Ep 240: NEIGHBORS FIRST: HOW TO FIND COMMON GROUND with Garrett Cathcart

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofits Are Messy

Episode 240: NEIGHBORS FIRST: HOW TO FIND COMMON GROUND with Garrett Cathcart
Host: Joan Garry
Guest: Garrett Cathcart, Co-founder and Executive Director, More Perfect Union (MPU)
Date: November 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the challenge of building genuine connections and finding common ground between people of differing backgrounds, beliefs, and lived experiences. Joan Garry interviews Garrett Cathcart, military veteran and co-founder of More Perfect Union, a nonprofit fostering civic engagement and community connection through in-person gatherings (“Brickyards”) focused on service, conversation, and local action. Together, they discuss the need for new platforms of community belonging and unity in an increasingly polarized America—and how nonprofits can be powerful agents for reconnection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Connecting with Neighbors (00:00–02:47)

• Joan Garry shares her personal story about diversity and superficial neighborly relationships:
  “We joke that we bring diversity to our town… But you know what? We really don't know how to talk to our neighbors about current events…” (00:22)
• Cathcart emphasizes the growing disconnect:
  “Neighbors don't know how to talk to one another.” (00:59)

2. Garrett Cathcart's Origin Story & Journey to MPU (04:36–11:28)

• Cathcart describes his path from military service to the nonprofit sector, seeking purpose and community after returning home.
  • Initial resistance: “I don't care about veterans. I know I am one and I'm not going to work a nonprofit. I'm not going to be poor. But thanks for the thinking of me.” (05:09)
  • Discovery: “I miss purpose, community, camaraderie… I didn’t know what those words were at the time. I just knew I was unhappy…” (05:37)
• The founding of More Perfect Union:
  • Inspired by co-founder Jake Harriman's observation on US polarization after returning from years abroad.
  • Veterans as unique bridge-builders—institutionally trusted and experienced in working with diverse teams.
  • “How do we leverage this untapped resource in our country of military veterans to help unite the country from both political sides? Because veterans are ... the only remaining institution that polls about 70% of trust between both political demographics.” (07:49)
• From a whiteboard idea to reality:
  “He had been interviewing me the entire time without me even knowing it… you have two months of runway, we have to raise the rest.” (09:16–09:53)

3. MPU’s Community-Building Model: Service, Social Connection, Civic Engagement (11:28–16:09)

• Three core pillars:
  • Social Connection: Fun, non-political gatherings (pub nights, concerts, games) to organically foster relationships.
    “We never ask you how you voted, but we don't talk about politics. That's really scary and that doesn't sound fun… I'm going to start to build a relationship with you.” (12:53–13:18)
  • Service: Working together on community-defined projects to build trust.
    “While we're serving together…we're talking about our kids… and we're also building trust with the community.” (13:57)
  • Civic Engagement: Encouraging local ownership and action.
    “I'm not talking capitol in the White House… but, like, how do you fix parking on your street? Potholes? Stop signs?” (14:15)
• Focus on humanization over division:
  “We’re dehumanizing each other with our social media feeds and our news stations, and the other side is the worst… we're humanizing each other.” (15:23–15:26)

4. How Brickyards Work (16:11–18:56)

• “Brickyards” are MPU’s adaptation of traditional structures like Rotary or VFW clubs—updated for a new generation.
  • “A brickyard is a place where you build stuff… It's gritty, it's dirty… It's hard work, but it's fun sometimes too.” (16:22)
  • Locally led, tailored to each community’s character and needs:
    “What would you go to on a Saturday night or Sunday morning?” (17:10)
• Inclusive—both urban and rural, left and right:
  “We legitimately have conservatives… small towns… rural areas… not just the big cities.” (17:22)

5. Aspirations & Potential Impact (18:56–21:54)

• Cathcart envisions Brickyards as “the town square”—an accessible, nonpartisan space for problem-solving and relationship-building in every American community.
• “It becomes this idea, it's hope personified…” (20:20)
• Addresses the “loneliness epidemic” and provides pathways for new friendships and community engagement.
  “That's where it starts, right?” (14:38); “Where am I going to make new friends, right? Go to a bar by myself? That seems weird, right?” (22:54)

6. Community Empowerment — Local Ownership & Choice (23:19–24:11)

• Projects are user-driven and empower local leadership:
  “You get to what flavor service are we doing this month … it's kind of a one stop shop for awesomeness.” (24:11)
• The mechanism is not just service, but bonding and self-directed action:
  “Those are the mechanism and platform of how we bond people together and build community.” (23:19)

7. Memorable Story: Glen Rose, Texas Brickyard (27:15–30:39)

• A rural event combining a clothing drive, food, and a pow-wow, with diverse groups (including local militia members and recent immigrants) connecting over shared humanity:
  • “She donated one of her own pigs, had someone barbecue for 18 hours and a huge smoker… a steady stream of Hispanic immigrants coming, toys and food…” (27:38–28:14)
  • Humanizing moment: “It was just people being human. I watched it from kind of afar… a beautiful interaction.” (29:52–30:06)
• Demonstrates the power of local design, inclusiveness, and breaking down assumptions.

8. Evaluating Impact & Theory of Change (31:12–32:53)

• MPU uses academic tools (Social Cohesion Index Measure) to track outcomes like “intergroup empathy, intellectual humility, and values based listening.”
  “We're not changing people's political opinions… We are measuring for intergroup empathy, intellectual humility, and values-based listening.” (31:25)
• Currently developing new impact tools with Stanford University to quantify depolarization and civic engagement.

9. Relevance for Advocacy Organizations & Nonprofits (32:53–37:18)

• Applicability for others: nonprofits often focus on one side of the aisle—MPU’s methods can inspire broader engagement.
• Cathcart’s political philosophy:
  “I've been a member of and voted for both parties. I'm politically androgynous myself. Right. I don't know what I am anymore. I'm independent.” (34:45)
• Importance of diverse, representative teams and reaching beyond one’s comfort zone:
  • “You can’t all be liberals in a room hugging each other and saying, we're fixing it. Right. If we're being honest, you know, you need everybody.” (35:18)
• “Humanizing each other and building personal relationships to me is one of the most powerful ways to get anything done.” (36:14)

10. The Power and Responsibility of Neighborliness (37:18–41:29)

• “What would you do for your neighbor regardless of who they voted for?” (37:35)
• Reflecting on post-9/11 unity as a model for reclaiming shared American identity:
  • “Remember the feeling after 9/11… I don’t care who you voted for… We were Americans before we were anything else.” (38:34)
• Small acts of outreach matter—rebuilding the civic fabric begins with hospitality and genuine invitation.

11. How to Get Involved & Final Inspiration (41:29–44:25)

• Get involved:
  • Sign up at mpu.us
  • Open to all; not just veterans.
  • Remote engagement options for those outside current Brickyards.
  • “Your time is the most important resource you can give.” (41:57)
• Joan’s final reflection:
  • “Meaning and purpose is right there waiting for you ... what you have done by sharing this story today is illustrate that... there is, in fact, something you can tangibly do to actually take this polarized world of ours and try to make it feel human and American, truly American in the fullest sense of the word.” (42:51)
• Garrett’s closing thought:
  • “But the work I’m doing now is more meaningful for this country… It is going to repair and rebuild the social and civic fabric of the country.” (44:02–44:16)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Neighbors don't know how to talk to one another.”
  — Garrett Cathcart (00:59)

• “Veterans are… the only remaining institution that polls about 70% of trust between both political demographics.”
  — Garrett Cathcart (07:49)

• “We never ask you how you voted and we don't talk about politics. That's really scary and that doesn't sound fun...”
  — Garrett Cathcart (12:53)

• “We’re humanizing each other… the problem is, on the other side of that spectrum… we're dehumanizing each other with our social media feeds and our news stations...”
  — Garrett Cathcart (15:23)

• “A brickyard is a place where you build stuff. It's gritty. It's dirty. It's hard work, but it's fun sometimes too… and no one else had the name.”
  — Garrett Cathcart (16:22)

• “If we can do this 30 million times across the country, then we got a shot, right?”
  — Garrett Cathcart (29:34)

• “What would you do for your neighbor regardless of who they voted for?”
  — Joan Garry (37:35)

• “But the work I’m doing now is more meaningful for this country… It is going to repair and rebuild the social and civic fabric of the country.”
  — Garrett Cathcart (44:02–44:16)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:00–02:47: Joan's opening story; Cathcart on neighborly disconnect.
• 04:36–11:28: Cathcart’s personal and organizational origin stories.
• 11:28–16:09: MPU’s three pillars of connection.
• 16:11–18:56: How Brickyards work in practice.
• 27:15–30:39: Glen Rose, TX story—diverse groups sharing service.
• 31:12–32:53: Evaluating impact.
• 34:30–37:18: Nonprofit, advocacy and political lessons.
• 37:18–41:29: Reflections on neighborliness, responsibility.
• 41:29–44:25: Joining MPU; meaning and closing words.

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is direct, warm, and pragmatic, balancing concern about polarization with genuine hope rooted in human connection and practical action. Both speakers highlight the need for humility, curiosity, and courage in reaching across divides—not just in nonprofits, but in everyday community life.

Call to action:
The episode closes by inviting listeners—regardless of background—to take tangible steps toward community engagement, emphasizing that relationships, open-mindedness, and shared effort are the true antidote to polarization.

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More info & join a Brickyard:
mpu.us

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This summary is designed for nonprofit leaders, fundraisers, and community organizers seeking actionable ideas and inspiration for bridging divides and driving local impact.

Transcript

[Joan Gary]

So my wife and I own a home on the Jersey Shore in a very small town of less than 3,000 people. And the vast majority of the residents there are Irish or Italian Catholics. I like to say that their names either begin with an O or end with an O, but the residents of our town are all so nice and friendly. I know the name of everyone on our block. We know their dogs, sometimes even their kids and their grandchildren. But we don't really talk. Like, really talk. We joke that we bring diversity to our town. Gay, Jewish, active members of the Democratic Party, all in one house. Boom. Diversity. But you know what? We really don't know how to talk to our neighbors about current events, about the impact of those events on our lives. We talk instead to the folks who we know are like minded. It's just easier, right? Makes you feel more secure, affirms your positions. And so we seek out gatherings where we find our people. And I know that my experience is not unique. My guest today, Garrett Cathcart, says simply, quote, neighbors don't know how to talk to one another. End quote. As a military vet and a man who deeply believes that we have so much more in common with our neighbors than we think we do, he chose to create a new model of civic engagement, creating opportunities for facilitated gatherings of people with very different lived experiences and backgrounds. Garrett caught my attention. Actually, Garrett caught the attention of the Ford foundation, who is investing is in work. So I feel that between those two things, there must be some there there. I found Garrett to be a pretty swell and creative human. I found his social impact model to be fascinating and I found him to give me hope. And I thought you might like some of that.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in.

[Joan Gary]

In 2021, Garrett Cathcart joined more Perfect Union. As the co founder and Executive director, he leads its mission to establish the nonprofit as the next generation civic and service organization. MPU's mission is to build connections with people who who would not otherwise meet through social gatherings service civic events at these Local chapters they call Brickyards. Prior to joining mpu, Garrett served as the founding executive director of Mission Roll Call, a national organization that provides veterans a powerful and unified voice in public policy. And as the first Southeast regional director of Veterans service organization Team Red, White and Blue, Garrett, first, thank you for your service, thank you for your work, and thank you for spending time with our listeners today.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Old Normal. Thanks for having me, John.

[Joan Gary]

Pleasure. Or maybe we'll decide that at the end of the episode.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah, wait till the end.

[Joan Gary]

You'll let me know? Yeah. Okay. Well, you could let me know so we could spend a ton of time talking about your professional trajectory because in our pre interview, it's a story and I do promise a full bio in the show notes, but let me just maybe make it simple. You're a patriot who is fiercely committed to the promise of America and that has been front and center in every move you've made. And what I want to do is I want to get to the origin story of your organization. I always feel like origin stories tell us so much. Not just about the work, but but about the people behind them. And that a strong and focused origin story is really vital to a thriving and impactful organization. So can you fill us in? How did this thing get off the ground?

[Garrett Cathcart]

Well, sure, and I appreciate that generous intro.

[Joan Gary]

I didn't make any of it up. Just so you know.

[Garrett Cathcart]

It's true. I've had a unique background. Must have been unplanned. You know, the jobs.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. That's not uncommon, is it?

[Garrett Cathcart]

No, not at all. You know, I, you know, as you allude to, I spent a long time in the United States army, much overseas and I left the military and thought making money would be great. So I of course moved to Beverly Hills and got a job, which is what, you know, I thought is where rich people lived. So I sold medical devices in hospitals for neurosurgeons. A long story, but I ended up a guy I met in Afghanistan who sent to study me because I preferred many Afghan tribes to fight alongside me, said he's starting and not helping you start a nonprofit. Hey, Garrett, you should come help start this nonprofit. Guy named Joe Quinn. I said, buddy, I love you. I don't care about veterans. I know I am one and I'm not going to work a non profit. I'm not going to be poor. But thanks for the thing thinking of me. So then I went and volunteered this organization at the brand new team Red, White and Blue B and immediately was struck by, oh, this is why I'm unhappy. I miss purpose, community, camaraderie, believing what I do. I didn't know what those words were at the time. I just knew that out I was unhappy living in Hermosa beach, working Beverly Hills. And so I ended up interviewing, got the job and drove from LA to Atlanta, where I still live. You know, one of the founders of Home Depot, Bernie Marcus, was very generous to that nonprofit. He wanted to land a guy that was me. So I, that's became my, my dream of what I used to call myself as a professional veteran, right. Helping veterans, learning, growing, healing myself from all my time in combat. Which led to another nonprofit that, you know, Marcus foundation was generous to where it was. How do you do policy and connect veterans via their smart devices? And that's where we get to MPU is a guy who had been living in Africa for eight years. He was a Marine Corps special operations veteran, fought in Iraq and had to solve this connection between poverty and terrorism. So like most people, Jake Herriman said, why don't he leave the military and go fight poverty in Africa to prevent terrorism? Boko Haram, ISIS territory, which is, you know, a super normal reaction. So it goes to a Stanford business school to figure out how to build a company in this case this nonprofit, New International. And he had been in Africa doing this, pairing special operations combat veterans with aid workers in gray zones, which is not full contact conflict areas, but normally too dangerous for traditional aid workers. And it had been working. So seven years in, he gets invited to the first ever presidential leadership scholarship program, which all these presidents libraries. And he hasn't lived in the United States in seven years. And then 2015 or 16, he gets back in 2015 and he's like, what happened to this country when I was gone? You guys hate each other's guts. Like people are self sorting to live amongst whoever voted the same way they do. People consume news media based off whatever they believe politically. And it's becoming, you know, I've been in it like the frog and boiling water nonstop. So you know, I knew was something was happening. But he who had left and come back, had come back was like, I don't recognize this country that I left to fight for.

[Joan Gary]

Right?

[Garrett Cathcart]

And so it's like, cascar, I got your name. You're like a professional veterans guy. I have this idea, what. How do we leverage this untapped resource in our country of military veterans to help unite the country from both political sides? Because veterans are one of, if not the only remaining institution that polls about 70% of trust between both Political demographics.

[Joan Gary]

I was gonna say, and I want you to keep going, but I just wrote down, veterans are absolutely unique messengers. And you are tapping into. Right. It's not just about the message. Right. It's also about the messenger.

[Garrett Cathcart]

It's the trusted messenger. Right. You know, you've fought. Oversees the country. But also, in our experiences, I fought alongside Jewish people, gay people, black people. Bled with them, literally cried with them. You know, some of them died in my arms dramatically. And, like, so, like, I'm. That was a great education about people and shared purpose.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Trauma and honor and all these other things. So he's like, gary, give me a couple calls. I give him my advice on how to build grassroots organizations and lead volunteers and get people inspired. And he's like, give me another call. I'm like, all right, dude. He's like, one more time. Fly to DC and whiteboard with me. I'm like, dude, you're asking a lot of stuff, But I'm like, dude, your idea is insane. We need it. I love. I love the courage it takes to just say, I'm starting something to help fix the country. And so we did all this whiteboarding ideas, and this is how smart he is and how dumb I am.

[Joan Gary]

Well, I was just gonna say was. Was the whole whiteboarding idea sort of a new, new skill for you?

[Garrett Cathcart]

Well, it was. I'm like, we have to plan stuff. So I'm like, all right, good luck with that, dude. I was just giving him my free, you know, whatever experiences I've had. Right or wrong.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

How smart he is and how dumb I am.

[Joan Gary]

He.

[Garrett Cathcart]

He just pulls a piece of paper out of his pocket and says, these are all great ideas. I've raised two months of Runway. You come do them. You come do it with me.

[Joan Gary]

Love it.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Be my co founder. I'm like, what did you say, dude? I thought I was just giving you advice. But he had been interviewing me the entire time without me even knowing it. He had raised some money from the Schultz family foundation. It's a seed funder. I could pay for 60 days. There's no other people here, but come do this. And I'm in this position of everything I just said was a good idea on his whiteboard. Either I'm full of shit, or he's just saying, come do it. Right. And you have seeking a pay for six days. We have to raise the rest. And so.

[Joan Gary]

And I'm assuming you were relatively new to this idea of fundraising too, right?

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah. So, I mean, I had been a regional director, and I had Been. And then my second nonprofit is the Ed.

[Joan Gary]

Oh, right.

[Garrett Cathcart]

But that come with that. That was a beautiful problem where the money was raised, and then they brought me on. So go build the company. Here's all the money you need. I'm like, dude, this is awesome. But, yes, next month, you don't get paid. That's a new problem in skill set. And by the way, it's just me and an idea and a pitch deck, like in a dream.

[Joan Gary]

But, you know, just real quickly, I think if you care, if you actually believe everything that's on that whiteboard, doesn't matter that you've actually never sat down with somebody and asked them for money. It actually makes you bolder about asking, don't you think?

[Garrett Cathcart]

I mean, I didn't know what I didn't know.

[Joan Gary]

Right?

[Garrett Cathcart]

And so I believe what I'm doing. I feel the weight. And that when you start bringing people on, like, they have to pay their rent and they have families. And so, like, it's a pressure that I've known pressure before, like, the different kind of pressure. And it's. It's a slow burn that never goes away.

[Joan Gary]

Right?

[Garrett Cathcart]

It's just weight on. It's leadership. Right? And so. And I mean, I've learned a lot in fundraising and also pivoting our mission statement and how we've grown before you. In four years, we've gone from an idea and a dream turn. 37 US cities, 36,000 members, and a $4 million budget. So we have a long way to go. But it is finding people passionate to believe in what you do. There's obviously a need for it, but also, you know, I got a lot of pats on the head. That's a good idea, bro. Good luck. Right? Like, how's that going to help? Right?

[Joan Gary]

Good luck with that.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah, good luck with that. All right. And I said, okay, watch me, dude. Watch.

[Joan Gary]

So, right. And. And so you did. And, you know, stepping into a challenge is actually like, part of the DNA of somebody who serves in the military, right? So you had the right soft skills for that kind of situation. But I was really struck. Your website is really clear, right? And I read this off of your website. America is stronger when we show up for our communities and for each other at our more perfect union. We bring people together in real life to bridge divides through service projects, meaningful conversations, and civic engagement. So I'm guessing that your whiteboard had those three legs of a stool or wound up at having three legs of that stool. Service, conversations, civic engagement. So tease. Let's take Them one at a time and tease them at 40.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Great. So our mission, and by the way, it was started as a veteran led movement to unite the country and strengthen community.

[Joan Gary]

Love it.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Social connection, service and civic engagement, education. We evolved past veterans because we had. It was always meant for all Americans. Veterans were the convening force right now, anyone who's an amazing civic leader, you can lead a brickyard for us. We hope you do. But to your point, social connections first, right? We do that to build understanding with each other. Right. It's a low bar. And by the way, we never ask you how you voted, but we don't talk about politics. That's really scary and that doesn't sound fun. We go to a pub night, we go to concerts, we go to baseball games. And the leaders are trained in community mapping. We're going to invite different groups of people. My network, your network, they're probably pretty different. I'm a straight white guy from Indiana. Right. And so I'll bring my friends. You being your friends, that's it. Now we're going to do something social. I'm going to start to build a relationship with you. You're awesome. Right? Like you do nonprofit stuff. You're like a non profit legend. I'm a. So we're building all these organic relationships.

[Joan Gary]

And you're a professional veteran and I at one time was a professional lesbian. So we have that.

[Garrett Cathcart]

I'm like, we have that in common.

[Joan Gary]

Right?

[Garrett Cathcart]

And then so like, all right. And we obviously we don't ask how. And then service is how we build understanding, right? Or sorry, is how we build trust with each other and the community. And so we're doing, you know, it's up to that local leader of what service projects they need because it's not some park bench and no one ever asked for. Right? What does the community need? What is your New Jersey beach town need?

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Is it a new playground? Is it a clean up the painted church or whatever. And so while we're serving together, we're swinging hammers or feeding the hungry, whatever it is that your community needs or sweating together, like I'm getting to know even better. We're talking about our kids. We're talking about, you know, what your favorite cocktail is and dinner dishes. And we're also building trust with the community. Right? Because we're out there serving it, doing good things. Right. And then the third stage of civic engagement is how we build ownership of our democracy. I'm not talking capitol in the White House. That's its own burning dumpster. Fire. But, like, how do you fix parking on your street? Potholes? Stop signs? What is it? Do you have a county commissioner? Do you have a city council? Like, how does. How does it work for you where you live? And how do you help the community where you live? That's where it starts, right? So throughout all this, and then I. And I'm. And I'm like, wait, Joan, you're awesome. And, like, we have the best time together. You're professional, as I'm professor veteran. Like, you vote for who? That's insane. Because I like you, and you're amazing, and, like, all my friends think your team is the worst, but it doesn't make sense to me because we hang out and have a great time.

[Joan Gary]

But it's not just we hang out and have a great time, is it, Garrett? It's because over that period of time, you learn something about me that we have in common, that we both are stumbling through parenthood, that we both have shared values around, maybe around faith. Like. Like, you learn about the stuff that. That brings us together rather than the.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Stuff that we're humanizing each other.

[Joan Gary]

Bingo. Right? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Because. Because the problem is, on the other side of that spectrum is, is we're dehumanizing each other with our social media feeds and our news stations, and the other side is the worst. The other side is this. And, like, it's. People are just scared to talk to the other side.

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Garrett Cathcart]

And so we never. You know, technically, we're in the bridging space, but we're doing it through service and civics, where we want to look. I love the Rotary, the Kiwanis Clubs, and in my generation, the vfw, the American Legion for Veterans, but no one's joining those groups. Right? The next generation. So how do we do, you know, appeal to more people. But, yes, the current. Underneath all that is getting people together who would never meet to do these things and along the way, humanize each other, build hope, build trust, and build relationships.

[Joan Gary]

I like all of this.

[Garrett Cathcart]

I do, too.

[Joan Gary]

Tell me about how it works. So introduce people to what? I love that phrase. Why do you call it a brickyard? Tell me about that.

[Garrett Cathcart]

You know, chapter is generic. I know what it means. Hey, we have a chapter in the city. A brickyard is a place where you build stuff. Right? You get together. It's gritty. It's dirty. Right? It's. It's hard work, but it's fun sometimes, too. And no one else had the name. It's unique to us. Right. So we get to put our own kind of build our culture around that. And so, hey, come join my Brickyard. Come join the Atlanta Brickyard. Right? And it's as easy as going to the website and literally signing up and then just show up. Right. Do you want to come to a pub night? You want to come to a potluck dinner? You want to come to a concert? Because when all of our leaders, I tell them all the time and you know, I have people smarter than I am that train the leaders and work here. Hey, what's fun? Like, what would you go to on a Saturday night or Sunday morning? Right. You know, there's other groups out there, and I love them.

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Garrett Cathcart]

But you got to put on your blue shirt and someone else puts on a red shirt, and then you debate policy civilly. That sounds miserable to me personally. I'm not going to go to that. And by the way, the people that show up to those things already aren't the problem. And so, you know, I think one of the reasons we are so unique and powerful is that we legitimately have conservatives. We're in small towns. We're in 10 to 12 rural areas, like small towns all over the country. Right. Not just the big cities. And they out because everyone wants their community to be. To be better. Everyone wants to serve their neighbor. Right. And so you sign up and then whatever appeals to you show up to. And then our. With the. The folks that are kind of our true blue, they really get involved because they get, they get resources, there's a budget, you get to help your community, you get to meet other people, you get to see progress, your crew, other leaders and volunteers. And so how it works is honestly, you sign up and what, you know, every events are on the website of the Brickyard, and what do you want to go to? And then, by the way, hey, I have this idea. Can I do this? Yes. Are you gonna get people together from all walks of life and do something that's a social connection event or a service event, then you could do it. And look at some of our social connection events. We have facilitated conversations. Right. We have a professor at University of Montana where we train all of our leaders, we fly to Missoula if we're having a great meal. And it's one of these conversations and like, they're around our core values, one which is hope. And that conversation designed around the American dream. So we're having a good meal. And I'm just like, what's the American dream mean to you? And I'm pulling out stories out of you and you're pulling stories out of me. And I ask when we go around the table, who's someone that represents the American dream? And then you tell a story about, I don't know, your grandmother, grandfather. And I'm like, my grandfather came here too with Ellis island. And it's, we're not tricking people, we're just giving a platform and a framework for people to get to know each other and frankly have fun. Right? Like, oh, this is. You like having fun too. That's crazy, right?

[Joan Gary]

Like so, so imagine that you're X number of years out. What do you want to be true as a result? And we'll go back, we're gonna talk a little bit about sort of impact and I definitely wanna hear a couple of stories that bring this to life. But what's the aspiration? That if this thing is really successful, what is true that is not true?

[Garrett Cathcart]

Now, big question, right? I think a lot about scaling and growth and depth and how big does this get be and don't grow for growth's sake. So, you know, the founder is a, is a visionary and he's taught me to think a little bigger to the point where even saying it out loud is a little scary. Right. You know, I would love for a brickyard to be in the majority of American cities the same way there's a Kiwanis or Rotary Club or VFW post, Right. Where there's no brick and mortar. Right. So there's a little lift. But it's a place where the community connects to get to know each other. The third place, the town square to solve problems. There's budget involved to go solve those problems together. And yeah, we're, we're going to become civically engaged. And what does that mean? Right? It means a lot of things. But you know, it is, we have a program with civic valor rolling out. It's teaching 14, 18 year old children what it means a life of service. You don't have to be in the military, East Corps, park ranger, the nonprofit. Life is amazing, obviously, but you're also a volunteer, then have to be your income.

[Joan Gary]

Totally.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Right. And so, but it becomes. People use the word movement a lot and it's almost overused. But it becomes this idea, it's hope personified that you can. There are people that are the one. They, they're tired of yelling at their TV or their laptop or the newspaper, but they don't know where to go, what to do. And we got that place. I can, I can go meet cool people doing cool Stuff, it's the good people. We're all. Every different way. And this sounds very Pollyanna Kumbaya, but. But humans are humans, and inherently, I believe they're good when you give them the opportunity to be good and some direction on how to do it. Right. And so when people get together, I'm always nervous about there's gonna be an argument in one of these events. We've had, I don't know, I have thousands of events. There's not been a blowout, crazy argument. There's been healthy debate. But I want this to be. I want everyone to have the opportunity to do this in every town in the country. Right.

[Joan Gary]

Right. And if I have a brickyard in a community and it's really thriving.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yep.

[Joan Gary]

Tell me what that community. How is that community different, do you think, from a community that doesn't have a brickyard? Are there? And I know you couldn't make direct correlations. Right. But I think about things like bullying, I think about things like gun violence, like all of those things that are the manifestations of polarization. And are those the kind of manifestations of polarization that you could imagine sort of damping down, decreasing as a result of a community that has a thriving brickyard?

[Garrett Cathcart]

I mean, the hope. And we've, you know, in smaller towns or rural towns, this is starting to become a thing with a brickyard, because they're seen as problem solvers, the good people, the good guys and girls. But, you know, the extremism that's on a lot of. It's the 10% on the fringes, right?

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Far left, the craziest. But that's what gets on TV. It's newsworthy. It's red. So the middle 80, where do they go? It's not newsworthy for us to have a cup of coffee and talk about life. Right. Even though we disagree on a lot of things. Maybe I want this to be a place where the middle 80 goes. And when there's a place that the middle 80 goes, the majority of people have power, collective power. Right. So, hey, this is this. I don't care what's happening in our town or our community. This is what. What happened. That one event, not great. Let's go do a service project to help. Whether it's a natural disaster, a tragedy, it's the place to go when you want to serve and connect. Right. And the other piece that was kind of a tailwind for us is there's a. There's a loneliness epidemic in this country. People don't know how to make new Friends, right? Like, I'm 44. Where are I going to make new friends, right? Like, go to a bar by myself. That seems weird, right?

[Joan Gary]

So it's a community. It's. It's actually a community. We're talking about community building.

[Garrett Cathcart]

That's exactly what it is.

[Joan Gary]

We're talking about strengthening a community.

[Garrett Cathcart]

That's exactly what it is.

[Joan Gary]

Solving the problems that make a community unhealthy. Right. And I think I love everything about what you're attempting to do.

[Garrett Cathcart]

And this is the other thing, right. When I say we do service, process, and we solve problems, that's not why we exist. Those are the mechanism and platform of how we bond people together and build community. Now in a lot of cities, because we have well trained, well resourced, incredible leaders, nonprofits, and people come looking at us, hey, you guys have budget and have an awesome network. Can you come help us figure this out?

[Joan Gary]

Yep.

[Garrett Cathcart]

And so whether it's Meals on Wheels, giving blood, some people are, you know, rucking with rucksacks to donate food, painting, church, I mean, whatever you can think of, people are doing. Those are all body mechanisms. And I love that. And I'm obviously biased, but I'm learning from the people on the ground that are doing it. Because you can join a brickyard and it's not just volunteering for a nonprofit. You get to what flavor service are we doing this month? We go in the house of Habitat, we give them blood. Are we gonna go, Mitchell kids, a big Brother? Like, it's kind of a one stop shop for awesomeness.

[Joan Gary]

Well, a one stop shop for awesomeness. And you're actually also empowering the people who are part of that brickyard. You're not imposing upon them what they do or don't do. And I think that far too often we nonprofits actually really try to impose on their constituents or their members what they see as this is what you ought to do. So we're gonna take a short break, and when we come back, I want you to just pick like the juiciest story you can tell us about. And I know that evaluating impact is something nonprofits see as a big mountain to climb, but I don't think it's such a big mountain to climb. But I want to hear a story, lessons you've learned, the potential applicability of your model to other nonprofits. And we'll end by just talking about the promise of your work. So think about that. And we'll be back in just a moment. Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go Way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them. Drgtalent.com and tell them Joan Gary sent you. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the Nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills, and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and and we'd love for you to join us. Learn [e-mail] podcast. So we're back and we're talking with Garrett Cathcart, who is one of the co founders of More Perfect Union. And I'm just loving bringing to you as a listener a model that is about strengthening communities. I was talking not long ago with a friend of mine named Darlene Knippersh who has been a guest on our podcast, and she and her family lost their home in the Altadena fires. And when you listen to her talk about how that community has come together, it's really inspiring. But it doesn't have to have a crisis or a disaster attached to it. And I think that's one of the things I'm picking up in this conversation today. So bring it to life for us. Garrett, one story that really stands out for you, actually that makes people really want to get engaged or write a check because you have a platform here, my friend.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. I think one of the most powerful powerful was one of the earliest. We had someone start a brickyard in Glen Rose, Texas, which is a small town of about 3,000. And it was important for us to have rural locations as much as the big cities. Right. That is a lot of America. And that's a lot of America that feels unseen, unheard. Right. And so we were very deliberate about our locations and I went out there and I'm a city slicker. I live in Atlanta, Georgia and I mean my father and my grandfather were farmers. That's why Indiana town speak the language. But she had geniusly planned an event in the one park in town during the Master Rose Gardener, you know, gathering a Comanche Nation powwow, literally. And she had done a clothing drive and a barbecue. She donated one of her own pigs, had someone barbecue for 18 hours and a huge smoker and just had people for free food and their clothing drive and toys. And so I'm milling around and talking to all these people, and there start to be a steady stream of Hispanic immigrants coming, toys and food. And I was talking to a lady who actually had one of our shirts on, right? Who are you? You're wearing one of my shirts. It's awesome. It's like, oh, they're giving away. And, you know, I missed. I missed my Patriot League meeting to come here because I. We've never done anything like this. And I was like, what's the Patriot League?

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, I was going to ask too.

[Garrett Cathcart]

He said, oh, it just. We have a. We bought a piece of land together. A lot of. A lot of the neighbors that's about 20 miles away. And we, together, we go out there with our rifles, do small arms training and maneuvers. And I'm like, oh, you're. You're the militia. I didn't say that obviously, but that was what the vibe that it was. Right. She was safe talking to me because I talk about who I was and my military and combat background, and immediately I kind of got like almost a panic. Like the. There's militia members here in the small Texas town. We have brand new Hispanic immigrants partaking in food in the toy drive. I'm like, oh, shit. I'm like, but this is kind of. This is a dramatic example of what we created this for. And this lady walks over to this young Hispanic kid, sit down next to him and ask them if he picked out if he got what he wanted from the toy drive. They have enough food. Talking with his family, and it's such a human moment. It's a child picking out a toy and some clothes and eating barbecue together. And I thought to myself, like, this is who we are in our best day.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

If we can do this 30 million times across the country, then we got a shot, right? And so, I mean, they didn't talk politics. There was no, you know, but it was just people being human. And I just. I would. I watched it from kind of afar. I wasn't trying to stare, but I was like, this is. I made assumptions about her belief system based off what she told me.

[Joan Gary]

I'm sure you did.

[Garrett Cathcart]

There's a bunch of this stuff flying around of assumptions and preconceived notions and whatever. And it was just A beautiful interaction. Right. That kind of formed a lot of my thinking around how we go about recruiting different groups of people for different events. Right. And so that was a pretty powerful kind of just validating moment for me, saying, hey, there's something to this. We can do this a lot. And to your point earlier, I never would have thought have a clothing drive coupled with a barbecue dinner that you donate one of your own farm animals to cook. But it's local leadership, right? I mean, they lead their own. I call them co founders, you know, their own brickyard that they started, they're the founder of. They lead it the way they see fit with some guy, a little bit of guidance and training. But it's Glen Rose, Texas is not Atlanta, it's not Chicago, is not Silicon Valley Brickyard. Those are very different places.

[Joan Gary]

Right.

[Garrett Cathcart]

So, yep, that was a powerful moment for me in small town in Texas.

[Joan Gary]

The question, I suspect people will ask that just the change that happens, right. Like you have this human moment and then the patriot person leaves, the immigrant leaves, does more perfect union see the change? How does the. Yeah. What's the theory of change there in that conversation or in these, in these social gatherings?

[Garrett Cathcart]

So theory of change is, you know, intergroup contact theory. We're bringing people together, humanizing them, depolarizing a lot of big words, but we're really talking about what is output versus outcome. Yeah, right. I come to 15 events. Cool. But how do, if I was a hardcore left or right, am I different? We're not changing people's political opinions. And so we started measuring early on for outcomes. We used a tool called scim, the Social Cohesion Index measure. You know, developed by Stanford at MIT and all, you know, 10 pound brains. But we are measuring for intergroup empathy, intellectual humility and values based listening. Right. Can I listen to something that's I disagree with and not be angry? Yeah, but rolling out surveys, you know, it's, that's not in the tools weren't there yet. So we had some, we got some data, I think we got 100, 200 data points. And we were showing, you know, empathy is rising. But what I want to know is by type, if it's social connection events, if I go to five of those. And so we're getting better at data matching. But we've also just won a grant with Stanford University to develop a completely new tool. Right. With Stanford, how do we measure depolarization, civic engagement? And so we're working on that right now as we speak. Because you're, you know, to funders It's a business. Right. They're investing in me. Their ROI is impact. I have to tell you, look at what you, you spent your money on. Look at the impact.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

If we, if we threw a thousand barbecues and went to 100 baseball games, that's great. But if it didn't depolarize the country and strengthen communities, how do I define strength? Then it doesn't matter. Right. So four years in, we're still getting a little more scientific on our outcomes because it's a new space. This bridging space that we're in didn't exist five, six years ago.

[Joan Gary]

Totally. And get online with other relatively new organizations that have a budget of a couple of million dollars who have not exactly nailed the sort of that question of how do I know that I've had impact and how do I make a case to a funder in that regard? So I applaud you for the work that you're doing to take this to the next level, to actually make a clear cut case for what's happening here, because conceptually, theoretically, and just from a place of good old human common sense, what you're doing just makes a boatload of sense. So let's imagine my second question here was the applicability of your model to other nonprofits. And so many nonprofits live on one side of the aisle or the other. Right. And you're not. I mean, you know, when I ran an LGBT organization like you, I knew that you didn't get the, you know, whether it's the 10 or the 20% on one side, you're always gonna get the 10 or 20% on the other side. Or what do I do at that middle. Right. Yeah. And I think we often, regardless of ideology, end up spending way too much time talking to the choir. So I guess the question for me is, what's the applicability to somebody that's listening today who is on one side of that aisle or another and is an advocacy organization? What might you tell them about what you've learned? And that might make them think about how they might do their work differently?

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is what I've learned along the way too. People in the bridging space tend to be one side of the aisle. Right. I mean, I've been a member of and voted for both parties. I'm politically androgynous myself. Right. I don't know what I am anymore. I'm independent. Right.

[Joan Gary]

Or maybe non binary, perhaps.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Yeah. I'm not. I am non binary. Politically non. Binary. I love that. Actually, I'm non binary. My Dirk, my vice president of tech and ops, is non binary. I'm going to tell her that I'm non binary, too, but politically only. My director of partnerships is a Marine Corps Special Operations colonel. He says he's conservative, says he voted for Trump, lives in Idaho and all the stuff that goes with it. He's on the team because he believes in this country and he works with everyone else, but he was just at a conference.

[Joan Gary]

Sounds like your team is its own brickyard.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Well, I had to do that, yes. I can't. You know, I. I say a lot of times there's. I mean, there's always collectives of thought leaders and smart people of how we fix the country, how we need power, how we prevent political violence. But I. One, you can't be a thought leader. You need people out on the ground doing the stuff in communities. So that's a very hard task. Yes, right. We're doing it because it's all of our people. But two, you can't all be liberals in a room hugging each other and saying, we're fixing it. Right. If we're being honest, you know, you need everybody. And so we had to build a team, both at the headquarters level and our brickyard level leaders that represents the population we're trying to serve, which is the middle 80% of America, which is quite broad by design. Right. And yes, we go after very talented, incredible people, but when you're advocating, I mean, humanizing each other and building personal relationships to me is one of the most powerful ways to get anything done. I mean, I did it. I think a lot of what I did in Afghanistan with this is going to sound crazy, but recruiting Afghan tribes to fight me alongside me against the Taliban was drinking tea, smoking hookah, and eating goat meat. Yeah, right. It was. And they were on the other side of the world, living in a remote, medieval kind of technology village, sleeping under the stars and in mud huts. But we like eating good food, we're telling jokes, we have hopes for our families. And it's just like, it was very formative moment to me, which had me really realizing it. If we could become friends over there to really, like, form together to fight, you know, in combat, it's a little. It's just you got to reach out to people that you may not normally want to talk to. And it's. Look, it's scary. It is. There's no question that it takes courage for you to invite someone over to, hey, let's grab a drink and it seems like a small act, but even here in this neighborhood, I can't. When I moved in, someone put a poster note on my door, said, hey, you're new cocktail party in our backyard to see who you are. Right. Like, I was like, that's. Wow. I felt kind of welcome. I was, I'm sure I was going to be judged. But they reached out and reaching out takes courage.

[Joan Gary]

It does.

[Garrett Cathcart]

And it does.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. It sure does. There's a lot of promise in what you're doing here. And we talked about it earlier, the promise that my neighbor and you used the word neighbor before And I actually, Mr. Rogers kind of loved that word. Right? Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

What would you mean?

[Joan Gary]

But it's so rich, isn't it? Right? Is that what would you do for your neighbor regardless of who they voted for? Right. Regardless of whether they think people should have AK47s or whether they, you know, LGBT rights are a thing. I mean, what would you do for your next door neighbor? And I think that that's. We sort of really as a country really lost that. And it's pretty easy to blame some side or some group for the loss of that. But we all have a responsibility to rebuild it, don't we?

[Garrett Cathcart]

We do. I mean, what would you do for your neighbor? We all have signs. We don't. I don't. But like everyone's sloppy. All signs in front of their house, who they voted for, what they support. Right. It's how visual we are and we want to tell the world what side we're on. But if someone who with a different side of their house, it's on fire, would you, would you call the fire department? Would you let it burn? Right, that's.

[Joan Gary]

It's that simple. Right? It's almost that simple.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Obviously it was 911 too long ago, but it made me think about, do you remember the feeling after 9 11? Obviously tragic, but I don't care who you voted for. Right. Like we're coming together, everyone's terrified. But we were Americans before we were anything else.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, yeah. There's a meme. You see it every year somewhere on social media. I certainly would never have wished for 9 11, but I remember who we all were on 9 12. Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Garrett Cathcart]

We were many of most. But like neighbors helping neighbors everywhere in the country, not just in New York. And I was a West Point cadet when it went down. It was. I tried to quit because I thought I was going to miss the war.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah.

[Garrett Cathcart]

And guys, someone talked me out of it. But you know, the enduring years overseas, non stop And I fought for my country overseas. Was worse than. I end. Well, hold other ball of stories there, but I do think of it this now of reaching out and hosting events and like, this is fighting for our country here now.

[Joan Gary]

Yes, absolutely.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Save this democracy. It is a potluck dinner. It is a service project. And I don't care whether it's MPU or another group. We're not parochial. Take our model and some of our resources and go help other groups.

[Joan Gary]

Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know what's interesting, and we were almost out of time, and I want to give you the last word here, but it's not even in community. So I am one of 27 first cousins. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Irish and I have. My mom is a blessed memory. Identical twin. Her identical twin sister lives in Atlanta, and she has seven children. A skajillion grandchildren and a half a skajillion great grandchildren.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Wow.

[Joan Gary]

But those seven kids are their own community, amazingly. Each of which. There are discussions that we can have about things, and there are political discussions we tend to not have. But there is a bond, and it's obviously a familial bond, but it's also a bond about what are the values we share. Right. Who are we as human beings and what would we do to help each other out. And that has nothing to do with what sign you have on your front lawn. And I really think that's really quite powerful. And so I think it's not just. I hear a lot of people talk about this, not just only in their communities, but in their families, their extended families, their chosen families, that really taking this kind of approach, if you could do it in your family, like, what a difference we could actually all make. Right. So tell me as we close out, you have made a very good case, a most excellent case for the work that your organization is doing. I want you to take the last couple of minutes of this. How does someone get involved?

[Garrett Cathcart]

The easiest answer is sign up on the website. MPU us. And so we are in 37 cities. And if you're not in a city that we have a physical brickyard. And a brickyard means we've trained the leadership, they have a budget, they do events. We're coming up with ways for you to come engaged as a loan brick yard person. Right. Like there's not a brickyard in your city. This program, Civic Valor, we want you to go teach and coach children on service and what it means to be civically valorous. Right. And we chose those words specifically for a reason. You Know, social media is an issue. I think it's one of the reason. One of the reason we're. We're at. We're at politically and polarized. So we do a great job of. Of showcasing our on the ground stuff. So anytime someone who's done a break study, hey, I'm wearing my NPU shirt. Take a selfie after. Did a server add a cup of coffee? Someone to agree with me. That is a way to become engaged kind of on your. We have a lot of other ways, but sign up. Right. I mean, your time is the most important resource you can give. And, like, we're a nonprofit, obviously, resources are a thing that we need. And so we're constantly raising and constantly trying to scale this. But, you know, do it in a responsible way that the quality of programming remains the same before we just get too big.

[Joan Gary]

Yep. And I just. I think what we have presented today. And obviously. So you made it clear at the beginning, I don't have to be a military vet to be in this organization, which is a wonderful thing. But I feel like I say this quite often on my podcast. There are so many people who are hungry for this, for meaning and purpose in their lives that are so hungry for the world to feel different, to be different in some ways. And I think sometimes that people feel either that it's somebody else's job or it's too big a job. Right. Or what could I possibly do? And I think what you have done by sharing this story today is illustrate that meaning and purpose is right there waiting for you. Yeah. And that there is, in fact, something you can tangibly do to actually take this polarized world of ours and try to make it feel human and American, truly American in the fullest sense of the word. So thank you, Garrett.

[Garrett Cathcart]

No, I mean, thank you, Joe. Thanks for talking on all you've done for the social impact and nonprofit space. I feel lucky to be here. I say this in genuine honesty. I got to do some cool things in Afghanistan and Iraq, meaning lead task forces to clear Taliban strongholds and build schools for girls and all these incredible things. Big fights, big gun fights. But the work I'm doing now is more meaningful for this country.

[Joan Gary]

Yes.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Think I'm serving it in a more impactful way. It's not that there's. No one's gonna write a movie about me having a dinner, you know, dinner party, people that don't agree. But it is going to repair and rebuild the social and civic fabric of the country. Right.

[Joan Gary]

Yeah, That's. That's no small thing that's not nothing website.

[Garrett Cathcart]

Can you just shout out your website www.mpu.us?

[Joan Gary]

So take a look, learn more, get involved. And if you are currently a nonprofit leader listening in, think about what Garrett spoke about today and what does it mean to reach out to that group of people that are sitting on the other side and what are the mechanisms you can introduce to really begin to have real human conversations with people who may not stand on the same side of issues. So with that said, again, thanks a lot, Garrett. I really enjoy your energy and I really like the model and I hope that you have continued impact and I look forward to following you. And maybe I'll have to connect you with my skajillion Irish friends in Atlanta.

[Garrett Cathcart]

I like new friends all the time.

[Joan Gary]

There you go. All right, in the meantime, thank you all for joining us today. I hope you grabbed something meaningful out of this conversation. I know I did. And in the meantime, thank you for all you do and please take good care of yourselves and we'll see you next time.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you on next time.