← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep 238: Small Gifts, Big Impact: Building Sustainable Revenue from Everyday Donors (with Vivian Chang)
00:39:17
People-powered fundraising isn't rocket-science, but it does take intention, bandwidth, and smart systems. Listen in as Vivian Chang shares how your grassroots, small-donor dollars can stabilize your revenue, build ambassadors for your organization,
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, my name is Glenda Testo. I'm the CEO of the nonprofit Leadership Lab and a senior partner at Joan Gary Consulting. I'm also a huge podcast fan, ranging from true crime to politics to well being to wisdom. I'm also a guest and sometimes a host on this podcast. For all of my career I have been living Nonprofits are Messy. As a leader, both in board and staff seats, multiple seats, I come to you dear listeners, having for decades run and walked in your shoes. I truly get what you're facing and going through and I want to help. So let me ask you a question. What if people powered donations were the bomb to soothe deep and real fundraising anxiety and over reliance on big strong institutions that are going to save nonprofits? This is what I think about. This is what it boils down to. Even though I don't run a non profit right now, I can't stop thinking about questions like that and about how to help the helpers running those mission driven non profits. Especially as the ground shifts underneath us and it seems like the forces against non profits are gaining steam. So what I think about is essentially things like funding and sustainability. And that is why I'm so thrilled to be talking with Vivian Chang, someone who has been in this world for 30 years and noticed something seemed wrong and then she did something about it and you can too. Stay tuned. Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and ex President. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in. Vivian Chang leads the Democratizing Philanthropy Project. I love that title. I love all three of those words. They partner with frontline and movement organizations to build sustainable funding through long term, reliable small donor support. She also serves as a philanthropic advisor on efforts that ensure more people have a meaningful voice in the decisions that shape their lives. Especially those who have been historically excluded from but deserve a seat at the table. Vivian has dedicated her life to building progressive power that transforms those systems and empowers low income communities of color to shape a more just world. Her advocacy has led to groundbreaking community benefits agreements and protections for low income immigrant workers. So before we Dive in to some pretty serious real talk about nonprofits. Vivian, can you share with the listeners what's not in your bio? How did you actually come to this work?
- [03:45]
B
Thanks, Glenda. Let me just start by saying I love everything about this podcast. Nonprofits are messy and they're wonderful. Right.
- [03:54]
A
And they're.
- [03:57]
B
Thank you for inviting me into this conversation with you. So my parents immigrated to this country after the laws changed in 1965, and I was born as their second daughter. And when I was a little kid, like, little, little. What I noticed was that my parents were different people when they walked out the door to go to their jobs, to shop at the store, to navigate this country. And, you know, as a little kid, I didn't really have any language or framework to really understand it, but I could see, see that it was more than just leaving their language behind, that, like, they. They, like, left bits and pieces of who they were, their humanity behind when they, like, walked out the front door. And as a little kid, I was like, well, that doesn't seem right. That's really weird. And like, yeah, that's on the path to just.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Trying to figure out, well, if that's not right, what does it take to make things right so that people can live in their dignity and in their power? And so then I spent the better part of 30 years trying to answer that question, and whether it was in organizations that were improving the conditions in the garment industry, or whether it was organizations trying to give community residents a voice in the decisions that are made that impact their neighborhoods. So lots and lots of different organizations, all great, all doing awesome work in the world, and every single one of them were challenged with this core tension of how the work was resourced. Because how funding is typically structured, at least in institutional philanthropy, is often around short term metrics and often is misaligned with the core essence and the purpose of the organization. Let me give you an example. Right? So maybe you are a funder who is. Who's got a program area around affordable housing or preventing homelessness. Yeah. You issue a letter of intent, and in that letter of intent, you say, hey, listen, grantee, prospective grantee, tell me about the policies that you have passed around affordable housing. I mean, that makes so much sense. Right? So, but outside of that. And so if I are a grant, if I am a community organization, I'm like, okay, great, let me just list all these things. Right? But outside of that funding context, if you were to run into the ED of that organization on the street and you ask that Ed. Well, what is it that your organization does? Maybe that Ed says, actually we're here to build the agency and voice of people who've been told their whole life that they don't. And it's likely that organization did that work on health issues and won those policies that then get listed on the letter of intent. But actually there's a really subtle and important distinction between here's the policies we passed and actually the core essence of how that Ed sees that organization and that subtle misalignment over time creates mission distortion. I have seen this play out again and again and again as the Ed of an organization, as a board member, as a staffer, as a funder, as a donor advisor. I have just seen, I've seen it.
- [07:36]
A
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Having for years run a nonprofit and worked with very well meaning funders who are trying to fund good work.
- [07:50]
B
That's right.
- [07:50]
A
But the metrics that they have in mind to measure that work is most often not the metrics that the organization itself would choose to measure itself by. So that misalignment, I see it all the time. Thank you for sharing that with us. About how you sort of came to be you and came to do what you do. And it resonates with me. I have a six year old and I feel like that's exactly how she sees the world in different, in different places and grateful that there are folks like you who are trying to fix this, who are trying to make it better. That's so hopeful. So I want to dive into the heart of the issue. Is there another way aside from the, you know, going to the big foundations, going to the multibillion dollar corporations, going to the rich donors and saying please give me money, please fund me, I'll do X, Y and Z, I promise. Is there a different way that might be more sustainable, more resistant to the political winds? And what the heck is that, Vivian?
- [09:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, I love that question. And the short answer is yes, there are ways. I mean, there are lots of terms that people use to describe this. I call it people powered fundraising and it's not rocket science. But it does take intention and it does take bandwidth and it does take some investment. Most of the organizations we work with at Democratizing Philanthropy Project, I'm just going to call it DPP for short. Most of the organizations we work with are people oriented organizations. Their mission based work involves working, being in, in in relationship with sometimes tens of thousands of people. Right. And sometimes that's in a service capacity. Let me do some wellness Checks in the wake of the hurricane. Sometimes that's in a democracy capacity. Let's get you registered. Or sometimes that's in a leadership development capacity. Let's give you the skills you need to organize your own block so that your voice can be heard. So what if those organizations created a membership dues program? Hey, every single election cycle we commit to you that you'll know what's at stake in the election. Clear, understandable information about every ballot proposition and candidate. If you value that, if you want that, be a part of our organization. $5, $10 a month. What if those organizations created a merchandising program? If you believe that raids that are happening right now in immigrant communities in this moment is inhumane. This bandana, wear it proudly knowing that the proceeds are going to immigrant rights organizations. What if every time there was a disaster, climate disaster. Frontline community rooted organizations who are always the first to step in to caretake to direct resources way before even the government or big national aid agencies even get on the scene. What if they were the ones we saw on social media and people knew to give to them instead of the big national aid agencies? So. So there are ways and it is possible those are small chunks of funding, but aggregated together can be super significant. $390 million moved on the ActBlue platform in quarter two this year to progressive causes and campaigns. 390 million from people who gave $200 and less.
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A
Wow.
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B
Almost none of that went to frontline community organizations. Not because there wasn't support for them, but because the infrastructure wasn't there.
- [11:43]
A
Oh, wow. So quick question that is so helpful when you say people power donations. So you're talking about small. I've heard this called small dollar donors or everyday donors. I think our friend Allison Fine defines them as anyone who's giving like $500 or below. So these are not the major donors that the nonprofit. Do you that kind of your definition as well or would you define that differently? You talked about five or ten dollars. I just want to be clear for the listeners, kind of who, who what characterizes the group. We're talking about those people. Power donors.
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B
Yeah. I mean everybody's got their slightly different definition. The way we define it is a thousand and less.
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A
Okay.
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And that metric that I noted earlier, 390 million, that metric is based off of people giving $200 and less.
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A
Yeah, that's helpful. You make me think. Vivian, I know people are listening. They can't hear this. But I am wearing, Vivian can attest, my WNYC sweatshirt which is merchandise that I received for being a $15 a month donor to NPR that serves New York and New Jersey and Connecticut. And that I think is a good, when I think of this, for folks that are having trouble grasping what we're talking about. It's. We're talking about me to npr. You know, just hundreds of thousands of people giving not huge amounts of money, but giving it consistently.
- [13:15]
B
So how I'm going to step in and say so I do, I. I can affirm that you are wearing that sweatshirt and thank you. You like the other side of the coin here that we don't talk about much because we're focused on revenue. The other side of the coin here is that every person who feels moved in their heart to give you $15 a month or $50 or $100, that person is not just a contributor to your organization. That person can also be an ambassador, a cheerleader, a defender of your organization. Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that actually is something we need right now. That is something we need right now. Right. Everybody is being called in.
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A
Yeah. Perhaps as much as the money any given person can contribute that advocacy and that being an ambassador and spreading the word is so critical right now. So Vivian, how does this actually work? How does it work with relation to dpp, to the Democratizing Philanthropy Project? When you work with an organization to get on that path to stability and sustainability, what does that actually mean? Take us through it, if you would.
- [14:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. Let me talk about two ways that people commonly come to us. Right. So let me start with what we call our accelerator program. It's kind of our signature program that we run every year. That's a big way that organizations first come into contact with us. It's a seven month program that covers all the foundational capacities you need to build the tools, system strategies to capture people powered revenue. And it's topics like how do I tell a compelling story about the work my organization does in a digital format? What is a welcome series? Like once people hit that donate button and they give you funding, what, what do I do immediately, automatically, to begin in the beginning to build trust and relationship with people who say yeah, I am psyched about the work you do get. Here's $10 or $50. What are the metrics I need to be looking at? Right. Because where, where people powered revenue really starts to get some impact is if you have high volume and if you have high volume, you need to actually have some tech and some metrics. Right. So what metrics do I need to be looking at and how do I Get my tech stack integrated. So it's a seven month program, skills based workshops interspersed with one on one coaching. Because the workshops mean nothing unless you can take those concepts and actually apply it to your own organization's context. Sure. And then we run all our programs and cohorts because turns out we learn faster and better when we are learning together with people.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
So that's the accelerator program. And the other thing, the other way that people come to us often in moments of crisis is like when people come and just call us and they just say, hey, listen. Sure. We need to build our capacity. And actually we're in this moment right now. Can you actually step in and help us execute on a program or a sprint? And so we don't just offer advice from the sidelines, even though that's really important, and capacity from the sidelines. We also, as a function of our organization, we roll up our sleeves and help get things done so that the organizations stay focused on the heart of their mission. Let me give you an example. We're working right now with an incredible group, the National Day Labor Organizing Network. Endelon for short. They are wonderful. They run a whole set of worker centers and job centers across the country for day laborers. What's powerful about that partnership is that we're in relationship with them on both levels. They are in our accelerator program this year building out that capacity, their internal capacity. And we are also partnering with them and jumping in to help implement alongside of them. In the wake of the fires that happened in Los Angeles earlier this year. They have a job center that was like right next to basically the Pasadena fires. And as the fires ripped through Pasadena, they brought together basically a volunteer brigade of day laborers that actually joined arms with the local community and went through that neighborhood to fire debris. That act of frankly, humanity and courage Inspired something like 7,000.
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A
Wow.
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B
Unsolicited donors to go on their website and donate. And it's amazing, right? And they were dealing with all the things. They were like, we don't have a real way to actually capture those donors and welcome them into our organization. So we rolled up our sleeves and like, you know what, you've got your hands full. Let us be in service of you and like, let us help you develop that.
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A
Wow.
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B
So that you can actually hold on to those donors who. Who are inspired by the work that you're doing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So that again.
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How hopeful and inspiring. I'm inspired for the organization. I'm also inspired on behalf of and by those 7,000 people. I mean, those are 7,000 people that did not just sit there, they did something sort of unprompted based on this act of compassion and heroism. And I just. That is the bread and butter of nonprofit mission driven organizations that are really trying to help folks. So I love that. So I can think as I'm sitting here listening to you, I can think of about a bajillion organizations that I love and care about. I'm exaggerating slightly a lot. I can think of a lot of organizations who may be in a moment of crisis, who had been receiving federal funding, let's say to do particular things, whether it's actually deliver services or advocacy capacity building in various arenas. So what is an organization for those folks out there in those organizations or any organization? What have you all learned about what does an organization need to know or to do to be ready for this kind of work with you all? Because I imagine it's not everybody. So how. What do you need to actually think about doing something like this with you all or on their own?
- [20:23]
B
Yeah. So what I would say is that the biggest readiness factor is actually internal because you can learn skills, you can figure out the tech with some support. Really the biggest readiness factor is internal. In a time and a moment when there is so much happening and so much that needs to get done. Like are you. Do you feel the fire to build it, to build this? Because like I said, it's you know, Willy with all capacity. Right. It. It. Capacity gets built with time and intention.
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A
Yep.
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B
And. And right now bandwidth is people's life energy is. Organization's life energy is like the most important currency.
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Yeah.
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So you know, that's what I would say is like if you are really solid in your why and you're feeling the fire in your belly, like yeah, we need to do this then. Yeah. Like everything else can get figured out.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. That is really good to know. And I remember the first time we talked, Vivian, you said something I've heard almost no other person I've talked to, leader of an organization I've talked to say you said I love our intake process. Like I love our. And I Can you just say a, a little bit about that? Because I think listeners might be out there thinking, okay, that sounds great, but I'm going to have to do like a 70 page application and be. It's so competitive. Like what do people. Organizations out there. I'm sure I know there are listeners wondering right now, I'm ready. I feel the fire. We need this. What do I do? Can you, can you just talk for a Second, about that.
- [22:11]
B
Yeah. Well, our intake process, we actually try to design it so that it's a lighter lift. Like, we ask real things. Real things. Like, you know, what database are you currently operating off of? Like, how many people on your list, how often do you email? So we do ask some real substantial things. We actually design it so that people actually get it done in 15 minutes or so. And what I would say is we are in conversation with people as a part of the intake process to try to help them sort through. Like, is this the right thing? Like, what's your why for doing this? Because, look, at the end of the day, we want to be in. This is not just about. We don't want to have as many people in our programs as possible. We want. What actually we're in service of is to make a difference for folks. So it actually doesn't serve us if people are in our programs but they're not fully aligned and want, like, they've got some mixed feelings about being in. Right. And so we help people through conversation discern, like, what's going on in your organization right now. Is this the right time for you to really double down on this? And so, yeah, and sometimes we end up. Sometimes it's like, yeah, it's exactly the right time. Come on in, let's do this thing. Yeah, sometimes it's, listen, you've got this, this, and this going on. Like, does it actually make more sense for you to maybe be involved in this other program that is not as much of a deep dive this year? It'll get your. Your feet wet. Right? Yep. Like, next year might be the better time, you know, to. Because. Yeah, because the right thing at the wrong time is actually the wrong thing.
- [23:57]
A
Totally. I love that the right thing at the wrong time is actually the wrong thing. That's true. And you said something I think is true of a lot of nonprofits. It's not about quantity. It's. It's about the match. It's about the alignment. It's not about bigger for bigger sake and more for more sake. So, listeners, when we come back, we're going to return to this point. Vivian just made about sort of the right time. Because Vivian has been saying that. That this is a great moment, actually, for organizations and their leaders to. To consider grassroots people powered fundraising at scale. So right after the break, we're gonna come back to that question.
- [24:40]
C
Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond A holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them. Drgtalent.com and tell them. Joan Gary sent you. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the Nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to up level your skills and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn more@nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.
- [25:41]
A
So Vivian, back to this question. Why now? Things seem so. It's just such a tough moment for so many people in so many different ways and I would love to hear why. This is a good moment. Moment for something good to happen.
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B
Yeah. You know, this is a moment. We're in a phase in history where unfortunately there's a lot that's at play that is cruel and inhumane and in that hardness that, that hard place that we're in, like there are real people who are witnessing what's happening and know that it's wrong and see that it is wrong and are willing to do something. I'm going to go back to that story of like 7,000 unsolicited, 7,000 people saw what Endalon was doing, that act of courage and humanity, that they were stepping into their mission and were like, yeah, that is what's right in the world. We wanna support that and we wanna be shoulder to shoulder with that. And so let's focus on those people. Like, because every single person who gives that $200 check or $100 check or $25 can also be an ambassador, a voter, a defender.
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A
Yeah, leader.
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B
This is actually what we need right now to call people in, in all their dimensions. Right. We need that. We need that in these times.
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A
I just want to completely underscore that and say, you know, I'm clearly a person. I'm hosting this podcast. I'm the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. I feel like I have access to a lot of channels to do things and make changes even. I feel like in this moment, man, I want to do more. Am I doing enough? What can I do? And there are so many people at every level who are sitting there witnessing this. You're right. And thinking, what can I do? What can I do about this? I want to do something. And I do believe everybody can do something. And that that can make a big difference. So huge. Yes to that. And it makes me wonder, how did, when, how and when did the Democratizing Philanthropy Project actually get started? Because it feels visionary in this moment that we're in right now, actually. But it didn't start now. It started before.
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B
Yeah, we started back in 2021, 2022. And the vision for this came from a set of conversations between the brilliant social entrepreneur Yada Peng and Will Rockefeller, who at the time was president of Daily Coast, a digital media platform. And it was a conversation between those two brilliant folks who still are on our board. And the conversation was like, hey, there are lots of national organizations that are fundraising off of Daily Cosis list. Where are all the frontline grassroots organizations? Why aren't they taking advantage of this? And we really grew from that conversation. And over the last three years, we've been growing, we've been experimenting, we've been iterating, we've been learning a ton about what it takes to build the infrastructure so that frontline grassroots organizations can have access to this support.
- [29:37]
A
Let's go back. We didn't plan this, but I'm curious about this. And if you have thoughts, it sounds like this answer to this question highlighted for me the, you know, asking, where are the frontline grassroots organizations? You gave an example earlier in the podcast about ActBlue and so many small donations going into this one hub for donations, but those donations not actually going to frontline grassroots organizations or individuals. Can you talk about why is that important? Why should we care so much about the front line and the grassroots? And, you know, why is it, why does it matter that those folks are getting these resources?
- [30:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So this is my personal approach and belief after having done this work for 30 years of trying to figure out, how do we make things right in the world? Here's what I would say, is that change that is most sustainable bubbles up from the grassroots. When you have a person who gets the fire in their belly is like, oh, what's happening in my town is not right? And they turn around, they organize everybody else in their apartment. Not because they have a job to do that. Maybe they do, but not because they have a job, because they actually see what's happening in their neighborhood and they see what's happening in the schools that their kids are going to, that they. That their Kids aren't reading the books that they should be reading, that they're going. They're going to cast their ballot and they're seeing like the proud boys across the street from the polling station sitting there with their guns and they are like, no, not this does not like this. This is not right. They have a why for changing this country that is like, you can't pay for that kind of commitment. Pay for that. And it's people who are actually stepping into their agency and saying, no, like, this is not the way my neighborhood in this country should be. And so I would say. And those folks that are closest to their neighborhood are the ones that actually can see the nuance of what's going on. Look, when a climate disaster happens, they know exactly who to call, how to organize, who's falling through the cracks.
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A
Actually.
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B
Yeah, like the major. A disaster. Like a disaster. Responsive plans that are happening. They know. And so they're the ones that are like, hey, listen, ISIS down the street, we need to like, they're the ones on the signal chats that are like, we gotta go right now. We gotta go right now and tell them they are not welcome in our neighborhoods.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
So it is the bedwa. It is the bedrock, I believe, of rebuilding our democracy.
- [32:45]
A
Yeah, I believe that too. I do. I believe starting, you know, those people that are closest to the problem or challenge are closest to the solutions. And you might say the people you're talking about, Vivian, are the people who will be the first to notice something's not right here. That's right. Kind of coming back to how you came to this work that you do. Something's not right. Need to do something about this. I love that. I think that's really important. So now we're nearing the end of this podcast and I, I want to make sure we don't leave without you sharing. You know, for people with short attention spans, great leaders with short attention spans, what is one? I totally understand, especially with the influx of all the information right now. It's just overload. What is one thing you want organizations to do or think about right now? So organizations. And what's one thing you want? Funders. And that can be the same person. You know, people who work for organizations. Runner can also be funders, especially when we're talking about people power donations.
- [33:55]
B
How.
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A
What do you want those two groups to be thinking about and contemplating right now coming out of this podcast?
- [34:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, there's there. We're in a time when there's a lot of incoming, so I appreciate this Question. So for organizations, I guess my provocation is for organizations to see the act of raising resources not just as survival, but as a strategy for power. Small dollars, membership dues, community rooted revenue can be an important part of how we build voice, accountability and resilience from the ground up. And I know we started this podcast with just like focusing on the dollar sign. And there's so much more than just the dollar sign right now, even though that's super important. So that's the provocation I would put forward to organizations. The provocation I would put forward to funders is to recognize that the issues that we care most deeply about are not going to be in our lifetime. It's not a failure, it's a fact. And so the question becomes, what kind of investments do we want to be making in the organizations and movements we care so deeply about? And if we're going to leave behind organizations that are really strong, that are resilient, that are going to survive, frankly, the next four and eight years, need to actually invest in that infrastructure. And this is just one part of it, right? This is all like, this is just one part of it. So, like, don't hold on to like waiting. Like, we actually need to start building the infrastructure around resiliency. We need to start building that now.
- [35:47]
A
Yes. And it also sounds like in that provocation, I love that you call it a provocation. That's just a great way to think about it. We are all, you know, it's a challenging time and we can become entrenched in our thinking and in our grooves and our patterns. And so I love a provocation to shake people out of that for a second. Sounds like you're also saying don't be overly focused on the short term outcomes or impacts. You know, I'm thinking of the organization that submits a grant and says, I'm going to get this legislation passed or I'm going to, you know, get X, Y or Z in the next year. You're really thinking, and I think we do have to think long term, long term sustainability, long term resilience, not always so focused on the outcomes that are right in front of us. Is that accurate or am I putting words in your mouth? I don't want to do that.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah, no, no, I think you're right. The provocation is to, look, there's a lot that's happening right now that is important and how do we actually address that while also being clear about the point on the horizon that we need to be building towards? You know, and I would say that it's not a. It's not a binary. It's not an either or. We need to be doing both.
- [37:09]
A
Absolutely. I feel like we should all, all of us in this moment wanting and working towards better need a T shirt or a sweatshirt that says both and not either or. We need to just do what we can and one thing does not preclude another. I am so, so grateful that you agreed to be on this podcast, Vivian, and for the work that you do trying to make the world a better place. It's been a pleasure to meet you and I know our listeners are going to love you, so I look forward to having you back sometime in the future. Any parting words you want to say?
- [37:53]
B
No, just deep appreciations for, like, what you are doing both with your nonprofit that you're leading and with this podcast.
- [38:04]
A
Absolutely.
- [38:05]
B
Thanks for being part of the community.
- [38:07]
A
Absolutely. All right. Thank you, Vivian and listeners. Hang in there. You know, stay close to your people, do what you can. And remember, you're not alone. That's really important right now. Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. As a Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com podcast we think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.