on the phone. Imagine That I know that's a principle for the dinosaurs, but you know, like that casual ability to just kind of reach out informally is also an aspect of that feeling connected.

[Gary]

I really like that sometimes formality and.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Systematic approaches can feel a little bit like loneliness. Interestingly.

[Gary]

Yeah, actually for those of you who use teams or slack, we use that a lot for. Can I jump on? Can I just huddle with you really quickly? Right. Maybe I just want to tell you a funny story.

[Joan]

Transform the way you lead your nonprofit with expert advice and a vibrant community. At our nonprofit leadership Lab, thousands of kindred spirits from all around the world find time saving resources, trainings from experts and a best in class team to help you. You get a good dose of me and a remarkable community. You will never feel alone with us. And we have the antidote to so many of the challenges you face. To learn more and request an invitation, head on over to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.

[Gary]

We're talking with Dr. Tracy Brower and Tracy Brower, who, if you listen to her accent, you might guess that she's from the state of Michigan, is a sociologist studying life, work, life, fulfillment, happiness and the future of work. The author of two books, the Secrets to Happiness at Work and Bring Work to Life by Bringing Life to Work. She's a senior contributor at Forbes and a contributor to Newsweek and Fast Company. And we're talking about happiness and loneliness and the remote workplace. So the whole loneliness thing has all kinds of collateral effects at work, at a human, in relationships, in your life. I wonder if you could share and scare everyone so that they listen to you through some of your antidotes. And I think you talk a little bit about these five strategies.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, for sure. This is a big deal, right? When we write articles, we know we need to have critical reason to listen. And that's where we're at on this. When people are lonely, they're 107% more likely to be anxious. They're 78% more likely to report burnout. They're 49% more likely to be stressed. I mean, like, there's all these ancillary things that go along with loneliness. Here's something else that I just think is mind blowing and so important for us to know. There's beautiful research that was done at byu and they found that when people have two or three close friends, it's more important to health outcomes than diet, exercise or drinking habits. And on par with smoking, when you have two or three close friends, it protects you from cancer, dementia, heart disease and depression. And Anxiety and it contributes to your longevity. Like having a few close friends is really important stuff.

[Gary]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like both at a, like an anecdotal kind of personal experience. Experience level and at the level of your physical well being. So work is a key place where we make friends.

[Gary]

Yep. I was also just going to say that that demands. So one of the things a great nonprofit leader is is a relationship builder, right? Building relationships, inviting people to come closer to their organization, donor, you know, sort of asking for money is actually relationship building. In fact, learning about them and then inviting them to be a part of your work and your community of people who this particular cause. Right. So building and nurturing relationships is something every nonprofit leader has to be really good at. One of the things that tends to suffer is in this overwhelming nonprofit space where every decision means seems important and there's too many cooks and too few resources that nurturing those relationships can fall by the wayside. So I think a good warning to folks who are listening about the value of that.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, for sure. I did an article not too long ago that 69% of people say their relationship with their leader is more important to their well being and mental health than their relationship with their doctor or their therapist and on par with their partner. So the average leader hears that and goes, oh my God, like as if I needed any more demands, right? As if I needed any more pressure coming. But I think it's a two way street, right? It's a huge opportunity when we build relationships, when we attend to people at a personal level who are on our teams, that can go a long way and it can have a very positive influence. And we've already talked about spillover. So here's something else I love. I just heard this lately. So if you're a leader, the people on your team, their partners, their children, their family members know your name. Isn't that interesting? Like, this is not news to us, but it's such a big deal to build those relationships and it has a spillover effect. So anyway, really cool stuff. So there are ways that we can think about, like, how do you handle loneliness?

[Gary]

Please?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

How do you kind of empower yourself toward that? And I think the first thing is to just really reflect on, are you really lonely or have you just chosen to be alone? Right. Like anytime there's a popular narrative, we can kind of say to ourselves, you know, almost like a hypochondriac, huh, Maybe I'm lonely, maybe I need to worry about this. So I think we can be reflective. First of all, another thing we can do is invest, invest, invest. Like, sometimes I think if we're lonely, we can say, oh, people aren't calling me. People aren't stopping by. People aren't reaching out to me. And we can actually empower ourselves to reach out. Ask for coffee, make contact. There's some great research by Jeffrey T. Hall, and it finds that it takes 60 hours, 6.0hours to make a friend. And so you think about how work relates to that, right? Like, we might spend 15 minutes talking to our yoga buddy ahead of yoga. We might have an hour lunch with a personal friend on a weekend. But at work, we spend an hour on the project together. And then we were together together for a half hour in the standup, and then we talked about that really important donor for another half hour. All of a sudden you've got this wonderful time that you're investing. So work is a great place to invest, to be less lonely. But we can also lean in and invest ourselves. Ask people to give us advice. Ask people for coffee. Ask people to spend time. Because many of us are struggling with this and many people are super happy to spend that time. There's more, but let me pause and see if you have reactions.

[Gary]

No, I think all of those are so, so useful. Keep going, because I know you have that. There's. There's a couple more on your list.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Another thing we can do is be really selective about who we spend time with. There was this really cool nationwide study. They did it in like four waves. I think it was about 40,000 people. Don't quote me, but I'm close on that number. And lots and lots and lots of people have reported over the last few years, they're getting really more selective about who they spend time with.

[Gary]

Right.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Because people recognize the opportunity cost. So you can also manage loneliness by being selective about who you spend time with. Spend time with people who energize you. Spend time with people who need your support. Spend time with people that you feel nurtured by. Really be selective about who you spend time with. Also, if you spend time connecting outside of work. So inside of work. Yes, yes, yes. Also outside of work, you can also fill your time. Sometimes we confuse boredom and loneliness. And so if you're feeling lonely, maybe you take up knitting, maybe you start to learn Spanish, maybe you start a garden, maybe you start a community garden with other people. And another thing you can do is give. It's very, very correlated to happiness when we're contributing to other people. So when we volunteer, when we go to the soup Kitchen. When we, you know, read to the students at the area school, all of those things, or even if we, I don't know, you take a casserole to a shut in neighbor. Right. Those elements of giving absolutely. Help us expand our perspective away from just ourselves and our loneliness. And they serve the purpose of reducing loneliness.

[Gary]

You helped make the case for something that I learned when I got my first executive director job, because I had not previously done any fundraising before. And my development director said to me, you know, Joan, it makes people feel good to give to causes they care about. And again, listen up, my friends. Most of you have pleaser personalities, right? And so a nonprofit leader who's a pleaser, I'm told that I can make people feel good if I ask them for money and they decide that they do want to invest in the work of our organization. So I am all over your last point particularly. And it can turn someone who does not fundraise into someone who can become not only adept at it, but also enjoy it and recognizing that it. Giving someone the opportunity to participate.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes. Brilliantly said. Yes, absolutely. And this is sociologically true as well. There was this wonderful. I know, I'm always talking about the next study and the next statistics.

[Gary]

Yeah. I think it's really interesting.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

I'm just a nerd that way.

[Gary]

I think you're a very interesting nerd, actually.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Thank you. There was a very cool experiment where they gave people, it was like $5 a day or something like that, and they asked them to spend that money on themselves. You know, buy yourself an extra cup of coffee each day or buy yourself an extra, extra. You name it. Each day. Or spend that on other people. And then they did a regroup at the end.

[Gary]

Okay.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

And the people who spent that money on others, on giving extraordinarily higher levels of satisfaction fulfillment. We're giving them the opportunity for satisfaction fulfillment, feeling like they're making a contribution to a broader purpose. Right. It's a wonderful gift that we're giving them.

[Gary]

And it's amazing how often. Often board members in particular, like the framing for them is, please don't make me take. Help. Ask somebody to take a wrench to their wallet.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Right.

[Gary]

Like it is completely 180 in terms of what it actually affords the person who's being asked. Fascinating. We could not talk about remote work without talking about a generation that has not known anything. But a remote workplace, has never not known screen time or the Internet. And it's. The value of coming together is not something that they've experienced. It is presumed by older generations because they've experienced it. And I wonder, and this is a big issue as organizations grapple with, well, I really want people to come into the office two days a week or something like that, is that there's a generation of people that coming to the office is just simply plain and simple inconvenience. What kind of advice do you offer people about that, about the generation and about this how you actually speak to people for whom they see it as nothing more than inconvenience.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, it's fascinating, right? I just heard a really, really great saying. It was something like our new normal. Remember how everybody was talking about the new normal and we all decided we had to just stop using that phrase.

[Gary]

Because it wasn't new anymore.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Exactly. Our new normal, quote unquote, was their normal.

[Gary]

Right?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Like it's just a whole different perspective, right? What they've grown into. And I absolutely believe, like we talk a lot about, like if we want people in the office, we talk a lot about the who, what, when, right? Like the logistical elements. And I think we can do a really great job leading if we bump that up and talk about why. And frequently we talk about the why for the organization. Collaboration, problem solving, serving our clients, making sure we're in touch with our donors. But we can also bump it up beyond that and talk about the why for people. The why for people is about your well being, it's about your career development, it's about your opportunities to learn. And then as leaders we need to be present because one of the number one reasons that young people want to be in the office is to build their career, to get on the radar screen, to build their social capital, to have mentoring. And there's different mid generation people want to get in, get out, have the, you know, do the daycare dash, do the elder care dash, right? It's all about performance, late stage. The number one reason we typically want to be in the office is we want to leave a legacy. We want to be part of organizational memory, we want to mentor. So I think we can pay attention to that and build a case based on what we know those younger generations want and value. I think we can also be really good stewards of our own experience when we are patient with Gen Zs, right? Or the younger generation, however you wanna define that, being patient with them, right? Like this is literally new to them. I think we can also be really, really intentional about giving them challenges, stretch opportunities, holding them accountable. I think when we hold back, when we are just about comfort and not about challenge, when we are just about psychological safety and not about getting comfortable with discomfort, we actually send a message that maybe they're not capable. Like, I'm not going to push you too much because I'm not sure you can handle it. When we push, when we challenge, that's so good for people. And the third thing I think is when we give feedback and coaching, when we absolutely make sure that we're there, right there, learning, and we want them to learn and we have a lot to teach and a lot to learn ourselves. So when we're present for that coaching and giving them feedback, that's a third way that we can work effectively with younger generations.

[Gary]

And so now let's just put that into a hybrid work environment setting. You're suggesting that if I decide let's. I mean, for some nonprofits, being in the office is a non negotiable right. You might have clients who come in or, you know, just as an example. You're suggesting that that in the office experience really has to be curated and shaped in an intentional way and not just simply you need to be in the office and that they all sit at their desk behind their laptops and do the same thing they could have done at their kitchen table. You're suggesting that we introduce professional development or mentorship or something where they're stretched or learned. And I'm actually not just talking. Right. I mean, everybody wants that. Right. I would assume too that you might build in the opportunity for people to be personally connected as well.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Absolutely. All of those things are brilliant. I think if we make hybrid work and we know hybrid is the future, we are not going back to 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. For the most part, however, we may see equity challenges when we have people who are customer facing and have client facing and have to be there all the time versus people who have more flexibility. In that case, we need to be oriented toward principles and the nature of the work and transparent about why those decisions are as they are. But to make hybrid work knowing that that's the way we're going to be going, I think the more choice we can give people, right. About all kinds of things. What hours are you working? Where are you working on? What are you working? Can you influence who you're working with? Like, hey, I'd love to pull this person in on a project. As much choice as we can, creatively speaking, in the requirements of the job and the responsibility and the accountability giving more flexibility is great if you can. There's data that flexibility drives things like discretionary effort, innovation Satisfaction, retention. I think the other thing is for us to really think about how we model and set the tone. There was this great story about a leader and they went into the office and they got home and told their partner, oh my gosh, I didn't get a darn thing done. There was somebody on my doorstep every, every minute. And the partner said, that's your job. Right. Like, like a leader has tasks to accomplish. We've got things we need to check off the list, but we also have emotional labor we need to do, which is a layer on top of kind of the, the to do items. Right. And being present and modeling the way is a really, really big thing. Part of it. And to your point, there's tactics we can employ, like having people sit in neighborhoods where they can learn and listen to each other, giving people growth opportunities with different generations involved. Having things like affinity groups where we're creating personal relationships around interests. Right? Like, oh, I love motorcycling or I'm a young parent or I don't know, name your interest group. Right. And we can come together in work settings for those kinds of things as well. All of those have a really, really big effect on people's willingness to be in the office. So I think it's a both and I think we want to set guardrails. Like, it's really helpful if I know I've got to be in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I'm not thinking about it every day and trying to coordinate with my coworkers every day there's guardrails and expectations. And we're creating a place people want to be. We're creating a positive culture, right? And that makes it more likely that people will be willing to show up in the first place.

[Gary]

I also think, and I was at Stanford in September, and we're talking about the values of a multi generational workplace. And you know, again, not to put people in really, really defined buckets, but you know, people in their 20s are disruptors. And the boomers who started some of these organizations are disrupt. They were disrupt, right. And so there's a lot to learn from each other. But I think one of the points I was going to make was that this idea of using the hybrid workplace as a way to have those conversations, topic driven conversations that introduce, share stories and narratives of each other, that's one piece. And the second one is when you work in the land of disruption. And I often think that nonprofits, they're disruptors, they make us think differently about people, about causes, about issues, about art. They make us feel differently about art, for example, and the world around us. Disruption demands that we have conversations different. We also happen to live in a world where there are many people, where not everyone is walking in lockstep with one another. And so the idea that you might come to a hybrid work environment and there might be a someone comes in and talks about how to have difficult conversations, or there's been an article that everyone's read or a TED Talk. Right. It's almost, and this is a question I was going to get to with you, it's almost like, can you build in mini retreat, like things into your hybrid experience? And so I was going to ask you about retreats, but I wonder if, you know, reflect on that.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love that. I love that retreat idea and many retreats. Right? We saw a TED talk, we did an article. We talked about it. I think the thing that's so interesting about work and why work is a place that we make friends is related to your question. One, we make friends at work because we have continuity over time. Like, even if we're changing jobs every year and a half, two years, we still have that continuity of a year and a half or two that we get to know each other. One, two, we tend to make friends at work because we see ebbs and flows. I saw you on the day when you were on top of the world. I saw you on the day you were really struggling. We see those ebbs and flows with each other and in the work. And we relate on both task and relationship. We roll up sleeves and get the thing done in terms of the new campaign for donors. And I saw you at the water cooler and we talked about that thing that was going on with your family, task and relationship. And I love your point that we need to be able to have conversations differently with each other. So our shared experience is another key element of why we make friends at work. And what you're suggesting is shared experiences. The other thing that's really important in this, and I did a couple articles on civility, like, the more polarized we are outside of work, the more we as leaders, leaders need to shape civil conversation and disagreeing with each other about issues and kind of being, having disagreements without being disagreeable, expressing ourselves in really constructive ways, because that's where innovation comes from. It comes from disagreement. Right? Constructive disagreement. And so when we have shared experiences, we read the article and we saw it differently, we also build empathy, which is the foundation of innovation. It's the foundation of how we move forward. We Understand, oh my gosh, our clients, oh, my gosh, the social need, oh my gosh, the donors. We understand deeply and we can move our cause forward and we understand each other deeply, our different life experiences, our different generations, et cetera. And when we talk about that article or we talk about that TED Talk, or we have that mini retreat retreat about our purpose, or we have that mini retreat about that problem we're trying to solve, that gives us shared experience, shared language, and common ground that we can build on. And we hear each other and empathize. And that's a really important part of leadership, of course, as well.

[Gary]

And if you who are listening are sitting there saying, well, we have so much to get done during those hybrid days because that's when we're all together and we need to have back to back to back to back to back to back to back to back meetings. Keep in mind what Tracy just said. What Tracy said is taking a different approach can help you build and exercise the muscles of empathy in your team, which is essential to the, to the drive to fulfill your mission and is essential, I think, to job satisfaction and being able to put yourself in other people's shoes. All of those things. I mean, if you, if you really thought about doing some of these things as enhancing and building the empathy of your team, I believe that you would make it much more of a priority than it feels like it is when you're listening to us today.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah. You know, two other things to build on. I love what you just said. One is a lot of this we can do in the course of the work. Like, it doesn't have to be an extra thing that we do. The meeting that we have to have anyway about xyz, we can do that with more inquiry and more empathy and asking more questions. Right. And taking time to check in with people. Whatever. Right. Whatever process you want to use. That's 1, 2. There is amazing statistical data that when we have closer relationships with each other, we get more done, we follow up, we follow through, and we have more tasks completion when we have stronger relationships. So it might feel like we're taking away from the real work if we're going to be developing these relationships. But we may also gain amazing efficiency because people are more invested, they're more committed, they're more dedicated, they follow through, follow up, and complete tasks better when they feel those closer relationships.

[Gary]

Part of that too, I think, is when you really know the person. Like, I think leaders often become bottlenecks for people. They have too much on their plate and they miss deadlines. And they miss deadlines that actually impact their members of their own team. But the more you know them and the more that you care about them, the more you want them to be successful and the more likely you are to say, oh, I can't. I have to have that blog post due on, on, on Thursday, because that's when April needs it. And I want April to be really good at her job. And I know that she's got a lot going on in this sphere. Right. All of those things become kind of ingredients in the stew pot that are more than just it says I have to have it done by end of day Thursday. It provides me with additional kind of motivation, doesn't it?

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

For sure. I mean, it personalizes the work, right? If the work is transactional, you're just turning the crank. It's probably not about retention or discretionary effort either. But when it's personal, when I care about April, when I care about April being successful, when I picture that April's waiting for me and she doesn't want to work at night because I'm late with my deadline on my blog, it makes a difference.

[Gary]

We are just about out of time. You are talking to people around the world who are nonprofit leaders of organizations large and small. Board members who are trying to be really good at their jobs. One or two things that they might choose to do, some baby steps they might choose to do to create and promote this sense of connectedness that drives job satisfaction.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, I love it. Just a couple things. One, I think invest, really invest, really create space for relationships and coffees and, I don't know, virtual connections make that investment in relationships. I think another is really emphasized purpose. When we're asking for the give, when we're asking for the time from employees, when we're asking for the commitment, we're really emphasizing purpose. We probably can't do that enough. And I would say the third thing would be about many syllables, dimensionality. I think like many of us lean in automatically to our work, right? Especially nonprofit leaders. But we can also kind of lean in on personal. And when we think about investing energy in both of those things, that makes a really big difference for our fulfillment and satisfaction, fills us up and helps us motivate others as a result. So those would be my three things.

[Gary]

So it's a two way street. What you're really saying is that if I engage in these kinds of activities, I am fueled and I am also fighting. I'm pushing against this notion that you are a cog in a wheel sitting on your couch in Miami and not connected. Right. So it actually, it helps me and it helps Miguel and all those other folks around the country who are part of a team.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, essentially, we're empowering ourselves. If we feel lonely, the hardest thing to do is reach out. And the most important thing to do is reach out. Right. Like, really invest and. And put the energy in to making those connections.

[Gary]

All right. I said one last question, but I wasn't being truthful. I used to think that the telephone was not a personal, familial kind of thing. Right. I don't know. Like, I can't go and have coffee with that person. I'll just call them on the phone. The phone means something different today, doesn't it? This is my last comment because I actually think we don't pick up the phone often enough. So I'll give you the last word on the phone.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Yes, pick up the phone. And pick up the phone in whatever way that looks for you. You may not even drink coffee, but you want to get together with somebody virtually, or you want to text somebody and just let them know, hey, I'm thinking about you. Or you want to reach out to somebody on LinkedIn and say, I don't have an agenda. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I just want to let you know I'm thinking about you. And when we pick up the phone and hear each other's voice, I know it's a lost art, but it is an art, and it makes a difference when we hear each other's voices and know each other are kind of in the same soup and thinking about each other as well.

[Gary]

Yeah. So next time a holiday comes along, rather than send an email out to your staff, set aside 90 minutes and make sure you have everybody's cell numbers. And if you can't reach them, shoot them a text, but try to pick up the phone and call them. It's amazing how much of a difference that can actually make. It feels very high touch in a world that I grew up in, wherever the phone wasn't high touch at all. So we're all lifelong learners, and today we have learned a boatload from Dr. Tracy Brower. So, Tracy, thank you so much for joining us and for being such a fascinating nerd from Michigan. And some of the. We will put in the show notes some of the things that Traci referenced so that you have some data to some things to look at in support of some of the things that Traci talked about today. So, Tracy, thanks very much.

[Dr. Tracy Brower]

Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Gary]

My pleasure. So that's it for today. Thank you very much for joining us. You could have been doing a lot of other things, but you decided to invest a little time and energy in your own professional development by having a listen to our conversation. Hope you found it valuable. Take good care of yourself and we'll see you next time.

[Joan]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.