Ep 225: The Secret to Sustainability: Taking Care of Yourself as You Lead

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 225: The Secret to Sustainability: Taking Care of Yourself as You Lead

Podcast Information

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host: Joan Garry
• Episode: Ep 225: The Secret to Sustainability: Taking Care of Yourself as You Lead
• Release Date: March 29, 2025
• Description: Joan Garry, former Executive Director of GLAAD, provides insights and support to nonprofit CEOs, Boards, Fundraisers, and Marketers.

Introduction In Episode 225 of "Nonprofits Are Messy," host Joan Garry, alongside guest Glenda Testone, delves into the often-overlooked aspect of sustainability in nonprofit leadership: self-care. The episode emphasizes that while sustaining a community or mission is crucial, leaders must also prioritize their own well-being to maintain long-term effectiveness and prevent burnout.

Sponsorship Message The episode begins with a sponsorship message from DonorPerfect, highlighting their all-in-one fundraising platform designed to simplify donor management, communications, and reporting for nonprofit leaders, allowing them to focus on their core mission of changing lives. [00:00]

Guest Introduction: Maryam Habib Glenda Testone introduces Maryam Habib, a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma, and an educator, facilitator, and trainer. Maryam's expertise lies in supporting nonprofit leaders, particularly those from marginalized communities, to navigate personal and professional challenges.

Understanding Sustainability in Leadership Glenda Testone sets the stage by defining sustainability as the ability to maintain or support something over time. She highlights a critical insight: most nonprofit leaders focus on sustaining their mission but neglect the importance of sustaining themselves in their leadership roles. Maryam Habib addresses this by sharing her experiences and strategies to help leaders maintain their well-being while leading effectively. [04:00]

Maryam Habib’s Journey Maryam recounts her early experiences that shaped her path as a helper. She describes participating in the "Natural Helpers" program in eighth grade, which recognized students as peer supporters and provided training on listening and effective communication. Growing up in a nurturing immigrant community instilled in her a sense of collective responsibility and empathy. A significant personal loss—the early passing of her mother before her ninth birthday—deepened her empathy and ability to support others in pain. [05:13 - 10:00]

Impact of Identity and Belonging The conversation shifts to the intertwined concepts of identity and belonging. Maryam explains that a strong sense of identity can fuel commitment and pride but also makes leaders more vulnerable to suffering, especially when they serve communities to which they belong. This duality can intensify both the highs and lows of leadership roles. [14:25 - 15:15]

Purpose and Path in Leadership Maryam discusses how purpose and path are not static but evolve over time. She contrasts the popular notion of finding a singular, unchanging purpose with the reality that leaders must continually reassess and adapt their mission and methods. Using the metaphor from Judy Brown's poem "Fire," Maryam illustrates the need for flexibility and perspective to keep the "fire" of purpose burning without being doused by the complexities of leadership. [20:38 - 23:00]

Do’s and Don’ts for Sustainable Leadership

Don’ts:

1. Martyrdom and Overwork: Maryam warns against the romanticization of exhaustion and overworking, which can lead to burnout and resentment. Glenda shares a personal anecdote about being pressured to work despite experiencing anxiety, highlighting the importance of setting boundaries. [27:00 - 28:51]
   • Maryam Habib [27:22]: “It’s like a major pitfall, and it’s like a huge hole in the sidewalk as soon as you step out the door right there.”
2. Lacking Self-Awareness: Failing to recognize when one is overwhelmed or neglecting self-care can disrupt relationships and organizational health.
3. Overemphasis on Achievement: Focusing solely on metrics and performance can erode trust and lead to a performative leadership style, as opposed to authentic and vulnerable leadership. [32:27 - 33:54]

Do’s:

1. Establish Healthy Boundaries: Maryam emphasizes the importance of boundaries not as barriers but as containers that protect and sustain one's energy and commitment.
   • Maryam Habib [37:44]: “Boundaries create the container within which your yes is authentic.”
2. Invest in People: Building and developing staff and leadership within the organization ensures long-term sustainability and allows leaders to delegate effectively, preventing feelings of being trapped. [38:11 - 38:46]
3. Build a Support Network: Creating a robust network of peers, mentors, and support systems is crucial. Leaders should not attempt to navigate challenges alone but lean on their support systems for assistance and guidance. [38:46 - 39:35]
4. Attend to Personal Well-Being: Prioritizing self-care by maintaining physical health, engaging in reflective practices, and nurturing relationships outside of work is essential for sustained leadership. [41:07 - 41:56]

Final Words of Wisdom As the conversation concludes, Maryam offers three key takeaways for leaders seeking sustainability:

1. Do Your Inner Work: Engage in self-reflection and address personal wounds to prevent them from affecting professional relationships and organizational dynamics.
2. Don’t Go It Alone: Leverage support networks and build strong teams to share the load.
3. Attend to Your Life Beyond Work: Maintain a balance by tending to physical, mental, and relational well-being outside of professional responsibilities. [42:58 - 44:37]

Glenda Testone echoes these sentiments, sharing personal growth experiences and the vital role of authenticity and vulnerability in building trust within organizations. She underscores the importance of leaders taking care of themselves to foster healthier, more resilient nonprofits. [44:36 - 46:38]

Conclusion The episode wraps up with heartfelt appreciation for Maryam Habib’s insights and a reminder of the significance of self-care in sustaining both leaders and their organizations. Joan Garry and Glenda Testone extend their gratitude to listeners and sponsors, encouraging nonprofit leaders to prioritize their well-being to continue making impactful changes in the world. [47:33 - 48:17]

Notable Quotes

• Maryam Habib [15:15]: “The highs are higher and the lows hit harder.”
• Maryam Habib [27:22]: “It’s like a major pitfall, and it’s like a huge hole in the sidewalk as soon as you step out the door right there.”
• Maryam Habib [37:44]: “Boundaries create the container within which your yes is authentic.”
• Maryam Habib [44:39]: “And there's those relationships to yourself, to your loved ones, to your community. That's why we're there in the first place.”

Key Takeaways

• Prioritize Self-Care: Nonprofit leaders must take proactive steps to maintain their physical, mental, and emotional health.
• Set Boundaries: Establishing clear boundaries helps protect personal well-being and fosters authentic leadership.
• Invest in Teams and Networks: Building strong teams and support networks ensures sustainability and prevents leaders from becoming overwhelmed.
• Embrace Authenticity: Being genuine and vulnerable builds trust and strengthens organizational culture.
• Continuous Self-Reflection: Regularly engage in self-reflection to adapt and grow within leadership roles.

By integrating these practices, nonprofit leaders can achieve long-term sustainability, ensuring they remain effective and fulfilled in their mission-driven work.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

As a nonprofit leader, you deserve tools and support that help you to thrive. That's why I feel it is important to introduce you to today's sponsor, DonorPerfect. Their All in one fundraising platform simplifies donor management, communications and reporting so you can focus on what you do best. Changing lives. Plus, their expert team is always on hand to cheer you on. Do you want a partner who truly gets you? Visit donorperfect.com joan to learn more.

[Glenda Testone]

So chances are, if you're a nonprofit leader, you are probably someone who cares about other people. In fact, it might actually be your job to care for other people. So you might assume that these people would be really good at taking care of themselves. Wrong. Our expert, Maryam Habib has been caring for nonprofit leaders as they try to care for themselves for years and she has some wisdom to share. Hi, my name is Glenda Testone. I'm the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and a senior partner at Joan Gary Consulting. I'm a huge podcast fan ranging from true crime to politics to well being and wisdom. Let's hope we have new true crime today we just have the politics, well being and wisdom. I'm also a guest and sometimes host on this podcast. For all of my career I have been living Nonprofits are messy. As a leader, both in board and staff seats, I come to you dear listeners, having four decades, walked, run and limped in your shoes, I truly get what you're facing and going through and I want to help. So it is a true honor to have one of my favorite helpers on the podcast today. Maryam Habib is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in trauma and she's also an educator, facilitator and trainer. I don't know a single nonprofit leader who does not need what Maryam has to offer, and I speak from direct experience. So stay tuned and get ready to dive in while we figure out how to care for ourselves while trying to care for and transform the world. Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and that Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big question questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to Donor Perfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in so there's A lot of talk in our world about sustainability. It's kind of a long word, but very simply, it means the ability to maintain or support something over time. Most nonprofit leaders that I know are trying to sustain their community might be the animals they love and advocate for, could be the environment, political, natural, educational that we all live in. Any or all of those things. But one of the biggest secrets is that most leaders do not spend enough time thinking about and working to sustain themselves in that leadership role. My guest today, Maryam Habib, spends a good amount of her time focused on that. So let's get right into it and see if we can learn from what Mariam has seen. I know Mariam because she is the facilitator of a group that I had the privilege of being a member of for over 10 years. It's a support group for executive directors, and in this case, specifically, LGBT executive directors of LGBT organizations. Mariam has been facilitating it for about six years. And in her own words, Maryam Habib holds courageous, generative space for growth and transformation. She is rooted in the liberatory power of love, empathy, and human dignity. As a queer, bicultural person, Mariam is well versed in helping people navigate the complexity of. Of identity, belonging, purpose, and path. She holds a particular commitment to trauma survivors, queer folks, immigrants, and people of color. And she strives to help all develop an authentic and joyful sense of self. So first, Maryam, let's dive into you. I know you, but how. How did you become a helper yourself? When. When did it begin for you? And. And what's going on now?

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for the question, and thanks. Thanks for having me here. This is. It's so fun and exciting to hang out with a friend.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I feel the same way. And I know you well enough to know that you have incredible things to share. You have seen and experienced a lot of leadership peaks and valleys. So I want folks to get the opportunity to learn from you today, but I want them to know who you are a little bit.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah.

[Glenda Testone]

So how did Mariam become Mariam?

[Maryam Habib]

I've been lucky. I've had the privilege to, as you said, see a lot of leadership peaks and valleys. I feel like I have a real specific answer to the how did it begin? So I would say the formal beginning of my life as a helper began in eighth grade when I was selected for a program called Drum roll, please.

[Glenda Testone]

Natural Helpers.

[Maryam Habib]

Thank you. Natural Helpers.

[Glenda Testone]

Of course, it was.

[Maryam Habib]

It was this great program where they, like, surveyed everyone in the school, all the students, and all the teachers. And they asked you to write down two students that you go to when you have a problem and two teachers that you go to when you have a problem. And then they took those of us who were like named the most or whatever. They took us on a retreat which was so fun. And they taught us a lot about how to listen and I think particularly for students, how to know when you need to involve a grown up. Wow. Yeah. Isn't that amazing?

[Glenda Testone]

That's an incredible program. I'm shocked. Where were you living? Where were you growing up?

[Maryam Habib]

The great state of New Jersey.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh. Which is where I am now.

[Maryam Habib]

Dear listeners, I have deep and unabashed love for the Garden State. Come at me, I dare you. It was amazing. I had this. I felt such an appreciation for that program now I think as a kid I was like, oh good. People feel like, you know, I'm a good listener. It felt like accolade, you know. And then going on the retreat felt really fun and amazing. Fun fact. My roommate on that retreat also grew up to become a social worker.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh wow. Isn't that like a social worker multiplier? That was like an early identification program for social workers and therapists.

[Maryam Habib]

So we learned some skills there about like how to listen, how to help and particularly I think they were trying to make sure kids didn't get overburdened with things that were beyond them. So it was a really great program. But I think the seeds for that behavior were sown earlier. I was raised in an immigrant community that was really nurturing, really tight knit and really ran on a sense of collective responsibility. We are responsible for one another's well being. We pull together and that really shaped me. Being first gen really gave me a lot of good practice in paying attention to the needs of others and also in holding multiple perspectives. Like I had like a foot in multiple worlds like a lot of first gen kids. And nurturing that multiple perspectives thing I think is really important in the helping profession. It manifested as like code switching and like all this other stuff.

[Glenda Testone]

Sure.

[Maryam Habib]

I think it's a really helpful skill when you're going to be a helper.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

I think you know this already but my mom died early in my life when I was just a few weeks before my ninth grade birthday. And you know, that's a big, a big wound and a big life changing, life shaping experience. And that's echoed throughout my life in so many different ways. But one huge gift that she left me in that way is that it deepened my empathy and really strengthened my Ability to sit with people in pain, to show up in those spaces. From. From early on, it felt. I don't know, it felt natural. It felt easier.

[Glenda Testone]

I did not. I mean, I have known you for years now, and I did not know that about you. And hearing you say that, I'm like, oh, that explains so much. Like, you are one of those people where when something really hard happens really terrible, there are people that run towards that and there are people that run away. And I'm not judging either, but you are. You are clearly a person that can run towards and hold space for others. And that's. I'm so sorry to hear about your mom.

[Maryam Habib]

It's a really rough hand to be dealt.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

And somehow, you know, and this is. This is the nature of trauma, actually, is that there's post traumatic stress and there's post traumatic growth, and we are shaped in many ways by those. Those big, defining experiences of pain shape us for the better as well as give us, you know, obstacles that we have to work through. It's kind of amazing.

[Glenda Testone]

I love that. I love that. That just. That connects so many dots for me about you. That's amazing. And so when you. When you kind of got out of school and went to work, what did that look like for you?

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I had a bunch of jobs trying to. I had, like, Phil Gas driving on the shoulder of the career highway for a second.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

You know, trying to merge in, trying to get on there. And ultimately, I spent almost a decade working in, like, various grassroots nonprofits with missions from, like, queer fundraising to international education and student exchange to racial and economic justice. All the good stuff. And those experiences, like, politicized me and helped me understand myself and the world more. And ultimately, I decided to go to grad school to learn more about how to put my skills to work in service of the world I really wanted to build. Like, how do I be part of that?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

I went to social work school, and I was placed as a trauma therapist in my second year placement. And I just felt that I had come home. I was like, oh, this is it. This is. This is. This is the place I'm supposed to be. It's such a good feeling, you know?

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Maryam Habib]

So then I worked at the sexual assault and violence intervention program at Mount Sinai Hospital for 10 years, and it was a dream job. I was, like, exactly where I want to be. I worked with some truly wonderful, amazing people. I learned more than I could ever measure. It taught me the fundamentals of everything I know about trauma and Healing. And it's also where I learned about burnout and started thinking more deeply about sustainable practice, which I would say sustainability is to do the work for as long as you want to while staying in your wholeness, your wellness, and in your integrity.

[Glenda Testone]

Ooh. Well, your definition just blew my definition out of the water. Right.

[Maryam Habib]

I've had decades to hone it.

[Glenda Testone]

I totally agree with you. As. As a leader, as a former leader of a nonprofit, there is a way in which there's, like, healthy compartmentalization, and then there is a way in which you sort of subjugate some parts of yourself to be able to bring other parts forward. And if you don't balance that out, somehow, it becomes unsustainable.

[Maryam Habib]

Your. Your.

[Glenda Testone]

Your body and your soul is. No, you can't do that forever. It just does not. Does not work that way.

[Maryam Habib]

They go together.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. So you. I love that definition. So you've been actively supporting nonprofit leaders. It just struck me when I. When I sort of read your bio, this concept of identity, belonging, purpose, and path, and you help people sort of grapple with those things. And I know this firsthand because I was one of those people. You supported me along with my colleagues and peers, and that support in that group really sustained me for 14 years. So I want to break it down a little bit because I think these four components are really important for any leader to understand function in leadership and how they show up. Because tending to them, I think, can help really improve your chances of sustainability and staving off burnout. So identity and belonging. How can one's identity and sense of belonging impact their leadership? Positively, negatively, in between, you know, I currently am the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. We have about 6,000 nonprofit leaders who we create a place of belonging, for they often come to us and think, oh, I found my people. These people understand what I'm saying. They get me. So talk about those two things a little. The identity and belonging.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. They're such important concepts. Right. And I really. I think of those as interwoven. So in our work, identity can bring us a sense of pride.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

It can deepen our sense of commitment and responsibility. It can really fuel our work.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

But one thing I've seen and really learned, both when I was working in, primarily in anti violence work, and now when I do a lot of work with particularly queer leaders, but also other leaders, when we're serving a population to which we also belong.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

That we also identify as. It can make us more vulnerable to suffering. So if we're working with Recent immigrants or trans folks or queer youth or something else, and we belong to that same community. It raises the stakes.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

You know, there's more pressure, the pressure we put on ourselves and the pressure of other people's expectations of us, of a responsibility to, like, care for our own. You know, we may feel the losses in the work more acutely because we know the consequences in our own bones. Yeah, right.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

So, like, the highs are higher and the lows hit harder.

[Glenda Testone]

That is so true.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, I know. You know, I do.

[Glenda Testone]

I do. I remember. I forget what year it was, but the Pulse massacre in Orlando, and I was running the LGBT center, and it was like, oh, my God. I am. I am devastated. I am scared for myself and my people. But I have an organization to run, and I have a staff and a board and a community that's looking to me. I gotta pull it together for them.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, right.

[Glenda Testone]

Which is maybe a good moment to pause and say, what about that sustainability? How do you. It really. It hit me very deeply, but I didn't have a lot of time to process that. I had to immediately do things.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. And that depth of feeling. Right. That's what I mean by we know the consequences in our own bones. It's not a story, you know, it's in our own bodies and hearts. We know. And that depth of feeling that you had is a fuel, you know, for the work, and it means you're bringing a different kind of heart to the work. I think that's important. And it costs you. You know, it's. It takes a different toll, and sometimes there's not time to attend to that. Right.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

But I think identity is also about knowing ourselves, knowing who we are, being integrated, claiming all the parts of ourselves and affirming them, even as we are imperfect and continue to grow and. Etc. And that's where it interweaves, for me with belonging. So I really believe the most important thing about belonging is figuring out how to feel a deep sense of belonging to yourself. I know. I think. You know, I really feel that's a very heartfelt belief. Renee Brown talks about fitting in versus belonging, and she says that belonging is feeling accepted and valued for who you are, who you truly are, while fitting in means like reading the implicit rules and adapting yourself to that. And the thing is, if we don't figure out how to truly belong to ourselves, how to truly accept ourselves as we are, then we'll keep going with fitting in. Right. Which is safe but hollow.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely.

[Maryam Habib]

So when we want to create, like, a culture of belonging, at work, one where people feel like they have a shared purpose that motivates them. They feel valued, supported, connected. They're free to be themselves. They can be curious, they can learn, make mistakes, blah, blah, blah. It is a lot easier to build that kind of culture as a leader in an organization when you've already done that internal work of belonging to yourself, accepting yourself, knowing yourself, because then the culture is built on your authenticity, vulnerability, realness, warmth, etc.

[Glenda Testone]

That hits me so deeply. I really can relate to what you were saying. And I. For listeners who may not know, I was a first time executive director of the New York City Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Community center. And I wound up being there for 14 years. And I think I started that journey trying to fit in, trying to see what is the culture here, what do I need to be? And I was very used to that in my life. And then some really intense, complex challenges came up and it wasn't working anymore. People were so diametrically opposed. And I really needed to figure out, well, what do I truly believe? What is the way that I want to live? Because at the end of the day, it's just my head on the pillow. And if everybody else in the world, every other gay person out there in New York City is okay with this, but I'm not, that's not going to work. So I had to really develop that belonging to myself. Did you talk to my therapist?

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, just before.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay.

[Maryam Habib]

Just before. Okay.

[Glenda Testone]

It seems that way.

[Maryam Habib]

You're doing great.

[Glenda Testone]

Seems that way. Great, great. So I learned. I was like, oh, yeah, it's me. It's inside first. You have to. You have to look inside first. I knew exactly how to please other people and, you know, how to make them feel good. I really needed to learn how to do that for myself. So I. I just want to underscore that for any leaders out there who are also on that journey. And my God, is it so much more fulfilling and easier when you get to that point when you know what you really believe and. And you can walk that path?

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, yeah. It takes more courage but way less effort to just be who you are.

[Glenda Testone]

Totally, totally.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah.

[Glenda Testone]

That's amazing. And I. Now I'm curious about the other piece of this sort of the purpose and path, because I think so many nonprofit leaders have such a strong purpose. This is what I'm born to do. You know, they have that moment, like when you walk into the trauma therapist and you're like, oh, this is it. This is what I should be doing.

[Maryam Habib]

They.

[Glenda Testone]

They start their nonprofit or they get into their nonprofit and they're like, oh my God, this is my purpose, this is the path. So how have you seen that kind of work for leaders? And what advice would you have to give around those two concepts?

[Maryam Habib]

Those are things that I think are an ongoing project. I mean, so is identity and belonging, but they're a little like this sense of belonging. You know, things shake it so. Or our understanding of who we are evolves as we evolve through life, but less think about purpose and path. We live in a world where the idea is you're going to find your purpose and that's your purpose. That's it. I found it and now I'm going to do that forever.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

And some people have lifelong careers doing one thing and it suits them. But even in that scenario, the nature of the thing evolves over time.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

And the sense of like feeling fired up, feeling like, oh my God, Yes. Excitement, motivation. We find it when we walk in. And then, you know, 7 billion spreadsheets later, 7 billion crises in the world later, we're kind of like, we can get dulled out, we can get burned out. Totally.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

Purpose and, and same with path. It's. There's the idea that we're going to get on a path and it's going to go to a logical destination.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

Nothing like that. Of course. I mean, people know that if you stop to think about it. We know that, but that implicit pattern is baked into us.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

The idea that we're the purpose is kind of like you find it and you've got it. The path is you get on it and you're, and you're good. And of course they're not like that. So I think these are things that we have to really like continually check in on. They're not linear. We're charting it as we go. You know, I don't, I don't remember it, but it, it reminds me of the. Make the road. You know, there is no path. We make the path by walking. We make the road by walking.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, that's.

[Maryam Habib]

That's what it's like when you're doing mission driven work. That's about the world we're trying to make.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

So I guess the other thing I'm thinking of, Right. I was thinking about this and it's like this has to be tended like a fire. And I think a lot about this. There's a poem called Fire by Judy Brown and she has this really beautiful opening line and it is about fire and space between the logs.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

[Maryam Habib]

What makes a Fire burn is space between the logs that too much of a good thing can douse the flames. And I think, you know, it's a nice metaphor, but it really reminds me that feeling, that sense of purpose, being sure that we're on the right path, knowing how to adjust and how to, like, keep that fire burning, requires enough space to have perspective, enough space to, like, feel what we feel, to, like, get. Get in touch with that inner wisdom as we go. Yeah, that's some of the stuff I think about there.

[Glenda Testone]

You know, when you were talking, it makes me think about founders of nonprofit organizations, of which I know many. There are many members of the lab who are founders, and they are also trifectas. And what that means for us is it's one person, but they are the ed. The board chair and the program director, and they're the founder. They're doing it all and they find their purpose. They get on this path and there's no air between the logs. There's no space to shift and say, wait, this was a good model to get things going, to get things off the ground. But this is not a sustainable. This is not the way it needs to operate if we are really going to succeed. But some people have a really hard time getting. Getting out of that, like, being able to look at the path differently and their position in it, their identity, their belonging. Like, how. So it's just to say that everything you're saying rings true, I think for a lot of nonprofit leaders. And if you are aware and allowing yourself the space to breathe, you do see, it does change over time. It does. It's not like you're one thing, and that's the thing that's going to fulfill you and fulfill the mission for the rest of your life. So being open to that feels really important.

[Maryam Habib]

That's what keeps it, like, alive and dynamic rather than, like, flat and robotic. And I think that's true in a lot of different, you know, when you're talking about it, it's also the same as when you're in a relationship. You start a relationship, you've got a particular, like, huge well of, like, energy, joy, excitement, desire, blah, blah. You, you can stay up late. You can, yeah, commute to Queens. You, you, you. You can do all kinds of things. And that doesn't work for most of us anyway. Disclosing too much here, this doesn't work for the long haul. You need other strategies that you grow into. Right. What gets a thing off the ground is a different beast than what sustains it and gives it, like, Deep roots.

[Glenda Testone]

So true. So true. So I want to. I wanna get binary for a second and. And talk about what you've seen. Sort of the good and the bad. It's not usually the way I like to think about things, but I want to try to get pragmatic for people. I want to get really tangible. There are leaders out there listening, and they're like, I want to sustain myself. I want to take care of myself. I love this work. I want to do it for a really long time. So let's start with kind of the bad. What have you seen leaders do that really brings them down? Sabotages their efforts to care for themselves or even their own organizations? What are some of the sort of don'ts? If we have a do's and don'ts category.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. Long list for both of these.

[Glenda Testone]

I think we got time, Mario. Go ahead, Go ahead.

[Maryam Habib]

Okay. I wish I could put these in, like, order of importance. I'm just going to say them. So I think one thing that really sabotages people, and there's zero surprise here, is, like, this martyrdom falling for the glamour of exhaustion.

[Glenda Testone]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Keep going.

[Maryam Habib]

Right? It's so glamorous. I'm so dedicated. Is everyone seeing my dedication? And here's the thing. Most people really have a heart for what they're doing. They're not trying to look good. But we get so much positive affirmation for, oh, you always go the extra mile. Oh, you know, she used to stay at the office till 10pm oh, so much of that, like, mythology.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

And it's really easy to fall for the romanticization of overwork 100% and the idea that that is somehow indicative of your goodness, of your depth, of your dedication. It's like a major pitfall, and it's like a huge hole in the sidewalk as soon as you step out the door right there. So. And I believe very deeply in doing our work with a heart of service, which means you, like, you're showing up, you're being generous with your time, energy, and attention in order to get the job done. You're not nickel and diming and saying, well, it's 501. I gotta go home. Yes, to boundaries. But also, we are responsible for being good stewards of the resources we have in this life.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

You know, when we fall for that thing, we get sick, we get chronically exhausted. We ignore our own limits. We can end up resentful, bitter, all kinds of things. So that's. That's a big one.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, that's the, that's the sound of knowing, listeners. That's the sound of oh, I've probably done that. Yeah. And it's very alluring. Right. Because you get a lot of positive reinforcement for that. It reminds me of there was a particularly hard moment at the center and I was in a cab on the way to the doctor to try to get some prescriptions to help around some of the anxiety that I was having. And I got a call from my board president who was like, what are you doing right now? Why aren't you on the phone calling X, Y and Z? And I remember thinking, because I can't possibly call those people unless I get this prescription and I am able to then go call these people now. I did not say that. But that's a don't, listeners.

[Maryam Habib]

That's a don't. Yeah, that's a don't.

[Glenda Testone]

But I did, I was proud of myself. I did not say turn around, go back to the office. You know, I said I'm going to the doctors. Sad how going to the doctors for something physical is very validating. Going to the doctors for something mental, less so. And I did that and then went back to the office and called those people. So, but keep going. Martyrdom.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. I want to say that I'm like stating these with compassion because like most of the don'ts that we're doing, we're sort of falling into based on the structures of the system we live in. Totally less than some malicious or manipulative or some shitty drive. Sorry inside where. Thank you. People are good people and wanting to do their best and these traps have been laid for us by the world.

[Glenda Testone]

It's like you get these jobs and you find yourself in a production, like a play you didn't know you were, you were joining. And there's a script, there's like a script that if you're not careful, you start following that script and you can fall exactly in, into those, those holes.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. I think more simply another don't is like lacking the self awareness to know that you're not okay or lacking the humility to think you need self care or seeing self care as sort of mushy or weak or I don't know, having some sense of condescension to that stuff. And I think it sort of goes hand in hand with the martyrdom thing. Like we celebrate like the strength of, you know, working a 75 hour work week. And it's like, well, is that strength? But so I really love that you were, you know, you were like Wait a minute. I need more help. I can't do it like this. Even though there's a crisis, I've got to get in a cab and go to this doctor's appointment. You know, there's a really good self awareness there and the humility to know, hold on, I can't do it like this.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. And you know what? You never know how other people are going to react until you try. Like, that board member was not an asshole. He was not, you know, trying to. He didn't wish me ill. He was just saw the problem. He didn't know what I was grappling with. But when I said, I am going to the doctor, he was like, okay, okay, go ahead. So I just encourage people to, to try that, to, you know, to have that self awareness and then to put that out there. Because good, caring people will adjust to your boundaries. You just have to try it. Which can be scary, I acknowledge.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, well, and as a leader, there's some power in there. Like there's, there's some possibility in there because of your power. Right. So if you're leading in this particular way, it sets a tone, it sets an expectation, it models something, whether it's for your board or your staff or your community that you serve. That I think is a really responsible, helpful use of your role and your visibility.

[Glenda Testone]

Totally.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah. I have, I have one more don't, please. Yeah. Which is, I mean, I have a billion, but I have one more don't that I really want to make sure to say, which is people sometimes are overly focused on like achievement and money and their performance and like doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. And it's really easy in that energy to lose sight of the like, people and lives that motivated us in the first place. And hand in hand with that, there's this performativity, you know, like the feeling like you've got to always have something to show for yourself. You always have to have it together all the time. And obviously it's important to be a trustworthy and compelling representative of the organization. But if you're always performing, it takes a toll. I guess we were sort of touched on this before. And the thing is that people know it. You think that it's building people's confidence in you because look how much I can achieve. But it actually erodes trust and credibility.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes, I think that's so, so true. And I would highlight specifically from my experience, finding a way to be authentic and vulnerable with your board. If you are a nonprofit leader in an appropriate way, you have to Know the group that you're talking to. But the truth is they don't want to hear, everything's great, everything's fine, I achieved X, Y and Z. If that's not the complete picture, they are there because they want to help the organization. But I think people really forget that authenticity builds trust, and relationships move at the speed of trust. And if you are always the person who's, I got this grant, I did this thing, I met this goal, and you are not talking about any of the challenges or any of the setbacks. It really erodes that trust. It tells people. It telegraphs like, I am not showing up as a whole human being. I am painting a beautiful picture because that's what I believe you want. And that's not great for us. That's not great for organizations. That's not great for your board. So I completely concur, Mariam, as always.

[Maryam Habib]

I think it's really important.

[Glenda Testone]

As always, wisdom flows from you. I have found this myself. So those are some of the don'ts. Let's go. I always like to end on the bright side. So let's talk about some of the do's. What are some of the good skills and mechanisms that you've seen leaders employ that really are sustainable and supportive of their work and their organizations?

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, I'd love to give people, like a task list of just do this, this, this, this, and this, and you'll be great. Right. But they're a little earlier than that. I think one of the main do's is to recognize your role as a leader. Recognize that that role is a sacred opportunity to make a difference and being a good steward of that opportunity and that I learned about that concept from Laura Van der Nute Lipski, who wrote this beautiful, beautiful book called Trauma Stewardship. And I think when we see our role as a sacred opportunity, we treat it differently. Mm. Looks like a mindset thing. But I. The concrete piece around that for me, or one of the concrete pieces around that for me, is boundaries. And I know it's a buzzword, and I know people, like, tune out when they hear boundaries. Stay with me. Right? I don't mean the walls we erect to keep others or other things or people at a distance. Which is what I think a lot of people imagine when they hear the word boundaries. I mean, wise and loving discernment about how to use my resources and my gifts. Right. So I love the Adrienne Maree Brown quote about boundaries. Right. Your no makes the way for your yes. Boundaries create the container within which your yes Is authentic. Right. Boundaries, like being able to say no makes yes, a choice. That quote, that really changed how I think about boundaries. Right. Or it's a good capture of what boundaries can really do. We think of them as like a pushing away, but really they're protecting and containing the good stuff. Right. So having those kinds of boundaries between, like the boundaries that keep your energy concentrated and alive and real and your commitment and tending the fire of your purpose. And that, that stuff all for me is about that wise, loving discernment about how to use my gift.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes. Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

So big. Do.

[Glenda Testone]

Squared.

[Maryam Habib]

Do squared. Do to the 10th degree. Do it.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

That's like a, a foundational way of being with the work that I think is just super and strengthening. And then the other things are like more, more tasky. So if you're a tasky person, here comes your stuff.

[Glenda Testone]

Great.

[Maryam Habib]

Invest in people. I want you to invest in staff development and building leaders within your organization. It means there are people who know how to do what needs to be done. And it can feed into long term succession planning, which in turn can help you feel freer, less boxed in, less chained to your job, less. Oh my God. Well, how could I ever leave when we feel trapped like that? It's not a great energy when we feel like I'm going to do this for as long as it's the right thing for, for me and for the organization, for our community. And when it's time for me to leave, I'm going to be able to do so.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Maryam Habib]

If you don't think about that until the very end, it's really hard to leave when you want to. And then we overstay our capacity. So like sharing power, investing in staff development, investing in leaders in your organization, but then also collaborating with other folks, like other organizations, other leaders, having partners who are good at all the different things so you can refer to them or delegate to them. Like instead of trying to do everything yourself, you know, things that are like outside of your skill set or outside of the mission or the scope of you guys work and then the relationships individually, like having peers, having partners, having friends, where you're really investing yourself deeply and showing up for those relationships. That's like a big tasky thing. But it's a task thing.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, but so important. I mean, I often think about, if I did not have the resource of the support group that you ran for six years, that I was in for 14 years, I don't know that I would have lasted as long as I did. And so many nonprofit leaders out There feel like I don't have that. And so many funders feel like, well, that's fluff. That's like a nice to have. That's not something staff professional development, like community building, like that is not often prioritized and funded. So I just, just a note. And anytime any funder acknowledged that, like I remember early on there was a foundation that had a self care day for the leaders that it funded. And it was like a mini massage and I just come and have a drink and, and relax and I was like, this is very unusual. This is very unusual. I can only think of one time actually that that happened. But it is really important. It helps everybody go on doing what they're doing. And I just think it doesn't get enough attention or support. So just a small plug. I'm going to get off my soapbox. I'm going to turn the mic back to you.

[Maryam Habib]

Yeah, no, I think that ties into the last do that I would say, which is that do the basics of self care, you know, if you can do them. If I drink a glass of water when I'm exhausted, is it going to help me? No. But if I pay attention to my body on a regular basis and prioritize taking care of it, is that going to help me? Absolutely.

[Glenda Testone]

100.

[Maryam Habib]

No. It's hard to find the time. I know it's not the same thing that gets celebrated, but like you're demonstrating with that example, like it does make a difference. So paying attention to your body, mind, spirit and relationships, taking your lunch time, your vacation time, your sick time, your sabbatical time, like what we're supposed to do, you gotta take it. You gotta take it.

[Glenda Testone]

Okay, okay.

[Maryam Habib]

Gotta take it. That stuff. Actually those basics matter.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. And the, the way that I was eventually able to do that to the degree that I should have been doing it was by developing other people on my team to be able to handle things when I wasn't there. You know, if you are the only person there or you feel like you're the only person there, it's really hard to take vacation, to take a lunch to, and that's not sustainable for the organization. So something in reality really important to think about. So we're reaching the end of our conversation. Maryam, I'm sad because I feel like I could talk to you for another hour, but I'm wondering if you have just for those people that like tasks and lists and you know, any final parting words of wisdom, like three things for people that short attention span, three things that you want leaders to leave and remember and think about to further their own self sustainability.

[Maryam Habib]

It might be a little repetitive, but it's like a synthesis of what we've been talking about. Here are the three things I think really matter most with compassionate self awareness. I want you to do your inner work. If you don't do it, it's going to show up in your relationship to your job and your relationships to colleagues. You'll act it out on the organization and staff and others. It creates turmoil that is totally avoidable. So you got to deal with your history, your wounds, your emotions, your self regulation, all that good stuff. Do that. It's good for you, it's good for the work. Number two, don't go it alone. Build yourself a wide network of support, strong relationships with peers, trusted colleagues, a team that's really equipped to do their job, a coach, a therapist, whatever you need. Build that deep bench and then lean in on it. Don't try and do it alone. And then the last one is to really attend to your life beyond work and to your identity beyond the ED or CEO of your work. You know, the basics are the basics for a reason. Body, mind, spirit, relationships. Those are my basics. Yeah. Nourish your body with food, water, medicine, movement, and touch. That's. That's my list there. Attend to your mind with, like, reflective practices and self inquiry. How am I doing? What do I need? How are people experiencing me? You know, and continued learning and growth that, like, excites you. I think we need to regularly attend to our sense of, like, belief and meaning and beauty and take care of our relationships like our life depends on it.

[Glenda Testone]

Because it does.

[Maryam Habib]

Because it does. It does.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Maryam Habib]

And there's those relationships to yourself, to your loved ones, to your community. That's why we're there in the first place.

[Glenda Testone]

Totally.

[Maryam Habib]

Totally.

[Glenda Testone]

I feel like there are two things that have really accelerated me as a human being and the work that I have needed to do. One is being a nonprofit leader, and the other is being a parent. It has just taken those things. You know, I've been in therapy forever, so, like, I know what I need to work on. I know where it comes from. But when I first got into that role at the center, I remember I would. People would say things and I would get so defensive immediately. And I was. I used to have to say to myself all the time. It was like, I knew it. I had talked about it in therapy. But then when it came up in my body when someone said something, and I'm like, you are so wrong. What are you Talking about, you know, and I, you can't react that way. That's not productive. So I really, really had to work on it, not just theoretically, but in reality every day, all the time. So I'm grateful to the role for kind of accelerating that, that process in me. And that's a nice way to look at it. Like it made me, being a nonprofit leader made me a better person, no question. And it was better for the organization. It really helped my organization be better.

[Maryam Habib]

Just one thing to say about you, that I had really the privilege of watching you think through challenges with integrity and self awareness, you know, over and over for six years. So I know, I know from my experience now that what you're saying is true. These, these things do really shape us. And you rose to that challenge beautifully. That's one of the things, you know, it's like taking that as an opportunity rather than letting it like grind you down. You did that in an amazing way. I think that's evidence that it can be.

[Glenda Testone]

I appreciate that so much and I appreciate you so much, Maryam, and thank you. I had the privilege of getting to sit with you in person and virtually on a regular basis and just benefit from your care and your thoughtfulness and just all of you. And so I really appreciate the work that you do helping to sustain nonprofit leaders. And I really appreciate the work you do in the world as a human being trying to make it all better. So thank you for everything you do. Thank you for being on this podcast and sharing your wisdom with our listeners. And thank you to all of you listening out there. Keep doing the work. Do your inner work. Don't go it alone. Also, it's less fun. Do it with other people. Much more fun. Much more fun. Thank you, Maryam for your time.

[Maryam Habib]

Same, my friends. Same. Thank you so much. This has been so fun.

[Joan Gary]

Transform the way you lead your nonprofit with expert advice and a vibrant community at our nonprofit leadership lab, thousands of kindred spirits from all around the world find time saving resources, trainings from experts and a best in class team to help you. You get a good dose of me and a remarkable community. You will never feel alone with us. And we have the antidote to so many of the challenges you face. To learn more and request an invitation, head on over to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.

[Glenda Testone]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits. Like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com SL podcast We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.