Ep 242: Think Like a Nonprofit: A Smarter Way to Do Business

Summary

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Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership

Ep 242: Think Like a Nonprofit: A Smarter Way to Do Business

Host: Joan Garry
Guest/Contributor: Glenda Testone
Release Date: December 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this solo, impassioned episode, Joan Garry urges leaders from both nonprofit and corporate sectors to rethink what effectiveness, leadership, and impact mean in organizations today. Drawing on her own journey from corporate executive to leading GLAAD, Joan debunks the myth that nonprofits are less mature or skilled than their for-profit counterparts.

Her central thesis: Nonprofits have a wealth of leadership lessons—around power, purpose, EQ, and shared leadership—that the business world urgently needs to learn. Joan lays out eight core lessons the for-profit world can borrow from nonprofits to run smarter, more human, and purpose-driven organizations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debunking Nonprofit Stereotypes

• Timestamps: 00:00–05:40
• Joan describes moving from corporate to nonprofit, realizing both the value and arrogance she brought:
  • “I believed…that I was bringing something to the nonprofit sector that it didn't have, that it really needed the skills you learn in the for profit sector. And that wasn't untrue.” (00:16)
• Her failed hire of a “badass” executive from the private sector was pivotal: “Almost every interaction he had with folks...felt like 'let me help you little people arrogance.'” (01:38, Glenda Testone quoting the attitude)
• Joan flips the script: Not only can nonprofits learn from business, but business desperately needs lessons from nonprofits—especially regarding purpose and leadership.

2. Shared Vision of a Thriving Organization

• Timestamps: 06:48–09:07
• Success is sector-agnostic: both nonprofits and businesses want smart management, impact, accountability, talented teams, respect, and results.
• Joan emphasizes, “Impact goes first. Okay, so for me, those are the same regardless of sector.” (07:44)
• She stresses that engaged employees, clear vision, and innovation should be core values across all organizations.

3. 8 Nonprofit Lessons Corporate America Should Steal

(Each lesson is attributed and timestamped for key references.)

1. Shared/Distributed Power

• Timestamps: 09:53–11:41
• Nonprofit leadership is “shared leadership” rather than strict hierarchy, empowering staff, donors, and stakeholders.
• “The power comes from all around me...I, as a leader, derive my power from my board, my donors, my stakeholders, my staff.” (11:14, Joan Garry)

2. Hearing Voices / Employees Expect to Be Heard

• Timestamps: 11:41–13:09
• Nonprofits (and Gen Z employees everywhere) expect their voices to matter.
• “One of the reasons we're in this line of work is because we came to use our voice and we expect it to be heard.” (12:40, Joan Garry)
• “My success...I put my head on the pillow at night, feeling like I've had a great day at the office when I have helped shape the impact on a client, a cause or a community.” (13:09, Joan Garry)

3. Navigating Multiple, Vocal Constituencies

• Timestamps: 13:25–14:57
• Nonprofits constantly balance the needs and opinions of many groups.
• “Nonprofit leaders are constantly navigating the voices of these constituencies, all of whom have a certain degree of power.” (13:55, Joan Garry)
• This builds emotional intelligence (EQ) often lacking in businesses.

4. Dealing With the Feelings / Emotional Work

• Timestamps: 14:57–16:41
• Nonprofit work is emotional; feelings and vulnerability are unavoidable and must be managed wisely.
• “People who decide to work in a nonprofit, their feelings are much more central because the work they do is emotional.” (15:44, Glenda Testone)
• “You actually have to make space for that.” (16:02, Glenda Testone)

5. Managing in Three Dimensions (Seeing Employees as Multi-Faceted)

• Timestamps: 16:47–19:54
• Understanding employees’ full lives boosts efficacy and retention.
• Joan calls out the importance of “kibitzing” and checking in—it's not just fun, it’s essential for trust and connection.
• “If it’s all about your to do list, your KPIs, you’re going to miss something really important.” (18:12, Glenda Testone)

6. Purpose as Core DNA

• Timestamps: 20:03–22:46
• Nonprofits are purpose-driven; corporate America often neglects to articulate or center its “why.”
• “The nonprofit sector knows from purpose. And by the way, you want the best possible young people to come work for you, you better be selling purpose, because that's what they're looking for.” (22:28, Joan Garry)
• Quoting Daniel Pink: “The three big drivers of job satisfaction, autonomy, mastery and purpose. The nonprofit sector knows from purpose.” (22:21, Joan Garry & Glenda Testone)

7. Growth and Development (Real Responsibility and Skill Building)

• Timestamps: 23:05–25:49
• Nonprofit staff get hands-on experience across roles, accelerating learning and versatility.
• “There’s nothing you won’t do. You’ll get to do everything. And it will actually build your skills, and it'll also help you better understand what things really light you up.” (23:39, Joan Garry)
• Overvaluing titles/hierarchies (from corporate culture) can stifle true growth.

8. Leadership as Storytelling & Inspiration

• Timestamps: 26:17–29:10
• Great nonprofit leaders inspire, unite constituencies, and mobilize around a compelling purpose.
• “I could call it the goosebump effect. I could call it just plain old good old fashioned inspiration.” (26:37, Joan Garry)
• “I, as a leader, have an opportunity to be a storyteller whose stories motivate people to be the best leaders and managers they can be.” (27:23, Joan Garry)
• “This is what great nonprofit leaders do. And it's what corporate leaders need to do.” (29:06, Glenda Testone)

4. Why These Lessons Matter, Especially Now

• Timestamps: 29:10–32:26
• Today’s multi-generational workforce and societal challenges demand shared power, voice, EQ, and purpose.
• Hiring, retention, and impact all tie back to these core lessons.
• Joan shares:
  • “If more board members and donors understood the things I've talked about today, they would appreciate nonprofit leadership in a different way and see its real value.” (30:53, Joan Garry)
  • “If more people really understood the lessons the nonprofit sector has to teach us…I am convinced we would increase trust [in] the sector.” (31:32, Joan Garry)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m fed up with the holier-than-thou attitude of corporate America, as if all businesses are well run. Seriously.” (03:43, Joan Garry)
• “Shared leadership. That is very different from hierarchy.” (10:21, Glenda Testone)
• “Did I come to Showtime or MTV to have a voice?... because of that power thing...I could defer. Gen Z folks, don't defer. Nonprofit folks, as a general rule, don't defer. We’re disruptors, right?” (12:18–12:36, Joan Garry)
• “People who decide to work in a nonprofit, their feelings are much more central because the work they do is emotional.” (15:44, Glenda Testone)
• “The three big drivers of job satisfaction: autonomy, mastery, and purpose. The nonprofit sector knows from purpose.” (22:21, Daniel Pink via Joan Garry)
• “I, as a leader, have an opportunity to be a storyteller whose stories motivate people to be the best leaders and managers they can be.” (27:23, Joan Garry)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening story and context: 00:00–05:40
• Defining a thriving organization: 06:48–09:07
• Eight nonprofit lessons for business: 09:53–29:10
  • Shared Power: 09:53
  • Hearing Voices: 11:41
  • Competing Constituencies: 13:25
  • Feelings as Central: 14:57
  • Managing in 3D: 16:47
  • Purpose: 20:03
  • Growth and Development: 23:05
  • Leadership/Storytelling: 26:17
• Why it matters now: 29:10–32:26
• Final thoughts and sector appreciation: 30:51–32:26

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Conclusion

Joan closes with a call to action for both sectors: Corporate leaders should stop dismissing nonprofits as less-than, and should begin adopting their leadership DNA for a smarter, more impactful—dare we say, more human—way to do business. Nonprofit leaders, meanwhile, can take heart in the value and complexity of their work, understanding that their skills deliver lessons broader society and business sorely need.

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Summary Takeaways

• Nonprofits are not “lesser” but uniquely skilled in shared leadership, EQ, purpose, and engagement.
• Businesses can gain agility, innovation, and retention by embracing these lessons.
• The world—and today’s workforce—demands a better, more purpose-driven way.
• As Joan says: “There are at least eight ways in which the nonprofit sector can teach you in corporate America to be better, more impactful and more successful as an organization.” (30:18, Joan Garry)

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For more: joangarry.com/podcast
Learn about the Nonprofit Leadership Lab: nonprofitleadershiplab.com/podcast

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Transcript

[Joan Garry]

So, as many of you may know, I lived in the corporate sector for 14 years before I leapt off a.

[Glenda Testone]

Cliff and moved into the nonprofit sector.

[Joan Garry]

Clearly it worked out pretty well for me, as after I left being a nonprofit executive director, I have now become something of a nonprofit evangelist. But that wasn't quite so at the very beginning. And I believed, perhaps with a slight bit of arrogance, that I was bringing something to the nonprofit sector that it didn't have, that it really needed the skills you learn in the for profit sector. And that wasn't untrue. I then thought, you know, it would be great to have some additional person power that also had corporate experience. And so I went in search of a senior level person who had a commitment and a passion for what we did at GLAAD and came from the private sector. And I landed on this one particular individual.

He indeed brought an expertise and a skill level that I might not have found in the nonprofit sector at perhaps at the size the organization was at at the time. But this individual was deeply committed to the cause and was by every measure a badass senior executive. And then he arrived, and almost every interaction he had with folks that did not have for profit experience felt like.

[Glenda Testone]

This, let me help you little people arrogance.

[Joan Garry]

Now, I had come, as I said, from corporate America. I was not under the illusion that for profit businesses were some kind of North Star. I had a curiosity and openness to learning what nonprofit work was like and to bring what I had and to learn. And I did. I can tell you that that particular individual who wanted to be with the.

[Glenda Testone]

Little people.

Did not last at glad.

[Joan Garry]

And it has long given me pause to think about the disparity in the attitudes that people have of each sector. And today I want to talk about the lessons I am convinced that corporate.

[Glenda Testone]

America would benefit from that the nonprofit sector is uniquely suited to teach them.

[Joan Garry]

That story about that hire was a long time ago, and we can fast forward many years. And I can tell you that I'm sought out all the time by folks ready to leave the corporate sector on the hunt for meaning and purpose that.

[Glenda Testone]

They are not finding in their current work.

[Joan Garry]

Or folks who have had the great good fortune of retiring early. Maybe they're in their mid-60s and they find the idea of a day of pickleball to be rather frightening. I find that frightening too, and I like pickleball. Often these conversations are framed as here's what to expect. That is quite different in the nonprofit sector from the land you'd be coming from. And folks find those conversations quite useful. But today I offer a different framing and I do so with intention. You can expect me to be a bit unplugged because I'm not going to lie. I am so frustrated and angry at the reputation the entire nonprofit sector has developed because of this narrative that nonprofits.

[Glenda Testone]

Don'T run like businesses, that we're not.

[Joan Garry]

As mature or grown up. I want to bust that myth right? I'm fed up with the holier than thou attitude of corporate America, as if all businesses are well run. Seriously. And I'm fed up with a lack of appreciation for how nonprofits do in fact operate and what there is to be gleaned from that. For corporate leaders since 2010, I've run this firm. It's a for profit firm that has offered nonprofit leaders coaching, consulting, free advice through my blog and my podcast, keynote speeches, workshops, a book. And I've scaled all of that to reach thousands around the world through an online membership site with content and community for board and staff leaders of small.

[Glenda Testone]

To mid sized nonprofits.

[Joan Garry]

It's called the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. Make no mistake, my company is a for profit business, an enterprise with reach, impact and a P and L. When we hired nonprofit leader, fierce advocate, fundraiser extraordinaire and a charismatic public speaker to run this enterprise for us last year, and her name is Glenda Testone, we did so knowing that she had not a day of experience working in a for profit company. After a year on the job, she.

[Glenda Testone]

Tells me that it feels like a nonprofit.

[Joan Garry]

I'm hoping that in this podcast I can offer you some lessons that I learned from the nonprofit sector that we.

[Glenda Testone]

Have centered in our business.

[Joan Garry]

I offer these lessons in a sector agnostic way to help nonprofits leaders appreciate and celebrate this unique DNA in a sector and to help for profit leaders understand that there might just be a.

[Glenda Testone]

Different and better way to run your business.

[Joan Garry]

And maybe it's not just a might.

[Glenda Testone]

Be a different way.

[Joan Garry]

I'm going to argue there needs to be a different way in the world.

[Glenda Testone]

We live in today.

[Joan Garry]

So ultimately I'm kind of believing that I'm advocating today for a hybrid approach. And I like to think I built.

[Glenda Testone]

A hybrid before everyone else had one. Foreign.

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with.

[Joan Garry]

Joan, Gary and Experts.

[Podcast Host]

This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we Tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now, let's jump in.

[Joan Garry]

So let's start by what we're shooting for in an organization, a thriving organization. So you want it to be well.

[Glenda Testone]

Managed and fiscally healthy.

[Joan Garry]

You want folks and departments to have.

[Glenda Testone]

Plans and goals and to be held accountable to them.

[Joan Garry]

You want to articulate clear results and.

[Glenda Testone]

Impact to whether it's donors or investors.

[Joan Garry]

You want to have a bit of a spirit of innovation, to take risks.

[Glenda Testone]

To try something new.

[Joan Garry]

You want to make the very best hires and never hire the best of.

[Glenda Testone]

A mediocre lot in the interest of expediency.

[Joan Garry]

You want a workplace where your employees feel a real sense of respect. And you want performance, right? Whether that's the number of products you sell or the number of meals you serve. You want that impact to grow as the revenue does. But impact goes first. Okay, so for me.

Those are the same regardless of sector. Now, when you drill down to how you get there, there are some also clear similarities.

So how do you get to all those things I just talked about? Well, you position.

Your organization as an exciting opportunity.

[Glenda Testone]

You might call that a vision, right?

[Joan Garry]

You're doing really interesting, exciting things. With that in mind, you then go and curate and make sure you have.

[Glenda Testone]

The right people on the bus.

[Joan Garry]

You define success and impact, and that becomes the foundation for goals and accountability. And if you do those things right, your people are feeling success, they feel the excitement. And it helps to build retention of.

[Glenda Testone]

Those good folks you've curated on your bus.

[Joan Garry]

That ultimately your team is more engaged. They feel seen for who they are, their voices are valued, they derive meaning.

[Glenda Testone]

And purpose from their work, and they.

[Joan Garry]

Look to a leader for motivation that.

[Glenda Testone]

Is more than about KPIs.

[Joan Garry]

This list, I believe, is one that the for profit sector may not be.

[Glenda Testone]

Focusing on quite enough.

[Joan Garry]

But for the nonprofit sector.

Vision, right? People on the bus, impact, retention, engaged staff who have a voice, who derive meaning from their work, who look to their leader for motivation.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what a nonprofit, it looks like.

[Joan Garry]

And feels like when it thrives. I believe that if you believe what I've just said, then the nonprofit sector.

[Glenda Testone]

Has important lessons to impart.

[Joan Garry]

And I have come up with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 of them. I could have stretched and come up with two more to make it an.

[Glenda Testone]

Even 10, but that's just not how I roll.

[Joan Garry]

Okay, Here we go. Number one, power. You know, I say that nonprofits are.

[Glenda Testone]

Messy, and I'd never mean it as a pejorative.

[Joan Garry]

And I don't use it as a pejorative because it has a different kind of model.

[Glenda Testone]

I call it shared leadership. Board and staff in partnership with one another to ensure that the organization fulfills.

[Joan Garry]

Its mission and moves in the direction of a visionary destination.

[Glenda Testone]

Shared leadership.

[Joan Garry]

That is very different from hierarchy. I don't believe that the best nonprofits center hierarchy. I don't believe they did, and I.

[Glenda Testone]

Don'T believe they should in the world we live in today. The CEO of the Girl Scouts of America long ago was quoted when she got her new gig and someone asked her, what does it feel like to be, you know, sort of the head honcho of the Girl Scouts? And I'm paraphrasing, she said something like, I don't feel like a head honcho because I don't feel like I am on top of everything because the power comes from all around me.

[Joan Garry]

And I believe that to be very, very true.

[Glenda Testone]

In the nonprofit space, I as a.

[Joan Garry]

Leader derive my power from, from my board, my donors, my stakeholders, my staff. I'm sort of a quarterback now. Do I have the final say? In most cases, yes, I do. I believe that to think about diffuse power and shared power does many, many.

[Glenda Testone]

Important things for your organization. And a lesson that the for profit sector would be wise to consider.

[Joan Garry]

Number two, I call it hearing voices. And I don't mean it the way it sounds.

[Glenda Testone]

That's why I was laughing.

[Joan Garry]

People who decide to come to work.

[Glenda Testone]

In a nonprofit expect to have their voices heard.

[Joan Garry]

Gen Z employees in the workplace, for profit, nonprofit, doesn't matter where they come.

[Glenda Testone]

Expecting their voices to be heard.

[Joan Garry]

And I believe that one of the reasons we as a sector can really attract, retain, grow Gen Z employees is because we understand that is that people.

[Glenda Testone]

Come to have a voice, right?

[Joan Garry]

Did I come to Showtime or MTV to have a voice?

[Glenda Testone]

I certainly expected that I would add.

[Joan Garry]

Value by virtue of my voice. But because of that power thing I.

[Glenda Testone]

Just talked about, I could defer.

[Joan Garry]

Gen Z folks, don't defer. Nonprofit folks, as a general rule, don't defer.

[Glenda Testone]

We're disruptors, right?

[Joan Garry]

One of the reasons we're in this.

[Glenda Testone]

Line of work is because we came to use our voice and we expect it to be heard.

[Joan Garry]

That is messy.

[Glenda Testone]

But I would say that this is.

[Joan Garry]

A lesson corporate America and corporate leaders.

[Glenda Testone]

Need to really grapple with.

[Joan Garry]

How do I make sure my organization.

[Glenda Testone]

My team, my donors, my board, how Do I ensure that their voice is heard right?

[Joan Garry]

My success is not necessarily measured in the nonprofit space by that big fat year end bonus. I put my head on the pillow at night, feeling like I've had a great day at the office when I have helped shape the impact on a.

[Glenda Testone]

Client, a cause or a community that I'm advocating for.

[Joan Garry]

So power hearing voices, number three, navigating multiple competing and vocal constituencies.

Once upon a time, that didn't matter so much in the for profit sector. Now there are competing and vocal constituencies everywhere we look. But that has always been the case.

[Glenda Testone]

In the nonprofit sector.

[Joan Garry]

And chatting with a nonprofit leader about how they talk to a donor who vehemently disagrees with a position your organization has taken and still gives money would be such a valuable use of your time. Nonprofit leaders are constantly navigating the voices of these constituencies, all of whom have a certain degree of power. So these first three are very interconnected. Power, voice, and navigating competing constituencies or multiple competing constituencies. It requires a level of emotional intelligence that we, I don't think, build or cultivate often enough in the for profit sector. And I welcome comments to the contrary. So those are the first three. The fourth one I'm going to call dealing with the feelings. When I arrived to the nonprofit sector.

I didn't know this because you see.

[Glenda Testone]

Where I came from, MTV and Showtime.

[Joan Garry]

There was no crying. There was no crying in corporate life.

I remember going to my first retreat, facilitating my first retreat with my staff. And the kinds of retreats we had in corporate life were fun, team building, bonding, a little bit of strategy, some planning the year ahead.

[Glenda Testone]

But feelings.

[Joan Garry]

Vulnerable conversations?

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, no, no. But they're important.

[Joan Garry]

But people who decide to work in a nonprofit, their feelings are much more.

[Glenda Testone]

Central because the work they do is emotional. Emotional.

[Joan Garry]

And you can't disregard it. And in fact, you do so at.

[Glenda Testone]

Your own peril, right?

[Joan Garry]

People feel this work deeply and you.

[Glenda Testone]

Actually have to make space for that.

[Joan Garry]

Now, did I go to friends after my first retreat and said, why didn't somebody tell me that people cry at.

[Glenda Testone]

Retreats in the nonprofit sector?

[Joan Garry]

And of course, most of them had only been in the nonprofit sector and said, oh, people don't cry at for profit retreats.

[Glenda Testone]

No, no, not usually, I'd say, right?

[Joan Garry]

So dealing with these feelings, recognizing that people have an emotional attachment to their.

[Glenda Testone]

Work, such a good thing.

[Joan Garry]

But boy, does it require again, a lot of EQ to navigate that, to not let it overtake getting the work.

[Glenda Testone]

Done and to let it be part of what fuels people and Propels you forward.

[Joan Garry]

Number five lesson for corporate leaders to learn from nonprofits.

And I believe this is probably a lesson that corporate leaders started to really come face to face with during the.

[Glenda Testone]

Pandemic is managing in three dimensions.

There's just so much good work out there, so many great studies about the importance of knowing people in three dimensions.

[Joan Garry]

Back in the day when I was at mtv, I would kibitz with people, literally when I was getting my cup of coffee at the water cooler, about our kids, our families, how we were spending the holidays. And that time in the coffee room wasn't just some way to keep me.

[Glenda Testone]

From going back to my desk to do my work.

[Joan Garry]

It was actually essential to my job satisfaction. And it is in the nonprofit sector, non negotiable. I didn't come for my year end bonus. I came for meaning, for purpose. I came to be seen for who I am.

[Glenda Testone]

I have a lot of skin in.

[Joan Garry]

The game and I expect to be known. So you start a Monday morning and you don't ask somebody about their weekend.

[Glenda Testone]

That's a problem, right?

[Joan Garry]

If it's all about your to do.

[Glenda Testone]

List, your KPIs, you're going to miss something really important.

[Joan Garry]

And it ties back to what I just called dealing with the feelings.

[Glenda Testone]

Right?

[Joan Garry]

Is I come as an emotional human.

[Glenda Testone]

Being to nonprofit work.

[Joan Garry]

I get a lot of grief on my team for doing what in Yiddish is called kibitzing. I will kibitz with Christie or Joy. I will kibbitz with Crystal. Doesn't matter. Or Amy. Clown around a bit. Some people think I do it to entertain myself.

[Glenda Testone]

And there's a little part of that that's probably true.

[Joan Garry]

But I do it because this is When I see these people on Zoom. Our workforce is entirely remote. Right. Oh, my gosh. It looks like you've got a new piece of art in your. In your living room.

[Glenda Testone]

Tell me about it. Right, 3D.

[Joan Garry]

Now, I have seen through my clients in many situations where this 3D thing can actually get them into trouble. And you will know I am talking.

[Glenda Testone]

About you when I say this, that.

[Joan Garry]

It can thwart your ability to hold someone accountable if you know that while managing in 3D that you know that something, something big is happening in their personal lives. But you should know that something big is happening in their personal lives. And you would want to know. And you need to figure out the best way to know that, to honor that, to give people the space they need. And remember that you are beholden to every human who has donated a dollar.

[Glenda Testone]

To your cause to do smart Impactful work. And that means accountability.

[Joan Garry]

So we've got power voices, multiple constituencies, feelings, managing in 3D.

[Glenda Testone]

The next one is purpose.

[Joan Garry]

Now, I could have put that at the top of the list, but it wasn't really prioritizing the list in that way. But this is the nonprofit secret sauce.

[Glenda Testone]

Not so secret.

[Joan Garry]

A nonprofit exists for a purpose, a mission. All nonprofits exist to change the world.

[Glenda Testone]

In ways large and small. Whether it is working to promote child literacy, whether it is a domestic violence shelter, whether it is an orchestra. Doesn't matter. If you are a nonprofit, you're looking to change the world in some significant way.

[Joan Garry]

And. And because we are all so very.

[Glenda Testone]

Very, very clear that the world needs to be repaired, we are holding the antidote.

[Joan Garry]

Does that mean that Showtime or Apple.

[Glenda Testone]

Or your local independent bookstore or the.

[Joan Garry]

Toy store here in Montclair, does that.

[Glenda Testone]

Mean that they don't have a purpose? Uh, no, it doesn't, actually.

[Joan Garry]

There is an origin story of every.

[Glenda Testone]

Company or nonprofit.

[Joan Garry]

That can be mined.

[Glenda Testone]

And message in a way that excites people about the opportunities.

That excite people about what that product or what that mission makes possible.

[Joan Garry]

And.

[Glenda Testone]

Far too frequently in the for profit sector, what ends up happening is that is presumed right.

[Joan Garry]

It is presumed that you are bringing joy and laughter and culture when you, you know that music when you work at Showtime.

[Glenda Testone]

But what are you really doing? What's that all in the service of? Right?

[Joan Garry]

And thinking about those things or the.

[Glenda Testone]

Local toy store that can curate and.

[Joan Garry]

Figure out exactly what I should get.

[Glenda Testone]

For my grandson for Hanukkah.

[Joan Garry]

Everybody has something that makes their work distinctive and creates some level of excitement.

[Glenda Testone]

About the opportunity to be a part of it.

[Joan Garry]

And the for profit sector could easily.

[Glenda Testone]

Take a lesson from the nonprofit playbook in this regard.

[Joan Garry]

Now, Daniel Pink says the three big drivers of job satisfaction, autonomy, mastery and.

[Glenda Testone]

And purpose.

[Joan Garry]

The nonprofit sector knows from purpose. And by the way, you want the best possible young people to come work for you, you better be selling purpose, because that's what they're looking for. You better be showing your values, because they're going to be asking about them.

[Glenda Testone]

And where do purpose and values, where are they most front and center in a nonprofit organization?

[Joan Garry]

Power voices, multiple constituencies, Dealing with the feelings, managing in 3D.

[Glenda Testone]

Purpose.

[Joan Garry]

That's number six. Here's number seven.

Growth and development.

Now, those of you in the nonprofit sector might be laughing right now because you're going to say to yourselves, are you kidding me right now, Joan? Do you think we have like a professional development budget?

[Glenda Testone]

Well, if you don't you should, even if it's nominal.

[Joan Garry]

But I'm talking about something that's part of the culture, really, and that is to give people new opportunities to try different things and not so much put them in a bucket that says, this is your thing, this is what you.

[Glenda Testone]

Do, this is right.

[Joan Garry]

This is your thing, and this is what you do. I often talk to college students when I'm doing mentoring for my alma mater and say, you're a communications student. Go work at a nonprofit for a couple of years and get in the communications department. There's nothing you won't do. You'll get to do everything. And it will actually build your skills, and it'll also help you better understand what things really light you up. So the small but mighty thing can be a real asset in terms of the idea that you came in to do the thing. But there are other things that need to be done, and often not enough resources to do them. All of a sudden, you are handed the opportunity to learn to do something new because of that fluidity, because of that voice, because of that shared leadership, because of the lack of hierarchy, more of those conversations take place. Whereas in a hierarchical environment, I'm a coordinator, and if I'm a very good coordinator of X, I might get promoted to be a manager of X or.

[Glenda Testone]

Then a director of X.

[Joan Garry]

And I actually feel like this is a lesson that corporate America brings over to the nonprofit sector. That's not so good, this notion of titles, hierarchical promotions, why am I not a vp? And when everybody else is all of that, it's, what are you learning? What kind of a job satisfaction do you have? Do you feel a mastery over your work? Are you growing and developing so that you can in fact advance in your organization? Or conversely, you have developed new skills.

[Glenda Testone]

You can take with you wherever you go next?

[Joan Garry]

And that goes back to that we talked about purpose, autonomy, and mastery. Am I getting great at what I do? Am I learning new things that I.

[Glenda Testone]

Can be great at? Oh, my gosh, what a driver of retention that is.

[Joan Garry]

As opposed to, okay, I was a coordinator of X, and the manager just left. I want to be the manager of X. And the growth and professional development of opportunity associated with that almost comes secondary to the, I got a better title and I got more money.

[Glenda Testone]

We have to be careful about that.

[Joan Garry]

And then number eight, I save for.

[Glenda Testone]

Last, which is leadership.

[Joan Garry]

And I see this with leaders who have come from. From corporate life into the nonprofit sector.

[Glenda Testone]

As executive directors or CEOs. They're missing something when they get here.

[Joan Garry]

And I think the corporate CEOs are.

[Glenda Testone]

Missing what really great nonprofit leaders do best. I could call it the goosebump effect. I could call it just plain old good old fashioned inspiration. I talked about purpose as one of these eight things. I need stories of purpose, stories of why.

To be fed to all of those constituencies, the people around me who have voices, the constituencies that are vast and diverse and often competing.

[Joan Garry]

I, as a leader, have a platform.

[Glenda Testone]

To bring them all together around a compelling why.

I, as a leader, have an opportunity to be a storyteller whose stories motivate people to be the best leaders and managers they can be. Those folks who are CEOs who do.

[Joan Garry]

Not realize how vital that influence is.

I have seen it far too often.

[Glenda Testone]

They do not run thriving nonprofits. They do not recruit the best people, either on their staffs or on their boards, and they don't retain them.

[Joan Garry]

And I believe that that.

[Glenda Testone]

As a corporate leader is, is your biggest opportunity.

[Joan Garry]

Is how can I think about my.

[Glenda Testone]

Job in a way that lights people up, that fills their tank?

[Joan Garry]

Trust me when I say organizational goals and KPIs and metrics and the granular. We achieved our goals not unimportant and certainly not to shareholders. They're very important.

But to me as a person.

[Glenda Testone]

Right.

What is it that we've done.

That makes me excited? Where are we going in the next couple of years?

[Joan Garry]

What's the journey I want to be on?

[Glenda Testone]

I'm excited to be a part of?

[Joan Garry]

This is what great nonprofit leaders do.

[Glenda Testone]

And it's what corporate leaders need to do.

[Joan Garry]

And all of these things that I've.

[Glenda Testone]

Just talked about are particularly important in the world we live in today.

We live in a world with a younger generation of people that come to the workplace expecting these things.

We come to a world where we have four generations of workers, from Gen Z to boomers who are not retiring.

[Joan Garry]

And we come to a world that.

[Glenda Testone]

More explicitly needs repair.

[Joan Garry]

And so there are opportunities. And I do believe, I just want to say, I do believe that I am an effective coach because of the.

[Glenda Testone]

14 years I spent in corporate life. Understanding management, basic management supervision, performance evaluations.

[Joan Garry]

Some of the rigor that comes with that. I brought my financial acumen, monthly financial statements, how they drive your work, the stories, the numbers tell that came with me. It was in my rollerboard when I.

[Glenda Testone]

Arrived in the nonprofit sector.

[Joan Garry]

But do know that there are at least eight ways in which the nonprofit.

[Glenda Testone]

Sector can teach you in corporate America to be better, more impactful and more successful as an organization.

[Joan Garry]

So final thoughts I hope you believe.

[Glenda Testone]

That this is an important conversation. Well, okay, it wasn't a conversation. It was a monologue.

[Joan Garry]

Yeah, but here's why I believe it's important.

If more board members and donors understood.

[Glenda Testone]

The things I've talked about today, they.

[Joan Garry]

Would appreciate nonprofit leadership in a different.

[Glenda Testone]

Way and see its real value.

[Joan Garry]

Value. They wouldn't attempt to impose something else on it that doesn't fit. They wouldn't be skeptical. They would appreciate how hard it is to get all of those things I just talked about, how to get them right or even right. Ish. That's one reason why it's important. And here's the other one. I'm going to call it the Big Finish. If more people really understood the lessons.

[Glenda Testone]

The nonprofit sector has to teach us.

[Joan Garry]

I am convinced we would increase trust that people have in the sector. We could move away from the bashing of the sector that I see that pains me. And we could move towards a universal admiration for those of you who are listening. For the organizations you run, for the causes you hold dear, and for the sector that is doing remarkable work. And I believe this is an admiration that is sorely lacking in our society.

[Glenda Testone]

And it is the admiration I feel for each of you every day in my work. So thank you for fueling me, for fueling your organization, and for fueling our society towards a better place.

Take good care and I'll see you next time.

[Joan Garry]

Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them drgtalent.com and and tell them Joan Gary send you transform the way you lead your nonprofit with expert advice and a vibrant community. At our nonprofit Leadership Lab, thousands of kindred spirits from all around the world find time saving resources, trainings from experts and a best in class team to help you. You get a good dose of me and a remarkable community. You will never feel alone with us. And we have the antidote to so many of of the challenges you face. To learn more and request an invitation head on over to nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. Especially Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good.

For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a place better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.