Ep 244: The Board Chair–CEO Blueprint: What Every Nonprofit Can Learn from Girl Scouts USA

Summary

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Nonprofits Are Messy — Ep 244: The Board Chair–CEO Blueprint: What Every Nonprofit Can Learn from Girl Scouts USA

Date: January 3, 2026
Host: Glenda Testone (with Joan Garry)
Guests: Bonnie Bartczykowski (CEO, Girl Scouts USA), Naran Khan (Board President, Girl Scouts USA)

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Overview

This episode centers on the transformational power of an effective Board Chair–CEO partnership in nonprofit organizations. Drawing on the experiences of Girl Scouts USA, CEO Bonnie Bartczykowski and Board President Naran Khan share their blueprint for building a strong, intentional, and high-functioning relationship—one that energizes the entire organization. The discussion tackles practical strategies for collaboration, candid advice for navigating challenges, and concrete steps for institutionalizing healthy governance, making it a must-listen (and must-read!) for nonprofit leaders and boards everywhere.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of the Board Chair–CEO Relationship

• The “Magic” of Partnership:
  Glenda Testone: “When this relationship is working well, it is magic. And it can be like a turbocharger for your organization. And when it's not working well, it can take all of that energy and suck it right out of both of you, your organization, and your mission.” [00:24]
• This partnership is foundational but not widely or deeply discussed in actionable terms.

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2. Their Unique Paths to Leadership and Perspective

• Bonnie’s Journey: Combined experience in both council governance and operations at a local and national level; this blend brings both strategic and practical insight. [03:27]
• Naran’s Background: From a Girl Scout herself to work at the Ford Foundation, with experience both as a funder and a nonprofit insider. Saw firsthand how boards either empower or derail an organization. [04:06]
• Mutual Understanding: Both have sat in "each other's seats" in some way, which helps build empathy and shared vision.

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3. Forming the Partnership: Intentional Beginnings

• No Preexisting Relationship Required:
  Naran Khan: “You don't need to be best friends beforehand. In fact, we have this incredible working partnership because we got to know each other through work...I also said yes to a partnership like this.” [06:13]
• Pre-Start Meeting & Retreat:
  • Met intentionally before roles began to align on vision/goals.
  • Held a deep-dive orientation retreat with consultant Lucy Mayo.
  • Used exercises like a “how we work” questionnaire, with answers used as a springboard for facilitated discussion. [07:45–09:08]

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4. Practical Tools & Routines for Partnership Success

• Weekly Standing Meeting:
  • 45 minutes every week, always with a pre-shared agenda & action items.
    Bonnie Bartczykowski: “I share [the agenda] in advance...when we leave a conversation, there's not any wondering what comes next.” [12:12]
• Shared Priorities and Openness:
  • Meetings are a “number one energy booster.”
    Naran Khan: “I feel affirmed and I feel like we have a plan...having that space where we can solve the problems, live and get moving is very energizing.” [13:20]
  • Emphasis on cascading shared priorities into the broader organization.

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5. The “Secret Sauce”: Psychological Safety, Debriefs & Learning

• Creating Space for Honest Conversation:
  • Meetings are not just operational—they allow for debriefs, reflecting on dynamics, and sharing observations from unique perspectives.
    Naran Khan: “For Bonnie...those roles are very lonely...it's really important to establish a space where [the CEO] can share reflections on something without feeling like something needs to be solved immediately...a sense of psychological safety.” [15:41]
• Mutual Respect in Disagreement:
  • Always center disagreements around the mission: “putting our Girl Scouts at the center of every decision.” [17:00, Bonnie]
  • Use outside perspectives and, at impasse, include others (e.g., executive committee) or external experts as sounding boards. [18:07]
  • Avoid rushing tough conversations; allow adequate (sometimes additional) time to work through issues deeply.

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6. Navigating Conflict & Role Clarity

• Healthy Disagreement = Good Partnership:
  • “If you agree on everything, it's probably not even a good partnership.” [19:56, Naran]
  • Focus on roles: Board as governance, CEO/staff as management/operations.
  • Be explicit about division of labor during strategic conversations: “What’s the board’s role in going here? Who’s going to raise their hand to have XYZ role?” [22:44]
• Clarity for All:
  • Board chair leads the board, champions CEO’s relationships with all board members, and is responsible for modeling how to show up with respect.
  • Establish and communicate norms about how board members interact with staff to avoid confusion or mixed messages.

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7. Extending the Partnership Organization-Wide

• Board & Staff Relationships:
  • Executive team regularly attend board meetings—not just filtered updates—to foster direct relationship and empathy. [28:38, Bonnie]
  • Early retreat activities (“World Cafe”) built strong initial connections.
  • Norms/protocols about board–staff communication are codified and respected.
  • Executive sessions are built into every board meeting, not ad hoc—a space for alignment and feedback, not just problems. [29:35, Naran]

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8. Institutionalizing What Works: Intentionality Beyond Individuals

• Sustainability:
  Bonnie Bartczykowski: “I can't assume that [our way of working] gets carried into...the next partnership...The intentionality...is so critical.” [32:25]
• Nominating Committees:
  • Vital role in not just selecting new board members but actively maintaining the culture, norms, and infrastructure that support great partnerships. [33:00–34:25, Naran]
  • Board composition should support where the organization is headed—skills-based, not just personal connections.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Insights

• On Intentional Partnership:
  “I was saying yes to the board, but I was also saying yes to this partnership with Bonnie.” — Naran Khan [06:13]
• On Debriefing:
  “When we debrief, it's not about me getting off my chest what I saw, but...‘Wow, she saw that, I didn't notice that.’” — Naran Khan [07:45]
• On Role Clarity:
  “I do think it's very important to get concrete about what good governance looks like for board members...to not shy away from having those difficult conversations.” — Naran Khan [22:44]
• On Psychological Safety:
  “I can have a very candid conversation with Naran on something that might be a big nugget...talk through what part does governance play in this, what part does operation play in this.” — Bonnie Bartczykowski [24:14]
• On Board Intentions:
  “We can't weaponize our good intentions.” — Naran Khan [26:13]
• On Sustainability:
  “The intentionality of everything we've done to carry that into that next partnership at some point is so critical...that other individual is going to be different.” — Bonnie Bartczykowski [32:25]
• On Board Recruitment:
  “Nominating committees...have a very important role in assessing and understanding the governance talent it will take to move an organization forward.” — Naran Khan [33:00]
• On Modeling for the Movement:
  “We have a real responsibility at the board and management level nationally to embody the things that we teach all of our members.” — Naran Khan [27:26]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–03:27: Introductions, backgrounds, and why the partnership matters
• 05:42–07:45: How Bonnie and Naran built their partnership from day one
• 09:03–09:39: Foundational exercises and using an outside facilitator
• 12:12–14:48: The nuts and bolts of their weekly meetings and meeting culture
• 15:41–17:21: Psychological safety and the value of honest, non-rushed conversations
• 18:07–20:40: Inviting outside perspectives and learning through difference
• 21:52–24:09: Role clarity and avoiding blurred lines between board governance and operations
• 28:38–31:54: Bridging board/staff understanding, communication, and relationships
• 32:25–34:44: Institutionalizing the partnership and nominating committee’s strategic role

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Takeaways for Nonprofit Leaders

• Intentional design and maintenance of CEO/Board Chair partnerships are vital.
• Weekly, agenda-driven meetings with space for strategic and candid conversation foster trust and action.
• Psychological safety and role clarity build strong, resilient partnerships and protect against conflict escalation.
• Extend healthy dynamic organization-wide through norms, direct experience, and transparent communication.
• The organizational partnership should outlast individuals—invest in sustaining infrastructure and processes.
• Nominating committees are strategic anchors, not afterthoughts; board culture is everyone’s responsibility.

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This summary captures the spirit, detailed insights, and actionable wisdom shared in the episode—an essential reference for nonprofit board and executive leaders seeking to unlock the full potential of their partnerships.

Transcript

[Glenda Testone]

Hi, my name is Glenda Testone, and I'm the CEO of the nonprofit Leadership Lab and a senior partner at Joan Gary Consulting. One of the questions that I get asked most often as an executive coach, a nonprofit leadership champion, and as the CEO of the nonprofit Leadership Lab is, can you guess? How do you build a good, even great relationship between the staff lead, usually called the executive director, CEO, president, whatever, and the board lead? Board president, board chair. As many of you know, when this relationship is working well, it is magic. And it can be like a turbocharger for your organization. And when it's not working well, it can take all of that energy and. And suck it right out of both of you, your organization, and your mission. So if it's so important, why don't we hear more about it going well and why and how can we actually help it go well? We're going to start to hear about that today by speaking to Naran Khan, Board President, and Bonnie Bartczykowski, CEO of the Girl Scouts of the usa. Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice, and inspiration, designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we are here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now, let's jump in. Bonnie Bartczakowski joined the Girl scouts of the USA in 2023. As chief executive Officer, Bonnie is honored to lead an organization to which she is so deeply devoted. Having previously spent more than 10 years as chief Executive Officer of the Girl Scouts of Eastern Missouri, Narayan Khan spent nearly a decade at the Ford foundation, where she built and led the first ever discretionary program team. During her tenure, she oversaw Ford's largest program area with 500 million in grant making. Noran credits the Girl Scouts with sparking her interest in social impact during her experience as a troop member in her native Michigan. Welcome, Bonnie and Naran.

[Naran Khan]

Thanks so much for having us. We're thrilled to be here.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you both again. And I'm so excited we're tackling this topic. And it really is probably the question I most often get asked, how do you do this? How do you make sure it goes well? So I want to start at the beginning. Let's start with you, Bonnie. How did you get to where you are now? Leading gsusa. Anything you might want to lift up that taught you about how a great partnership could work?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

I've been at GSUSA now in my current role for two and a half years and. And prior to that, did spend a decade leading a local Girl Scout council. So I was interviewed and honored to serve on the board. So the piece that I am fortunate for, the uniqueness is that I've had council governance, experience, operational, and then leading a CEO. So bringing that all to the current role is a phenomenal blend.

[Glenda Testone]

And NORAN for you, tell us a little, give us a little behind the scenes, how did you get to where you are? And if there's anything in particular you want to raise up from a partnership that really taught you about how great partnerships could work, that would be great.

[Naran Khan]

Sure. I grew up as a Girl Scout starting in second grade, and I earned Girl Scouting's highest award in high school, the Gold Award. It was totally always where my heart was and where I wanted to spend the extra time, talent, energy. So it's been a real privilege. And on the professional side of things, I think first working at a nonprofit and liaising with our board and then ultimately ending up at a funder and seeing the highest performing organizations across the country and around the world, what really unlocked talent for them. I think in the best of instances, I witnessed boards making incredible introductions, offering resources, insight, and unlocking things for a CEO. And on the other side of things, I saw disharmony, distraction in a way that really took away from the organizational mission. So I was able to see it from a landscape perspective during my time at Ford. And so I, I think the combination of both of those things, knowing where my heart was for an organization I care so much about and then understanding what it takes to be best, is really what I brought to this relationship, this incredible relationship, partnership that I have with Bonnie.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I. That makes so much sense. And I just want to lift up. You both have sat in so many different seats, board, staff, funder, nonprofit. I can't imagine that hurts when you're trying to build a partnership. The fact that you have sat in each other's seats to some degree, that's amazing. I want to bring you both together now and talk about when and how did you meet and did you know each other before assuming these positions?

[Naran Khan]

Yes.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

So Naran and I did not know each other beforehand, but knowing that Naran was going to be installed as the new board president, we intentionally came together and Met in advance. So that was a good opportunity to go where's the shared vision and shared goals for the organization and just to get to know each other.

[Naran Khan]

Yeah. But it is really interesting to come into such a deep partnership and relationship with someone not having a preexisting deep relationship. I think that should be actually inspiring for people.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Naran Khan]

You don't need to be best friends beforehand. And in fact, we have this incredible working partnership because we got to know each other through work and we've gotten to know each other personally obviously through our partnership, but certainly obviously said yes to the role. But I also said yes to a partnership like this too.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, I think that's so important. I first, I love that you didn't know each other beforehand because it dispels the myth that like you need to have some foundation or some relationship beforehand to build a good partnership. So that's fantastic. And second, the fact that I think when a lot of people assume these positions, especially on the board side, maybe because it is a volunteer position. So I always thought about as the partnership between the two of you. So I love Naran that you said like I was saying yes to the board, but I was also saying yes to this partnership with Bonnie. So how did you. All these partnerships there. There's so many things that I think we've done a good job of in the nonprofit sector at formalizing. Like I'm sure that you all and many nonprofits have a formal board orientation that when you join the board, you go through that orientation. And then there's the staff orientation. When you join the staff, there's onboarding, but there's not an orientation or an onboarding specifically for the CEO, board president, partnership. And how. What are some of the things that you did or other people did to help you both set up this partnership for success?

[Naran Khan]

We organized a really deep dive board retreat orientation retreat. As our first board meeting, we worked with a consultant named Lucy Mayo, who just really was very thoughtful about. About what that. What we wanted to accomplish not just during that time, but during the whole triennium. We talk in trienniums because we're governed in three year cycles. And in fact, a significant. Our entire board is elected every three years or reelected. So we have a percentage that returns, but there's a real opportunity for reset and coming out of that. She facilitated some time between me and Bonnie. She had us sheet about how we work, who we are. We didn't get to see each other's answers, but we filled it out and she facilitated the conversation between Us, But I think that was incredibly powerful. But after that, like Bonnie, we traveled together like we. We did speaking and work together. And I think some of the downtime we spent was pretty powerful, too. And the last thing I'll say is we have a lot of shared experiences. We're in a big board setting. We're in other places together. I love debriefing with Bonnie. I learned a lot from what she observed about a dynamic or a sit. When we debrief, it's not about me getting off my chest what I saw, but a lot of it was like, wow. Like she saw that. I didn't notice that. And I think that was learning that first year.

[Glenda Testone]

That is so helpful. I love that. Would you add anything, Bonnie?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

I would add that the intentionality that Naran just mentioned, filling out the sheet, the foundational piece of learning, even down to the basic of how we each other work. What's the best time of day to call you or to connect on something? Those are logistical pieces that really help the partners. So it was so wonderful to have this coach. Lucy was amazing. But I've given that advice now to so many CEOs, who their board chair may be a different person every three or six years. How do you foundationally set that partnership up for success?

[Glenda Testone]

I love that we're starting here because I think this is where it starts. And I know so many of my peers, I'm a former executive director, CEO myself, of a nonprofit, and so many of my peers would have a new board chair, a new board president, and there wouldn't even be a meeting to kick it off. It would just be like, okay, see you at the next board meeting. So I love that you intentionally, even if you can't afford a consultant to come in and facilitate this, there are great exercises out there. You can do that just very simply ask people to talk about their work style and their preferences that you could exchange and have an initial conversation with each other about what do you want to do in this time that you are the board lead and I'm the staff lead and what can we do together? So I just love that you guys did that. And that's one of the reasons I was so glad to stumble upon both of you as an example of this working, because we so often hear when it doesn't work, we are going to take just a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about how that partnership works on a regular basis. I appreciate the information about how it started, but how is it operationalized? How do you do it ongoing. So that's where we're going next, listeners.

[Joan Gary]

Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them drgtalent.com and tell them Joan Gary sent you. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills and and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn [e-mail] podcast.

[Glenda Testone]

So how do you both keep the partnership going? How frequently do you connect? What's the agenda? Who runs the meeting? Get specific for folks because I think we often assume that everybody's doing this the same way.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

So intentionally we schedule 45 minutes every single week. So we have a standing meeting and then we have a great agenda that I share in advance that literally lists every topic. But beyond the topic, it's what's the next step coming out of it so that when we leave a conversation there's not any wondering what comes next.

[Glenda Testone]

That's great. And do you send that, Bonnie? Do you say okay, here we talked about this and here are the action items or next steps, whatever you call it. Is that your responsibility? Do you feel like.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

I send it and Naran can add what anything that she wants to add.

[Glenda Testone]

That's amazing. I think what's so great about that is that I know so many leaders who don't have that standing meeting. And so the partnership really doesn't ever develop. It's two people in separate lanes doing their own things. And I think it's so great that you guys come together and work together on that. Tell me about this meeting. How does it like you have this meeting weekly? How does it feel when you leave this meeting? Naran, I'm particularly interested in your perspective, Glenda.

[Naran Khan]

It's my number one energy booster. I get so much out of out. I get so much out of being with my Girl Scout troop. But I would say one of the spaces that I get the most hope and girl Scout energy from is that dynamic with Bonnie, whatever the issue is. And we tackle tough stuff together, stuff we don't always agree on. And I know we'll get to that. But I feel affirmed and I feel like we have a plan and we have a. Like a plan of we have a space by W in which we can tackle things. So I just, I love it. I love the buzz. I love to know what she's working on. I love the energy and rapport we have learning from each other and working together. So it's a huge booster for me because during the course of the week, there'll always be all these. There'll be different challenges, there'll be things that surface. But having that space where we can solve the problems, live and get moving is very energizing.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh my goodness. What is your secret sauce? I think people would love so many nonprofit leaders I know board or staff or both would love to have meetings like that. Weekly check in meetings between the chair and the edu or the board meet. Like what, what makes that such an energy boost, such a positive sense saying.

[Naran Khan]

I just feel it's like action oriented. Yeah. What do you think?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Shared priorities? I think that trickles, that cascades from our time together. There's not separate priorities. Everything we're tackling are shared priorities. So my staff feel it. I think other the board members feel it. So to me, that's the secret sauce.

[Glenda Testone]

I love your point, Naran about debriefing. I think that's so important. When I have seen these partnerships go well and when I have been a part of a partnership that was going well and I feel like it really was about being open to and learning from the other person's perspective and understanding. So it was helpful sometimes to hear from a board member, look, I'm watching your senior team at the meeting and this is what I'm observing. Does this seem right to you or. Look, Bonnie might say I'm looking at the board and here's what I'm observing or here's what I'm seeing. I think those outside perspectives and sharing those can be so helpful. So I'm glad you raised that point. It's meant to give us. It's meant to be additive. Right. It's meant to give something that you don't necessarily have because you're in it. You're doing it every day in your own lane.

[Naran Khan]

And Glenda, I'll just add this, especially as A CEO for Bonnie, like, those roles are very lonely. Right. You're at the helm of something. You are dealing with so much complexity. And I do think it's really important to establish a space where Bonnie can share reflections on something without feeling like something needs to be solved immediately or that I think there needs to be some kind. Some sense of psychological safety.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Naran Khan]

That you're able to establish. So there's a space for that because otherwise it just gets bottled up. Or you have different cohorts of people you can rely on. Maybe you have an executive coach. Those are all things available. But there does need to be a dynamic where you're able to be very honest and understand that in sharing challenges that it's not an adversarial situation in that if you have the shared priorities, you're just trying to solve for something that you both agree is an issue.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, that makes sense. And that's. This is a good time to go there. How do any relationship, any partnership, you're not going to have the same perspectives on everything. So how do you deal with it when you have a difference of opinion or a conflict? I think this can be the place where people are going along, it's going great, and then suddenly you disag and it blows up. How do you handle that?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

I'll step in there and say, putting our Girl Scouts at the center of every decision. Anything that there is something that's perceived as we don't agree on it, it's putting the Girl Scout at the middle of that and really going what's best for across our movement, for all of our councils, for our girls, our volunteers, our staff. To really look at it from the holistic view has been the centering part.

[Glenda Testone]

Of any conversation that makes so much sense. And we. I. That's something in particular. I feel like I've seen people and I myself have tried to emphasize with board members, it's not about any individual on staff or board. It's about the mission of the organization and when nonprofit leaders can keep that at the forefront. I do really think that helps. Have you all ever, like when you do that. One of the things you talked about when we first met was also bringing in other perspectives. If there's something you're disagreeing on and you're thinking, but maybe we're not the experts here. Who should we. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I think that's also so helpful and could be such a resource for other partnerships like this.

[Naran Khan]

Sure. I can offer that. At times when we're having A conversation. And we're at an impasse bringing other people in, whether it's other members of the executive committee, an expert just to help us have additional information that's been really deeply helpful, people we trust. So it's not just about us. This. Our partnership is important, but we are a movement. We are a large movement that represents every residential zip code in this country. So there's a real sense of responsibility to be able to make decisions for everyone collectively. So I think that's important. And some other things that I think are important in the context of inevitable disagreement. If you agree on everything, it's probably not even a good partnership because you are so aligned that there's no different perspectives. So I think two things that are really helpful are that we. I. Bonnie, I don't know if we've ever talked about this explicitly, but I like not to rush when we're talking through something. I think a false. You know, like a time left during the particular meeting is not helpful because you can't dig in more deeply. You can't listen as deeply. And so I find that if sometimes we'll table something, we'll schedule different time for something, but we make sure we have adequate time to go into it. If we have. And frankly, we have a very large board. Glenda. We have 30 plus board members.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Naran Khan]

And we have a large executive committee, too. I like to sit down with Bonnie and come to some kind of agreement with you first. Just. And it's not like it's a dog and pony show in front of other people. We can still have a disagreement. We can still engage other people. But I do. To get to the fundamental underlying issues, even if they're not resolved together so we can get our own house in order. Bonnie, I don't have any other comments on that, But I do think that's been really important in us coming to an agreement when we're coming from totally different places.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Yeah. I want to double down on what Noran said about it wouldn't be a really good relationship if you did agree on everything, because we don't. I have never questioned Naran's intent or where we place that. The priority like that is just never even a question. And so I think that if there is something that we're disagreeing on, it's not in the intent and the purpose of. So the other thing is, I've learned so much over the last two years from Naran because I find myself saying, tell me more, tell me more why you feel this way. It often leads to who else should we engage? Et cetera. But it also is a learning opportunity. So I come at it as I actually enjoy being able to also learn in the process from one another because then we can take that into discussions with other people.

[Glenda Testone]

I appreciate you both getting specific too. I know even as a new executive director I want to can somebody pull back the curtain and tell me how this works? And so something as simple sounding as try not to rush these discussions and try and make sure we have time to hear each other and really listen and is so helpful. I think that's sometimes some of the mismatch that can create the tension is like you have one person in one environment moving at one speed and then you have another person who comes in at a totally different speed and well, hurry up. I gotta go to the next thing. I'm particularly interested in the psychological safety because that does seem so important. It sounds like you both are saying, look, we completely understand and respect each other's motivations for coming at this. And this hasn't been said explicitly. We understand each other's role. Can you talk about role a little bit and also anything you want to share about how you built that psychological safety and mutual respect. Because I think that's so critical to be able to have this good strong partnership.

[Naran Khan]

I'd love to jump in and get started and just say the role piece of this is vital. The idea that our board has a governance role and management really stewards and leads operation. And you'll get a lot of board training where they talk about that. Or you'll get a lot of board training where they're solving. They're trying to solve for a problem. Let's say the problem is a disengaged board.

[Glenda Testone]

Yes.

[Naran Khan]

So they tell all the board members like you get these like platitudes or high level advice. Make sure you're active. So a person hears that they really care about the mission. They're there. They. They're probably donors and they come in and they hear that and they interpret that as I need to get involved, I need to show I care. And that shows up in a way of being overly operational. And so I do worry that we have a whole cottage industry of offering blanket advice to people.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Naran Khan]

And it may not apply to a specific circumstance. And so you're over correcting on other dimensions. One of the things that it's been really important for me to work with my board on and it's been important for Bonnie and I to continue to work on is just what's the Board's role in X conversation. We are having incredible visionary conversations about the future of Girl Scouting right now. And it's so exciting and aspirational. And we continually return to, okay, we're going to go here. What's the board's role in going here and actually talking about that and saying who's going to raise their hand to have XYZ role in that? So I just. I think that it's very important to get concrete about what good governance looks like for board members. What it looks like to show up in the right way and to not shy away from having those difficult conversations. Sometimes it's in front of everyone. Sometimes it's one on one when people are not showing up in the right way. And that's my responsibility as board chair. I lead the board.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah.

[Naran Khan]

And Bonnie, I want Bonnie to have independent relationships with all her board members. Like, I love that. I'm a champion of that. I need to help guide us collectively about where we're going to. And that means literally meeting agreements, how we show up at our meeting, how we prepare for our meetings. We flash ahead of every board meeting. We established those together at our retreat. So, yeah, putting aspiration and vision into action.

[Glenda Testone]

Oh, we love that. I really appreciate that. Did you have anything to add, Bonnie?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Glenda, I would just add when you asked about the psychological safety, I think there's times that CEOs, I'll just speak for our ring. Everything has to be rosy and it's actually not possible to be. So with our big vision and where we're headed and excitement, what will it look like, feel like, be like down the road for Girl Scouting? There are always going to be those things that that psychological safety means. I can have a very candid conversation with Naran on something that might be a big nugget that we need to work on together. And then we're able to talk through what part does governance play in this and what part does operation play in this? And that, again, allows us to not only be aligned, but actually to have that opportunity to address it together.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. I really appreciate you adding that, Bonnie. And I can say, as a former CEO of a nonprofit, being able to share with my board chair, look, here's what I'm worried about. It's not all sunshine and puppy dogs. There are challenges here. And this might happen, and this might happen. And also, I would say, even more specifically, times when I would go through something and say, this is what happened and this is what I did. I think I could have done that better. I actually think this wasn't. I would do it differently next time. And here, being able to acknowledge mistakes and places where things could be better in a place of psychological safety, where it's not a gotcha, it's a oh, okay. Let's. Let's learn from this. I'm glad you're telling me I can help support you in making a different choice the next time. That just feels so important. And I think we know all of this stuff. It gets, as the title of the podcast says, nonprofits are messy. It gets a little messy sometimes in these roles. There's a lot of passion. People care a ton. They want to your point, Noran, they want to show up and do a good job. But what does that mean? Getting really clear on what does that mean? I think is so critical in making work.

[Naran Khan]

Yeah. And like Glenda. Glenda. Excuse me. And Glenda, we need to remember we can't weaponize our good intentions. You can't say, I'm a volunteer. I'm doing this. And therefore my perspective is more important because I'm not being paid. There are some dynamics here that don't exist in a corporate setting that we need to be very honest about, and those dynamics are complicated. But that's why the clarity of the shared goals, the real honest conversations are really important, because you can't lean on your quarter results in a particular empirical way to determine what success looks like. We APIs, we are so data oriented. Bonnie is really driven by our data. But I just find that there are certainly dynamics that are at play here that are not at play in corporate context. And many nonprofit board members only have that corporate contact, so they think they just may have a perspective that we all just have to get aligned around how we treat each other and the underlying respect we have to have for one another, for the roles, for the people, for how we engage. We desperately need that as a sector, and we try to live that out. Like, I just. I feel that way, especially because we are girl scouting. We are teaching our youngest members how to show up when they are not just grownups, but like young activists and in their school settings. So we have a real responsibility at the board and management level nationally to embody the things that we teach all of our members across the country every day.

[Glenda Testone]

I love that. I'm so glad we're having this conversation. I feel like so many people are going to listen to this and take pieces, if not all of it, back to their own situation and their own organizations, and the world will be better for it. So I'm curious. I happen to know from talking to you all before that this is not just something that is happening between the two of you or happening between Bonnie and the board, that this is also like the staff really respects the board and the board really respects the staff. And again, what is your secret? There are so many instances where that absolutely should be the case. You're both coming at it from the shared passion about an organization, but then somehow it goes awry and the staff feels like the board doesn't respect them or the board feels like the staff doesn't understand them after it.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Often I'm grateful. I know it's different for different organizations, but one of the things that Naran did from the get go was the ability for my executive team to attend board meetings as guests of the board meetings. They get to hear directly from our board members. So if I'm just going and I'm transcribing back and sharing it, it's not the same as being able to hear the questions they have, the passions that come into the work that they do. To me, that has just been critical and that has also helped build the partnership between our board treasurer and our CFO and our ability for folks to see we're in this work together. And so it cascades from the partnership we have into the partnership that my staff then have with our board.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah. Because they are literally at the same table. There's not a game of telephone. It's like they are the CFO and the treasurer are both sitting at the table saying here's what's going on with the finances and trying to fix any problems. Did you have anything to add, Naran?

[Naran Khan]

Yeah. At that early retreat, we had a session where we did a little World Cafe where our board members rotated in sessions with pairs of the executive team. We get to understand them and their roles. And that established a really good baseline. At the same time, we've established some norms around how board members communicate with senior staff. There are some instances where we loop in Bonnie or me. There are some more direct relationships. For some committees, I. I never want a staff person to get an email from a board member having to answer an errant question that we're not everyone's not fully in the loop about because then you have your boss and who's this other boss? So the establishing norms and processes around that communication is really important as a follow up to those initial meetings where we got to know each other. And I also just think having proper executive session space for boards for our executive committee just to have our own conversations so that we can be aligned if we want to share a perspective with Bonnie or share a perspective about the organization having that debrief space. And something Bonnie said at the beginning was so awesome. Which is like, Bonnie, make sure you have it at every single meeting and you don't just add it. So no one's wondering why it was added. We all. We don't have to take up the full time, but there's always a space so we can align around offering feedback in the ways we need to or celebrating things in the way we need to or handling our own business. So those are a couple of really tangible ways we, we approach that.

[Glenda Testone]

I really love that I've heard that in the past. I've heard places, organizations where it does seem like that this is going really well between the board and the staff, that there is a regular executive session or there is a regular feedback session in the weekly meetings between the two. So it's not like a once in a while thing. And only when it's negative it can actually.

[Naran Khan]

Exactly. That's exactly right. It shouldn't. Feedback is not an opportunity to air your gripes. It's an opportunity of course, to. To correct course of action that's not right or to allow someone to be more effective by getting a different perspective. It's also a space to be able to celebrate wins, get momentum and get energized. We really do our best when we feel the wind. The wind in our sails a little bit too.

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Yeah.

[Glenda Testone]

Yeah, I love that. I think. Let me just ask one last sort of catch all question. You have given us so much to. To process and think about and so many t. I think that will be helpful to so many people. Do you have anything that you haven't talked about or that you want to raise up here at the end? Just make sure that any board or staff leaders out there who are trying to build this great partnership to drive the organization forward, anything you would want to leave them with?

[Bonnie Bartczykowski]

Definitely. One thing I want to add is that I've gotten to know Noran and our partnership in the way we do things. I can't assume that gets carried into at some point when there is a different board president. So the intentionality of everything we've done to carry that into that next partnership at some point is so critical because I think often for a CEO you feel like you get it down and then you just assume, oh, I'll just continue, but that that other individual is going to be different. So again, the intentionality won't matter.

[Naran Khan]

Deeply I agree. And certainly for our movement, I know our whole movement gets a lot of energy when they get to witness our dynamic or they get to see the incredible things we've built over the last two years and our positive momentum. But I never want anyone that to associate that with us as individuals. We are investing in the norms and infrastructure around this. We're capturing what we can about our processes and our dynamics. We love talking about this dynamic because we have 111 plus councils across the country that where we want to see a board chair, CEO partnership that's not based on a pre existing relationship, a friendship. We believe that this partnership is possible for many different kinds of dynamics if you have a shared goal goal in mind. So we love talking about that because we have such high performing councils, they're the people that carry out our programs. So we're pretty unabashed about that. I also just want to emphasize, and this is, I always love going back to the most boring stuff. But nominating committees of boards are vital. They have very important role in assessing and understanding the governance talent it will take to move an organization forward. So I really want to emphasize that particular role and the responsibility they have not just to select a great board and new board members to select a board chair, but also to institutionalize those governance norms as well. So I'm proud of what we have and I just want to emphasize the criticality of that particular role.

[Glenda Testone]

So I. So you're saying nominating committees are not just the people on the board who find the friends of the other people on the board and ask them to join the board. That's not how it's supposed to work.

[Naran Khan]

Exactly. Where are we going and what governance talent will it take to support management? Operationalizing that.

[Glenda Testone]

Because the thing that's true of any nonprofit is even when you're doing well, you still don't have all the resources you need to go where you're going. And that is where the board. That is where this sort of wonky, a little bit different infrastructure comes in. And the board is supposed to supplement and say look, we're going to do a rebrand this year. Maybe we should get someone that has branding experience on the board so we can have some expertise to help lead this forward. Because most nonprofits can't afford to hire all the talent that they need. And this is one of the ways that, that we fill the gap in some really creative. And I think as long as it's intentional to come back to the word we've all been saying it can work really well. So that's awesome. I love spending time with you both. As I told you the first time I met you, my child Frankie, she loves when I talk about her on the podcast. She is in Girl Scouts. She loves it. She's six and a half. Went to her first week of Girl Scout camp. Came home dirty and exhausted. Couldn't ask for anything more as a parent from a summer camp. So thank you exactly what summer camp? Sacagawea. And thank you both for just being so candid and sharing everything you shared. I think this is going to be really helpful to people. All right, listeners, hang in there continuing the amazing you're doing. Bonnie Naran, do you have any final thoughts?

[Naran Khan]

Just a huge thank you. We need to be having these conversations.

[Glenda Testone]

Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Thank you all. Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengary.com podcast. We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place, one small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.