← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep: 239 ADHD at Work: A Guide for Nonprofit Leaders and Teams
00:50:40
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, my name is Glenda Testone and I'm the CEO of the nonprofit Leadership Lab and a senior partner at Joan Gary Consulting. I'm a huge podcast fan ranging from true crime to politics to well being to wisdom. I'm also a guest and sometimes host on this podcast. For all of my career I have been living nonprofits are messy as a leader in both board and staff seats. So I come to you dear listeners, having for decades run and walked in your shoes. I truly get what you are facing and going through and I want to help. That's why when I met Erica Fortescue, I felt super lucky. Not only because I have people in my life personally who have adhd, but because of how this can and does come up in the workplace as we realize we work with people who. Or we may just be ourselves. Adhd. Ish. I'll explain. This is not about diagnosis, it's about understanding and connection. And I'm really excited to dive in. Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and Experts. This podcast is your goal. Go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in. So I wanna start with something that should be obvious. Not everyone's brains work the same same way. And that's okay. In fact, it's a good thing. Estimated prevalence of ADHD diagnosis is somewhere between 6 and 16% with some studies showing that maybe a quarter of the population, one in four could have undiagnosed adhd. So chances are this will show up in your life and in your nonprofit. That's why we asked Erica to join us today. Erica Fortescue leads a professional coaching and consulting firm that delivers coaching and training for purpose driven leaders and their teams. Guided by a desire to help big idea people make important things happen. I love that. She specializes in brain based coaching rooted in neuroscience, positive psychology and and the improvement of executive functioning skills. Who doesn't need that? Her consulting clients include notable private and social sector organizations and leaders. Erica's extensive experience spanning over 20 years has established her as a leading expert in nonprofit leadership, creative collaboration and neurodiversity. Her professional journey includes senior leadership roles and at the Bay Area Discovery Museum, Breakthrough Collaborative and the award winning creative agency funworks. She's an IFC certified coach and holds degrees from Brown University and Stanford University as well as postgraduate training from NYU and UC Berkeley. One of her key areas of specialty is coaching ADHD and ADHD ish. I promise we'll explain that PC people to excel. So welcome to the podcast, Erica.
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B
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to do this.
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A
I'm so, you know, I've had the pleasure of talking to you a couple of times now and for a little while and so I am really excited to share you with the listeners. So I, I wonder if we could start kind of. And this is how I start every podcast. How did you get here? How did you wind up doing the work that you are doing now and that we're talking about in this podcast?
- [04:39]
B
Great question. Well, you know, it's really actually very personal for me, my passion for ADHD. I was diagnosed with ADHD in my early 30s and I hadn't been on no one's radar as somebody who might have adhd. You know, I'm female, I'm not especially physically hyperactive and I did really well in school. But I hit a moment that was a situation that was really difficult. And suddenly all the symptoms really came up. I was working at an educational nonprofit organization that I'd been involved with since I was a teenager and that I was deeply passionate about. I'd been the program director for about five or six years in a period of tremendous growth. And we had some transition in the development department. So I was asked to step in as an interim development director. So it was a new challenge, fun to learn new skills, big learning cur. And then the 2008 financial crisis hit.
- [05:33]
A
And in my personal life, I had.
- [05:37]
B
An infant at home and a husband who had just finished law school and was in his first big law firm job working insane hours. So, you know, I had limited sleep, I had a lot of stress. And in many. And not all of the, not all of the new things I had to do played to my strengths and I just felt like it all fell apart. You know, my working memory became tiny. You know, it wasn't just every once in a while when I'd go to the other room, I forgot what I was going there for. It was like every single time, oh, I'm going to go get a post it and stand there wondering what had happened, right? And that type of stuff was showing up in my work life too. So that was what led me to get this diagnosis? You know, I recall actually the doctor saying, well, hey, you know, you might as well do it because you, like, your background's in learning and the brain and you're just going to be interested in how the tests work. Like, okay, but here's the thing. I didn't know how it was going to go. But when I found out that I had ADHD and that for me some of the challenges were really big, it was such a meaningful moment that I can remember in excruciating detail what the clinician's office looked like, what the view out of the window was. You know, those moments when something is so emotionally important that it gets locked into your working, you know, your long term memory. Yes. And, and I really felt a tremendous sense of relief. You know, it was one of those moments I said, thank you. I knew it. I always wondered, you know, I always felt like, I always felt like the world was occurring to me in a way that was different from other people. And I myself, my whole life because I would watch other people do things that seemed to be easy and for me they were really hard. For example, I have one of the qualities of adhd, time blindness. And so for me to know how much time has passed without a clock is virtually impossible. I watch the other people in my life be on time for meetings and be frustrated with me and I'd be trying so hard to get there on time and I just couldn't. It was all of these things. I recall the clinician saying, well, you're in the bottom 0% of people performing on task, switching activities, like, oh, no wonder I get so frustrated when someone interrupts me. You know, it takes me 15 minutes to get back to my task.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So, you know, it just. But I think the most important thing, Glenn, was that it, it opened up this door to self compassion that has had a tremendous, tremendously positive impact on my life. And given that I was already immersed in this world of learning about the brain and that, you know, I have these, the, the great qualities that come with a lot of adhd. I'm super curious. I love learning. I also happen to be like a big life hacks nerd. So, so all led me to have, you know, as a, as a, as a side learning project, getting immersed in adhd. And I continued with a lot of other chapters professionally. But then, you know, recently I found myself having most of my work being one on one consulting. And it's not all with ADHD people, but I use the term ADHD ish. Because I tend to work with really high achiever people who are up to important things and non profit leaders and others are, are in a world of ambient press, there are, there are way more things than they could possibly do. And so like the situation that I was in, you know, it's bringing out a lot of these challenges and executive functioning skills and coaching to improve them helps everyone.
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A
Yeah, I really appreciate you defining that and I want to, I want to circle back to the self compassion point just for a moment. You know, my partner was diagnosed at 40 something. 40 ish. We'll use ish in this podcast with ADHD. And it was so clarifying for me, I think when we learn and for them too. When we learned this, I was like, oh, oh, this explains so much. And it really helped increase my compassion for my spouse because I was like, this isn't just, you know, willful neglect. This is like their brain works differently. So I, I really appreciate that point and I think that's been incredibly helpful to me personally and I think will be helpful to a lot of the listeners. So before we dive more deeply, since you've defined adhd, ish, can you define for us? And I, I go back and forth myself like, is it add, Is it adhd? And either way, what the heck is it? Can you just define it for the listeners? And I.
- [10:44]
B
Sure, yeah. People, casually in conversation, people say ADD or adhd. You know, the clinical diagnosis strategy is that everything is adhd, but there's three subtypes. So there's the inattentive type that is, you know, that's kind of what we would otherwise call add. This is, you know, the, the dreamers, the, the, the people who space out a bit. You know, Uncle Joe who drives gas station with the, with the, you want to, with the gas tubes still in the car, you know.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then there's the impulsive, hyperactive type. You know, this is, this is sort of the classic image of the boy running around in circles in the classroom. People who are really talkative and interrupt people, they don't seem to be able to stop. Energizer Bunny. And then you've got the third one, which is the confined type, where people have both qualities and you know, it's a neurodevelopmental difference and it affects how the attention, memory and self regulation systems of the brain operate. And there's a lot of variability in how it shows up, but it's generally characterized by higher than average levels of impulsivity and hyperactivity and a greater degree of Variability in attention. I see that instead of inattention because it's often an abundance of attention, an ability to take in the entire room, a mind having 100 ideas at the same time. But challenge when it comes comes to saying, this is the one thing I need to focus on and I'm going to sustain my focus on it. If that thing's really stimulating and interesting, you know, if it's challenging and you're super motivated and passionate, people with ADHD have the capacity to go into this hyper focus mode, you know, and perform just, you know, incredibly. And then at the same time, you know, might sit there for hours trying to, to focus on something that's just not, not as interesting, even though they know they need to do it.
- [12:39]
A
Yes, this is jama. Do you hear this? That's my spouse's name. And they, I mean, I think this diagnosis really opened the door and helped us realize like they really have both sides of this also, you know, like the can be really, like they know there's one thing they need to do and they just can't seem to do it. And then if it's something they want to do, like they're really, they're a professor and a researcher and they can dive deep for hours. JAMA uses they, them pronouns, by the way. So yeah, I just really understand that and appreciate the distinction that you're making, Erica. So this seems like a great time if you're not Erica and you're not me, to talk about how we spot and how we talk about if we do folks who are ADHD ish in the workplace. How do I identify this?
- [13:39]
B
Oh yes, it's so important, right? I mean, it's helpful to identify these ADHD ish people so we can help them. And like you said, I mean, there's a lot of people likely in your organization that have this brain type, you know, 100%. And the other thing is, a lot of people don't disclose it. And to me that makes sense. I mean, in a lot of situations it's not especially helpful to tell all your colleagues that you have adhd because a lot of people don't understand it. They might be biased. Maybe it might affect your likelihood of getting promoted. And part of my vision is that that changes in the future, but. So we don't necessarily know who it is, but. And the symptoms show up differently. Right. But I'm going to talk in some generalities just for the purpose of giving some clues that might work. So let's start with the positive. This is one of My important things, because we all have a negativity bias. Right. And I like to emphasize recognizing the wins and the talents. So people with ADHD are often incredibly valuable to nonprofits. You're the kind of person who can say, I see a solution. Other people don't. They don't think it'll work. They're not willing to try it. I think we should, and we need as much help as we can get. I'm looking for people who care. Are you in? They're dynamic, they can be charismatic. They're the kind of person that sparks the passion for the mission.
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A
Yeah.
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B
They're also often very hardworking and passionate about a cause and interestingly, often good in tense situations and in a crisis. So I think, for example, I had a client who's a cinematographer, and for him the easy weeks were a five day long, you know, filming set when he's got 200 different people that he is overseeing with lighting and fog machines and, you know, like a car chase. Right. Like, he's great with that. The really, really hard weeks for him are working at his home office without any structure, trying to figure out where to start on the logistics of planning the next project. So that's another clue.
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A
Fascinating. That's so fascinating.
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B
Right. It's this inconsistent performance.
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A
Yeah. And on that, you started on the positive side, on the challenging side. And again, I want to. I want to repeat what I said in the beginning of this podcast. It's not about diagnosis. You're not suggesting we go to work and try and find people to diagnose them. It's just that understanding this brain processing exists. And even if the person is ish, there need. Need be no disclosure. This just helps, you know, like, is this someone you're working with? Can. Can you spot these things? Or is this maybe even you not about, again, getting a formal diagnosis, but about knowing more about yourself and how your brain works or knowing more about other people and how their brains work and how you can work together. So what about the challenges that you might see with folks from adhd?
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B
Right. Okay, Glenda, play with me. Can you come up with a name for our character?
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A
Sure. Betty.
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B
Okay, let's talk about Betty. So Betty tends to turn in her skill, Her. Her reports at the very last minute. She's always scrambling to get them done. She sometimes even misses the deadline. And, oh, here's Betty arriving at the meeting 10 minutes late again with kind of papers flying out of her bag. Her. Her laptop's almost dead because she left her charging cord at home. And then she also forgot she was supposed to bring the cookies, but then she gets so excited about the thing we're talking about and share some really, really brilliant ideas, but she talks way more than her share, so other people don't get to chime in. And then you don't actually get through everything on the agenda. And then there's also no cookies.
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A
I bet Betty interrupts. Does that happen? Also, Erica, I think I know her.
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B
She does. And she. And she's, like, trying to bite her lip because she knows she interrupts and she doesn't want to interrupt, but she's so excited to add on what the other person's saying. And. And sometimes she makes connections other people don't, so she thinks she's adding on something that connects, and the other person thinks she's, like, hasn't been listening and is changing the topic.
- [18:21]
A
Oh, this is. You know what? This is the perfect place to play a game that we play occasionally on the podcast that I like to call Mythbusters, I imagine. I know there are a number of mythbusters about folks with adhd. And, Erica, you seem like the perfect person to help us bust some of those myths. So can you. Can you play this game with me and tell me about some myths people have about adhd?
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B
Sure. Okay. Myth number one. Does it really exist? Easy answer. Yes. Lots of scientific evidence.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Myth number two. Is it just, like, bad parenting or, like, I don't know, is it all the environment? No, it's actually quite heritable. There's actually research shows there's a 60 to 80% heritability rate on ADHD. So that's comparable to height.
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A
Interesting. Yeah. Okay.
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B
So I mean, that demonstrates to us this is a brain difference. You know, situations and environment affected. Part of the relief, I think, when people get diagnosed is, oh, my gosh. It's sort of like, it's not my fault.
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A
Yes.
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B
I'm not.
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A
It's sad that.
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B
Right?
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A
Like, it's sad that that's the society we live in there. Things are your fault or they're not your fault. But, yes, it's. I appreciate.
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B
I think the big ones that come up at work, you know, well, there's another one that's like, hey, maybe the ADHD people just, like, not as smart. That's not true. You know, I mean, I have my own resistance to how general intelligence tests work. But. But. But in the research on ADHD versus neurotypical people, both groups have the exact same bell curve in terms of how they perform on these things. So the difference is these executive functioning challenges, things like time management, things like organization, self regulation. Another myth, I think the biggest and most harmful myth that can come up in the workplace is that they're oblivious to their, to their behavior and how it affects others and they're also just not really trying. And I'm sure sometimes that's the case, but I think the vast majority of the time that's not it.
- [20:43]
A
Yeah, I, I, I feel that one personally I, that the diagnosis really helped with my self compassion to my partner around that my partner is brilliant, smarter than I am and you know, if I have a thing like honey, please, when you mow the grass, please take the, put the grass clippings in the garbage. This is a real example, folks. And like it just doesn't happen. And my first thought is like, why, Like I know jam smart. Why is this not. I guess they just don't care. They're just not trying. They're not. But this, this is your point. That's, that's not usually, and I have learned directly from my spouse that is not the case. When I get to the moment where I say jama, the grass clippings are still in the lawnmower and it's getting disgusting and moldy and I'm going to fix it, they feel terrible because what they say to themselves in that moment is like, oh man, I know I'm supposed to do, why did I not do that? What is wrong with me? So I say say a little, a little bit more and, and some other myths. I know this isn't the only one, but I just want to, with a personal example, I want to say I have, I have come to know this to be true, that when I do remind my spouse of something, nine, 10 times out of 10, they know it's just harder. Their brain works differently. They did not get to do it.
- [22:18]
B
That is such a good story. You hit the nail on the head, really. Okay, let's make up another character. Can you give me another name?
- [22:27]
A
Sure. How about Chantel?
- [22:32]
B
Okay, so let's imagine the scenario where your organization has a new and complicated database system and Chantal dives right in. She is the first one to figure it out. And then she even figures out how to add all these bells and whistles and make it automated. So she's the leader that inspires everybody else to get started using the technology. And for the first couple months she's on it. She's got her data entered early and it's super great for the person who's dealing with the data but five months later, kind of a different story. So five months later, she's two months behind on entering the data. So the myth here might be she's sort of disrespectful to the person who needs it. She's not trying because, you know, she knows how to do it. And in fact, you know, what might be happening is hits on her to do list every day and she is so frustrated with herself that she can't do it. And she sits down to try to do it. And it's no longer novel, it's no longer challenging, it's important, but, but she can't quite conjure up enough dopamine to be able to have her brain stay and sustain, focus on it to finish the job. And she is so embarrassed that she can't do it because she feels like this is like such a basic thing. She feels like she can't even explain to other people that, like, I don't know, I sat down, I sat there for an hour. I couldn't do it. Like, you know, so I think it's, so I think it's useful to understand that, you know, Russell Barkley, who's one of the foremost experts in adhd, points out, you know, he says one of the essential experiences of ADHD is I know what I need to do. I just don't seem to be able to do it.
- [24:27]
A
I feel that in my heart. Yeah.
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B
And there's another statistic that really hit me recently. So it comes from the work of William Dobson, and he talks about the fact that on average, ADHD kids by the time they're 12 have heard 20,000 more critical or corrective messages than their neurotypical peers.
- [24:52]
A
Oh, I thought my heart was, was soft and mushy before. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for sharing that.
- [25:01]
B
I mean, so it's like, it's, it's constant. And no wonder a lot of people with ADHD are really sensitive to criticism because they've been getting it, just these little micro criticisms their entire life. You know, and frequently people know to mask that in the workplace, but understanding that, you know, leaning into the recognition and the praise, keeping it positive, you know, it's like, it's like sometimes if you want to talk to somebody who has ADHD who's, you know, kind of not performing great in certain things, you can just ask them, you know, if there's anything they feel like they're not doing their best in, and they're probably so self critical that they'll tell you about that and 10 other things you know. Yeah. And the nice thing here is it puts you in the situation of being the champion, you know, puts you in the situation of saying, wait a minute, reality check. You did a pretty good job on those nine things. But that one, I think it's worth giving you support in.
- [25:54]
A
Yes, yes. I'm so glad that we're getting so specific about this because I really do believe, you know, my own experience aside, that everyone knows someone who, who probably has ADHD or is ADHD ish in their home or in their workplace. And it's really helpful to know, know to, to have a better, deeper understanding and to start to normalize this so there isn't shame or stigma or, or any of that embarrassment. What I want to do right now is take a quick break and then when we come back, I'm really excited to talk about how do we create environments like nonprofit organizations, for example, that are supportive of people with adhd. So, so these folks can really shine and just lean deeply into all of their amazing skills and talents. So we will be right back.
- [26:54]
C
Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them. Drgtalent.com and tell them Joan Gary sent you. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the Nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn more@nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.
- [27:54]
A
So we are back. And now that we know what ADHD is and what it isn't and how we can spot it in the workplace, I'm really excited to talk about what we can do about it for ourselves, for people who report to us, for people we report to, whatever the case may be, all of the above. What can folks do in the workplace around adhd?
- [28:21]
B
There's so much. This is why I love being on this podcast, because I can share some of the tips.
- [28:26]
A
Yeah.
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B
Well, let's start with if you're supervising employees who fit this profile. So, you know, one thing is I find it helpful to, you know, everyone's unevenly talented, but I find it helpful to look at these ADHD folks as very unevenly talented and make it okay that they're not great at certain things and find ways to play to their strengths because often those talents are pretty incredible. So that means I think, thinking about their job description and wondering if their role plays to those strengths, can you as much as possible get them into things that they are interested in? It's an interest driven brain, things that they're going to do well in. And can you throw them a few other extra projects that are going to, that are going to bring out those talents and give the organization a lot? You know, I used to have this reputation as the ninja Networker because I just love meeting people, right. Like this was one of my strengths. I love going to a conference, I don't know anybody in the room. And this is going to be fun. I'm going to meet 40 different people, I'm going to get their business cards, you know, figure out who might be interesting connections. And then I would cringe because I did all of that and then it'd be like a month later and I had all the business cards and I hadn't actually sent the little notes. And it's so easy to send the notes.
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A
Right? Yes, yes, I know what you mean.
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B
I call it the 90% done problem. Right?
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A
Yes.
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B
So I think as a supervisor you might look for ways to offer them help on some of that stuff. Right. Like frequently it could be something that is easy for another person to do. Organization. You know, I finally asked if I could use an intern's time to. I took a picture of all the, of the, of all the business cards and I said can you type these all into the contacts and can you do just a simple one sentence email that is prepped for me and I can add one personal note and we just get something out to them. And it was so easy because somebody else helped me and on my own I was facing this like we call it the, the wall of, of the wall of awful. Right. Because I was like, it took me longer because I was so frustrated with myself that I couldn't do it. So I think you want to help people avoid the wall of awful. And I'll share another, another moment that might. That's a really good one. So, you know, I'm this big believer in the mission moment. I mean I, I feel like every board meeting should have a moment story or a detail is shared. And it's the kind of thing where the room gets quiet, you get goose, goosebumps on your arm, your heart gets bigger and you are just filled with gratitude for, for the privilege of doing this work and you are filled with energy to keep doing it.
- [31:14]
A
Yes.
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B
And it takes a certain person to be able to deliver something like that in a really powerful way. And it doesn't have to be the CEO and even really junior employees, but ones who have this charismatic dynamic in front of people, quality that might be a good role for them. So think about those things. A couple other things. So communication. One thing to understand is this challenge with working memory. So working memory is. Working memory deficits are very common in adhd. So working memory is like you're super, super short term memory, right? Working memory, you've got short term memory and you've got long term memory. So working memory is like the whiteboard of your brain where you've got stuff there but it's written in disappearing ink. You know, like the two factor authentication that you get. And then you have to like say the six digit number over and over when you're going from your phone to your computer, right. And then your spouse interrupts you halfway and you freak out because now you have to do a new one, right? So the solve is write it down, write things down and give them a moment to write it down on the spot. So you think about this sort of, you know, like innocuous example where you like, you bump into your direct report in the hall and you say, oh, this saves me an email. Could you send me the report on Wednesday instead of Thursday? Because I'm going to be out of town and I really want to make sure I look at it. And they say, great, that work for them. While they are walking back to their desk, somebody waves to them and gives them a compliment on their shirt.
- [32:45]
A
Oh gosh, it's gone. It's gone.
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B
Promise. So, and I think at the end of one on ones, at the end of group meetings, it's so powerful to say, let's take a moment so that everyone can pull out their to do list or their calendar and just have a chance to write down what you've committed to do.
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A
Yes, I. This is a good moment to maybe say something I've been thinking as you've been talking, which is these things, right, like seem like things that would be good for every workplace that cares about the human beings that are in that Workplace. So any nonprofit organization that is looking to create a culture that is people centered, doing things like what you're talking about, giving people a moment, not expecting, like, no, your day is back to back meetings and you gotta just figure it out how you get things done and remember them and what that looks like, but actually giving people a minute to say, okay, we just had this meeting, everybody pull out your to do list, whatever that looks like, and write down what you need to do. Seems like a good thing in general. Would you agree with that sentiment? Do you often find this.
- [34:06]
B
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah.
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A
I love that.
- [34:12]
B
And I think the other thing I'll share in the supervising people that is similarly relevant to everyone is everybody's got a different brain. You don't know what the other person's experience is and you don't know what kind of help they need unless you ask them. Yeah. Now what's, what's kind of fun about the ADHD folks is that if you ask them what would really help you to, to do your job as best as you want to, you might be totally surprised by what they need. You know, so some of the ones my, my, my clients have asked for and that might. Okay, so it might be like, could we move the fan so it's not next to my desk? Because the, the sound of the fan, it's so cognitively draining for them to, to filter out the sound of the fan that it really interferes with their productivity. Yeah, easy to do. Could I possibly have your admin book my airplane and my hotel? Because I keep going down a rabbit hole of, of looking at like 10,000 flights and 10,000 hotels and it's so inefficient and, and it's taking me four hours. And I know your admin would like just pick it right away. Could I have a couple hours in the week? You know, could we set it up for our team that it's deep work time and we have no meetings and we can't grow meetings on other people's calendar so that we have the opportunity to not have to do task switching and I can actually get stuff done. Can it be okay? Similarly, I mean, maybe if it's not deep work time, that I'm not obligated every single day to be on slack constantly. You know, I mean, maybe for some projects it is, but, but it's like that's another common task switching. And there's this culture sometimes it doesn't need to be there. That's like you're supposed to respond right away.
- [35:55]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's hard for humans. I think ADHD ish or not, that kind of pressure, if it does not have to be there, is really stressful. I'm curious, kind of on the, on the flip side of this, I've certainly experience this. How do you, what do you do with the folks who are ADHD and like super talkative, like more on the maybe hyper side, like, and you know, they have good things that they're doing good work, they have good things to say. But you're like, I have 30 minutes to talk to this person and get what I need. How do you, how do you handle that as a super or as a colleague?
- [36:43]
B
Such a good question. And especially like you say you have compassion, right. And they probably have timeliness. So they have no idea that they're talking for 30 minutes. Right.
- [36:51]
A
I know they do. I get it.
- [36:54]
B
So I think there's a couple, there's a couple of things that might be going on. The first is sometimes people really love hearing a lot of details and then they just assume other people like to hear a lot of details. They make connections that other people don't. So it seems to you like they're jumping all over the place, but in their mind they're kind of going logically, even though it's totally nonlinear. And so you want to help those people be succinct and so you can give them some structures that help them be succinct. You know, I know one manager who just set it up so that, hey, before we do our one on one, send me an email with three things that you need most from me this week. And that set up, set it up so that the conversation could be about exactly how she could give those things. And then there's the other type that's like a verbal processor, right? So this is somebody who really gets to a better idea, makes decisions when they can talk it through with somebody. And so the verbal processor conversation is sort of comically one sided. Right. It's like, it's like I want to talk this through, but I'm not actually asking for you to give me advice. Like I just need a good listener who may be a thought partner. But, but, but at the end of this conversation I'm going to feel like I know what to do. That can be really time consuming. So, so, so with there, I mean, I think verbal processors, you know, help them find other verbal processors and make it even. You know, maybe they go for a walk, maybe they chat when they're doing something else. The other thing about that is, you know, so there's multitasking, which is like, you know, doesn't work because you're, You're. You need cognitive focus for things. But there's also this thing called back tasking, which is like, yes, you can fold laundry while you're watching tv, and yes, you can drive home on your commute while somebody you work with just, you know, talks aloud. So you can also look for times that it doesn't really interfere with the critical times, but also give them the benefit of that.
- [38:45]
A
Yeah, those are such good, tangible ideas. I really. I really, really appreciate that. So I'm thinking we haven't talked too much about this, but what if. What if you are a listener of this podcast right now and you're finding yourself saying, I think this could be me. I think I could struggle with some of this. Some of this stuff. How do you. How can you sort of manage yourself if you suspect that this might be something that. That you might be adhd? Ish.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with being able to be clear and almost in like a scientific way of, okay, my brain works differently, and as a result, I'm really good in these situations, and I have a harder time in these situations, and I thrive on doing this kind of task, and this kind of task just takes me longer. I get really frustrated. And this is actually, like, you don't have to disclose to your colleagues that you have adhd, but it's very helpful to be able to explain yourself as an unevenly talented person and let people know in advance if there's flexibility. These are the kind of projects I'm going to do better at, and I'm a little embarrassed about it, and I'm working on it, but being on time for meetings is really hard. But. But, hey, like, I give you permission to nag me. I know you wouldn't otherwise do it, but I really do want to be at the meeting on time, and I just lose track of it. So. So helping people know how to help you is good. I think the other thing is, like, how can you make yourself so incredibly valuable to your organization by playing to your strengths that everyone is willing to support you? You know, that it's a. That it's a huge net positive to have you on the team, and how can you build the kind of relationships, be generous and kind and compassionate to everyone else so that they. They shift from being people who are annoyed by your behaviors to being, like, your biggest fans? You know, it's sort of like, you know, it's different when it's like, okay, there's this annoying lady in the fundraising department who's always writing her grant reports at the very last minute. And it just pushes me into a corner. Right, Versus Erica is cramming right now to try to get the thing done. I know she's worked hard on it. I know it's hard for her. How can we help her?
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's really helpful. Something's coming up for me in our conversation which is around self reflection. And I've always kind of said as a manager that, and this is, this is separate, I don't think, but you tell me connected to adhd. But if you are a person who is highly self reflective and can see, and that probably would be most people with ADHD and can see, oh, I'm strong at this, but I really struggle in this area. If it's a safe work environment and you can verbalize that, that goes a long, long way. Like not everybody's good at everything. Whether you have ADHD or not and being able to express that to your colleagues and sort of create a broader environment where you know, okay, if it's a time crunch, we're not going to this person because they struggle with that. We're going to this person because they really excel in that moment. Like it's such a better environment for everyone. I wonder if you might leave us, Erica, with, with your thoughts on kind of how do you like, like the meeting, a non profit meeting of which there are many, many of them. How would you, just to break it down a little bit more granular, how, how do you structure a meeting in a way that is good for folks who are ADHD ish and probably better for everyone.
- [42:37]
B
Thank you for asking. You know, when I'm not one on one coaching, the main thing I do is designing and facilitating board meetings and strategy meetings. And I just love to do. And the thing is, meetings are expensive, right? Like let's say you've got, you've got 20 people in the room and, and the average, you know, hourly rate, if you divided it that way would be 50 bucks. So it's a thousand dollar meeting. So, so you got to do something that's worth that investment. I think there's four components to a meeting that's really successful. It starts on time and it ends on time. Everyone leaves more energized. Yes, everyone leaves having participated and having shared their insights and everybody leaves clear on what actions they are now supposed to do. And so some, some granular tips on how to make that happen?
- [43:25]
A
Yeah.
- [43:26]
B
First of all, a lot of organizations have a default meeting time that's 60 minutes or 30 minutes.
- [43:32]
A
Yes.
- [43:32]
B
But you know, when you, when you go to the therapist or when you get a massage, you know it's 45 minutes or 50 because they need transition time and really have to start the next one on time. So I encourage people to think about setting up a standard where you have 50 minute meetings, you have 25 minute meetings. It creates a reasonable amount of transition time and a little bit of buffer if you, you have to go over by a couple minutes. So motivation. So everyone leaves energized. The mission is at the forefront. Right. You're always adding in the why we need a new database because we're going to be able to serve twice as many clients and won't that make a difference? Right. And having, if it's appropriate, those mission moments and a little thing to share and it doesn't have to take up a huge amount of time. I mean you might say, hey everybody, pair up and just share one thing you are celebrating this week with the other person. And we're going to do that for two minutes. And that strategy leans into the next one, which is everyone has participated and shared their ideas. And I think the main thing here is you don't want to allow a situation where the super talkative people get the microphone and don't let go of it. Right. And, and it's a lot of these like facilitation kind of like teacher techniques. I highly encourage you to have post its and Sharpies in the room. And if it's, I mean it's really cool in zoom, they've got post its and all kinds of setup, whiteboards, you know, index cards kind of thing. So if you ask everybody to spend two minutes thinking about what they think is the biggest issue you need to address in the new strategic plan. Think quietly so they're not having to, to come up with a good idea while they're also listening to somebody talk and write it down, which also helps people be succinct. Then you've got a document and then two or three minutes later you've got 20 different written down thought through ideas that you can use. Everyone has participated. And then, and then you might add onto it, you know, the sort of think pair share strategy. Right. You might add on to it, okay, partner up with the person next to you and talk through what you came up with. And so this way you know you've been listened to and you know you've been heard and it Gives you a chance to, you know, if you need to verbally process, make it better. And then together there's that process of filtering, right? I mean, if you have a little bit of sharing or if you put them all up and give everybody a moment to, you know, put some, put some stickers on the ones that really seem important, you have a way of converging on the ideas that are most important, leaving with clear actions and knowing what you're supposed to do. So part of this, I think is helped by having a timed agenda. The timed agenda.
- [46:22]
A
So people know I love the timed agenda.
- [46:27]
B
And you have planned in advance how you want to allocate the time. And the other trick is you've planned in advance what you want to drop or cut short if you end up spending more time on one of the things. Because what that does is it allows you to not cut short the closure moment or not just cut short whatever happened to be at the end. And so the closure moment is say five minutes or whatever you need in which you do that thing. You say, okay, let's have a big everybody sees it who and do chart and let's document the big takeaways, who's in charge, what they're going to do. I'm going to give everybody a moment to pull out their to do list or their notebook and write it down. And then for anybody who's doing it in a pair or needs to set up a meeting, this is a chance to just sit next to each other and come up with a the time that you're going to do that meeting rather than do it in a mess of email.
- [47:16]
A
That's brilliant. Brilliant. I love that. I think that. I mean, as we said earlier, this is one of those things where I'm listening to you and I'm like, yes, I could see why this would be helpful with ADHD ish folks, but also helpful for everyone. Like clear is kind. I think that's Brene Brown that says that and it's true. It allows us to understand expectations and what the other person is thinking. So it's so incredibly helpful. I feel like I have learned so, so much from this conversation. Erica and I suspect folks will be listening, thinking of people in their lives, thinking of people in their work, thinking of themselves perhaps. And if they wanted to reach you and get more information, what's the best way for them to do do that?
- [48:10]
B
Sure. You can look for, for my email at my website, EF Coach and just shoot me a note. I love hearing from people. I mean, for me, you know, I have a limited amount of time that I can do one on one with people and I wanna, I wanna help everyone. I mean it's such a mission for me to educate people and help build self compassion and, and an understanding.
- [48:36]
A
I appreciate that.
- [48:37]
B
And also, you know, you can, you can check out, I sometimes organize groups, co working groups where people have some, some structure. You know, we call it body doubling. So you're, you're doing your own thing, but you're doing it, you know, you're sort of declaring 30 minutes, I'm going to work on the data entry and, and, and I'm going to report back if I did it or not. And you're not going to judge me, but I've told you I'm going to do it. You're working at the same time and if I got up to go get myself a cookie like that, that would be a little weird. So you can also look into some of, some of those. Yeah, some of those that I lead.
- [49:09]
A
Awesome. And we will, for the listeners, we will list all of your information in the show notes how folks can get in touch with you and learn more. But this is incredibly, incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Erica, and for helping make the world a better place. We appreciate it.
- [49:30]
B
You're so sweet. It is a privilege to be on this podcast. I love listening to it and it's been such a treat to be here. So thank you for that.
- [49:40]
A
Okay, bye everyone. Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate through the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast we think you'll find a lot of helpful things that there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.