Ep. 232: The Helpers Need Help Too: How Leaders Refill Their Tanks

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep. 232 - "The Helpers Need Help Too: How Leaders Refill Their Tanks"

Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Host: Joan Garry
Guests: Glenda
Release Date: July 19, 2025

---

Introduction: Navigating the Stormy Waters of Nonprofit Leadership

In this episode, Joan Garry and Glenda delve into the unique challenges faced by nonprofit leaders, using vivid metaphors to illustrate the precarious situation many find themselves in. They compare nonprofit leaders to "small boats in wide open ocean waters" [00:00], highlighting the vast and turbulent environment in which these leaders operate, often without adequate resources or support.

The Metaphor of Leadership as Small Boats

Joan sets the stage by describing the daunting landscape nonprofit leaders must navigate:

"Sometimes nonprofit leaders can feel like they are small boats in wide open ocean waters, tackling some of the hardest problems in our communities, our countries, and our planet." [00:00]

Glenda adds to this by emphasizing the unpredictability and chaos within the sector:

"The nonprofit sector began this year in panic mode. Was a typhoon ahead...ship captains are navigating chaotic, turbulent water and cannot bank on sector meteorologists." [00:26]

This metaphor underscores the isolation and lack of predictable guidance nonprofit leaders often experience.

Personal Strategies for Refueling Leadership

Glenda's Walks and Inspirational Podcasts

Glenda shares her personal methods for maintaining resilience amidst chaos:

"The more uncertain and chaotic things get out there, the more simple things are. The things become that actually fuel me." [03:20]

She highlights activities such as walking on the boardwalk in Asbury Park, NJ, and listening to inspiring podcasts like "We Can Do Hard Things," which provide her with both solace and motivation.

Joan's Piano Lessons and Ocean Views

Joan discusses her own self-care practices, emphasizing the importance of engaging in activities that quiet the mind:

"I take piano lessons, and I have since I was 60. I'm 67... It shuts my head down. It shuts down all that fidgetiness for me." [05:37]

Additionally, she finds peace near the ocean, echoing the sentiment that natural environments can help wash away worries:

"Go look at the ocean because the waves wash away your worries." [06:32]

Importance of Health

Both hosts stress the critical role of maintaining physical health as part of self-care. Glenda advocates for regular health check-ups:

"I would also say get a colonoscopy. It's really important... nature is very simple. Relationships, and then also your health." [04:34]

Joan agrees, sharing her plans to have her hearing checked:

"I'm having my hearing checked tomorrow... It's about taking care of yourself." [08:11]

Positive Developments in the Nonprofit Sector

Despite the overarching challenges, Joan and Glenda highlight positive developments that offer hope to the nonprofit community.

Success in Obtaining 501c3 Status

Glenda recounts the success of a member in securing 501c3 status, a significant achievement amidst widespread fears of nonprofits losing their tax-exempt status:

"I just got my 501 status... reminded me like, oh, there is hope." [10:16]

Joan echoes this sentiment, celebrating the optimism it brings:

"I saw it too. I am thrilled to announce that I just got my 501C3." [11:34]

Re-hiring Experts from the EPA

Joan discusses innovative strategies nonprofits are employing to overcome staffing challenges, such as rehiring experts from the Environmental Protection Agency:

"A climate change think tank in Washington is seeing hundreds of people from the EPA... seeking funding to bring those folks in house." [11:34]

This approach not only fills gaps in expertise but also revitalizes organizations with seasoned professionals passionate about their missions.

The Importance of Planning

A significant portion of the conversation centers on strategic planning as a tool to navigate uncertainty.

Scenario Planning

Glenda emphasizes the necessity of scenario planning in preparing for various possibilities:

"You're planning for the possibilities... What if we lose this federal grant?" [17:19]

Joan expands on this by highlighting the motivational aspect of having a clear vision:

"Planning is never about... What did I come here to do? What would my organization be doing five years from now?" [19:50]

Keeping Focus on the 'North Star'

Both hosts stress the importance of maintaining focus on the organization's core mission, or 'North Star,' to guide decision-making and keep teams aligned:

"If I had a crystal ball and I could look five years from now, what would my organization be doing?" [19:50]

Staying Motivated

Joan and Glenda delve into strategies for maintaining motivation, emphasizing the fundamental 'why' behind nonprofit work.

"Why are you doing this? What did you come here to do?" [21:15]

Joan encourages leaders to revisit their original motivations by reflecting on their initial aspirations:

"When you wanted this job, you wrote some cover letter that said, here's my why... remind yourself, I really wanted to do this." [23:33]

Assessment and Reflection

Regular assessment and reflection are highlighted as vital practices for organizational health and adaptability.

"Doing some kind of assessment... How are we doing? What did we do well? What could we do better?" [24:44]

Joan adds that assessments should be manageable and even enjoyable to encourage participation and continuous improvement:

"Don't make it feel daunting to do it... do it over a virtual lunch or bring in bagels and feed your staff." [29:24]

Community and Support Networks

The hosts underscore the value of community and support within the nonprofit sector, highlighting the strength that comes from shared experiences and mutual support.

"There are about 6,000 members of the nonprofit leadership lab... nurtures a warm, private community of superheroes." [02:25]

They emphasize that leaders "are not alone" and that building strong networks can provide much-needed support and encouragement [12:53].

Communication and Appreciation

Authentic communication and expressing appreciation are identified as key leadership traits that foster a positive and motivated team environment.

"Noticing that appreciation and actually taking the step of telling other people about it can feel really, really good." [32:17]

Joan connects this to effective leadership, emphasizing that authentic communication is crucial:

"That's also about communications and authenticity... key attributes of great leaders." [33:53]

Closing Thoughts and Encouragement

In their final thoughts, Joan and Glenda offer heartfelt encouragement to nonprofit leaders, reminding them of their importance and the positive impact they have.

Glenda: "What do you want to say to those leaders out there... You're doing a good job. Keep going." [34:17]

They also reinforce the importance of self-care, urging leaders to engage in activities they love to sustain their passion and effectiveness:

Joan: "Do whatever you can that you love to take care of yourselves, please." [34:19]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Joan: "Sometimes nonprofit leaders can feel like they are small boats in wide open ocean waters..." [00:00]

• Glenda: "We are seeing folks passionate... fueling their leadership, especially in the nonprofit leadership lab." [01:26]

• Joan: "You are at your very best when things are worst." [01:49]

• Glenda: "I have 30% hearing loss... It's made the biggest difference in my life." [08:11]

• Glenda: "The more people need you, the more it fuels you to want to help." [05:36]

• Joan: "I came here to run an organization that's going here." [19:50]

• Glenda: "What are you doing to take control in a time that is chaotic and unpredictable?" [27:18]

Conclusion

This episode of "Nonprofits Are Messy" provides invaluable insights and practical strategies for nonprofit leaders striving to maintain their resilience and effectiveness amid ongoing challenges. Through discussions on personal self-care, strategic planning, community support, and authentic communication, Joan Garry and Glenda offer a comprehensive guide to helping the helpers refill their tanks and continue making meaningful impacts in their communities.

---

For more resources and to join the Nonprofit Leadership Lab community, visit nonprofitleadershiplab.com.

Transcript

[Joan]

Sometimes nonprofit leaders can feel like they are small boats in wide open ocean waters, tackling some of the hardest problems in our communities, our countries, and our planet. And more than 70% of those boats are barely equipped with the basic supplies for a day trip around the lake. Those general supplies, by the way, are the things that are covered by general operating expenses. In case that wasn't clear.

[Glenda]

The nonprofit sector began this year in panic mode. Was a typhoon ahead. For some, it happened really quickly. Federal grants evaporating, really hard decisions and layoffs. For others, the communities they serve are experiencing that typhoon. Immigrants, LGBTQ people, and any nonprofit that understands that diversity is a strength and not a forbidden word. Here we are into the year, and the ship captains are navigating chaotic, turbulent water and cannot bank on sector meteorologists. Could we ever count on meteorologists?

[Joan]

No, I don't think so.

[Glenda]

I'm not sure. Yeah, can't count on them to predict the weather ahead. So every day, Joan and I work with the captains of the small to mid sized ships. And amidst all of this, we are seeing folks passionate, maybe even more passionate about the work and finding ways to fuel their leadership, especially in the nonprofit leadership lab.

[Joan]

So I'm not sure if you remember a 1980s film called Starman. Jeff Bridges plays an alien in human form, and at one point in the film, he turns to the human he has fallen in love with. Okay, can we have some true confessions? How many of you have fallen in love with people you ultimately realized were aliens?

[Glenda]

Not me.

[Joan]

No, not you, Glenda. No, no, I don't remember any of those people in your life. But anyway, I digress. Jeff Bridges turns to this woman he's fallen in love with. He turns to her and he says, shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst. That's what we're chatting about today. How leaders are fueling themselves, what we're seeing, and how they are showing up at their very best.

[Gary]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts.

[Glenda]

This podcast is your go to space.

[Gary]

For insights, advice and inspiration, designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support.

[Glenda]

You every step of the way.

[Gary]

Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in.

[Joan]

So Glenda, we have leadership roles to play in the work that we do in the nonprofit leadership lab and when we coach with our clients. What fuels you?

[Glenda]

Good question. I feel like the more uncertain and chaotic things get out there, the more simple things are. The things become that. That actually fuel me. I live in Asbury Park, New Jersey, as you know, Joan. And I have found myself going for a lot of walks on the boardwalk before the summer officially began. And lots and lots of people started joining me on that boardwalk. Being out there in the morning by myself, taking a walk, looking at the ocean, that's definitely refueling. And I think the other thing is, for me, listening to inspiring and hopeful podcasts that includes nonprofits are messy. But in this case, I'm talking about my other favorite podcast, which is We Can Do Hard Things.

[Joan]

You turned me on to that, actually.

[Glenda]

Yeah. I listen to that podcast every week, and they just talk to really great people who have really interesting things to say. And I always leave their podcasts having learned something and feeling a little better than when I walk to it. So those are two things I'm doing personally. What are you doing?

[Joan]

You and I together and separately, have been having conversations with other people who are in the space we are in, which is helping the helpers. And I actually find that really, really fueling. Honestly, leaders always feel better when they know they're not alone. And clearly there are a lot of people who provide coaching and leadership development, and it's really good to talk to them, to see what they're seeing, to grab insights that can be helpful as we do our work together. So I think about people like Darlie Knipper at the Rockwood Institute. I think about allison [e-mail] and I could list many, many others as well. So that's something on the work side. And I guess I would also say that, and maybe this is kind of True Confessions of the Helpers is like, the more people need you, the more it fuels you to want to help. I feel like that I'm more fired up because I feel like people need me more, if that makes sense. On the personal side.

[Glenda]

Talk to your therapist about that later.

[Joan]

Yes. Yes. I think it's Friday afternoon, actually. Two other things, and I will just slightly mention that I play pickleball because it's just so incredibly stereotypical for somebody in their 60s to play pickleball. But I think this one is better. I take piano lessons, and I have since I was 60. I'm 67, so I'm not a whole lot better. But it doesn't actually matter. Just like, you know how they say that meditation is a practice. That's what I think about as the case with learning an instrument is that it's a practice and it shuts my head down. It shuts down all that fidgetiness for me, and I really enjoy it. And I'm currently working on a Schumann piece. And I'm with you about the ocean, too. I have a house near the beach, and my best friend's father always used to say, go look at the ocean because the waves wash away your worries.

[Glenda]

Yeah, I love that. I have one more thing to add. This is going to be surprising, probably to most folks. I would also say get a colonoscopy. It's really important. And I do think, coming back to my larger point about, like, when things get really complex, make it simple. And, you know, nature is very simple. Relationships, and then also your health. So for me, getting a colonoscopy recently and being able to check that off the list and say, okay, I did that and I'm good. That's like a huge weight lifted that I didn't even know was there. I would encourage folks to take care of themselves in that way, especially in these moments.

[Joan]

So you're really using colonoscopy as an illustration and an example, because you. And nobody listening to this podcast would actually know that this has been a topic of regular conversation around the virtual office.

[Glenda]

It really has.

[Joan]

Yes.

[Glenda]

Everyone who is of age is getting their colonoscopies, and that's a really good thing. Let's all do it.

[Joan]

Speaking of age, I guess I would also say that before I'm taking some time off and before I leave, I'm having my hearing checked. And there you go. Right? I'm having my hearing check tomorrow. I love that. And I'm making my wife have her hearing check. We promised each other that as we aged, we would have our hearing checked and that if at any point somebody said, you're losing your hearing, we would get hearing aids. And I know that actually you have hearing loss and you're not of age.

[Glenda]

I am not of age. I found out I had hearing loss when I was 40. I had 30% hearing loss in both ears. I am 49. Since we are disclosing our ages. So of colonoscopy and now, I guess of hearing loss age. But I've been wearing hearing aids for the last, oh, eight years at least. And it's changed my life, the story goes. My friends used to joke and say, you should get your hearing checked because they just Thought I wasn't listening. The biggest voice in that chorus was my spouse, Jayma, who was like, you should get your ears checked. And I went and got them checked and I actually have hearing loss. I was not ignoring them. I really couldn't hear them. Saddest of all is that the person I have the hardest time hearing without hearing aids is my spouse. J. So makes for some interesting evenings when the hearing aids come out or mornings when we first wake up. And I have to say, what. What are you saying? But it's really. It's made the biggest difference in my life. So I love that you're doing that, Joan. I think that's so smart. There are so many people I meet and I'm like, do you fearing loss? You might and you don't need to. Yeah, get some hearing aids and you can hear everything.

[Joan]

Those people who know me know that I have a very loud voice even when I'm not even trying. And that has always been. It has always been assumed that I must not hear very well, but I do not. I believe that is a genetic Gary trait. But anyway, enough about us, right? We can continue to talk about our health from head to toe, but I don't think we should. But yeah. So your point about self care?

[Glenda]

No, that's not what this podcast is about.

[Joan]

Let's move away from us. Although talking about us is always fun. Let's talk about the ship captains we're seeing with our coaching clients and with lab members. These lovely things, good news, like things that are happening. People fueling their leadership in different ways.

[Glenda]

So let me start with something small but huge. I guess I would say I One of the things that we get the privilege of doing is being a part of something we call the village. And the Village is the community of members of the nonprofit leadership lab. There are about 6,000 of them. And I ran across something the other day that made me pause and just smile. And that is someone, one of our members who said, I have some really good news. I was just granted my 501 status. Jennifer Rosario and it made me so happy because in the midst of. And you know this, Joan, and our listeners know this, in the midst of legitimate fears about Nonprofits losing their C3 status for no good reason, to have someone out there who has been applying to get their C3 status and have that come through. And it reminded me like, oh, there is hope. There are still good things happening out there. We have to keep going. So that was one thing for me.

[Joan]

I saw it too. What do you see? I saw it too. And the words that she used was, I am thrilled to announce that I just got my 501C3.

[Glenda]

Yes.

[Joan]

Yeah, I loved that. Yes, I am seeing optimism. Right. I have talked a little bit about with you. We were talking about this this morning about a climate change think tank in Washington that is seeing hundreds of people from the epa, Environmental Protection Agency who have been let go, massive skill and expertise out there to work in this space. And they are thinking innovatively about how best they might be able to seek some funding to bring those folks in house. I'm betting that many nonprofits could be thinking similarly about folks in the United States government who are out on the streets with the kinds of skills and expertise and passion for your mission. So not only did I find that inspiring, I also think that it's worth thinking about as you think about where am I gonna get the person power if I don't have an AmeriCorps volunteer or whatever the case may be. So that's something that I have seen. And I think to your point about the village, it's just so nice to see people who are struggling themselves helping other people who are struggling.

[Glenda]

Yes. And this is one of those situations kind of similar to Covid, where the people that nonprofits serve are being impacted, the people who work at nonprofits are being impacted, the people who fund nonprofits are being impacted. And that kind of ripple effect of like, usually when we're the helpers helping, we're okay ourselves. And we find ourselves in a situation where a lot of people don't feel totally okay. You know, they really feel like, this is scary. Could I lose my job? Could my organization go under? Things that we used to be able to count on in the nonprofit sector, we can no longer take for granted. I do think I get really hopeful when I see people doubling down on those important relationships, like reaching out to funders and saying, hey, how are you? Here's how we're doing, here's what's going on. Are you seeing a lot of this? Are we the only ones? It just feels like collective coming together, like community building across lots of different areas is going to be part of our salvation in this moment. It feels like we're alone, but we're not, and we need to find each other.

[Joan]

And again, in our community. When I go through comments and posts in our community, I'm not doom scrolling at all. I'm hearing from people that are asking very practical questions, like how many scenarios do I put in a scenario plan? Or conversely, I just got $100,000 grant. Right. It is not like the well has totally dried up. And I think that's really important to keep in mind.

[Glenda]

Yeah. I feel like in this moment, you know, one of the things we try to do, Joan and I, we were both on the front lines at some point leading organizations, dealing with cash flow, dealing with staff, dealing with boards. And now we are in the position where we get to sort of sit back a little bit and survey what is going on out there and what can we do to help the helpers, what can we do to support leaders, and what should leaders be doing to try and make it better for themselves and their organizations. And I think there are three questions that really pop up for me right now that I feel like folks ought to be thinking about to help plan.

[Joan]

Do you think we should tell them now or do you think we should tell them after the break? I think we should tell them after the break, don't you?

[Glenda]

That's a great idea. Let's tell them after the break.

[Joan]

Three important questions when we come back. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now, you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the Nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills, and a warm, nurturing, private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn [e-mail] podcast. We're back. We left you with a cliffhanger. Glenda said there are three important questions leaders of nonprofits need to ask themselves right now in order to stay positive and productive in what is a polarizing environment. Okay, go ahead. You give me one, I'll come up with one and I'll let you come up with the third one maybe.

[Glenda]

So this is something that's important I find important personally and professionally. It has helped me tremendously in both realms. I find planning to be really soothing. It helps me organize the chaos. It helps me figure out what can I control, what can I not control? And I'm wondering, I'm thinking a lot about nonprofits right now and the planning they're doing. Are they doing it?

[Joan]

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking, should such nonprofits be planning? I was thinking to myself that there are listeners saying, oh, good for you, Glenda. You're planning. I don't know what in the wide world of sports I'm supposed to Be planning for.

[Glenda]

You gotta plan for the possibilities.

[Joan]

That's it.

[Glenda]

That's the cool thing about planning, is that it gives me a way, honestly, personally, I'll talk to my therapist about this later to channel my anxiety anxieties. What if this happens? Okay, what is the plan? What if we lose this federal grant? What if we get this ask that we just put out there? You're planning for the possibilities. You're planning for what might happen so you can be better prepared if and when it does. Well, are you seeing people plan out there?

[Joan]

Yeah, and I. So scenario planning, definitely. We've seen boards because they're risk adverse. Ask executive directors for so many scenario plans, it'll make your head spin. Yeah, but I also think there's something else about the planning. So you ran an organization for 14 years, you do a strategic plan. You didn't always know what was around the bend. Right. You don't see the future. You don't know whether there's going to be a recession or any of those things. We never do. The fact that we actually know what we know in some ways makes us more aware. And so for me, planning is never about. I have to know. Planning for me is always about. And you use the word possibility, I'm gonna use it in a different way, which is what is possible. What did I come here to do? Right. What is this? If I had a crystal ball and I could look five years from now, what would my organization be doing? What would it look like, where's it going? And to be able to. Whether you get there more slowly, whether you get there in a different way, that the planning around the North Star becomes motivational, which will be a good bridge to number two in order to say, okay, I might not be getting there in a linear fashion and I might not be getting there with all the staff members I have now. And the timetable might be a little different, but I came here to run an organization that's going here.

[Glenda]

Yeah, I agree with that so much. And I short tangent, but related. I think sometimes people just put so much pressure on. I'm using air quotes, the listeners can't see me. Strategic plans, like you need to have this strategic plan. It needs to be at least three years, maybe three to five. You got to have that plan. Not all planning needs to be like that.

[Joan]

Right.

[Glenda]

Planning is really about knowing what the plan was. So you know the trade offs you're making because it will change totally. Something will come up and you will have to do with it. And at least you know, if you had some kind of plan. You don't need the capital S, capital P strategic plan, although that's helpful. But having a plan helps, you know, okay, so this was the plan, but this came up. If we're going to take advantage of this, then we're not going to be able to do this.

[Joan]

Agree.

[Glenda]

And that is just so helpful when you are having to deal with a lot of unpredictability, uncertainty, which is what all nonprofit leaders are swimming at.

[Joan]

Right. So number one is planning, which we said was a thing to really be thinking about in order to stay positive and productive. And you may think that's counterintuitive, but we actually don't think so. And to my earlier point, really, keeping your eye on the North Star is something that motivates you. And the second thing we think is really important for you to be thinking about is staying motivated. Right. What's your why? What's inspiring you or fueling you lately? How are you handling self care? What's your touchstone? And when you've been in the trenches, Glenda, how have you found that when you're having a cash flow problem or.

[Glenda]

Whatever it might be, I think it's so important in these moments, you can get so caught up in the crisis or the problem or the challenge that's right in front of you. So important to remember your why. Why are you doing this? What did you come here to do? And I've heard you say something in the past, Joan, that I totally agree with, which is don't forget to make time to touch the work, to really make sure that you're. You know, I ran an LGBT center. I was really lucky. I got to just walk out my door, the door of my office.

[Joan]

But how many times were you behind that door up to your ass in alligators. Right. And felt like you didn't have the time to go downstairs. Correct. And sit in that cafe and chat with the people who. Who called that place home. That felt a sense of belonging, that when they walked through your doors and that just even five minutes of a coffee and a conversation could have actually motivated you. Right. This is what people don't do. You got to step away from your computer and go touch the work.

[Glenda]

Yes. And even in this new world that I live in at the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and Joan Gray Consulting, having conversations with really smart people, people who care about the same things I do, like Vivian Chang from the Democratizing Philanthropy Project and runs the Tacoma Community Foundation. Kathy Lippman. Having conversations with people who are grappling with. What are we Seeing how do we deal with this, how are we going to get through it, is actually so inspiring to me. It reminds me I'm not alone in this work. None of us are alone. And it feels really good to have those personal connections with people to remember why we're doing this. I think as leaders, when I ran the center, I thought so much about how do I motivate and inspire community members, donors, board members, staff members. The person you cannot forget to inspire and motivate is yourself. If you are drained, if you're running on empty, if you have no inspiration in your tank, you're going to be less inspiring to other people.

[Joan]

The other recommendation I make to people is I remind them that they applied for the job, right? And, yeah, I remember when I actually stepped down from my nonprofit ed role, somebody in the sort of the celebration of my leaving, maybe that's not exactly what it was, but somebody. I think Eric, my assistant, had printed out a copy of my cover letter of applying for the job. And it was very. And it was real. It really was something that I encourage people to do is like, when you wanted this job, you wrote some cover letter that said, here's my. Why it's right there. Just keep it on your laptop. And every once in a while, just have a quick read and remind yourself, I really wanted to do this. The word touch. Yeah.

[Glenda]

Because you might forget sometimes. Just remind yourself. I think that's so important.

[Joan]

There's a chapter in my book called I Came to Change the World, not Conduct Performance Reviews. And, like, you can get a little caught up in that stuff. The third one, Glenda, talk a little bit about this. Cause I think this is really, really smart.

[Glenda]

I think sometimes leaders can shy away from this because it sounds. It can sound intimidating or daunting, but I think it can be really motivating. And that is doing some assessment, doing some reflection. We often think about this when, you know, it's the end of the calendar year and New Year's Eve and what are your resolutions? And you're looking back and you're looking forward. But the truth is we don't have to do that according to a calendar or a holiday. Doing an assessment with people you respect at your organization, maybe some staff members, maybe some board members, and saying, okay, we're about six months at this point of recording into 2025. That's about halfway through the calendar year. How are we doing? What are we doing really well, that we want to pat ourselves on the back and we want to hang on to. We want to Keep doing that. And what could we be doing better? What is tripping us up? And do we need to solve that, or do we just need to let it go? Is that just something like, it's taking too much of our time? And you know what? It's not going to be a priority this year. We're going to prioritize something else. Pausing to be able to do some kind of assessment of your organization refocuses you and the key stakeholders on the things that are really, really important and reminds you that there's not just challenges and negativity. There are also things to celebrate and positivity. And that is really important to hang on to.

[Joan]

Yeah. And because we are living in a time where there feels like a certain degree of intentional chaos, Right?

[Glenda]

Yes.

[Joan]

That stopping and pausing feels even more important because it gives you the opportunity to say, okay, well, in the last three months, here's how we did. Here are some of the real successes we had. Here's where we failed forward. Here's what has happened in the universe in the last three months. We have navigated that pretty damn well. And we might need to pivot here, here, and here. Right. Because there's so much going on. The need for assessment is more important to do more regularly because like that small ship and without those handy dandy meteorolog. Right. All of a sudden. Oh, my God. Is that like a tornado? Right.

[Glenda]

Yeah.

[Joan]

And so I just think you have to. The other thing I just want to say is I have so many clients that feel like all they do is go from one meeting to another meeting to another meeting to another meeting to another meeting. Yes. And they don't stop. They don't stop and even think about the meeting they were just in before they go to the next one. You have to build intentional time into your calendar to bring your group together and say, all right, everybody breathe. Everybody breathe. Okay, let's go around the table. Something that's making you happy. Right. Something you wish you had done better. Right. Get the ball rolling. If you don't make the time, you're just gonna be chasing it.

[Glenda]

Yeah. One of the biggest things I think you can do to take control in a time that is chaotic and unpredictable is to really pause and prioritize. And doing an assessment allows you to do that, because not everything is equally important. And I get it. I get it. I have been there running an organization, wanting to stop and do a retreat or something or a strategy session with my team and feeling like, but I can't do that. It's pride we need to raise this money. The reality is, if I don't stop us and say, no, you know what? We're going to do this. We're going to do this for four hours. We're going to take half a day. We're going to strategize, we're going to look at the big picture, make sure we're not missing anything. No one will do that. So somebody's got to do it. And I think good leaders, that's what they're doing right now. They're not just battling what's in front of them. They're taking a moment to pause and assess and really think about. It's not, as you said, that meteorologist that's always going to predict the hurricane. It could be you. It could be you pausing, sitting there, looking at the horizon and saying, you know what? I'm worried about something out there. We need to plan for this. It's not here quite yet, but I feel like it's coming. And let's have a conversation about it.

[Joan]

Last thought about this assessment thing, don't make it feel daunting to do it. You can't even imagine a world in which you have four hours. Okay? So do it over a virtual lunch or if you are co located, bring in bagels and feed your staff and your volunteers or whomever, do it with your board and just talk about it. It doesn't have to even be like, oh, I have to plan it, I need an icebreaker. And once you start to do it in smaller pieces, you'll want more of it. So I think that's the other thing that I would say about debriefing. Assessment, right?

[Glenda]

I love debriefing. I mean, here's a radical thought. I really do.

[Joan]

You love feedback, too.

[Glenda]

I love feedback. I just said, insatiable learner. So I'm like, tell me, tell me what went well, what could have got. Here's what I think could have gone better. Here's a radical idea. Assessments. I know this sounds crazy. Could be fun. It doesn't have to be like you were saying. It doesn't have to be arduous. It doesn't have to be boring. Find a way to make it fun. Find a way to make it a bonding experience with your key thought leaders on your team. There are really a lot of things you could do. And this work does not have to be painful. It can be fun. It's mostly not a hurricane.

[Joan]

Yeah. My aunt is my mom's identical twin sister and my mom passed away when she was 80. 9. But my aunt just turned 98.

[Glenda]

Oh, wow.

[Joan]

And so in the world of marathon versus sprint, my aunt Kathy has lessons.

[Glenda]

Is that her voice?

[Joan]

No. No. What is that? Well, first of all, the impersonation. You should play doubles tennis until you're 75 and win the over 65 tournaments. That's one thing you should definitely do. But if you can't do that, okay. She offers really very simple advice that small things. I said, what's your key? You're 98, right? She swims. She reads four books a week. She says, for me, small things are now small things. And the second thing she says is I still giggle. And humor is essential to longevity. And I think that that is actually fun. Joy, humor. You can find it. It's there. We've been finding it in discussions about colonoscopies recently. But that I think may actually tell me that we should let folks get back to work and that we should say thank you to them for spending some time with us. Wanna do a. Shall we do a quick wrap up, Glenda?

[Glenda]

Yeah. First of all, that maybe we do. Like, what do you want to say to those leaders out there right now or in their tiny boats in the open, you know, harsh waters? And I guess what I want to say to those folks is you're doing a good job. Keep going. Think about the planning that you could do to make it a little easier. Hold on to your motivation. Why did you get in that boat in the first place? And consider doing some kind of assessment because it could help course correct if you're going in the wrong direction. And I would just leave folks with one more tactical, practical thought. And I think I learned this from my mother. But sometimes when things are hard, paying attention to the things that help you that. The things that, that you appreciate, like noticing that appreciation and actually taking the step of telling other people about it can feel really, really good. And I think this is something that, you know, the helpers all know about, but sometimes we don't. We don't do it for other people as much as we could. You know, I really appreciated you in that meeting where we were talking about layoffs and. And you just kept it real and got us to think about X, Y or Z. I really appreciated that something like that and saying that to the person can be really mutually beneficial.

[Joan]

Yep. Yep. And I think that that's also about communications and authenticity. Right. And that those are key attributes of great leaders as well. So I think we leave. Why don't we leave you where we started, which is Glenda is. Did you take a walk? Did you take a walk this morning? Do you have one scheduled for tomorrow?

[Glenda]

I didn't, but I'm gonna take one tomorrow.

[Joan]

Good. And I had a piano lesson last night and it really didn't go the way I wanted it to, and I'm really hard on myself. And so I'm gonna do a little piano practice this evening, and then I'm going to watch my New York Yankees, hopefully crush the Boston Red Sox, with apologies to any Red Sox fans out there. So do whatever you can that you love to take care of yourselves, please. And thank you very much for the work that you do for joining us. Glenda, thank you.

[Glenda]

Thank you, Joan.

[Joan]

We'll see you next time. Thanks again.

[Glenda]

Yeah, hang in there.

[Gary]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.

[Glenda]

Sa.