Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership

Ep 242: Think Like a Nonprofit: A Smarter Way to Do Business

Host: Joan Garry
Guest/Contributor: Glenda Testone
Release Date: December 6, 2025

Episode Overview

In this solo, impassioned episode, Joan Garry urges leaders from both nonprofit and corporate sectors to rethink what effectiveness, leadership, and impact mean in organizations today. Drawing on her own journey from corporate executive to leading GLAAD, Joan debunks the myth that nonprofits are less mature or skilled than their for-profit counterparts.

Her central thesis: Nonprofits have a wealth of leadership lessons—around power, purpose, EQ, and shared leadership—that the business world urgently needs to learn. Joan lays out eight core lessons the for-profit world can borrow from nonprofits to run smarter, more human, and purpose-driven organizations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debunking Nonprofit Stereotypes

• Timestamps: 00:00–05:40
• Joan describes moving from corporate to nonprofit, realizing both the value and arrogance she brought:
  • “I believed…that I was bringing something to the nonprofit sector that it didn't have, that it really needed the skills you learn in the for profit sector. And that wasn't untrue.” (00:16)
• Her failed hire of a “badass” executive from the private sector was pivotal: “Almost every interaction he had with folks...felt like 'let me help you little people arrogance.'” (01:38, Glenda Testone quoting the attitude)
• Joan flips the script: Not only can nonprofits learn from business, but business desperately needs lessons from nonprofits—especially regarding purpose and leadership.

2. Shared Vision of a Thriving Organization

• Timestamps: 06:48–09:07
• Success is sector-agnostic: both nonprofits and businesses want smart management, impact, accountability, talented teams, respect, and results.
• Joan emphasizes, “Impact goes first. Okay, so for me, those are the same regardless of sector.” (07:44)
• She stresses that engaged employees, clear vision, and innovation should be core values across all organizations.

3. 8 Nonprofit Lessons Corporate America Should Steal

(Each lesson is attributed and timestamped for key references.)

1. Shared/Distributed Power

• Timestamps: 09:53–11:41
• Nonprofit leadership is “shared leadership” rather than strict hierarchy, empowering staff, donors, and stakeholders.
• “The power comes from all around me...I, as a leader, derive my power from my board, my donors, my stakeholders, my staff.” (11:14, Joan Garry)

2. Hearing Voices / Employees Expect to Be Heard

• Timestamps: 11:41–13:09
• Nonprofits (and Gen Z employees everywhere) expect their voices to matter.
• “One of the reasons we're in this line of work is because we came to use our voice and we expect it to be heard.” (12:40, Joan Garry)
• “My success...I put my head on the pillow at night, feeling like I've had a great day at the office when I have helped shape the impact on a client, a cause or a community.” (13:09, Joan Garry)

3. Navigating Multiple, Vocal Constituencies

• Timestamps: 13:25–14:57
• Nonprofits constantly balance the needs and opinions of many groups.
• “Nonprofit leaders are constantly navigating the voices of these constituencies, all of whom have a certain degree of power.” (13:55, Joan Garry)
• This builds emotional intelligence (EQ) often lacking in businesses.

4. Dealing With the Feelings / Emotional Work

• Timestamps: 14:57–16:41
• Nonprofit work is emotional; feelings and vulnerability are unavoidable and must be managed wisely.
• “People who decide to work in a nonprofit, their feelings are much more central because the work they do is emotional.” (15:44, Glenda Testone)
• “You actually have to make space for that.” (16:02, Glenda Testone)

5. Managing in Three Dimensions (Seeing Employees as Multi-Faceted)

• Timestamps: 16:47–19:54
• Understanding employees’ full lives boosts efficacy and retention.
• Joan calls out the importance of “kibitzing” and checking in—it's not just fun, it’s essential for trust and connection.
• “If it’s all about your to do list, your KPIs, you’re going to miss something really important.” (18:12, Glenda Testone)

6. Purpose as Core DNA

• Timestamps: 20:03–22:46
• Nonprofits are purpose-driven; corporate America often neglects to articulate or center its “why.”
• “The nonprofit sector knows from purpose. And by the way, you want the best possible young people to come work for you, you better be selling purpose, because that's what they're looking for.” (22:28, Joan Garry)
• Quoting Daniel Pink: “The three big drivers of job satisfaction, autonomy, mastery and purpose. The nonprofit sector knows from purpose.” (22:21, Joan Garry & Glenda Testone)

7. Growth and Development (Real Responsibility and Skill Building)

• Timestamps: 23:05–25:49
• Nonprofit staff get hands-on experience across roles, accelerating learning and versatility.
• “There’s nothing you won’t do. You’ll get to do everything. And it will actually build your skills, and it'll also help you better understand what things really light you up.” (23:39, Joan Garry)
• Overvaluing titles/hierarchies (from corporate culture) can stifle true growth.

8. Leadership as Storytelling & Inspiration

• Timestamps: 26:17–29:10
• Great nonprofit leaders inspire, unite constituencies, and mobilize around a compelling purpose.
• “I could call it the goosebump effect. I could call it just plain old good old fashioned inspiration.” (26:37, Joan Garry)
• “I, as a leader, have an opportunity to be a storyteller whose stories motivate people to be the best leaders and managers they can be.” (27:23, Joan Garry)
• “This is what great nonprofit leaders do. And it's what corporate leaders need to do.” (29:06, Glenda Testone)

4. Why These Lessons Matter, Especially Now

• Timestamps: 29:10–32:26
• Today’s multi-generational workforce and societal challenges demand shared power, voice, EQ, and purpose.
• Hiring, retention, and impact all tie back to these core lessons.
• Joan shares:
  • “If more board members and donors understood the things I've talked about today, they would appreciate nonprofit leadership in a different way and see its real value.” (30:53, Joan Garry)
  • “If more people really understood the lessons the nonprofit sector has to teach us…I am convinced we would increase trust [in] the sector.” (31:32, Joan Garry)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m fed up with the holier-than-thou attitude of corporate America, as if all businesses are well run. Seriously.” (03:43, Joan Garry)
• “Shared leadership. That is very different from hierarchy.” (10:21, Glenda Testone)
• “Did I come to Showtime or MTV to have a voice?... because of that power thing...I could defer. Gen Z folks, don't defer. Nonprofit folks, as a general rule, don't defer. We’re disruptors, right?” (12:18–12:36, Joan Garry)
• “People who decide to work in a nonprofit, their feelings are much more central because the work they do is emotional.” (15:44, Glenda Testone)
• “The three big drivers of job satisfaction: autonomy, mastery, and purpose. The nonprofit sector knows from purpose.” (22:21, Daniel Pink via Joan Garry)
• “I, as a leader, have an opportunity to be a storyteller whose stories motivate people to be the best leaders and managers they can be.” (27:23, Joan Garry)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening story and context: 00:00–05:40
• Defining a thriving organization: 06:48–09:07
• Eight nonprofit lessons for business: 09:53–29:10
  • Shared Power: 09:53
  • Hearing Voices: 11:41
  • Competing Constituencies: 13:25
  • Feelings as Central: 14:57
  • Managing in 3D: 16:47
  • Purpose: 20:03
  • Growth and Development: 23:05
  • Leadership/Storytelling: 26:17
• Why it matters now: 29:10–32:26
• Final thoughts and sector appreciation: 30:51–32:26

Conclusion

Joan closes with a call to action for both sectors: Corporate leaders should stop dismissing nonprofits as less-than, and should begin adopting their leadership DNA for a smarter, more impactful—dare we say, more human—way to do business. Nonprofit leaders, meanwhile, can take heart in the value and complexity of their work, understanding that their skills deliver lessons broader society and business sorely need.

Summary Takeaways

• Nonprofits are not “lesser” but uniquely skilled in shared leadership, EQ, purpose, and engagement.
• Businesses can gain agility, innovation, and retention by embracing these lessons.
• The world—and today’s workforce—demands a better, more purpose-driven way.
• As Joan says: “There are at least eight ways in which the nonprofit sector can teach you in corporate America to be better, more impactful and more successful as an organization.” (30:18, Joan Garry)

For more: joangarry.com/podcast
Learn about the Nonprofit Leadership Lab: nonprofitleadershiplab.com/podcast