← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep. 227: Nonprofits in the Chaos of 2025: What’s At Stake And How to Respond
00:50:18
The nonprofit sector is under attack. But, there’s hope. In this episode, Glennda Testone and I talk with Amol Sinha about the unique harms facing nonprofits and how we can all take action to protect our missions.
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- [00:00]
Joan Gary
As a nonprofit leader, you deserve tools and support that help you to thrive. That's why I feel it is important to introduce you to today's sponsor, DonorPerfect. Their All in one fundraising platform simplifies donor management, communications and reporting so you can focus on what you do best. Changing lives. Plus, their expert team is always on hand to cheer you on. Do you want a partner who truly gets you? Visit donorperfect.com Joan to learn more. A new administration in D.C. with executive orders galore. A president with open disdain for nonprofit leaders from Truth Social. President Trump has declared that nonprofits get away with spending all of their time and money on getting Donald Trump, adding, quote, we are watching these thugs and sleaze bags closely. This infuriates me. Freezing federal grant funding threats to challenge the tax exempt status of our organizations. Many of the communities our organizations serve are under attack. And for goodness sake, our own president named himself the board chair at the Kennedy center for the Arts.
- [01:14]
Glenda Rand
I think there's only one question to ask. What is actually happening here? What should we be worried about? How can we be more proactive? And most importantly, where are our points of leverage? Are we seeing success? And can we predict where all of this is headed? Today we'll talk with Amal Sinha, the executive director of the ACLU of New Jersey. He's been in this leadership spot since 2017, and he comes to this conversation with the deep knowledge and insights of the power of litigation and the power that rests in each of our states and frankly, each of our hands in our coaching work.
- [01:58]
Joan Gary
This year, Glenda and I work with clients to help them navigate their own internal anxiety and at the same time to show up as a confident, optimistic leader in their organization, with their boards and with the folks they serve. So what does that look like? Actually, I can tell you. The day after the election, I walked out of the door of my condo to walk my dog and to get some fresh air to try to make sense of what was going on in my head. And the first person I saw was my neighbor Amal. He was in a suit, about to head to the office, maybe the same suit he's actually wearing right now. But you can't see that. Amal, my neighbor, looked more than a bit worn. He accepted my hug and I asked him where he was headed. To the office, he said. I have a staff meeting first thing. It's time to remind everyone that the ACLU was made for times like these, that we have been here before and that we have been planning for well over a year and that the power to protect the nonprofit sector rests in the courts and in the states. I immediately offered to host a fundraiser for him. He gave me confidence. He gave me hope. And this is exactly the gift we hope to offer you.
- [03:14]
Glenda Rand
Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration, designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode of and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in. Amal Sinha is a nationally recognized civil rights leader who has dedicated his career to defending our rights and pursuing justice for all. As Executive Director of the ACLU of New Jersey, Amal guides the organization's integrated advocacy using litigation policy, public education, community organizing, and strategic communications to build a more equitable society. Since becoming the ACLU NJ's head in 2017, Amal has driven the organization's expansion, more than doubling its team and growing in its capacity to take on the most important issues transforming New Jersey's civil rights landscape. During Amal's tenure, the ACLU NJ has appeared before the New Jersey Supreme Court more times than any other non governmental party, deepening community partnerships across the state and centered the experience of directly impacted communities. In 2024, Amal was elected by fellow ACLU state leaders to serve as the Chairman of the ACLU's National Executive Director Council. He lives here in New Jersey with me and with Joan and Joan. I think he's your neighbor.
- [05:28]
Joan Gary
Yes. He doesn't live with us. Let me just be really clear about that. We all live separately, but he is my neighbor, as I stated earlier here in New Jersey and lives here with his wife and really pretty adorable daughter Amal. Welcome. Thank you for your work and for spending time today sitting in front of a microphone sharing your insights with our listeners.
- [05:55]
Amal Sinha
Thank you so much for having me. Joan and Glenda, let me just say I am wearing a different suit, wearing one of my winter suits which has a thicker, thicker wool. When I saw you after election day, but now I'm wearing one of my springtime suits.
- [06:08]
Joan Gary
Can I just say, yeah, I can't believe that you can remember what you were wearing the day after election day.
- [06:16]
Glenda Rand
I barely remember what I did. Yep, it was all A blur. As important as the soup conversation is, I thought we would maybe start with the most important question, which is, how are you doing, Amal and your staff? I'm sure our listeners. I know. I am curious to know how it all feels in this moment right now.
- [06:39]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, thank you for that question. Let me just say that I've never been more proud to be a part of the aclu and I've never been prouder to be a New Jerseyan right now. Personally, I feel a deep sense of purpose right now and it's reassuring. I'm incredibly proud to lead a team of some of the best civil rights advocates in the state and perhaps in the country and be a part of this nationwide organization that is just essential to the moment. Our team in New Jersey is and across the country is diverse. Right. And in many instances, our folks are directly impacted by some of the issues that we work on, including some of the issues that the Trump administration is trying to attack.
- [07:22]
Joan Gary
Right.
- [07:22]
Amal Sinha
And so some of us personally feel the harm of the administration's actions. And so we have to take steps to protect our own team, including figuring out how it is that we appear in public, thinking about physical and cybersecurity and the like. And many of us have public facing roles and we don't believe in making ourselves invisible to the communities that we serve. And so to some degree, we serve as the armor and the shield. Right. We have to be out there front facing because sometimes we are the ones to absorb the blow. And we have the privilege, though, to be able to spend our days at this wonderful multi issue, multi tactic organization that gets to do something about the onslaught of injustice that we're experiencing. And that's to me, powerful if I can.
- [08:12]
Joan Gary
You used a word that I think is really important and I'm trying with my own clients to help them balance the enormity of the task and responsibility with the privilege that comes with it, with the ability that you have uniquely to be on the field doing the work and that sense of purpose that comes with that. And so I just wanted to just amplify that. I also, going back to your comment about your team, remind me, Amal, have you removed names of board and staff members off the ACLU NJ website? Because I know a lot of organizations have done that and there's probably a whole lot of mixed feelings about that. Right?
- [09:04]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, look, we've done it. There are several ACLU affiliates. I can't speak for all of them, but I believe several have as well. And part of the reason is that we were several of us were receiving some unwanted contacts. And I won't get into all of it, but we made the decision that it was necessary to take this step for right now. We may revisit that decision in the future, but for now, I think it's the right approach.
- [09:27]
Joan Gary
Yeah. And I just, for me, that tension of, I am so proud to work here, I want everyone to know this is what I do. And knowing that's actually potentially a risky thing to do. We're living with all kinds of multiple tensions. So let's start with the ACLU and its strategies. And I know that our listeners are interested in understanding how you're approaching 2025. What's making you proud of the work of the ACLU even at this early point in the new administration? And perhaps a big caveat for everybody listening, that regardless of whether we send this podcast live tomorrow or a month from now, this is an ever changing landscape. So how are you approaching 2025 and what's making you proud?
- [10:18]
Amal Sinha
Look, I'm very proud about how prepared our organization was to take action starting day one of this administration. But let me circle back to that in a second and take us back to the first Trump administration for a minute. During that time, the ACLU filed more than 430 legal actions against the Trump administration. It was more than any other president in our 105 year history. So we knew the scale at which we were capable of operating at that time. And let me just say that we were prepared then, but we were nowhere as ready or as strategic or as professionalized or as connected as we are now. And so we were operating at a different level. And now we are ready to go to do as much or more if necessary. For about a year prior to this election, the 2024 election, the nationwide organization, which includes the national organization and all 54 affiliates of ACLU, we engaged in scenario planning so that every affiliate in every state could figure out what the threats and opportunities could emerge as a result of the election. Our national organization produced some memos on the issues we would confront in either a Harris or a Trump presidency. And at the state level, we identified both the reactive stuff that we would have to do and the proactive steps we'd take to defend and expand civil rights and liberties. And that's why we were ready. We Knew from the first Trump term, from reading Project 2025, from the campaign trail, that, for instance, attacking immigrants was going to be priority number one for this administration. And we prepared for that. And that's why within, I think 90 minutes of his first executive order that attempted to end birthright citizenship. We filed our first lawsuit against the administration. And since then, we filed lawsuit after lawsuit. I think we're up to 20 now. And so I guess what I'm most proud of is that we were ready and that we were able to pivot from preparation to action starting on day one. And let me say, look, I know that there's a lot of fear and despair right now, and the ACLU filing lawsuits is one part of the ecosystem here, and it doesn't discount the harm that people are experiencing. I know we're taking care of the issues that we are designed to address. And. And it's not the entirety of the issue that the entire set of issues that the Trump administration is going after and that fear and despair is understandable. But as I've said before, and I say frequently to my team, the antidotes to the fear and despair that people are experiencing include preparation, community, and action. And that's what the ACLU brings to the table. So I'm proud and I'm grateful for our clarity of purpose. We know what to do and how to do it. We're not in a moment where we're searching for a mission right now, and we're not here to just admire the problem or observe the atrocities. We're here to take action. And I'm grateful and proud that we were able to do starting on January 20th.
- [13:46]
Glenda Rand
Well, Amal, as an American and as a New Jerseyan, I think this is the first time I've ever called myself that. I'm originally from New York, so this really goes against everything in my being. But I do live here and have for some time, I am really proud and grateful for the preparation that clearly the ACLU has gone through, because every time I hear something in the news going on that is challenging what seems to me to be the illegal actions of the Trump administration, the ACLU has a hand in it. So thank you for that. It does make me feel better. Despite the fear and anxiety, Joan and I have both spent. I've spent all of my career, and Joan has spent the bulk of her career in the nonprofit sector. And I think when Trump took office, this time, seeing the focus on the nonprofit sector and really witnessing, which we do every day in the nonprofit leadership lab, the unique harm that is coming to the nonprofit sector that has been different than the first time around. And I wonder if, for folks, I'm sure our listeners have some sense of what this is, but can you talk us through that unique Harm and what's uniquely happening to folks that are running those organizations.
- [15:16]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, as all of the listeners of this podcast know, the nonprofit sector is wide ranging and diverse.
- [15:25]
Joan Gary
Yep.
- [15:25]
Amal Sinha
It includes. I don't need to reiterate it, but I will. It includes charities and food banks and service providers and advocacy organizations like mine and museums and theaters and arts organizations and philanthropies and hospitals and universities and more. Each part of the sector faces different risks, and there are what I'll call both actual harms and perceived or anticipated harms. The actual harms that we're seeing and hearing about include things like weaponizing grant funding from the federal government, which the government is doing in many different ways. Colombia losing $400 million, or arts organizations having to comply with executive orders to receive funding from the National Endowment for the Arts. We're suing about that, too, by the way. It includes these very real attempts to go after nonprofit tax status for certain types of organizations. And these are risks that in some instances are and can be existential to the organizations that we're talking about. The Trump administration has an expectation that if you're going to seek federal funding, you better get in line with the Trump worldview. And that includes being anti dei, anti transgender, being anti racial justice, and anti immigrant. And then there are those what I mentioned as perceived or anticipated harms. Lots of organizations are engaging in what I'm calling anticipatory compliance. They are complying with what they expect to happen as a result of the signals that the Trump administration is putting out through executive orders and other actions and rhetoric. And this includes things like organizations scrubbing their websites of anything related to race or dei or changing or ending certain programs or not funding certain types of organizations because of the risk of being associated with them. And so I understand the desire to shield against liability and to protect your organization's. And it may in many cases be the best course of action for an organization, but in some cases, it might be unnecessary. If I had to describe the situation that we're in right now, I'd probably use the words confusion and uncertainty. And I think that's intentional. I think that's the point. They want people to be afraid. They want organizations to be afraid and comply with things that they are uncertain about and take the most restrictive interpretation of those things in order to align with the way the Trump administration sees the world.
- [18:05]
Joan Gary
Absolutely. I think that we had an expert inside the village of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab who said something I thought was really aligned with. What you said is don't do something until you're told not to do it. There may be reasons to, but that if your board puts a lot of heat on you because it's, it feels risky not to take DEI materials off your website at this moment in time, there isn't a mandate to do am I, do I have that right?
- [18:37]
Amal Sinha
Amal, you're absolutely right for most entities out there. And it reminds me of one of the lessons from the book on tyranny, which is don't obey in advance. And we're seeing many organizations, and in the private sector as well, and perhaps more so in the private sector, retreat and cower to the pressure that the administration is putting on on them. And we're seeing an attack not just on the nonprofit sector. We're seeing it on corporations. We're seeing it on at law firms. Right. Where Trump is actually going after and retaliating against law firms and their clients if they don't align with him. And there's never been a moment where a law firm had to pledge an ideology. Right. Like law firms historically have been able to walk and chew gum at the same time. You represent the client's interests. But now it seems like the Trump administration expects you to be loyal to them in order to remain in business. So it's a scary time.
- [19:38]
Joan Gary
Yeah. A couple of specific questions I think nonprofit leaders have. HR9495 was something that hit the news pretty early on and I think there's a lot of confusion about it. And so would you take a minute and clarify what it is and what it's not?
- [19:56]
Amal Sinha
Yeah. Yeah. So HR9495 was something that was circulating over the past year, thankfully. Let me just be clear up front. It has not passed into law. It passed the House, but not the Senate. And there may be versions of it that reemerge in the future. So it's not a done deal, but it sort so far is not law. So it was a bill that was being considered by Congress that would basically give the Secretary of the treasury unilateral power to determine that an organization is materially supporting terrorism and impose consequences, including ending that organization's tax exempt status. So they could withdraw your 501C3 status without any process, just by the Secretary of Treasury saying that you are supporting terrorism.
- [20:47]
Glenda Rand
Yeah. And I think the, I feel like most people hear the word terrorism and it sounds like a very clear cut thing to define, but we know that the word terrorism can be political. You know, George W. Bush tackled this issue post 9 11. So I think the fear in the nonprofit sector. And I wonder if you agree with this, Amal, is that could be defined as any, anything that doesn't go along with the president's worldview.
- [21:17]
Joan Gary
And that's different from Amal. What George Bush meant with, with the exact, I think it was an executive order that he signed post 9 11, which was, and as I also understand it, more restrictive. Right. Than what is being bandied about with HR9495. But I, so I wonder, I just echo Glenda's question is I think George Bush meant something quite restrictive when he talked about terrorism. I'm not sure the same thing is true today.
- [21:50]
Amal Sinha
So you're talking about two different things. One is the definition of the word and the other is the legal infrastructure that's already out there. Right. First of all, on the definition of the word, let me just say I agree with you that we're worried that it could be used to describe anything, as you said, Glenda, that this administration doesn't like anything outside of Trump's ideology. And it could include things like, you know, environmental organizations or abortion providers or racial justice organizations. But I'll also add on the legal infrastructure question, including the post 911 era, which, by the way, we sued a lot during the post 911 era and some instances, we're still fighting those battles. But material support to terrorism is already illegal. No one is saying that. No one is saying that the government doesn't have to have the authority to go after organizations if they are actually supporting terrorism. It's not like there's, it's not like there are insufficient laws out there to punish bad actors. This bill was just a way to get organizations to stop dissenting from the administration and to short circuit due process and harm our sector. But I want to flag that, reiterate again, that bill is not law. And, and, and we'll see if it rears its ugly head again. But there are some executive actions that the Trump administration has taken that I think people should be concerned about. And these have flown under the radar a little bit. And I want to just want to surface them here, please. Yeah, there were two executive actions a couple of weeks ago, one that had to do with lawsuits. And so what Trump said was that there's this rule of civil procedure in federal courts that he said that he was going to utilize to demand that anytime an organization wants to sue the Trump administration to get an injunction to stop them from doing something, they have to make sure that they can demonstrate that they're able to pay legal fees to the government for their expenses if the government ultimately prevails. So that means that if an organization like the ACLU or some other organization out there decides to sue the government, they're going to try to make sure the court demands that organization demonstrate a bond or money in the bank to be able to pay the government the legal fees that they would reasonably charge if they win on appeal, if the government wins on appeal. It's a big departure from the way we traditionally operate, and I think is intended to chill organizations from actually suing the government, because organizations may be thinking twice before they sue. And then there was another executive action where Trump was saying that he would direct the Department of Education to rewrite rules around public service loan forgiveness so that certain types of employers or employees of certain types of organizations would no longer be eligible. And he used the big word. He said, if these organizations are engaged in improper activities, they will no longer be eligible. And some of those improper activities, and I'm using air quotes here, I know we're on a podcast, some of those improper activities include things like representing the rights of undocumented people. And it brought up the words material support to terrorism, again, a la HR9495. And so what I'm seeing here is this ether or mix of policies and executive actions that would attack nonprofit organizations and employees of nonprofit organizations. And I think the theory here that we should all take to heart is that when the Trump administration decides that it probably can't win on the merits of a lawsuit, what they're doing is trying to change the rules of the game, so they're making it harder to sue, or they're trying to deplete our workforce. And that's something that is, I think, something that needs to be surfaced in nonprofit circles and to and for organizations to think about how it is that they are preparing in light of these developments.
- [26:12]
Glenda Rand
Yeah, I really appreciate that, Amal. And for the listeners, you cannot see our faces, but I promise you, they are appalled and aghast at these things. It's almost like a pay to play for access to legal remedies. It's so challenging. But it is important that our listeners know what's going on. And I think it's important also that we look, I not a lawyer. Joan's not a lawyer. We all have a role to play. We all have something that we can do in this moment. And one of the things you mentioned when we talked to you earlier, Amal, is that you and the ACLU actually believe that there is tremendous power in the States Power to push back and so help our listeners understand this. And maybe if you have a real life example to bring that to life, that would be really helpful. I think everybody's okay, I see it. Not everybody. Many people are like, okay, I see it. I agree. What, what, what do I do?
- [27:12]
Amal Sinha
We do where.
- [27:13]
Joan Gary
And this is about where the points of leverage are. And you, Yes, I have heard you very compellingly talk about the leverage that the states have.
- [27:22]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, look, I'm reminded of a quote by Justice William Brennan, who's from Jersey, by the way. He, he said, yeah, he actually said this in an address to the New Jersey State Bar Association. He said that state courts and state constitutions are the guardians of individual rights. And he, what he meant by that is that the federal constitution provides the floor and not the ceiling of what's possible. And state courts and state constitutions can take a more expansive view of constitutional rights than federal courts can. And we see this in so many circumstances throughout our history where states have actually led the charge in expanding rights. I'm thinking about same sex marriage and I'm thinking about, in a post Roe world, the actions that some states are taking to protect abortion rights in their state constitutions. Of course, there are other states that are criminalizing abortion. It can go in a multitude of directions. And one of the greatest strengths of the ACLU is that we're truly a nationwide organization. So we have offices in every single state and D.C. and Puerto Rico, and we have boots on the ground covering every part of this country. So together, as a nationwide organization, we've identified which states are hostile to civil liberties, which states are civil rights and liberties battlegrounds, and which states are on the vanguard. Right. And we're calling these states the firewall states. These are the states like New Jersey, where we can actually forge a real firewall for freedom and protect our residents from some of the injustices of the federal administration. Your question was about an example to bring it to life. There are several from right here in New Jersey, where we've done a lot over the past several years. We are, I think, one of the most welcoming states for immigrants. We have one of the most expansive codifications and strongest protections of abortion rights in the country. Driver's licenses for all, regardless of immigration status. We have strong health care coverage for families. We have one of the best environmental laws in the nation. We have one of the lowest rates of incarceration in the country based on work that the ACLU and our partners led to reduce our prison population. But of course, there's more to do. Our work isn't finished. We can further protect our immigrant communities by passing something called the Immigrant Trust act, which would create a firewall between state agencies and federal immigration enforcement. We can expand our democracy by passing something called the John Lewis Voter Empowerment act, which would allow for which would put guardrails up to make sure that everybody who is eligible has the right to vote and that the right to vote is not infringed. New Jersey can be the strongest firewall for freedom in the country, and right now is the moment to do it. So I'm hoping that New Jersey can really be the bellwether, the leader of leaders, the state that actually demonstrates what it means to protect your residents in a time when the federal government is literally attacking us. And so it's important for New Jersey to step up right now.
- [30:47]
Joan Gary
So we have been talking with Amal Sinha, who is the executive director of the ACLU of New Jersey, and we are lucky indeed to have him here with us. And those of us who live in the state of New Jersey, like Glenda and me and Amal, are lucky to have the ACLU of New Jersey advocating with and for us. Amal's been in his seat since 2017 and been responsible in many ways for transforming New Jersey's civil rights landscape. And I think it's a big deal when that many affiliates of the ACLU say the guy we want is the chair of the National Executive Director Council. Is this guy a mal Sinha? I think that's a big deal. We've been talking about intentional chaos, about courts and about states, about maximum points of leverage. And when we come back, what we'd like to focus in on is what nonprofit organizations can do, what they should do, what they shouldn't do. So stay with us and we will be right back. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to up level your skills, and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn more@nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. So we're back. So let's focus a little bit on what nonprofits could do, right? Your observations and insights. What actions should nonprofits be taking? I've definitely heard some folks talking about getting their house in Order to ensure that organizations are immune from compliance challenges, for example. Agree on that. And what else might you add to the list?
- [32:46]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I think it's just good common sense practice. Like, it's not just about this moment that we're in. It's about proper nonprofit governance and hygiene. Every couple of days I see an article about the things that nonprofits should do to protect themselves. And they include things. They all say the same thing, right? And they include things like, make sure you're compliant with the laws that regulate your organization. Practice good financial responsibility and oversight, including getting a clean audit if you can, track your time and expenses, if you do any sort of lobbying, or if you get involved in elections in any way, ensure you're adhering to your own internal bylaws when it comes to board governance and your board election or appointment processes are clean and followed. These are all good things to do in any administration. And it's good things to do outside of the realm of politics. It's just proper caretaking of your organization. Another thing to do is that organizations may want to consider is to make contingency plans if your federal funding gets cut, understand how that impacts your program. And I think there's a difference between an organization who gets 10% of their funding from federal sources and an organization gets 70% of their funding from federal sources. It's perhaps harder to fill the gap for the latter organization, but I think it's important for organizations to think about alternatives through philanthropy or through private donors to fill the gap. And I guess lastly, I would say that nonprofits and their leaders should surround themselves in community. I don't mean that in the just basic community is good for you sense. I certainly do. But I also mean that to say that information sharing and understanding best practices from other organizations is sometimes the best way to figure out what practices will work for you. And I've learned so much from being a part of cohorts and spaces where I can share ideas with other nonprofit leaders. Every time I talk to a leader of any sort, really, whether it's nonprofit or private sector, I take away something and I learn something. And so I think now more than ever, we need to lean on one another for care, for joy, for laughter, for commiseration, but also for the practical advice and the things that may save the day for our organizations. Should stuff hit the fan?
- [35:27]
Joan Gary
Glenda Rand, an LGBT community center in New York and knows more than a thing or two about the power of community.
- [35:36]
Glenda Rand
Yeah, I was going to say always important but it feels just like critical right now. And that leads really nicely into my next question. Joe was going to be about. You started to talk, Amal, about what are the things nonprofits should not be doing? And I want to preface this by saying, you know, I think one of the things that a lot of nonprofit boards tend to do well is risk assessment, sometimes to a fault. And you mentioned when I was at the LGBT center in New York, which is coincidentally suing the Trump administration currently, we really couldn't, you can't take LGBT out of the name LGBT Community Center. So there was no complying in advance. We couldn't hide who we were at that time. And you said previously that organization should not do that, which I wholeheartedly agree with. What else should organizations or boards who tend to be concerned about the risks and sometimes want to go to the most risk averse, least risky place, what else should they not be doing too quickly right now?
- [36:48]
Amal Sinha
Yeah, that's a great question. I think some of the things include, first of all, you said that board are good at risk assessment. I would say that nonprofits should not change the way they operate or change their mission without a proper risk assessment about their particular circumstances like specified to them. And this may be a board engaging a law firm or a risk assessor of some sort to make that analysis for you where they are going threat by threat to executive order by executive order, to understand the landscape of things that may impact you. And then seeing what's already happened, what are the practical implications, I can understand why universities, for instance, maybe have their backs up a little bit because of what's happening to Colombia. That's a real life implication that is happening there. And I would say universities, if you're listening, defenders academic freedom and be out there and be outspoken around it. But, but I can understand some of the concerns that folks may be experiencing right now. And as I said, there's a, there's, there are different levels of nonprofit organizations that are in the strike zone for the Trump administration and, and it should be a part of the risk assessment to understand where you may fall in the strike zone and understand whether your funding is at risk and whether that means that you are, whether that's an existential threat for you or whether it's a minor inconvenience for you. And those are all things that a risk assessment should be able to provide. Another thing that I would say is related to the comment that I made earlier about community. Don't go it alone. There is no pride or nobility in doing things alone. We at the ACLU don't do any of our work alone. So much of it is done with partners and in community. And even when we are thinking about protecting our organization, we're thinking about it in community and sharing information and resources as we go. So those are some things that I would say that organizations should do and not do. I guess another thing is, and I don't think many organizations do this, and nonprofit leaders are certainly not doing this too much. But one fear I have oftentimes is what happens if a non profit leader underestimates a risk or perhaps hides a threat or somehow diminishes the existence of a threat. So what I mean to say is basically organizational heads should be upfront and frank and perhaps over communicative with their boards and with their colleagues so that they can engage in thought partnership about how to address a threat rather than thinking, oh, that's never going to impact us anyways. So of course there's a balance here because you don't want to be overly alarmist and change the way you do things, but also you don't want to understate the harm or the risk. And it's up to each nonprofit organization to talk to their lawyers or general counsel or board leaders and make a calculated decision for themselves about what actions and steps they should take.
- [40:00]
Joan Gary
Just a couple things that came to mind while you were talking. First, I'll start with over communicating and then say that don't assume that your board and your stakeholders are really attending to the really good work you're doing. And they need to hear that your organization is out there working with and for them. And those are points of light and hope for people. And they also provide a certain kind of an invitation to people to get in the game. The second thing that I think there's a distinction between risk assessment and risk averse. And I think that a risk assessment, absolutely risk averse is a challenge for our sector. I see it all the time. Boards think that they exist to make sure nothing goes wrong. Let's be really honest, there's a lot that could be going wrong this year. And the last thing, and I just had a client this morning where I said this, don't, here's something not to do. Don't just focus on scenario planning that results in expense reductions. Be innovative, creative, try new things. Push your board to enable you to do that because it has a vast array of benefits. A, it might work. B, the process of being bold and innovative and thinking about these new things, but motivates people and it actually excites donors and stakeholders. So those are some of the other things, I think, in answer to the question that Glenda asked that I have found myself talking with clients about, there is no question that innovation motivates. And so something else for, I think, for everybody to think about.
- [42:07]
Amal Sinha
Absolutely.
- [42:08]
Glenda Rand
I feel like as humans and certainly as nonprofit leaders, the exemplification of humanity, sometimes we worry so much about what could go wrong, and we don't spend nearly enough time thinking about what could go right and planning for that. And I have to say, the first time we talked to you, Amal, that was one of the things that struck me, was that you really did provide a lot of tools and a lot of hope. And we need that right now. We need to think about what can. I don't know if you remember it exactly, Joan, in the prep call, when Amal said, this moment requires something from each of us in the nonprofit sector. And I heard that in a way that really affirmed what I believe about the nonprofit sector, which is that it's a movement.
- [43:00]
Joan Gary
Yeah.
- [43:00]
Glenda Rand
That it takes all of us to build this just and civil society. Do you remember that?
- [43:06]
Joan Gary
Yeah, I do remember it, and I'm not gonna put words in Amal's mouth, but you said some really. Some things. I really want people to leave feeling about the issues of that this moment requires things from all of us, and you talked through some of those things. I'm hoping you remember a couple of them, because they were really good.
- [43:29]
Amal Sinha
Thank you. I think I was smarter than. So whenever that was. No, I do have a thought. And look, first of all, let me just say again that the nonprofit sector is diverse. It's not a monolith. There are people all across the ideological spectrum that work in nonprofit organizations. But there's got to be more that unites us than just our tax status or our sources of funding. Right. We have to have. We're in this work because we believe in some common values. And among those things include, I hope, include equality and justice for all. I think everybody that works at a nonprofit organization, for the most part, believes in helping people. We believe that charity cannot replace failed government policy. We believe in policy that lifts people up and helps helps the least among us. And I think everybody that works in nonprofits. I've heard more nonprofit leaders say this than in any other sector. They want to work themselves out of a job. They want to make sure that the problem that they are trying to address is solved. I want to make sure that civil rights and liberties are defended and expanded and we all have this unrelenting hope for our future, that someday the vision that we have for the world will be seen, it will come to fruition. It will materialize. And so, yeah, there is a role for every one of us. Philanthropy has to step up right now. I know there are philanthropic leaders that agree with me that are out there right now doing whatever they can, and I'm grateful to be in partnership with many philanthropies that are really stepping up and saying, we got you, and that's important. I see education organizations and institutions and leaders stepping up right now. For instance, I just read a piece from Princeton University's president, Chris Eisgruber, who wrote a piece in the Atlantic about the need to defend academic freedom. And that's a bold and courageous thing for somebody in that role to be writing right now in light of what's happening at Columbia. We need churches and food banks and churches and other religious institutions and schools to step up right now because, as we saw from the Trump administration, they have rescinded what was called the Sensitive Locations Memo, which basically protected certain locations from immigration enforcement. So. So they wouldn't do raids in places like religious institutions or schools or hospitals or shelters. Now those places may be at risk, and so we need to make sure that they're in the ecosystem of organizations that we're talking to on a regular basis when it comes to immigrants rights. The thinking that I have around one of us versus all of us is that if they are choosing to go after one organization or one institution, that's. That's one thing. But what the Trump administration and those who support him are doing is going after so many different facets of the nonprofit sector. And that, to me, is scary in one way, but empowering in another. And it's empowering because there are so many of us. The nonprofit sector is huge. There's so many of us that are now being impacted by this administration and the clients that we serve, the people that we advocate for, the communities that we are based in, are being harmed as a result of us being harmed. And I don't think we're going to stand for that.
- [47:00]
Glenda Rand
Hell, no.
- [47:02]
Joan Gary
No. And I don't. I think we should leave it right there. I think we promised at the beginning of this podcast that we would provide you with some insights and offer you some hope. And I hope that we have done. I feel like I have both of those things. Glenda is nodding her head and with gratitude. Amal, thank you for your work. Thank you for the work of your team. Please Share that with us. Share that with them from all of us. And we look forward to hearing about your work through the course of the year. And we look forward to being in a position where we can help to amplify the good stories that are happening, because I actually believe that our media doesn't have any particular real interest in the good news and in these good stories and in marketing what is happening. And that is actually what's going to help us all get through this. So, Amal, thanks so much for taking time from a busy day.
- [48:05]
Amal Sinha
Thank you so much for having me. We're in it together and I'm grateful for both of you.
- [48:09]
Joan Gary
We are in it together. Glenda, thank you. I think this was a great conversation.
- [48:15]
Glenda Rand
Excellent, Excellent. Really appreciate it. Amal. Our nonprofit leaders are usually so busy focusing on their own organization. I think some of the broader picture items that you brought into the conversation are going to be really helpful. And I just want to underscore that community piece. It's not. It's scary out there. It's not good. They're flooding the zone, so to speak, using Parkwoods. But we can flood the zone, too. We have people, too. There are a lot of us. We are a community. We are strong. And we can get loud.
- [48:48]
Joan Gary
Yeah.
- [48:49]
Amal Sinha
So, yeah, I hope that was okay and it met your needs for this podcast.
- [48:53]
Joan Gary
Absolutely.
- [48:55]
Amal Sinha
We covered a lot.
- [48:56]
Joan Gary
Yeah, I think we did cover love. And for all of you who are listening, I hope you found this really valuable. Hope it gave you some good food for thought, some ways to think about how you operate, some ways to think about how you interact with your board and your stakeholders, with the other sector leaders in your community. And until we meet again, I hope you take extremely good care of yourselves and we'll see you next time.
- [49:26]
Glenda Rand
Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast we think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.