Ep. 233: Leading Through Whiplash: How to Stay Grounded in Uncertain Times

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep. 233 - Leading Through Whiplash: How to Stay Grounded in Uncertain Times

Podcast Information:

• Title: Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
• Host: Joan Garry
• Guest: Alex Love, Executive Coach and Founder of Alex Love Consulting
• Release Date: August 2, 2025

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Introduction: Understanding Whiplash in Nonprofit Leadership

In Episode 233 of Nonprofits Are Messy, host Joan Garry delves into the turbulent landscape nonprofit leaders are currently navigating, metaphorically described as "whiplash." This episode sheds light on the rapid and often unexpected shifts within the nonprofit sector, particularly concerning diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), funding uncertainties, and the overall organizational impact of political changes.

Whiplash in Leadership: A Sudden and Forceful Shift

Joan Garry opens the conversation by defining "whiplash" as the sudden and forceful whipping back and forth that can cause injury, drawing a parallel to the abrupt changes nonprofits are experiencing. She highlights how DEI, once a foundational element for organizational success, is now facing reversals as various entities, including companies, schools, and nonprofits, veer away from these initiatives.

Notable Quote:

"Whiplash seems like an appropriate word to describe what we're experiencing right now when it comes to what is in favor and our country and what is out of favor." — Joan Garry [00:34]

Introducing Alex Love: Navigating Through Organizational Turbulence

Joan introduces her guest, Alex Love, an executive coach with a robust background in human resources, talent strategy, and DEI. Alex shares their journey from a diverse upbringing in a military town in San Diego to navigating significant professional roles, including managing a major merger early in their career and launching successful DEI programs at VICE Media.

Notable Quote:

"Whiplash is a great way to describe my experience as well." — Alex Love [08:50]

Navigating Organizational Shifts: DEI and Funding Challenges

Alex discusses the primary challenges nonprofits face amid the current administration's policies, emphasizing the uncertainty and fear surrounding potential funding cuts and policy reversals. The sudden termination of grants through congressionally approved means has left many organizations scrambling to adjust their operations and support mechanisms.

Key Points:

• DEI Reversals: Organizations are outwardly changing their language around DEI without substantive internal changes, leading to budget cuts in DEI programs.
• Funding Uncertainties: Immediate termination of grants has forced nonprofits to consider layoffs and program reductions, impacting their ability to serve communities effectively.
• Increased Conflict: Rapid changes have heightened internal conflicts, as staff members grapple with differing responses to external political pressures.

Notable Quote:

"The funding for those programs under DEI DEIA have continued to shrink over the last 12 months." — Alex Love [24:06]

Creating Supportive Environments: Practical Strategies for Leaders

A significant portion of the discussion centers on how nonprofit leaders can create supportive environments for their staff during these uncertain times. Alex emphasizes the importance of providing spaces where employees can be heard and express their concerns without judgment.

Strategies Discussed:

• Listening Sessions: Facilitated by third parties to ensure unbiased and safe spaces for staff to share their experiences and emotions.
• Wellness Initiatives: Implementing wellness days, no-meeting blocks, and regular check-ins to support staff well-being.
• Active Listening: Leaders should engage in active listening, acknowledging staff concerns and providing tangible support where possible.
• Grounding in Mission: Reinforcing the organization's mission and vision to maintain focus on what can be controlled and achieved despite external chaos.

Notable Quote:

"If we're unable to manage that, then we're unable to focus on the work, to think about the mission and vision." — Alex Love [16:26]

Leadership Vulnerability: Balancing Strength and Openness

Joan and Alex explore the delicate balance leaders must maintain between exhibiting strength and showing vulnerability. Acknowledging personal and organizational struggles without having all the answers is crucial for fostering trust and resilience within teams.

Key Insights:

• Authentic Acknowledgment: Leaders should openly acknowledge the challenges without pretending to have all solutions, which fosters a culture of honesty and mutual support.
• Empathy and Understanding: Recognizing that all team members are experiencing varying degrees of stress and uncertainty helps mitigate internal conflicts.
• Support Systems for Leaders: Leaders themselves need support, such as peer networks, to navigate their own challenges while guiding their organizations.

Notable Quote:

"This is our moment right now. Making sure that we are not upholding white dominant culture... letting folks know that we can talk about resources at the end." — Alex Love [27:04]

Final Thoughts: Moving Forward Together

As the conversation wraps up, Alex offers actionable advice for nonprofit leaders struggling to navigate these tumultuous times, especially those who may not have immediate access to consulting services. Emphasis is placed on fostering open communication, maintaining organizational focus, and supporting both staff and leadership through active listening and shared resilience.

Final Advice:

• Peer Support: Leaders should seek out fellow leaders for support and resource sharing.
• Open Conversations: Even without formal sessions, having one-on-one check-ins can provide critical support.
• Focus on Mission: Continually align organizational efforts with the core mission to maintain purpose and direction.

Notable Quote:

"We are in this together, we are gonna figure it out and we're gonna do what we can where we are." — Alex Love [37:18]

Conclusion: Together Through Uncertainty

Joan concludes the episode by affirming the collective strength of the nonprofit community in facing these unprecedented challenges. She reiterates the importance of active listening, maintaining focus on mission-driven work, and seeking support both internally and externally. The episode serves as a beacon of guidance and solidarity for nonprofit leaders striving to remain grounded and effective amidst the chaos.

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Key Takeaways:

• Whiplash Metaphor: Captures the sudden and forceful changes nonprofits are undergoing.
• DEI Challenges: Shifts in DEI initiatives require careful navigation to maintain organizational integrity and support for marginalized communities.
• Support Structures: Essential for both staff and leaders to process emotions and sustain productivity.
• Leadership Approach: Balancing strength with vulnerability builds trust and resilience within teams.
• Community and Collaboration: Nonprofit leaders are encouraged to support each other and remain mission-focused to weather the storm together.

Resources: For more insights and resources to support your nonprofit leadership journey, visit joengarry.com/podcast.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

So I consider myself lucky. I have never experienced whiplash. I haven't been in a serious accident. I did total my car once when I was in graduate school in Columbus, Ohio was coming back from a road trip alone. I remember I was blasting Fiona Apple's Criminal and I was definitely driving too fast. No one was hurt, including me. And lesson learned, don't listen to angsty feminist music and get lost in it while you're driving. It's very bad for your car anyway, apparently. Broadly, whiplash is defined as the sudden and forceful whipping back and forth of one's head, usually causing injury. Whiplash seems like an appropriate word to describe what we're experiencing right now when it comes to what is in favor and our country and what is out of favor. This has changed quickly and dramatically. Couple of examples. First, diversity, equity and Inclusion. This used to be a no brainer for any company looking to succeed in the US and on the world stage. Now companies, schools, and even nonprofits are turning away from it. The federal government has a long history of funding through congressionally approved means. I think that part is important. Through congressional approved means, programs and services to help people who need that help the most. And overnight many of those grants were terminated immediately. I could go on and on and give a lot of other examples, but I really want to get to our guest for today. I've been thinking a lot about what nonprofit folks need right now, and I believe it's someone who can help us make sense of the whiplash that we're experiencing and and survive it. Someone who knows about hr, human resources, dei, diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership, facilitation, and organizational culture change. So enter my friend Alex Love. Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your goal. Go to space for insights, advice, and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now, let's jump in. Alex is an executive coach and the founder of Alex Love Consulting. They use their deep background in human resources, talent, strategy, and DEI expertise to advise clients on best practices related to policies, procedures, and culture to support inclusive workplaces. Alex is passionate about working with strategic leaders through individual coaching and team workshops to help them navigate team dynamics, organizational shifts, and establish team cohesion and collaboration. They help leaders explore and ground their unique leadership style, elevate people management skills, and support effective team collaboration. I am so excited to welcome Alex. And in case you didn't notice from that intro, Alex uses they them pronouns. So we will be doing that. So, first question, Alex, how the heck did you get here? And I don't mean to this podcast, I mean to this point in your life doing this work. And I asked this question to all of our guests because I think understanding how you gained the experience and the wisdom that you have, both personally and professionally, will help us kind of understand who you are as you give us some really valuable wisdom and advice. So let's start with baby Alex.

[Alex Love]

Wow. Well, thanks, Glenda, so much for having me here. I've really been looking forward to this conversation today. So I grew up in a small military town in San Diego. I had no idea that the diversity that I grew up with isn't normal for all towns, because it was a military town. It means there was a lot of different folks from different places, different cultures, and a lot of mixed kids. And being a mixed kid myself, I'm black and native, and my mom is from Poland originally. And so growing up with a mixed background in a space that had a lot of mixed folks and so much diversity, it felt very normal for me. And then I left for college and found out that's not normal. Not everyone grows up like that. And I had a really unusual freshman year. I went to nyu, but I started on their London campus in a special liberal arts program. But leaving San Diego and then living in London was a huge shift. And then a year later, I moved to New York City after that freshman year to complete my degree.

[Joan Gary]

And did you really get any whiplash, Alex, from all that change?

[Alex Love]

Oh, a little bit. A little bit.

[Joan Gary]

Okay.

[Alex Love]

San Diego to London to New York. It's like we're already. We're 30 seconds into the story.

[Joan Gary]

I'm picturing it. And it's a lot.

[Alex Love]

Yes. Yeah, it's a lot. And so with these shifts, as soon as I left home, it really taught me how to be flexible and be adaptable in different environments. And then I first started my career as a HR assistant at a media tech advertising organization. And it just so happened that within a year of me starting, the organization went through a merger, and a pretty major one. And so even though I only had a year in my professional career, I was managing this merger. So dealing with handbooks and payroll and all of the different systems that you have to align and streamline in order to make sure everyone gets what they need. And so that was really challenging. It was a lot going on. But I will say it really escalated my career in terms of skill building because it was learning a lot really quickly and trying to do the best that I could. But I'm very grateful for that experience because it one, taught me so much. But two, prepared me to go to my next step, which was VICE Media, which was a lot of fun, so much fun. Until it wasn't, which is a whole different podcast.

[Joan Gary]

As often happens. We'll follow up, do another podcast.

[Alex Love]

But when I started, I was managing a small team. We had about 400 employees, and I worked to grow the team and really kind of create and streamline internal processes and structures as the organization grew. When I left in 2017, we had an HR team of 20 and a global employee base of 1700. And so it was so much growth, a lot of moving parts. And with Vice, there's multiple lines of business. So it wasn't just content creation, but it was also advertising agency. It was a production house. They do film. There was so much going on, and I was able to kind of build the way that I wanted. And thankfully, I had a very, very supportive boss. And so I was able to create a lot of programs that we didn't have. And so during my last year at Vice, I launched an apprenticeship program for folks who have been justice impacted or have been formally incarcerated. And that apprenticeship was very successful and the first of its kind in media. And with that kind of apprenticeship program, working with the center for Employment Opportunities, it really launched my career in DEI and focusing on marginalized communities and how to support folks. And then also, how do you create systems within your organization to best support folks? Right. It's not just having a job, but it's all of the other support mechanisms that are really important there. And so since I left in 2017, I started my own business. And ever since then, I've been consulting organizations on all of the processes under the Talent lifecycle umbrella, how to best support your employees, especially those from marginalized communities. And what was great about Vice is it felt, for me, at least in my role, felt like a sandbox. And so being able to create different programs that could support different communities was kind of just starting as I. As I left. But I think to your point about Whiplash, there was a lot of moving. And then I went to an organization that had a lot of moves, and then I went to another organization where I built a lot of things and also had a lot of moving parts. So whiplash is a great way to describe my experience as well.

[Joan Gary]

Alex, my neck hurts.

[Alex Love]

Does your neck hurt? A little bit. Little sore.

[Joan Gary]

Little sore over here. I'm going to admit I tend on the joke spectrum. I tend towards the dad jokes. My spouse will tell you that. So apologies here for the dad jokes.

[Alex Love]

Okay, great.

[Joan Gary]

Great.

[Alex Love]

All day.

[Joan Gary]

So what are what are some of the biggest shift I mentioned a couple, but I'm I'm curious. You've had all this experience in the private sector and in the nonprof sector. What are some of the biggest shifts you're observing from your clients and colleagues as you're kind of trying to help people navigate these waters?

[Alex Love]

Yeah, I think it's a great question and I appreciate your kind of grounding in the intro with you know, there's been a lot that's happened this year with this current administration. And so I think what has been challenging and the shifts that I've seen a lot of it is, is uncertainty and fear with what's happening next. What's going to change, what law that we thought was going to be there forever is now changed or is different. And so I think really that is the basis is uncertainty with all of these changes. But specifically to your earlier point, what a lot of nonprofits have also gone through is their funding being really impacted. And so with uncertainty and then funding as well as this political climate with so much uncertainty, I think it's challenging for folks to find their grounding. And what that has meant for some folks is layoffs and having to right size their organization. Unfortunately, letting folks go really good considering their programs and whether or not they can continue their programs and how they support the communities around them. I think those have been some real major shifts. And I think part of what has happened, which is really challenging for folks, is because there have been so many changes with this administration this year. The staff at many organizations are not sure what to do, are not sure how to engage with community, how to support their friends and family going through really hard times. And what that means inside of organizations is that there's an additional level of conflict, which I've been seeing because unfortunately, when there's a lot going on in the world and we don't know where to put it, it sometimes can mean challenges with our colleagues and different conflicts there. And I think the additional shift is because so much has happened so quickly. I think leaders are faced with making many decisions at once and decisions they were not thinking about 12 months ago.

[Joan Gary]

Even two months ago.

[Alex Love]

There's a lot of radical changes and trying to figure out as a leader, how do I one make sure the organization is okay structurally funded, but then how are my staff, Are they okay? And then also basic safety. Right. Like, are they getting their needs met? Are they safe in their location? I work with a lot of LGBTQ nonprofits that have a lot of staff that are queer and trans and bipoc, and they're potentially living in states and cities that maybe don't feel as safe for them as they did a couple months ago. Right. So how does that impact the day to day, day to day work? And so I think those, those shifts have been, have been challenging for folks.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, yeah, I have seen that also and can certainly relate to. And you mentioned the different levels. And that's what I think is. So that's one of the things that's so interesting about this moment is like, it's not just out there in the world. It's impacting organizations, individuals, families, teams, communities. It's just like every level. And I think sometimes, especially when you're a person who works at a non profit, I could say this for myself. I was always thinking about the people we serve, the community we serve. So when something happened, you know, positive or negative, I'm like, how is this going to impact the LGBT community? This is one of those moments though, where it's like. And that includes me, and that includes my staff, and that includes my board, and that includes like the counselors who are directly talking to, who are probably LGBT themselves, the LGBT folks who are like, it's. Everyone's experiencing it. It's like this additional level that folks are kind of grappling with that is really challenging. So I think setting up the environment and the atmosphere that folks are operating in is the first part of this. And then when we come back from a quick, quick break, Alex, I would love for you to tell us how people could or should be thinking about these shifts and managing them. How do people do it themselves? How do they work with consultants like you? Okay, we're all here. How the heck do we deal with this? We'll be right back.

[Glenda]

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[Joan Gary]

So I think folks are mostly familiar with the, the environment that we're operating in, non profit sector and, and the challenges that we're facing. But how should people be thinking of these shifts? Like what have you seen from your clients? Or what do you advise your clients about how to, how to kind of navigate this?

[Alex Love]

Yeah, so it's a great question. I think the first thing is remembering that this is a moment or a season and it won't continue forever, it won't last forever. There are going to be ways that we move forward in the movement and there's the two steps forward, one step back, whatever that phrase is. Right. I think that we're kind of in that moment right now. And so I would say, especially for leaders in this moment, really grounding on your values and what is important to you and really grounding in the mission and vision of your organization. Yes, there's a lot going on outside and yes, those things also impact your organization. But how are we focusing on the work? How are we making sure that we as an organization, that we as a staff are okay? And so I think some of the biggest things that have come up, especially because staff, a lot of folks, let's just say everyone, is feeling a degree of uncertainty. I think folks are looking for organizations to provide space for them to be heard and to really have someone actively listen to what they're going through and what's happening. And some of these things might not be directly related to work, but I do think it is very important for organizations to provide spaces for folks to be heard. Listening sessions, healing spaces, whatever that might be. But I think the first part of just giving folks the opportunity to be heard, to express all of the things that are coming up in their bodies. Because if we're unable to manage that, then we're unable to focus on the work, to think about the mission and vision. So I do think that's a crucial part, is having that space to listen and be heard. And then I do think that it is important for leaders to acknowledge the different events that are happening that especially impact the organization. Because when all of these things are happening outside and in the news and then you come to work and we're not talking about it at all, there's no acknowledgement, then I think it's challenging for folks to again find their center. Am I safe at work? Am I supported at work? Right where are my spaces? So I do think sports spaces and acknowledgement are very, very important. And then again, as leaders, grounding in our mission and vision and then reiterating and messaging that to staff, lots of things are happening outside, and this is the work that we do. And even with these shifts within our organization, maybe there's been budget cuts or programs have had to shift, but let's focus on what we can do. Where can we make an impact? Where can we still support our community? How can we continue to advance our mission? I think focusing on these pieces of what we can do is very important, especially in this environment of uncertainty and just challenge. And I would say a little bit of hurt, too.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Alex Love]

There's so many different things happening.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, yeah, let me. I love that answer and the components of it. And I want to break it down just a little bit because I think it's. There are a couple of pieces there that are really important. So the first thing you talked about was, like, being grounded in your values and your mission and your, you know, your vision. And so. So let me ask for all the listeners out there. So if you're an organization that believes deeply in DEI or DEIA and you. This is what you do, and you have an administration that comes to Washington and says, hey, this is not cool. What should you do there?

[Alex Love]

Mm. Mm. Great question. I think it's a big one. It's a big one. What I have seen in this space is folks wanting to be very mindful of compliance and avoiding any type of lawsuit or additional investigation or anything like that. We're already doing a lot of work, so how do we avoid additional things? And what I've seen is a lot of language changes. Language change, but not action change.

[Joan Gary]

Because that's a strategy.

[Alex Love]

That is a strategy is outwardly changing the language that we're using on websites and your marketing materials and things like that, but then not changing how the work happens internally, which I do think is important. What I will say is challenging about this moment is there is a reason why we have been so committed to dei. Deia, J, E, D, I, Jedi. Sorry. There's a reason why we've spent so much time. Oh, yeah, it's justice, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

[Joan Gary]

And the A for folks is accessibility. Accessibility, excellent. I just want to make sure folks understand the Alphabet that we're using here.

[Alex Love]

Yes, yes. And so I think it's a weird moment because you want to stay in compliance. You want to be able to focus on your work as an organization, and then simultaneously, we don't want to say that we're no longer supporting DEI because there's so many reasons why we need it. It's important. And I think the challenge that I see is what message are we sending to potential staff to other organizations about how we value DEI as an organization when we change that outward messaging? And we know why we have to change the outward messaging. But I worry, and I'm just interested about how we continue down this path. Will there be a moment where we change back? If laws and compliance change, will people go back to dei? Are we now using these new, broader terms like community and values and innovation to just kind of describe this area? And so that's where I struggle a little bit of, are we as a world, Are we changing the meaning? Are we changing these words? And what does that mean for the staff or marginalized folks, that they need more resources and support and attention in certain areas, depending on the history. And so that's my challenge. But what I've seen out in the space is folks changing language but not changing the work. Which I appreciate that the work is still getting done. But I will say the funding for those programs under DEI DEIA have continued to shrink over the last 12 months. And so I think that's the additional challenge is it's not just language changing, it's budgets changing, which then means resources and programs, which then mean our staff don't get everything that they were getting before. Our communities are not getting the same things. And so I think it's a moment of tension.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, it's real. And I appreciate you mentioning that about the funding. I think we've been talking about the LGBT community, and it happens to be in June when we're recording this. It's Pride month month in a lot of places. And there's a lot less corporate support for Pride because that was falling under the DEI umbrella. Companies are not maybe giving the same amount some companies are giving and saying, but can you just please be quiet about it? We don't want you to talk about it so much. So there. Look, I. I am not here. I've said from the beginning of this year, I can't judge any other organization's decisions about how they are navig. Incredibly tricky moment. What I hope for is that organizations who do the risk assessment and say, you know what? I don't get federal funding, so I don't need to worry about that, or, you know, I'm a fee for service. I. Or whatever. Whatever the case is, the people that can stand up and say, no, I'm I'm not going to stop talking about dei. I'm going to double down on dei that the folks that can do that do it. And the other folks who are like, look, I need this funding, I need this money to serve the community. I'm going to call it something different and I'm going to still do what I do to help my people. Total respect for that.

[Alex Love]

And I, I think that's a great point and I'm really glad that you mentioned that because not everyone has the ability to shout at the mountaintop about their values. And I think you're right. We need to do what we can where we can. Right? Yeah, I think that is important.

[Joan Gary]

I think what it's bringing up for me is like some of the other things you talked about, which is this support space for staff or for teams. I'd like to talk about that a little bit more because that seems so important wherever you land as an organization around these issues, funding, di, whatever there. Whether there's a dissonance between your public position, your private position or there's no dissonance, you know, it's like just clear. How, how have you seen. Get. Get specific for the listeners if you can. How do you create at work? I know it's non profit so we think we're more. And we probably are touchy feely and heart first and we care about the people.

[Alex Love]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

But even in that realm these are jobs, you know, and organizations. So how do you, how do you create that support space in a way that is both supportive for people to have their feelings but also boundaried in a way that makes sense for work? Any, any specific examples or concrete tips would be so helpful there, I think.

[Alex Love]

Yeah, absolutely. I think I will say I'm probably biased because I am a consultant, but I will say that it is helpful to have a third party facilitate these spaces. Right. Because 1. What is shared. A lot of times, especially when there's high emotion, folks can personalize and internalize what other folks are sharing and then it can turn into a whole different conversation that we didn't plan. But in terms of structuring those types of spaces, I think of course there's a lot of work and folks are very busy. But I do think having an hour or 90 minutes of space that is not focused on work and is just how are we doing? Is there anything folks would like to share and having it be a space of non judgment and really more of a space of just expression and then a conversation about resources. Because I think that making sure folks have some grounding at the beginning of that conversation is very helpful. I typically have some type of kind of ground rules or, you know, framing for that conversation so folks know that this isn't going anywhere. This is just a space for us to be together, be in community, at work together during this really challenging moment. I will say that I've depending on organizations and their culture, I've advised different sessions where there's maybe it's just employees that are chatting, but then there's other times where it is very important for the leader to be in the room to again do that piece of acknowledging. Right? Because it's one thing to share with your peers and you know, share the tea and say, I'm having a really hard time. It's a different thing to say things, to express what's going on with a leader in the room, to then acknowledge, I hear you, I hear you. I understand that is challenging. We are all going through a really challenging moment and then not necessarily in the same space, I think making sure that we are not upholding white dominant culture and not going straight into business or solutions, but then having either a separate space or letting folks know that we can talk about resources at the end. But then thinking about, given that we are sharing all these things that are coming up, what would be helpful? Is there a different way that we should be working together? Are there different expectations? Are there different ways we want to configure our work? So one of the things I have been seeing with some of my clients is an increase in wellness. And wellness is an umbrella term, but really trying to figure out where are their micro steps where they can support their staff, whether that means having a wellness day? Does it mean that you have a no meeting Wednesday for the organization? Does it mean that we all have the same scheduled work block together, either separate or together, but thinking of these different ways that we work together structurally to better support us during this time of challenge and transition and uncertainty. And then the other thing that I would say is it might be something that you embed into the culture. Yes, this is a moment, but maybe it would be helpful for your organization to have an hour, a quarter, or every other month where we get together and just talk about what's happening. Because I think to your point about nonprofits, because nonprofits have a mission and a vision and are connected to the community. They attract employees that are then also very passionate about the world, their community, how they're showing up to support their communities, which is different from for profit organizations where you don't Necessarily have this connection to community. And so I do think, specifically with nonprofits, being able to have a space to hear folks processing through these emotions, especially because they're big and they impact our lives and our communities, but being able to kind of have a space for that passion, because if we don't. What I've seen a lot, what I mentioned earlier, is I've seen a lot of infighting or just increasing conflict. And it's not necessarily like it's because of this executive order. It's because of our loss of funding. It's. Well, Joe said something to me, and I didn't like the way that he said that. And it creates this thing. And so I think that is also something for folks to be mindful of, especially leaders at this time is you're most likely seeing an uptick of conflict, of folks being a little bit prickly. There's an additional tension. And I think what is challenging is it makes sense that that would be coming up for folks and having our empathy for. Yes, you're going through that time. Joe's going through a time, but Sally's also going through a time. We're all having our different degrees of processing this uncertainty and all of these changes. And so being able to have a space is really helpful.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I really appreciate that, and I just want to validate that from my experience running a nonprofit. I. I guess two things. One, like, your point about acknowledging what's going on. I sometimes felt when something was going on and I was like, oh, this is huge, and this is really bumming me out, or this is like, I know this is having an impact on me or the staff or whatever. I almost. I would sometimes feel like. But is acknowledging it enough? Like, I don't have the answer, I don't have the solution? And what I learned and what I think you're saying is, yeah, yeah, that's reality. Sometimes all we can do is name. I know you all are seeing this thing, and it's upsetting, and I am seeing this thing, too, and it's upsetting to me, too. But this and not. But. And this is the work we do, and this is what we're able to do today. And we're gonna have an hour at the end of the day where folks can vent or talk to each other or, like, bring in an Alex Love and have a conversation and process our feelings. I do think the naming it, even naming it alone, acknowledging it can be really, really helpful. And I have also. I have also absolutely seen up close when the things happen out There. That impact people that they cannot control. It is almost inevitable that it will come back inside. And Sally will be upset with Joe because Sally and Joe. Sally knows Joe and. And can say something to Joe about how it upset her that he did whatever. So it's like when those big shifts are happening externally and we can't control them, just to be mindful of, like, okay, that may. That energy, that frustration, that helplessness might get funneled internally towards, you know.

[Alex Love]

Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Colleagues navigate that work situations. And like, we gotta. That's okay. But it's helpful to acknowledge, you know, to acknowledge like, this probably isn't. And it's. You're right. It's not like X specific executive order equals Y behaviors.

[Alex Love]

That's right.

[Joan Gary]

We are in a climate right now where a lot of things are swirling around, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear that's going to impact the workplace.

[Alex Love]

Yeah. And I think one of the points that you made about, you know, when you were leading the nonprofit in this moment of like, is the acknowledgement enough. I do think it is also this balance of vulnerability, the skill of vulnerability with your staff. Right. It is a balance of acknowledgement. This wild thing is happening. I also feel ways about this thing happening. And these are the ways in which we can support you. This is how we might be moving forward. And to your point, Glenda, I think being honest about leaders don't always have the answers. We don't have all the. There's a lot. There's a lot to know, and there's a lot going on. We don't always have the answers. But I think not having the answers and not acknowledging leaves a lot of potential confusion and insecurity for staff, which is the opposite of what we would like to garner with our staff. And so I think balancing leadership vulnerability is also very important in this time. Where are the moments that you are showing up to show strength and groundedness? And then when are the moments that you are being honest that you're also, as a leader, going through a hard time.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Alex Love]

And figuring out how to balance those is a skill and a muscle to work on.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leadership vulnerability right now seems a inevitable because, like, people are. Leaders are feeling it. It's just a question of whether or not you acknowledge it. And I. I get it. Sometimes I would have that voice that was like, but if you don't talk about it, maybe it's not there.

[Alex Love]

Maybe it'll go away. Can we ignore it? Yeah.

[Joan Gary]

Notice that this is happening in my experience, and it sounds like what you're saying from your expertise is that's not usually the best course of action. Actions. It does not go away. It does not disappear. It just makes it. There's like a tension if this thing is going on. Yeah. As a leader, you just do not acknowledge it. So we're almost at time to kind of wrap up here, but I'm curious, I want to make sure the listeners have kind of. From your experience, you gave us a lot of great tips already, like thinking about creating support spaces for leaders to really acknowledge what's happening. Even if they don't, they can't have the answer or influence it. And making sure that people are grounded in their mission and vision. Like what can you control? What are you doing? And. And what can you not control? And, and what do you need to, you know, you're impact. Still impacted by it, but it's. It's sort of not yours to do. Is there anything else you want to leave folks with in terms of like obviously, ideally, if a nonprofit can hire a consultant to help think through these big cultural shifts that are happening and the impact that that's having on the team in an, in an individual nonprofit or in a movement in nonprofits in a sector, that's great. If they can't do that and they're kind of navigating it on their own, is there any final words or thoughts you want to lead those folks with? How do they do this?

[Alex Love]

Yeah, well, I would say the first thing is leaders also need support. So I think agree. One of the most challenging things I would say for leaders is there are times where you feel alone in the conflict or the challenge. Right. And you're not sure who to chat with, where you could go to support and where you can find support. And I think it is important especially for leaders in this moment to find other leaders to chat with, to share resources to, you know, just get aligned with having some support for yourself and understanding that you are also going through a hard time. We all of us together. And so making sure that you are grounded in your own support systems is very important as a leader so that you can lead your organization. But I would say if you are interested in kind of creating these spaces for your staff and you don't necessarily have the wherewithal to do that in this moment, given all these changes, I do think it is important to have conversations with staff where we're asking open questions in terms of if you can't have a full listening session, but asking open questions around. Given this thing that has happened in the news how is that impacting our organization? Are there other things that we can do? But I think really having conversations with leaders and staff around, how are we continuing to do our work and what do we need to get there? But again, just really focusing on the work and then providing spaces. Maybe it's not a whole listening session with the whole staff or a subsection of the staff, but maybe it's one on one conversations. I would say check in on your people, you know, the slack messages or the team's messages to say, how are you doing? You know, is there any way I can support you at this time? Is there any way the organization can support you differently at this time? I think those types of questions are important. I will say organizations have so much going on and there's only so much we can do. But I do think it's important to ask the question and understand where your staff is. Very often when I get brought in for a climate assessment, a culture assessment, the staff are already saying the things they need but maybe they can't be heard or maybe it's so nuanced and that's why it's so helpful to have a third party. But I think when you're unable to the piece of active listening, and I know it sounds so basic, but it is so important if you really listen to what's coming up for folks, you will find where you can move and shift and help them a little bit more. And I think in this moment, really grounding on, we are in this together, we are gonna figure it out and we're gonna do what we can where we are.

[Joan Gary]

Totally. I love that that's such a great note to end on and I think really the only place to end on which is like, look, we're here, we're together, we're going to figure it out the best we can because we have to.

[Alex Love]

That's right.

[Joan Gary]

And as, as folks in the non profit space, that is what we are asked to do all the time. We just got some added challenges right now. But I for one am really grateful to the folks that help the helpers that support those leaders and support those organizations. And Alex, you and I have worked together in the past and I've seen you facilitate meetings and create these awesome cultures. And so I'm just really happy to have you here and have your insight and to all of the folks listening out there, just keep going, do the best that you can, find some support and consider that active listening that Alex was talking about. I think that's really, really helpful. We can all do that. Probably better. And it costs nothing. So let's, let's aim for that. Thank you, Alex.

[Alex Love]

Thank you, Glenda. Thank you so much for having me today.

[Joan Gary]

Absolutely. Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com podcast podcast we think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.