Ep 231: Improving the Nonprofit Talent Search (with Omar Lopez)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 231 - Improving the Nonprofit Talent Search

Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Host: Joan Garry
Guest: Omar Lopez, Deputy Mayor of Ossining, New York & Principal at DRG Talent
Release Date: June 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 231 of "Nonprofits Are Messy," host Joan Garry welcomes Omar Lopez, a multifaceted professional balancing roles as the Deputy Mayor of Ossining, New York, and a principal at DRG Talent—a firm dedicated to supporting nonprofits with their talent needs. The conversation delves deep into the challenges nonprofits face in recruitment, the importance of clarity in job descriptions, effective marketing strategies, addressing scarcity mindsets, and understanding the unique perspectives of Gen Z employees entering the nonprofit sector.

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Omar Lopez's Journey and Philosophy

Omar begins by sharing his personal journey, highlighting a pivotal shift in his approach to career goals.
Quote:
"When I turned around 30, the problem was the next thing wasn't clear. I wasn't getting a lot of energy from just kind of moving up ever upward in the professional world." [03:52]

He emphasizes the importance of aligning one's work with personal life goals, seeking roles that offer both impact and flexibility. This philosophy led him to executive search, where he can support nonprofits nationally while maintaining meaningful local relationships through his role in Ossining.

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The Broken Recruitment System in Nonprofits

Omar asserts that the nonprofit recruitment system is fundamentally broken, a sentiment echoed by many in the sector.
Quote:
"I've never met a single person that says, this is working awesome. We should change nothing." [12:40]

Key Issues Identified:

1. Lack of Clarity: Both job seekers and hiring organizations often lack a clear understanding of what they seek, leading to mismatched applications and hires.

2. Broken Process: The recruitment process can be emotionally taxing for candidates due to prolonged periods of uncertainty and lack of feedback. For organizations, unclear processes can lead to delays and loss of top candidates.

3. Ineffective Marketing: Nonprofits frequently fail to effectively market their opportunities, not fully conveying the impact and purpose behind roles, which is crucial for attracting mission-driven individuals.

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Improving Clarity in Recruitment

Omar stresses the necessity of clarity from both the organization's and the candidate's perspectives.

Quote:
"When hiring manager, the organization, the search committee, they could be doing themselves a favor by crafting a job description that is going to both attract and repel. You want a job description that's going to make the right person say, yes, that's my job." [18:05]

Recommendations:

• Define Objectives Clearly: Understand and articulate what the organization truly needs from the role.
• Detailed Job Descriptions: Move beyond generic statements to describe specific impacts and responsibilities.
• Process Transparency: Clearly outline the recruitment timeline and steps to manage candidate expectations.

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Effective Marketing for Nonprofit Roles

Joan and Omar discuss the importance of marketing roles in a way that resonates with ideal candidates by connecting job responsibilities to the organization's mission and impact.

Quote:
"By raising, helping to raise money for this organization, you're going to be able to help 500 families access housing that didn't have access to it before." [27:06]

Strategies:

• Connect the Dots: Link job responsibilities directly to tangible outcomes and mission-driven impact.
• Use Relatable Language: Craft job postings that speak to candidates' values and aspirations, making roles more appealing.
• Highlight Unique Selling Points: Showcase what sets the organization apart, beyond standard mission statements.

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Addressing the Scarcity Mindset in Nonprofits

The discussion shifts to the prevalent scarcity mindset within nonprofits, particularly regarding limited resources like budget and time.

Quote:
"The opposite of scarcity is abundance. It's knowing, listen, it's a big world and there's a lot in it, and we're going to be able to find what we're looking for." [42:24]

Insights:

• Adopt an Abundance Mentality: Believe that the right talent is available and focus on strategies to attract them.
• Leverage External Support: Utilize search firms or delegate parts of the recruitment process to manage workload effectively.
• Competitive Compensation and Realistic Expectations: Ensure that compensation is benchmarked and reflective of the market to attract quality candidates.

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Embracing Gen Z in the Nonprofit Workforce

Omar sheds light on the characteristics of Gen Z employees, who prioritize meaning, purpose, and have different expectations around compensation and work-life balance.

Quote:
"Gen Z employees have experienced the pandemic in a particular way and that has influenced the way that they think about their lives and careers." [30:53]

Key Points:

• Purpose-Driven: Gen Z seeks roles that contribute to meaningful causes.
• Financial Awareness: They come with clear expectations regarding compensation, often requiring transparency in salary ranges.
• Adaptability to Technology: Being native to a digitally-driven world, Gen Z is comfortable with remote work and AI integration but still values mentorship and personal connections.

Recommendations for Nonprofits:

• Offer Clear Career Development: Provide mentorship and professional growth opportunities.
• Ensure Transparent Compensation: Clearly state salary ranges and benefits in job postings.
• Foster a Supportive Culture: Create environments that promote collaboration, inclusivity, and personal well-being.

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Leadership Searches and Common Pitfalls

As the conversation moves towards leadership recruitment, Omar identifies common mistakes organizations make during leadership searches.

Quote:
"The program starts with having that abundance mentality as opposed to scarcity." [42:24]

Top Mistakes:

1. Misaligned Compensation: Offering salaries below market rates without proper benchmarking.
2. Unclear Processes: Failing to define and communicate the recruitment timeline and steps.
3. Inadequate Involvement: Not involving the right stakeholders or relying too heavily on volunteer committees, leading to inconsistent candidate experiences.
4. Deprioritizing the Search: Allowing other responsibilities to overshadow the importance of the recruitment process, causing delays and disengagement.

Solutions:

• Benchmark Salaries: Use available data to ensure compensation is competitive.
• Structured Processes: Clearly outline the steps and timeline in job postings and during candidate interactions.
• Stakeholder Engagement: Involve multiple team members in the recruitment process to maintain momentum and provide diverse perspectives.

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Conclusion and Final Takeaways

Joan encapsulates the discussion by highlighting the critical areas of clarity, process, marketing, and mindset in improving nonprofit recruitment. She emphasizes the importance of intentionality in each hire to ensure long-term success and alignment with organizational goals.

Omar's Final Insight:
"Out of all the candidates that apply for any role, from executive director to the most junior role that you have, there's only one person that's getting the role. Most people that are engaging with you and in this process are not getting the role. And while we spend a lot of our time trying to figure out who's that one person going to be and how do we ensure that we find them and keep them, I would also encourage you to think about every other person that is not getting the role, because those are the people that then turn into board members, supporters, donors, and it's an infinite game." [52:00]

Key Takeaways:

• Intentional Hiring: Focus on making deliberate and informed hiring choices to build a strong, mission-aligned team.
• Candidate Experience: Treat every candidate interaction as an opportunity to build relationships and foster a positive perception of the organization.
• Continuous Improvement: Regularly assess and refine recruitment strategies to adapt to changing market dynamics and workforce expectations.

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Final Remarks

Joan concludes by encouraging listeners to apply the insights shared in the episode to enhance their recruitment processes, ultimately strengthening their organizations and amplifying their impact in the nonprofit sector.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges and solutions in nonprofit recruitment, blending strategic advice with practical examples to guide leaders in attracting and retaining the right talent. Omar Lopez's expertise provides valuable perspectives that can help nonprofits navigate the complexities of building effective and passionate teams.

Transcript

[Joan]

Today's guest has a lot going on. He lives in the world of social impact in some very interesting ways. First, I could tell you that he is the Deputy Mayor of Ossining, New York. In addition to being my brother's home for many years, its somewhat larger claim to fame is that it is the home of Sing Sing Prison. And if you have not seen the 2024 film of the same name with Colman Domingo, it was my favorite movie of this past year. So enough about Sing Sing Prison. We have a public servant here today and he wears another social impact hat. And that is where we find the sweet spot for today's conversation. He is a principal at DRG Talent and supports nonprofits through the full cycle of their talent needs. When I talk with nonprofit leaders and ask them to tell me what keeps them up at night, their list could keep me up at night. Because it's not a short list, especially in these times, but everyone's list to a person includes finding and retaining great talent. Open positions in a world where the needs are growing thwart an organization's ability to have maximum impact. Oh yeah, they are a key element of overwhelm and burnout. And if you could reduce just one more cause of that, you might just be able to hold onto good people. We'll spend some time talking about the top of the organization, but getting the right folks on your organization's bus at all levels is essential. And there are some universal fixes. It's time for some radical candor, some creativity, and some mighty good advice.

[Gary]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders open, overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in.

[Joan]

Omar Lopez is a principal at drg. He supports nonprofits through the full cycle of their talent needs. What that means is executive search, organizational design and alignment, transition planning, cultural assessment, and engagement. He's an expert in identifying talent in the social sector, specializing in organizations that work in criminal justice, education and the Hudson Valley of New York. He spent six years at Relay Graduate School of Education, where he served as the Director of Talent Acquisitions, leading a team that drove the annual recruitment of over 400 full and part time staff and faculty across the country. He started his career in the classroom teaching 9th and 11th grade at Williamsburg Charter High School and Community Partner Charter School. Born and raised in Brooklyn, Omar now lives in Ossining, Ossining, New York with his wife, two daughters and his Wheaton Terrier. He is active in local politics. Welcome, Deputy Mayor Omar Lopez.

[Omar Lopez]

Joan, a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Joan]

It's great to have you. So first of all, let's connect the dots. Executive search for deputy mayor of a town in Westchester with a population in the 30,000 range. Dad with two kids, Wheaton Terrier what is the common thread of these identities for you?

[Omar Lopez]

Well, here's the thing, Joan. Basically from When I was 10 years old until I was 30, I had a formula. And the formula worked. The formula was choose whatever the next goal is and adapt my life to meet that goal. That goal may be I need to pass this test, pass this class, I need to get into a college, get my first job, get a promotion, find the next job. The next step was always relatively clear. And so it was really a matter of adapting my life to be able to meet that goal. And I would do whatever it took in order to get there. And that worked for a while, okay. But when I turned around 30, the problem was the next thing wasn't clear. I wasn't getting a lot of energy from just kind of moving up ever upward in the professional world and just getting ever more senior roles. And so I spent a bunch of time kind of looking for what might be the thing, the answer to what is the right next step professionally. And what I learned was that I reached a point in my life where the formula flipped. Instead of choosing the goal and adapting my life to meet that goal, I it was about defining what kind of life do I want to live and then what kind of work can adapt to make that life possible. And for me, what was really important was when it came to my day job, finding work where I could be making a positive difference in the world, working with kind people, where I would have the resources to be able to do what I want to do, but also where I had the flexibility to have time for what would then be my growing family. At that point, I didn't have any kids, but I knew that we wanted to grow our family, to be able to have time for my friends and my health and to contribute to my community. And that's where I found Executive Search, an opportunity to work with a variety of kinds of clients Where I'm supporting them in this work that is really important that if we're successful, makes a huge difference in the world, but also that allows me the flexibility to do what I do. But this one job, you know, I'm working nationally with nonprofits from all across the country. And the nature of the work is we work together for three to six months and then we're done and we move to the next project. I also want to be able to have long standing years, long relationships with folks. And that's where the local impact, that getting into local government really came into play. That's why I ran for trustee and then deputy mayor here in the village of Ossining, in order to have place based relationships with folks. And that was really important to me. Being able to then also serve on boards and volunteer and do all these other things. Having a portfolio of things that scratch all my various itches and allow me to have the kind of life that matters to me is how I ended.

[Joan]

Up where I am scratching. The varying itches I like a lot. And it resonates for me because when I finished my tenure at GLAAD as an executive director, I came home to shepherd my kids through junior high and high school and I decided to make a whole bunch of different plays, right? To see that when I shipped them out, right. When I shipped them out, I'd have varying plays and I could see which one scratched a particular itch. And what I actually found was that they all scratched different itches and that the plays, if you'll excuse the pun, the plays were the thing. Right. And the one quick question I'll ask you is, with all of those things going on, have you been able to make the time for your family? Because someone could listen and say, well, you sound like you're doing about a bazillion things. Time for your kids. Feh.

[Omar Lopez]

Absolutely. It's to me a matter of priority. That is a top priority to me to be able to not just be there for the performances and the big things, but the drop offs and the pickups and the events that are happening in the school on a regular basis. And this work allows me to do that. What I would also say is that the makeup of my portfolio of events also kind of the world caught up to the way that I was thinking about this after the pandemic. So that I was really kind of moving in this direction. But it was somewhat against the grain and I was trying to have to kind of justify what I was doing to folks in a way that after the Pandemic people get it. People really started to take stock. In what place does work play in my life? How can I have the kind of work, including hybrid or fully remote work, that allows me to have a level of flexibility so that I can prioritize family or other things? And so I found myself in concert with, with the rest of the work world in a way that has really facilitated what I'm doing.

[Joan]

Yeah, it's interesting. So many people were introduced to Zoom during the pandemic, but I had been using Zoom for executive coaching for years. I mean, I have coached many people I have never met in person. And so developing relationships via Zoom was something I just already knew how to do. And so having a completely remote team did not strike me as outside the box thinking, you know, so very interesting. We are going to have a link on the show notes page to drg, the firm you work with. I wonder if you can. Cause I want to dig right into the sort of the issue of recruitment. Is there a sentence or two you can give me about what you think the secret sauce is of DRG Talent, the firm that you work for? We don't have to do all the four one, one. But like, what do you find is the secret sauce and why you actually. Why you picked them, why you love working there?

[Omar Lopez]

Absolutely. Have you ever been to a Michelin rated restaurant, Joan?

[Joan]

I have. My wife worked for the. My wife ran the Food Network for seven years. Omar. Wow.

[Omar Lopez]

I picked the right question.

[Joan]

I didn't know that you totally picked the right question. Yes. She's got a whole chapter about her in Ina Garten's new book, actually.

[Omar Lopez]

Yes. So sometimes when people think about the answer to that question, what does ERG do? It's kind of like, hey, like we all have to eat, right? And so you could grow your own food. You can go to the supermarket, get ingredients, cook your own food. But there's a reason why people also go to restaurants. There are special occasions, there are experiences. And what a restaurant, particularly Michelin rated restaurant, is able to do well is create an experience for you. One where from the moment you walk in, it's not just about what is the food that is ultimately served, but about the environment and about the way that you feel. It's a really holistic environment. It feels really thoughtful. That's what DRG does in search.

[Joan]

Yeah, sure.

[Omar Lopez]

We find candidates to fill roles functionally. That's what we do. Just like a Michelin star restaurant functionality feeds people. But it's so much more than that because over the last 40 years, we've learned an important lesson, which is the story doesn't start with the search. Oftentimes, the story starts way before and continues way after. So we've developed a suite of services and ways of supporting organizations that take account to that. That's succession planning, transition planning, executive coaching, compensation benchmarking, all that kind of work. And that all also supports the executive search work that we do.

[Joan]

So I hope I'm not outing Dara Clarfeld, who's the CEO at drg, but I had lunch with her many years ago, and I was just putting it out there to try to identify potential prospective clients. By the end of the lunch, Dara said, would you coach me? One of the few search firms you will find whose CEO is actually an ordained rabbi. And there's something really interesting about that. Not that I am encouraging those of you in Executive Search to go to rabbinical school, but it does seem to be one of Dara's superpowers. Okay. And probably has something to do with the values and culture DRG that make it unique and special. So that's enough of a commercial for drg. Now back to our regular programming. So I believe that you make the claim that. That the nonprofit sector has a broken recruitment system. Yes. I don't disagree with you. I would like you to dig into that. What's broken about it? Talk to me and let's chat about that.

[Omar Lopez]

Yeah, absolutely. So this is a claim that to me is self evident. You don't need to go far to find the ways in which it is broken. In fact, just ask anyone that has ever been involved in it. I've never met a single person that says, this is working awesome. We should change nothing. This is amazing. And the reasons are many, but they oftentimes really boil down to some simple principles. And one of the simple principles that they boil down to is clarity. Oftentimes, the job seekers, the candidates, are unclear about what they're looking for and why. And similarly, the hiring manager, the search committee, they're unclear about what they're looking for in a candidate. So you have people that don't know what they want looking for jobs from organizations that don't know what they're looking for. And so you end up with a lot of mixed messages and noise and issues that we try to get to. Well, what if I'm ghosted? Or what if the job description isn't quite right? But all of that really gets back to clarity. And so at the very beginning, when we first start a search, it's One of the first questions that I ask is, what are you looking for and why? And really start to unpack it. It's the same question, Joan, that I ask candidates that come to me looking for advice in their job search. What are you looking for and why? And we spend the majority of our conversation unpacking what that means. By getting to both of those clarity around what you're looking for as a candidate and as a hiring manager or a search committee, we can start to avoid the major issues that happen in this really broken recruitment system. And we can really get into the detail. But that's one of the first things that I point to.

[Joan]

I do believe that seekers are often unclear. Right. I also feel like, and this is at every level, right. We're not just talking about executive directors that they don't necessarily, when they read the job profile or the job description, it doesn't necessarily sing out to them as, oh, okay. Like, it doesn't help them provide any greater clarity for themselves where it could. Right. And I'll use as an example, we, you know, I have a team of 15, and we spent a lot of time rethinking about how we post post jobs and what we say about the job. And we have hired two or three people in the last couple of years who have said that. Then when they saw the job posting, they said, that's my job and isn't. Like, in some ways, isn't that what we're kind of looking for? Like, oh, that's my job.

[Omar Lopez]

Yes.

[Joan]

But in order for it to be my job, I need to actually know what I care about, what kind of fit, what kind of boss I want, what kind of this, what kind of that. Right. And then the description or the promotion of that also has to then speak to that more clearly.

[Omar Lopez]

Yes, no, that's exactly right. The objective that you're looking for here needs to be clear. But also the process itself is often quite broken. And that's because there tends to be a big gap in time and experience between folks that are looking for jobs and then those that are doing the hiring. And you forget. It's kind of like what I hear from people that have born children, where you kind of forget how difficult it is. And that's why you can, you know, bear more children. It's like so difficult where when you go, if you're applying to a job, here's the process you look through to see what opportunities exist. You find one that you think might be good, you apply. So you put together your resume, maybe you submit a Cover letter and you submit it, maybe you get an automated response back, maybe you don't. And then you start the process of checking your email every day or so you're kind of looking through. And every time you look, maybe I'll get a response eventually. You hope for even a rejection, just something to let you know that this. I can end this journey of kind of expecting. But it's a process of putting a lot of energy out there, getting very little back. And if you do get rejected, you often don't get any feedback as to why, what did make you a strong candidate. And so it is a very emotionally taxing process. And as a result, it's unsustainable indefinitely to just apply for jobs. There need to be other pieces that you take into account, whether it's having informational interviews or anything that's going to help you to better understand what you're looking for. All of that helps. And certainly the hiring manager, the organization, the search committee, they could be doing themselves a favor by crafting a job description that is going to both attract and repel. You want a job description that's going to make the right person say, yes, that's my job. And folks that are not a fit say, that is not my job. And that is not intuitive. Often, oftentimes you want to kind of cast a wide net and to use language that will attract many people. You don't want many people. You want the right people. And so be clear about what the role is and what you're looking for and what you're not.

[Joan]

Oh, I bet you have had many conversations. And this would be at the leadership level with search committees who have spent a painless, endless amount of time crafting a job description. And my running joke is that really all they needed was one piece of paper with two words on it. Messiah wanted.

[Omar Lopez]

That's exactly right. No, that's exactly right. The job description can often turn into a wish list, and that's not what we want. The job description is really a way of attracting candidates. It's just, it's their equivalent of the resume. Just like the resume is meant to attract employers. It's just the beginning of the conversation. But there are all of these other aspects of the search process that are helpful to think about from a humanity first perspective. And you mentioned how Dara brings a level of depth, having a rabbinical background herself. To me, the value of having someone that has studied religion at that depth is that they are able to understand the value of both very granular details and close conversations about Specific words, as well as having the big conversations. The conversations that why are we here? What are we doing? And being comfortable working at all of those levels. A job description is the beginning of that conversation. But ultimately, what we're trying to do is ensure that were able to talk at all of those levels.

[Joan]

So I heard. Lack of clarity. I heard. So these are the categories, are things that are broken in our recruitment system. And the categories are clarity. Process. Frank. Right. Especially, I mean, I think if you hire a search firm, it is less so underneath if you're not hiring a search firm and you're a hiring manager. This whole notion of being kind to those people who apply seems to fly out the window in the face of I have too much on my plate. And then I'm going to add a third category. And I wonder if you want to speak to this, which is marketing. And I want to take us away from senior leadership and into the. I'm going to post on. Indeed, I'm going to post on Idealist. I'm going to try to find fish in a pond. Right. The right fish. And it is my contention that the nonprofit sector devalues marketing. It is also my contention that the reason that nonprofit organizations, actually, I think some of what you've said holds true, that they don't get a great candidate pool, is they're not selling the opportunity that comes with being a part of their remarkable work. And I wonder if you could talk about that for a moment.

[Omar Lopez]

Absolutely. So I'm gonna talk about it in two ways. One is gonna be structure, and the other is gonna be around language. So around structure. Here is one of the realities. There has been a consolidation in a lot of ways when it comes to the posting of where 10, 15 years ago, there were many different kinds of places where a nonprofit may post an open job and they may find good candidates. In fact, when I worked at Relay Graduate School of Education, the chief operating officer for the organization at the time, he found that role through Craigslist. They posted on Craigslist and were able to find a great candidate that will show you that was in the early 2000s. That will show you how. How much things have changed. Where you really could post in many different places and you could get quality people from all over. That has really changed. One of them is the economics. It has become so expensive to post in many different places that it's counterintuitive or organizations can't afford it. That's one element of it. But two is just a result. If you are paying a lot of money and getting a lot of great candidates, then that'd be one thing. But oftentimes you're paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars or thousands in some cases, and. And not really getting a lot back either. You're getting a lot of scale again, a lot of volume, and it's mostly not a fit, or you're getting a very small number, just a trickle of candidates, and it doesn't feel like the juice is worth the squeeze. So instead, what has happened is now a consolidation towards places like LinkedIn and Idealist. And there's probably a very small number of places where folks are posting and that candidates are actively checking. There are also websites that will scrape information from across the Internet. And so, you know, you do have that as well. Indeed. Or something like that. But by and large, there's been a consolidation. So in terms of structure, sometimes they will. Organizations will ask me, hey, what's the magic place? Where can I post? Where I'm going to find my next great candidate? The reality is that it's not that easy now because it's both consolidated and decentralized. The best methods are to probably spend time and money on LinkedIn as a start and then think about what is the kind of profile that you're going after and think about where might those people be? Listservs, groups? Sometimes it's LinkedIn groups, Facebook groups, WhatsApp groups, Signal groups there, you know, professional groups that folks may be a part of, programs that folks may be coming a part of, schools, professional programs, et cetera, associations. These are some of the highest leverage ways of being able to find candidates these days, as opposed to going on your classifieds page of your.

[Joan]

Yeah, okay, Omar, got it. So I'm supposed to do all this work when I have an open position? I'm up to my ass in alligators and you want me to see if there's an HBCU listserv. Or I can post a job or I can like, you want me to fit to spend a lot of time that I don't have because I have an open position. I think you're saying that I need to do that and that it is worth the payoff.

[Omar Lopez]

I think so. So what I'm saying is, what are you looking for? So if what you're wanting to do is open the front door and see who walks in, then that could be fine. To the second big point here around language, yes, when it comes to hiring at a nonprofit, there's the skills that folks need to have the competencies, but then there's also the mission fit. And when we're talking about how do you promote a role in a way that's going to attract candidates, certainly you want to talk about it in a way where the skills are clear so that you can attract career changers or people from non profits, but maybe focused on different issue areas that may want to transfer over. But also the mission talking in a really clear, compelling way as to what it is that you do and why and why that might attract a certain kind of person, that's really important as well.

[Joan]

And isn't that fundamentally about a nonprofit hiring manager focusing on what nonprofit hiring managers focusing on what they need as opposed to putting themselves in the shoes of. Of the ideal candidate and saying what does that candidate actually need to hear from me in order to knock on my door?

[Omar Lopez]

Yeah. And so let's use some examples here. So let's say that you're looking for a fundraiser, a development person. This is a really common kind of hire, a really important one and one where you can have a lot of variability in where candidates are coming from. Mission matters a lot because you will have people that have some core skills. They understand how to raise money from major donors or foundations, from corporations or events. They understand the mechanics. And so in order for you to differentiate this role from the other development director role down the road, being able to describe the organization and its mission in a really compelling way and is one of the key ways of doing that, and one of the things that I have found is really helpful is to say what kind of impact can you have? So by raising, helping to raise money for this organization. Here are the number of kids that are gonna now be able to read. Here's the environmental impact that you'll be making. Here's the amount of housing that we're gonna make available for folks in this community, connecting the dots is one of the most compelling ways.

[Joan]

And would you actually, let's say you were hiring like a major gifts officer or something like that and you didn't have money for a search, would you actually put in the job posting? Right. Something about those. Some like at least a sound bite or two about that. If you want to do blah, blah, blah, blah blah, join our remarkable group of superheroes. Right? Something like that?

[Omar Lopez]

Absolutely. I mean, and it doesn't take a ton of work because you already have in the job description. Here's an organizational overview. Here's the role overview. Here are the responsibilities, the qualifications. When you're talking about the role overview, that's where you can connect the dots. That's where you can say this organization is working on expanding housing opportunities. We're looking for a major gifts officer. By helping us to raise the next million dollars for this organization, you're going to be able to help 500 families access housing that didn't have access to it before. It's just connected.

[Joan]

You bring it to you. Connecting the dots, bringing it to life. As opposed to putting your mission statement up there, which has been wordsmithed by about 15 people and the. The life has been sucked out of it. Right. Your job is to bring it to life. So we're having a conversation with Omar Lopez, who is a principal at DRG Talent. He's also the deputy mayor of Ossining, New York. And we're talking about this thing, this thing that is. We have a nonprofit sector, 1.8 million nonprofits in the US alone. And one of the most common things we hear is I have an open position and I cannot fill it. I cannot recruit a great pool of candidates. And I don't think that's their problem. I think it's our problem. And so when we come back, what I wanna talk about more on this idea of marketing. I wanna talk about the scarcity mindset of nonprofits and how that plays in. I wanna spend a couple of minutes on the wonderful world of Gen Z employees entering the workplace and maybe a little bit about leadership se. So stay with us and we'll be right back. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the nonprofit leadership lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn [e-mail] podcast so, Armar, let's talk about Gen Z employees arriving into the workplace. I did a lot of work for a presentation I did at Stanford on who Gen Z people are not to completely stereotype them. And I could spend a whole episode talking about that. But what I will say is they are on the hunt for meaning and purpose. Do you find that to be true? He's just nodding his head yes, that is absolutely true.

[Omar Lopez]

So you said that you can spend a whole episode and you have. I would recommend that folks go back and listen to the Gen Z episode of Podcasts are messy. To really do a deep podcasts are messy, podcasts are messy, it's non profits are messy. But this is really. We started with some tech issues.

[Joan]

Tech issues. Making it podcasts are messy. And you're right, I have talked about Gen Z, folks. Thank you for reminding me.

[Omar Lopez]

No, it's critical, of course. So here's some of the critical points. There are some base realities that we're dealing with here. Of course you mentioned you can't have a blanket that this is true for every single person. Of course it's not. There are exceptions all over the place. The connection to mission, that's something that really started with Millennials really wanting to have mission oriented work. There is a reality that Gen Z employees have that is slightly different from Millennial Number one, they have experienced the pandemic in a particular way and that has influenced the way that they think about their lives and careers. That's something that is important and we mentioned in the beginning, in my own journey, two is that they think about money in a different way. So when I, for example, was coming up and folks were kind of giving me advice about how to think about money, the conversation was around, should I negotiate for my salary or not? How do I do that? And so that was where a lot of the tips were for me as a candidate. Gen Z employees, by and large are coming in with more knowledge and expectation around compensation. And now the compensation ranges in many places are posted on the job descriptions themselves. They're coming in ready to go and with expectations around being able to have compensation be a key part of the conversation. The reason that that matters is because look at housing prices, look at the expenses that they have. Those are also quite different than they are for Millennials, for Gen X or beyond. And so there's just economic realities that Gen Z is facing that they bring with them to the table. The other thing is that there's also the rise of AI and how that impacts the world of work in some ways. It's still quite unclear how in really tangible ways across the board, it's impacting the work. But what we know is it's a piece of the puzzle. And Gen Z is the generation that is most natively adapted to it. Even they remember a time before AI because it's so new. But just like my generation, Millennials are the last ones that remember a time before the Internet. Gen Z is going to be the last generation that remembers a time before AI and they're going to bring with them that straddling of both of those experiences that then Gen Alpha coming after them are not going to have. They're going to be Native AI kind of folks and they're going to bring that to the conversation as well. So as we all try to make sense of how to support all of these generations, but particularly younger generations, folks that are eager to have mentorship and direction, but are also working in places where many organizations are hybrid or fully remote, so they may not have the same opportunities to observe their more senior colleagues come in and out of a meeting and debrief with them in the same way to have coffee breaks with folks to talk or just talk by the water cooler. That mentorship piece is still needed. And so that's one of the pieces that can help to also differentiate your organization by really emphasizing we will support you as a younger employee to develop.

[Joan]

As a professional, super smart. And it is also actually just live this. Recently I interviewed Dr. Tracy Bauer and we talked about fighting loneliness at work in a remote environment. These things are. They're intersectional, aren't they? Right. Is that if I feel like I'm part of a collegial posse of people who care about one another, who take care of one another, who help develop each other, I want to be in that posse and I want to stay in that posse. I think that's really, really important. And that's why I go back to marketing for a minute, if I will, if you will. Because I feel like Gen Z folks are looking to pick up what nonprofits are putting down and that we just don't put it down very well. And back to the recruitment and marketing piece of the puzzle, let's shift just a little bit and talk about mindset of scarcity that you see in the nonprofit sector and how that plays out. Do you see that? And if yes, how does it play out in recruiting, getting the right people on the bus?

[Omar Lopez]

Yeah, that's exactly right. So it starts with that first piece that I mentioned around clarity, because what you often hear is, well, I don't have a lot of high quality candidates coming in. Well, have you defined what that means to you? At a minimum and at a maximum. And even that can really help build out for the hiring manager for the organization, for the search committee, what it is that they're looking for that they can then reverse engineer. How do we attract those kinds of people? Let's take an operations role as an example. One of the other big issues that I see is when there is a mismatch, a misalignment in the kind of profile types that an employer is looking for. So for example, they may Say, hey, I'm looking for a real operations minded, process oriented, detail oriented person that is also gonna be the center of the room when they walk in. They're really strong interpersonally. They love having you put them in front of a conference. They love it. Those are often very different kinds of profiles. And so especially for a smaller organization that is looking for are all in one, they may say, hey, we do need someone that's going to be great behind the scenes and as the star of the show. But the reality is that you're not going to attract, first of all, those kind of people don't exist in large numbers. And second of all, if you're unclear about which of those is a priority for you, you're not going to attract the kind of people that you want. So if you're really clear and you say, hey, listen, it would be really nice to have someone that would be comfortable speaking in front of a crowd or at an event or with some of the partners or stakeholders that we have. But what we really need is someone to help build out this system. We need someone that could help build out our HRIs or someone that could help build out our knowledge management system or something like that. Then great. Then that is what you can write in the job description. That's how you can describe the role to candidates. That's how you can spread the word to referrals. That's going to attract the kind of people that love spending their time at the Container Store on the weekends that, that have everything in their house organized by alphabetical order, that everything is color coded. They have a label maker and they love it. Those are the kind of people that you want. And so write the job description to attract those kind of people.

[Joan]

If you have a label maker and have an affinity towards a Container Store, you might be just the right person for us.

[Omar Lopez]

And how powerful is that to speak to someone in their language and go.

[Joan]

Yes, that's oh my God, that's me. Right? That's my job. Right, that's my job. We have another that's my job story really quickly as a digression, then we're going to move to talking about, I want to stay on scarcity for one more minute. But we have a woman who works for us, her name is Katie Koenig. And she saw the job description and sort of felt that sort of affinity towards coming to work with us to help nonprofits, help nonprofit leaders, board and staff be better leaders and managers in a community that has both content and sort of, you know, an interaction and a community amongst them. And her first outreach came from the person on our team who does the initial screening, and her last name is Koenig. And anyway, we have a joke around our offices every time we have a new position that Joy has to change her name to the name of the most interesting candidate, because then it really feels like it's their job. But scarcity finds itself in issues of money, and it finds itself in issues of time. Right. I don't have enough time to curate and go fish in these different ponds. Or I don't. This was the best qualified candidate I could get for the amount of money I have budgeted. And I wonder how you respond to those two questions for people.

[Omar Lopez]

Absolutely. So we at DRG just recently did a search for a nonprofit that was looking for an executive director in New York City, with the top of the range being $90,000. Now, $90,000 is well below the average salary for a nonprofit CEO in New York City. And they originally came to us saying, hey, this is the most that we can afford. But also, we think that for the right candidate, it could make sense because it's a very small staff, there's a lot of flexibility, et cetera. They had these kind of compelling reasons, and so we were able to work with them to craft the job description, to understand the profile of the person and ultimately develop a pool and be able to fill the role with someone that's really excited about a $90,000 executive director role. And where does that come from for us? It starts with just attitude. Right. It starts with. You mentioned scarcity. The opposite of that is abundance. It's knowing, Listen, it's a big world and there's a lot in it, and we're going to be able to find what we're looking for. Just the mentality of saying, there's a lot in the world, and I'm able to tap into it, to access it, puts you in a different orientation. You're listening differently, you're seeing things differently. And that's really important because when you're trying to attract someone, particularly if the role is going to be below the median when it comes to compensation, if it has a large level of responsibility or it has kind of conflicting pro profiles, like I mentioned, then you're going to want to be able to really be really compelling in the way that you talk about it. It starts with having that abundance mentality as opposed to scarcity. But then the second is being realistic, where you may feel like you don't have the time because you may not have the time. Right. It may be that if you look at how much time you actually have to dedicate to a search, you don't have enough time in your day to be able to do it. And that's where working with a search firm can be helpful. But it's also where thinking about who else can I bring in to support me in this can be really helpful as well. Yes, there are different components of the search process. Being able to craft the, the search plan and the job description, attracting candidates, interviewing them. The most time consuming part often isn't even the, the research into candidates and the outreach and the interviewing all that. It's really that once you have some candidates that you're interested in, how do you process them? How do you keep folks engaged? That is quite time consuming. And so that may be able, maybe a piece that you can deputize someone else to support you with. And it really starts with like, hey, how can I access all of the resources that I have in front of me in order to make this happen?

[Joan]

So much of all of this. I'm just going to say it again. So much of all of this is the sort of when I have an urgent need to fill a job in my organization. I am so hyper focused on what I need that I am not focused enough on the needs of my top candidates. The needs of the people who take the time to say I would really like to explore working with your organization. Right. Is that I just don't think we are empathetic enough to the needs of candidates in order to be kind to them, to follow through on process. And so we don't prioritize that and we don't make time for it. And I think that's because, you know what? That person who might not be right for your organization might be right for someone else's. And I do believe that the opportunity to work in the nonprofit space, however turbulent the times may be, I mean, this was the biggest lesson I learned is, you know, I came from the for profit space. It's a privilege. It's an amazing opportunity to get paid to do something that matters, full stop. I want to end with just a brief conversation about leadership searches. And I know we could. I've actually had Dara as a guest on the show too. Maybe this would be. What are the top two or three things that organizations screw up? Because there's a lot of screwed up searches. Right. And you all have to anticipate that because a screwed up search in a short period of time is no friend of yours.

[Omar Lopez]

Correct.

[Joan]

What Are the top things that organizations screw up that they could avoid if they actually listened to what you had to say?

[Omar Lopez]

Yeah. So we'll start at the ground level with the mechanics, the very mechanics of the search. And the job description often captures some of these mechanics, although not always so. One of the first ways in which they screw up, there's a misalignment with the market. The compensation range that you have, for example, may be way below the market rate. Now, that may be something that you are going into the process knowing, but if you don't, you should do some benchmarking beforehand. And especially with so many roles now having their compensation published, it takes less work than ever to be able to find not only studies, every year there are annual reviews that come out of nonprofit salaries both nationally and at the city level, the state level. And so you can kind of put these together to try to say where does this fall? This is especially true for executive director and other senior level roles where in 990s nonprofits are needing to publish that information. So that is one place where you can get some initial information to get a sense of where does this land, what are other similar organizations and what are they posting. Second is in terms of process. Do you have some sort of process laid out in the job description? It does not need to be extensive, but some of the key things to look for are, do candidates know by when you're looking for them to apply? It doesn't have to be an application deadline necessarily. It could be something like, we're going to be looking at candidates and prior the priority deadline is going to be the end of March, but we're still looking at candidates after that. The reason that that's important is because not only does it create a sense of urgency with some candidates, but it also gives them a sense of what to expect in terms of the timeline and process overall. That is another place that when you're actually engaging with them, you can be doing them and yourself a huge favor by just telling them, here's what we expect. We're having initial conversations with candidates for the next six weeks. Then in the beginning of April, we're going to be interviewing them and kind of going through the process, just outline it and ensure that it works for them. So the logistics are one of the pieces. Also know why searches tend to fall apart and they tend to sometimes be some of the most basic things are candidates in other searches? Just ask them. They don't need to tell you exactly what searches, but they can tell you, yes, I am, and you can ask them, where are you in the process? That's helpful because that way you're not surprised at the end if they say, hey, I have a competing offer, or if they drop off before you finish your process and ensure that the compensation range works for them, even though it's published on the job description, most times making sure that that's there. So that's the logistics. The second is in terms of who's involved in the process. This is so key when you're looking at a hiring manager, which is one person making a decision, versus a search committee, in which you have to come to some sort of a consensus who the interviewers are going to be throughout this process. You want to be thoughtful that who candidates are engaging with is going to reflect the organization in a particular way, is going to be representative of their experience, but also that's going to keep candidates engaged. And so having a variety of people be involved in the process is critical as well. And that's the number two way is who is involved. And the top way that the number one way in which these searches oftentimes get derailed is that they get deprioritized. This is something that doesn't seem to be obvious because you go, well, this is an important search, of course I have to do it. But we're. If you are conducting a search, unless you have my role or a human resources role where your job is to hire, this is in addition to the other work that you're doing. If you're volunteering on a board of directors, then this is in addition to the other responsibilities that you have. And they don't always play nice with the search timeline. And so it may be that you say, hey, of course we're going to be interviewing candidates the last two weeks of April, but oops, it turns out that this other work priority or this they happened in your personal life or whatever, and that may derail the search process and you end up being delayed or being unable to follow through on what you expected. And so the very top way that you can help to account for that is including other people in the process so that if you do need to drop off, they're able to continue things communicating with candidates if there are any changes in the timeline, which helps if you've already told them what those things are and being able to as much as possible stick to the process that is there, recognizing there are going to be trade offs. And so I try to help the clients that I work with by doing easy things like just getting times on the calendar weeks or sometimes months in advance, just blocking a chunk of time we're anticipating. Interviewing during these three days, let's block four hours during these three days. As we get closer, we can adjust the timing, but it's much easier to reduce a block that you've already created than trying to find something that's already busy. Calendar?

[Joan]

Yes. I think these are all great, and there are universal messages in all of this. And I just want to wrap up by just looking at the notes that I've taken during our conversation and some of Omar's really good, thoughtful insights and very tactical advice. Here. I'll speak to what I heard and then offer you the final last word. A broken recruitment system for getting great people on the nonprofit bus that we heard talked about a lack of clarity both in terms of the person looking and the organization seeking. We talked about process and that we are not always, as organizations, clear enough about our process, nor do we communicate that to prospective candidates, nor do we put ourselves in the shoes of those candidates about what they need to know. We also talked about marketing. How do we. In fact, we know that we are a remarkable organization that does remarkable work. But you can't assume that the candidate does. I can say that my daughter was looking for a nonprofit job for a period of time, and she'd say, what do you think about this one? And I'd be like, oh, my God, that's an amazing organization. I went to their website, but in five minutes I had my daughter frothing about applying for that job, Right? And I thought to myself, why couldn't they do that? Like, so there's that. You talked about comp and benchmarking. We talked about recruitment and language. I think at the end of the day, it's about intentionality. You have to be super intentional about every single hire you make, and that will make all the difference. Because we all know that moving a bad fit out takes a lot more real time and emotional time than bringing the right person into the house and having them add to the fuel and excitement of doing great work on behalf of a community or a cause. Did I capture everything generally beautifully, beautifully? Last word?

[Omar Lopez]

Yeah. The last thing that I'd like to leave folks with is a piece of math, which is this. Out of all the candidates that apply for any role, from executive director to the most junior role that you have, there's only one person that's getting the role. Most people that are engaging with you and in this process are not getting the role. And while we spend a lot of our time trying to figure out who's that one person going to be and how do we ensure that we find them and keep them. I would also encourage you to think about every other person that is not getting the role, because those are the people that then turn into board members, supporters, donors, and it's an infinite game. And you want to keep that in mind.

[Joan]

Right. I think about the nonprofit sector as a movement pointing the world towards a civil society and people, and the volume of people who care is equal to the power that you have. And I think you've just made a really insightful point, is that someone wanted to get on your bus, right? Many people wanted to get on your bus, and maybe half of them just tossed a resume your way. But I bet a lot of them didn't, right? A lot of them actually said, I want to be in this space. I want to matter. I want to have meaning and purpose. And that the job might not be right for them, but how they experience their interaction with you helps them understand good, bad, or indifferent. Right? How the nonprofit sector and being associated with it can, in fact, fuel them and make them feel like they are doing something to make the world something different, something better, something more magical. So, Omar, what a pleasure chatting with you. You clearly know your stuff. Dara got one of the right people on the bus, and I know she has many of them, but I'm glad to have spent time with one of them today. Omar, thank you so much.

[Omar Lopez]

Thank you. I'm humbled. Thank you so much, John.

[Joan]

Okay, so lots of takeaways today. So I hope that if you listened at 1.75, maybe you'll listen to it again later at a slower speed and take a few notes. Share it with your team. Share it with your board. If a search committee is starting to form and there's some really good actionable pieces of advice in here that I hope that you have gleaned from it and that you will take time to put into action. But again, the object of the game is make intentional choices, especially in tough times. So that's it for me. Thank you very much for your time today. Thanks for taking the time to invest in your own professional development by joining us. And please, please, please, please take good care of yourselves. We'll see you next time.

[Gary]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more.

[Joan]

Good.

[Gary]

For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com we think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.