← Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Nonprofits Are Messy: Lessons in Leadership | Fundraising | Board Development | Communications
Ep 248: Strategic Planning for Nonprofits: Simple, Agile, and Real with Sophia Shaw and Adam Wolford
00:51:37
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- [00:00]
A
This podcast is about nonprofit strategic planning. Now wait a second. Keep listening. I know what you're thinking. I've been there. Strategic planning? I don't have time for that. The world is on fire. Or wait, I really should do that. But it's so expensive. Who can afford to do that right now? Or kind of boring. We did it. It was a ton of work and it got us almost nowhere. I've heard all of these things before. Well, guess what? I'm really excited because today you're about to learn about a different kind of strategic planning that is not boring, expensive, or a huge time suck. Oh, and it actually works. Keep listening as I come back to Sophia Shaw and Adam Wolford. A Plan Perfect Foreign welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan, Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now, let's jump in.
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B
Foreign.
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A
My name is Glenda Testone and I am the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab and I'm your host today. I'm so excited to be here with Sophia and Adam and to talk about nonprofit strategic planning. I have to tell you, depending on the experience, I mostly thought I would never say that, but here I am saying it. And I'm saying it because I'm so excited about the way that Adam and Sophia are doing strategic planning. So to save the listeners, we will have your bio linked in the show notes. But if you can give the listeners just a brief idea about how the heck you got here running a business that uses AI to help nonprofits and the social sector do strategic planning.
- [02:34]
B
Thank you. And definitely it's not the normal trajectory, maybe for a woman in her mid-50s to start an AI company, but here we are. I've spent over 30 plus years in nonprofit leadership arena, so I've really seen it all. I've been a CEO, so I've reported to boards. I chaired a board, I'm a small nonprofit. I've led the Kellogg MBA Board program. I've guided organizations through every kind of uncertainty as a leader and also as a consultant. And Adam and I co founded Plan Perfect because we really have lived the challenges of strategic planning from the inside. And we just knew there had to be a better working lane and yes, fun way to do it, especially for organizations that are stretched thin.
- [03:27]
C
Yeah. And I came from the for profit tech building and strategy consulting world, so also not a typical route to the world of nonprofit technology. But through the class that Sophia taught, I was actually a student in her program at Kellogg, which obviously was a powerful class for me as what brings me here. But I was on the board of a small nonprofit, and I realized how little support there was for nonprofits to act like high performing business. And it's because they didn't have the right tools or process in place. And I think even working as a consultant, both on the for profit side and on the nonprofit strategic planning side, it sort of was seeing strategy as this moment in time. Right. It's something you do once every three years. And there was no structure, no way to turn it into an operating system or a way of working. So I really wanted to see how we could change that and avoid having, you know, plans on the shelf. And that's really what drove me to join Sophia in this journey and really build a platform that helps bring, you know, structure, speed, clarity to strategic planning and treats it more as a. A journey than a destination.
- [04:26]
A
Oh, I love that. So let's start with the myths, because clearly we've already talked about a lot of myth, so I want to be really direct and clear with the listeners. Does strategic planning need to be expensive? Does it take a lot of work? Does it cost a lot of money? And by the way, I want to acknowledge that all of these myths lead some people. I might have been one of those people before talking to you all to conclude that only big, wealthy organizations should do strategic planning. Should do. Excuse me, strategic plans. Are any of these true?
- [05:05]
C
No, we definitely take the party line that all of these are completely false, false, false. Like there is by no means that it needs to be this expensive long journey. And Glenda, I think that's born out of just the current options for nonprofits as they exist today. You either take the time, do it in house and try to follow this long journey, or you outsource it to a consultant who costs tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars and it takes 12 months. We really don't see that it needs to be this way at all. I think there's a much more agile way to do it. Our goal at plan perfect is really getting people from having a vision to actually having a strategic plan as quick as possible. Because the magic really Happens in actually executing it. So getting from this idea into the actual execution phase. And I think your last point about it only being for big orgs is actually the opposite of true. I think small orgs need it most since they're the ones operating with limited resources and time. If they're not focused in their approach, then they will either fall by the wayside or they won't be able to scale and grow. Whereas big organizations can sometimes feel defaults alive just given how large they are. So we really see it as an opportunity for smaller organizations to differentiate themselves and have a plan in place.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, everybody needs a plan. We need a plan in life. Even if it changes over time, we need to understand where we're going at any stage of our lives as well as in our organizations. I mean, we don't question this for for profits. Right. I mean, we don't question the fact that big companies need a strategic plan or a business plan of some kind. But somehow we think that in the nonprofit sector, organizations maybe can go on without them. Big organizations, big companies need a plan as well as small ones. So let's say, for example, your cousin comes to you and says, I want to like start a cookie company or something. And you're like, and Glenn would you want to invest? And he's like, well, what's your plan? You're like, but you wouldn't say that. Oh, if somebody came to you, I'm gonna start a non profit to help whatever cause you wouldn't ask them. Not that necessarily. Why is that? So we really know that everybody needs a plan, whether you're a for profit, a nonprofit, whether you're big or you're small. And also the smaller to mid sized nonprofits actually benefit the most from a strategic plan because they can't afford any wasted effort in what they're. So we totally disagree that there is this myth out there. I mean, we know there's a myth, but we disagree with it. And that there is a. A huge number of nonprofits in this country that can really benefit from having their voices get out there and better serve by having a plan in place.
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A
Yeah, I have to tell you, I'm one of those geeky people who loves planning it. I am also a person who has struggled with anxiety and I found that planning is such a good antidote to that. I want to hear more about Plan Perfect. How do you guys do this in this way that is not all of these myths?
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C
Yeah, I love the question. I think planned perfect really differentiates itself and it operates A lot more. Kind of like a model of having structured templates and customized support. We of course use AI in the back end, which is in house built using Sophia's kind of lengthy career and her knowledge, as well as some private and public data that we were able to collect. But you can think of it more like TurboTax but for strategic planning. So it kind of walks you through the process end to end. You collect input, make sure you're hearing the voices of all of your constituent groups. This is a huge gap sometimes in current processes where you just have board members sitting in a room, kind of on a chalkboard, coming up with the plan without listening to the beneficiaries or other stakeholder groups that are relevant. Once you have all that data, it helps you to create your goals. So actually generate your plan. And then ultimately where the magic happens is all about aligning those goals and tracking progress. So the idea is that it's all in one. It's more of an operating system versus just a moment in time. And really what's most important for us is that it remains intuitive and accessible for teams that don't have the in house expertise or don't have the budget for consultants. We have people ranging all the way from their young 30s to retired folks who are on boards and helping to drive the effort here. We really see the software as an equalizer of allowing people to really make sure that they're able to draft the plans. And as Sophia always likes to say, also have fun while doing it.
- [09:26]
B
I appreciate that you brought up that you're somebody who struggles with anxiety and that making a plan feels better. I feel the same way. I've always, in my whole life struggled with just making some kind of sense out of the world. And by having a plan, even if it's not one that ultimately is followed, brings me a great deal of assurance. Like at one point in my, in high school, and I know I'm getting a little off base here, I wanted to be an Admiral in the Navy. I just like totally, I was obsessed. And so I started taking all these classes and learning and of course, as we know from this podcast, I am not an admiral in the Navy, but I totally benefited from that journey and that structure during that time. I also think that in addition to giving some, some sort of, even if it's false, sense of control over the world, it's also really fun. People love to answer surveys. We like to learn about ourselves. We like to. We like to also sometimes put a suggestion out there and have other people respond to it. And that's a really successful way to, to lead sometimes. And so we've planned perfect. A lot of these human instincts, whether they be about, like, wanting to have some sort of touch point in the world, about answering surveys and learning about ourselves or putting our ideas out there and letting other people respond to them into a technology solution. And so that's what makes it powerful. And I will argue, fun because it gives you a sense of like, okay, I can do, I can do this. You know, sometimes I like running long distances and doing a lot of things long distance because I feel like there's a real relaxing journey to it. But also people feel that endurance is anxiety provoking. So like a strategic plan, it's going to take them a year. You know, that just is so awful.
- [11:21]
A
Sophia's choking herself, listeners, Just so you know.
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B
But if you can, if you can make it more quickly, if you can actually put your hands on it and make you feel good about it, it can be a lot, a lot of fun and also more fun for people around you.
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A
Yeah, I have to say I didn't think of this until we were having this conversation. I am a person that loves planning, and I've been in the nonprofit world in executive roles for about 25 years. So I have worked on a lot of strategic plans and I haven't really liked it, which is so odd because I love planning. So there must be, you're right, Something about the structure of it, the mindset of it, that it makes it different than the kind of planning that I do all of the time that I actually do think is fun and, and very satisfying. I love getting feedback from people. What do you think of this? Is it good? Is it bad? Could it be better? So I, I appreciate, what I appreciate about what you all are doing is kind of going back down to the studs and thinking, okay, what is really important about a plan and how can, how can we make that easier and more affordable and quicker?
- [12:40]
B
Yeah. And I think one of the things that, that we're trying to do is really put that executive director or board chair or CEO, depending on the title of the organization, into the, into their grip. So I think you and I really enjoy planning, but we may not in that, like, traditional setting of putting yellow sticky notes on board on walls and using whiteboards, because it doesn't, I don't know, it feels, it doesn't feel the right kind of collaborative or the right kind of creative. And so what we're trying to do is really have to build out on what we really love about it, which is putting our ideas down like your old fashioned, like putting it out on a big piece of paper with a pen. But now you can do that with technology. Really cool way that iterative and controlling in a positive way.
- [13:33]
A
Yeah, I believe, Adam, you mentioned a chalkboard earlier, so I think you're going even a, a step back from where
- [13:40]
B
I did the white pieces of paper
- [13:42]
A
with the sticky notes. I never, never a chalkboard.
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C
But yeah, I think there's also something like Sophia hit on this. But it's something really powerful about being able to also tell your plan or your story in your own voice. I think when we invite consultants or outsiders to come in and kind of write our plan or tell our story, there's a lack of ownership that certainly develops because you're kind of being told, hey, this is what you should go do. But I also think there's really a lot of power, especially for communities that typically don't have these voices. For them to tell this story and kind of chart their course in a way that makes, makes sense for, for them. And that's a part of this. That's been really powerful in a way that I don't think I was expecting going into the work. But I think it's been really, really cool to see it unfold and unfold so quickly. Like I'm thinking about one of our clients who kind of came up with their plan. They knew what they wanted to do. We were able to put it in the system like quite quickly. And I think also just seeing the power of it in their own words with their own voice can really be a powerful tool as well.
- [14:45]
A
Oh, I love that. I want to dive more into this. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come right back and talk more about strategic plan and what you all do.
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D
Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now, you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the nonprofit Leadership Lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills, and a warm, nurturing private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders call the lab home and we'd love for you to join us. Learn more@nonprofitleadershiplab.com podcast. Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with DRG. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process. With strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them drgtalent.com and tell them. Joan Gary sent you.
- [15:58]
A
Thank you, Adam and Sophia for still being with us. You got me thinking about something. I agree with you, Sophia. I do think that for any for profit company, startup business venture, you demand a plan, we expect a plan. It's just a given. So why do you think it is that in the nonprofit sector people are like, oh, you want to start a soup kitchen or an animal shelter or great, go for it, here's some money. Why do we not expect the same planning rigor in the nonprofit sector?
- [16:35]
B
You know, it beats me. I mean maybe then it started out like philanthropy in some ways started out more as a hobby or as a way of becoming more tax efficient. So it didn't have the same kind of rigor. Or maybe I'd like to take it back on ourselves. Maybe let's take the, we can take our own blame here. I mean one of the goals that Adam and I had in starting the company was to make the nonprofit sector more professionalized and in, in helping do so, we could then help the sector have more impact. And so I don't know. And why do banks, if a bank is going to loan again, your cousin's cookie company, somebody to, to for rent, they're going to ask well, what's your, what's your plan to repay it? But not. Donors are not asking those same kinds of questions around nonprofits in the. Some are obviously, but what we're seeing is really in this small to mid size area that hasn't been the case. And so we really. And maybe it's because they are asking a question or something of them that those organizations couldn't deliver. Now they can and now they can't. It's really exciting.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know Adam, if you had thoughts on that, you sparked some thoughts in me.
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C
Yeah, I think spending some so much time in the for profit sector prior to coming over and building technology in the mission driven space is that I think when you're in the for profit sector you can say, you know, $1 in equals $5 out. Based on this financial model. I think when you're thinking about impact, it's harder to say $1 in equals five patients being treated at our facility or what have you. However, I Don't think, to Sophia's point, it's really an excuse for not having a clear plan. And honestly, I've seen it really powerfully with a lot of our customers that having the plan creates a moment for them to go to donors, to fundraisers, to board members and ask for more money. Because they're saying this is what it's going towards. Right. Like this is headed, we've budgeted it, this is kind of where we're planning to go. And this is how many more coral we're going to save. This is how many more athletes we're going to empower. This is how many more facilities or house housing we're going to be able to stand up. And I think converting that dollar to impact metric can be really powerful when you're speaking to donors or people who are coming from the for profit sector.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah, I, I would, I would just say my, my entire background has been nonprofit up until this point when I'm the CEO of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab, which is a small business. And so it's interesting to see kind of the double standards. And I, I would just add to the mix that I think there can sometimes be an assumption on the part of other people that like the nonprofit stuff is just all heart and passion and, you know, giving and caretaking. And we can't expect those folks to have a plan. They don't know how to write it down and think. And so it's like this assumption that it's one or the other. And I have found so often in my experience in my career that it can be both and that the nonprofits that succeed, it really is both, you have to have the heart and the passion and the drive, but you also have to have the plan and the outcomes and the impact that you're trying to measure. So just, well, we're myth busting. I guess I'll throw another one in there which is non profit. Folks can plan really successfully. Mission driven. Folks can plan.
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B
Yeah. And to the fun part again, when you have a plan and you're delivering on it and your board is saying, way to go. Is this exactly what we've always wanted to see? And then everybody's together and everybody knows how then to go and volunteer and help the people or the ecosystems that need help, they're having more fun. If everyone is arguing with each other about why we're doing it, what we're doing, how are we going to break even? That is not fun. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely, totally.
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C
And I think it's an expectation thing. I mean, A wise professor once told me that a 501C3 is just a tax code. At the end of the day, nonprofits are businesses. Right. And I think they should operate as such and carry the same rigor that you would in the for profit sector. Obviously there's a lot of other pieces that come with it, but I think that's an important thing to remember here. And I think a lot of listeners and a lot of people in the nonprofit sector get that. And I think it's really finding the tools and the, the processes that allow them to plan and grow in the same way that a for profit would have the opportunity to.
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A
Yeah, so. So let's actually get into some data. You know, we're talking about people who plan or don't plan and there are people who statistics and people who don't. But you all shared some data with me and I want to share with the audience and I would love to hear your take on this. 86% of leaders believe having a strategic plan actually helps them raise more money. I believe that wholeheartedly. I've seen that myself. And then there's the other side, which is 50% of nonprofits do not actually have a strategic plan. How, how do you all interact with those two realities? Is that what you're finding?
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B
Yeah, I think it's just been really hard for the small to mid sized nonprofits, which make up the large percentage of all of our nonprofits in this country. It's been very hard for them to make one. And that's not anybody's fault. You know, it's just been too expensive. Or if you're coming to the nonprofit sector with skills in the for profit sector, let's say a doctor, and then you wanted to be in the nonprofit sector, working in a clinic, giving out medical services. You just don't have the experience in running the nonprofit. So what we hope to do is to provide that, that doctor who just as a proxy for fill in the blank to be able to build a plan. So I don't think it's anybody's fault necessarily. But in your lead into our chat here, you mentioned that when the world feels on fire, like how do you have time to do it? And I would argue that when the world feels on fire, that's exactly when you need to know where you're going next. It can bring a great deal of relaxation and enjoyment as well. But yeah, I think we're trying to solve that gap.
- [23:29]
C
Yeah. And I totally agree with Sophia. I think the 50% number is nonprofits. Holistically I would say for smaller to midsize, it's probably even more. And I think Sophia on the head, people ask us all the time, like who is your biggest competitor in the space? And our answer is almost always people just not making plans. It's people who are on the sidelines and not really participating in this, this exercise. And you can feel it in the, the organizations. It feels frenetic and really frantic, like they're trying to do something and they're all running and running and running, but it feels like in a circle. And so we really see this as an opportunity to point in the right direction. And to your point, it doesn't surprise me that, that these plans help you raise more money because you walk into a room with a clear vision of what you're raising money for. You can kind of talk the dollars into impact conversation. Even if it's three bullets at a high level. I think it really provides structure and understanding versus just kind of coming in with just your mission statement and hoping that the donor or the person who's funding you understands.
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B
Yeah. You can also prove to somebody who wants to fund your organization that you have heard the voices of those who serve and what we've created, it has a large, you start a large discovery tool. So whether that is surveys or downloading previous focus group transcripts, board meeting transcripts, that would be appropriate and really learning. What do people want? If you are working in after school programs, what do the students in those programs and what do the parents in those programs want from you? And if you can incorporate those ideas and not just the, the dreams of board members who maybe never have been in an after school program or have been the caretaker of a child in an after school program, you can make a powerful connection to be able to prove that what you're doing is going to have meaningful outcomes.
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A
Yeah, yeah. You had said something when we talked previously about this kind of strategic planning, giving leaders of small nonprofits a louder voice. Is this sort of what you mean? What do you mean by that?
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B
Yes, and we mean that and also that. So we have one client who was talking to us very powerfully about the role of consultants in her strategic planning journey. And I want to make it clear that Adam and I love working with consultants. We've been consultants. We're not trying to say anything negative about consultants. And in fact, there's a tremendous role for consultants, especially with in person facilitation, with working with people who maybe don't have the ability to fill out a survey or etcetera. So it's also great. But she was saying that. So she, she lives in a very rural area. It's an indigenous population of 70 people in her, in her community. And she said a lot of big consultants were coming in and then interpreting for her of her, of her community, which they were well meaning, et cetera. But she was able, through what she was doing with us, to put her own voice in. Yet we've seen that time and time and time again where the clients who come to us have really felt liberated by putting their voice front and center in their process and then using consultants where appropriate, maybe to help with financial modeling, et cetera.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
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B
Yep.
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A
I think you, Adam, you shared a story about a woman who created a plan on her phone, like in an evening or something. And I've never forgotten that. Can you tell that story?
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C
Yeah, I was just gonna say it's, it's also about finding the, the right tool for the, the right job. Like having this expansive consultant led experience for a small to mid sized organization. Another amazing story we heard. There was a small organization we were talking to in Chicago and they told us, I won't name the consulting firm that a consulting firm came in and did $800,000 worth of pro bono work for them to get a strategic plan. This was a $600,000 organization. So more than their annual budget was poured into this. And she's like, I was left with an 80 page PDF that is not powerful or empowering to a leader who then needs to take that and put it into action. So we again, opposite approach, which is the story you're telling. There's a beautiful organization based out of Kenya. It's an expat from the US she moved there and she offers fresh water for children in the local village. When I found her, came to her, she was like, kind of have the attitude of strategic planning. I don't have time for that. We're a $30,000 a year budget organization. And so, you know, finally I talked to her and I explained the value like we're doing. And during this conversation she signed up. And then the next day was her kickoff meeting. So I was expecting to show up and explain the system and tell her where to start. We get to the meeting, she's like, I had my plan. I built it last night on my cell phone, I was able to do it. I now want to do the interviews to confirm what I think like all these things. And to me I was like, wow, could imagine a world in which this technology allowed her as a passionate leader to take what was in her head, put it onto paper, and then think, okay, I can go hear these voices. She also was like, I want to share it with my team. I'm going to take it to my board. It's really unlocking this ability to be much more professional, like Sophia said. And then on top of it is like, now you're not just stuck with a PDF document of your strategic plan. It lives in the system where she can start to farm this out to her team and her board to go execute it. And then as they're discovering what's working and what's not, they can iterate in real time, which is really, when I think about strategy, that sort of operating system or iterative approach is something that has been adopted in the for profit sector. And I think we're giving the opportunity for it to be brought into the nonprofit sector as well.
- [29:23]
A
Yeah, I love that. So you're putting the, the authority in the hands of the leader, in the hands of the person who is, you know, there's, there's a saying that the, the person closest to the problem is actually closest to the solution. And this is just such an example of that. You know, she's sitting there seeing all of this, doing this work, able to put it in there. I think that is really powerful. And I, I have, I've had all these experience, you know, pro bono consultants, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then we get a big document that it's like this is barely in the language that we use, much less something that, that is really tactile and usable. And, and then the plan, the great plan that like, well, now we have the, we have the goals, now we need to make the plan. How do we actually do this? And then yeah, by year goes by, we haven't had the plan to actually execute the goal.
- [30:24]
B
And how do you make the dashboard? And then somebody says let me all try and like in a document or in Excel. And yes, you know, having worked with some of the greatest MBA students in the world, even who are extremely proficient with Excel, I've never seen a really, really good dashboard made there either. Or maybe even if it looked pretty good when the, when it was made, it's certainly not something that then this, the small to mid sized nonprofit, or even a large nonprofit can take over and use. Yes, it's too much. And I just want to clarify that what we're talking about like this, the, the, the leader making a plan, we have in our, in plan perfect, we have this module that allows them to create. And it has, and that's something we haven't really touched on too much is this little bits of AI that are incorporated. So this is essentially a chat that allows the user, the nonprofit leader, to interact in a conversational way. And it asks them questions and questions and questions to really help them discern and articulate what it is that they're doing and why. And that's, you know, when we talk about allows them to create, that's what we're talking about.
- [31:40]
A
That's helpful. That's exactly where I was going to go. I was thinking we're probably at a point where it would be helpful for people to hear a little bit more about how the system actually works. And then I did want to, because it is a system that uses AI, I wanted to talk about how it uses AI. And this is something that folks love to talk about right now, whether they're arguing it's great or it's, it's the end of times. So we'd love your, your take on that.
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B
Yeah. And people have argued that technology is either great or the end of time. Since the beginning of time, you know, whether that is the car replacing the horse drawn carriage or the, you know, the blender beating out the, you know, the hand beater power tool, you know, drill. Oh, the drills could be the end of the world. So where we're using these AI is just like you would if you were using a power drill to build your house or do a project. It's not doing the whole project for you. It's coming in and doing little bits and pieces where you need it to. And that is what we've seen as the power. And we don't want nonprofits to be left behind like they've been in technology in so many ways. And of course, technology, like everything else, can be used for good and it can be used for evil. And. But we can't. If we, if we get stuck on, you know, here, I don't know, that just ends in paralysis. And then they don't have a plan.
- [33:08]
C
Yeah. Specifically in our system, just to, to bring that to life for the listeners so they get an understanding. Our system is really broken down into like three buckets. The first is kind of the discovery piece. This is about listening to all of your constituent groups and stakeholders. The next is really this creation and reviewing the plan with, with your board and getting it approved. And the last is tracking and reporting. So in the discovery, where you're trying to get all these voices, our system uses AI in kind of two Key places. The first is that after a user sends out a survey, the survey participant can go through and fill it out and then right after we enter them into a chat experience. So what this is trying to do is it's trying to essentially take traditional survey data and add more context to it. If somebody conflicts themselves or is really negative or highly positive, the AI can ask follow up questions where this is nice. It allows you to get more context in a scalable way, which, as you mentioned, small to mid sized nonprofits are very limited on time and resources. So it's a really powerful way to hear kind of conversations in another way. The other place that again we've inserted AI is really in the analysis. So being able to pull out those key themes that you're hearing across the data. Of course a person could go in and spend time doing this, but we've had organizations do 300 plus surveys in our system that take a very long time. However, we're able to leverage the tool to really pick through some of that. And we have tested our AI ad nauseam. We've built so many plans, pumped in so much data and really made sure that it was a good steward of this strategic sort of planning process. But the goal of that is really getting the data and the insights out of the system so that you can move it into the Create piece. And again, RAI remembers everything that's happening in between all these phases, so it knows all the data in your interview or your discovery space. So then in Create, like Sophia said, you can chat with the system, come up with that draft plan, get it reviewed by your board and approved, and then we really move on to the tracking and dashboarding. So in the tracking space, it's all about figuring out the timeline and ultimately how you measure success against each of your goals and objectives, and then creating a seamless way to report out on that. So our goal is that the organization again is revisiting their strategy. Another point you brought up earlier, Glenda, which is imagine hiring a consultant and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and then you realize you have to change the plan. Like the mental space it takes to say, like, oh, I need to take this $200,000 thing and redo it feels really difficult and it's a really hard thing to then go tell your board, right? So I think these are all pieces that we've seen be very powerful that people can start to think about strategy in the way it was meant to, which is a, of course you have a plan and you're moving towards it, but every Day we're learning internally what's working, what's not. And then let's not even talk about the macro environment that we're all facing. Like if your plan cannot be flexible with what's happening around us as it relates to funding and legislation, et cetera, you're in a really tough position.
- [36:01]
A
Yeah. Two, two follow up questions. One, let's get concrete for people because I know having been someone that, that's done strategic planning all the way from like zero pro bono cost to, you know, $100,000 cost for a strategic plan where, what can you say about plan perfect's pricing and sort of where that falls.
- [36:24]
C
Yeah, happy to take that. So our system to kind of build your plan and have the system behind it is $4,800 for the year. And this is timestamped as of November 17, 2025. Who knows? But, but one thing that was always really important to us is that the system was accessible for organizations of all sizes. So we offer that is kind of the max price, but we discount it depending on the size of your organization. So we have different tiers.
- [36:49]
A
4800 is the max price.
- [36:52]
C
Yes. Yeah.
- [36:53]
A
This is the complete opposite of any strategic planning pricing I've ever heard, but please continue.
- [37:00]
C
No, yeah, so we just always wanted to make sure that this was again accessible for organizations of all size and they can really see it fitting into their year over year budget. I think this is another issue is that people say of course I have $30,000 to do a plan and they get the document and then it sits on a shelf and three years later they say oh, of course I have 30,000. So we really see it as a longer term partnership. Almost all of our clients have been with us through for, you know, since we started, so coming up on 12 months now. And so that's really how we've thought about it and from a concrete perspective, that's where we are.
- [37:32]
A
Wow, that's awesome. My second follow up question was just going to be about, about the. So I, I, last week I found myself doing a training at an organization that was working with seniors and I made an offhanded comment and I said, oh, you could look at a newspaper. Oh, who reads newspapers anymore? And they said, well actually a lot of our folks read newspapers still in their hands. And it made me think of you all, how have you faced yet or, or how do you deal with folks that are less tech savvy, that want to take that survey, that want to maybe even chat with AI and have some follow up questions? But are challenged in that way.
- [38:16]
B
We do a couple ways. The first is that we have the opportunity in the survey or the discovery area to upload transcripts. So in fact, Cat and I often go in and make fake plans for fake organizations just to see if it works. So I've recently had the wonderful opportunity to become close with my mother again. She needs more full time care. So I spent some time with her and I made up. The most recent organization I made up was called Tech Connect. And this was all about how to, how we could help people with limited ability to use technology for one reason or another to help them have a more stimulating and engaging and empowering independent life. So I interviewed my mom, who can't see that well as part of this experiment. And so we did it. We did it on my phone. I pushed, you know, like we're doing. We had a whole interview. She was great. She played right along. And then we uploaded that transcript to the, the interview, the, the survey component of our system. So it doesn't matter that she couldn't actually do it by on the computer because her voice was matters and her voice is now included. And so having that ability to upload or you could have, let's say you had a focus group where somebody and you could have. Our system works in any language. The prompts are still in English, but the responses can be, can be in any language and then the system will adapt. So let's say we wanted to find out a group of people you're serving who don't speak English. You could go and have, have that interview with somebody who could talk to them and you could upload that and that could be included. And that to me is a real breakthrough. I was the CEO of the Chicago Botanic Garden for 10 years and we had people speaking, we did some surveys. It was 36 languages over any given weekend. And in that point in time, we simply didn't have a method to capture what those people speaking all those languages and multiple generation families, like five generations of a family would come. What they're thinking now we do. That is where technology is groundbreaking and helping us serve the people we want to serve.
- [40:31]
A
That is so cool. I have to say. I ran an LGBT community center. We had 6,000 people visiting us a week and different languages, different abilities. And I have to say that was always regardless of the process we were doing, that was always the most fun part of strategic planning for me was getting to hear what people actually thought. You just can't put yourself truly outside and into those folks heads and Shoes. And really, when you get to hear from them like that directly, it's so powerful. It can also be so much work. The last time we did strategic planning at the organization I was at, we had a person on our executive team who was running it. And then that person needed support because there were all these interviews and focus groups and how to coordinate them and how to take the data and analyze it. And so we pulled someone from the development department to actually come and support this effort and help sort through all of that. And gosh, for us, for a small nonprofit to take even one person off of, you know, raising money to support the programs to do something like this was, was almost painful. So I, I do love the fact that that technology and AI can actually do that, that legwork for us, you know, the part that maybe can be a little boring, reading interview after interview after interview and finding the trends and, and things like that.
- [42:06]
B
So yeah, and that's where bias fits in. If I'm reading all these interviews, I have my, I, I know where I sort of want to end up, even if I don't admit it to myself.
- [42:15]
A
Yep.
- [42:16]
B
So having sort of a more objective way of analyzing and one that doesn't get tired, you know.
- [42:26]
A
Absolutely. This was a human, she needed to take breaks.
- [42:29]
B
Right.
- [42:29]
A
She had, you know, another job even. I mean, it was, it was challenging. So I, I, I appreciate the example so much. And it seems like a good balance of, you know, I think good strategic planning is a balance of the vision of the leader or the leadership team and then also the real data of, of the stakeholders and constituents and community. And, and that's where the bias, you know, can, can seep in. And it, it sounds like your system sort of balances for that because you have an objective third party that looks at everything and says, hey, this theme came up 25 times, you know, in, in your 50 interviews. So this is something you have to take a look at.
- [43:16]
C
Yeah. And there's even an extra, like, bonus that I see as part of this process, which is as part of the interviewing data collection. You learn so much about your organization and only a fraction of that can end up making it into the strategic plan. So we've been really thoughtful and one thing we're rolling out next is like, how can you leverage all of this powerful data to change, maybe make tweaks to your operations or make other changes that maybe aren't captured in the strategic plan because they weren't coming up enough, or they weren't high level enough, or they weren't big Enough initiatives. And so there's a ton of great work. And we hear this time and time again that, you know, part of the benefit of strategic planning. Yes. Is the plan you get at the end, but it's also the process. And how do you learn from that process and leverage that data is something we're thinking about all the time. So that you're not just doing it to kind of check the box as you're moving into creating a plan and really activating some of these findings.
- [44:06]
A
Absolutely. Well, thank you for this. I've learned a lot. I feel like I knew quite a bit already coming into it. Is there anything else you want to share with our listeners that you haven't been able to share?
- [44:20]
B
Yeah, I think the one thing I'd like to share is that if you don't have a plan now, it's not your fault. More of a fault of our, you know, assistant. Leading up to this moment, we've always, in, at least in American society, prioritize the voices of the large organizations of the loudest voices, the, you know, the. I'm just going to go for it, the white man. And that it's now this remarkably beautiful moment where all voices can be heard if we're listening. And, and that really, that is a very powerful way of making a difference.
- [45:00]
C
Yeah, I think just to, to build on that as well. I think if you've, you've had an experience where it's highly complex and I feel like you didn't get the output you wanted, that's, that's also not your fault. I think strategic planning, there's this concept that it has to be this drawn out, complex, big thing for it to be powerful. And I can tell you, organizations that range in tens of thousands in budget to hundreds of thousands, we've seen them do such powerful things just by getting it on paper. So you don't need these big tech or this big consultants to start to make these moves. And I think it's also a mindset shift away from it being a destination like, oh, we've arrived at our strategic plan and more of a journey of getting to that plan and then executing it and revisiting it and really making that part of the DNA of your organization in the same way that for profits think about these, these things as well. I think it's really kind of realizing there are now tools out there that can support a process that is the right tool for your organization and you don't have to retrofit yourself into a big, complex, sticky journey to ultimately get to the right sort of path for organization.
- [46:08]
A
But it occurs to me, you know, I also function as an executive coach and a consultant and do trainings and speeches. I don't do strategic planning as a consultant because as one per. I feel like it is challenging. The question that got raised for me though is even the way we contemplate strategic planning perhaps is a little old school. I've had a couple of clients and organizations recently say we're putting out an RFP for our strategic plan, which presumably consultants respond to. How do you all deal with that? Is that still the way most folks are doing it? And can you all respond to that or do you, how do you handle that? Because that is the way I often hear strategic planning coming up. Like, oh, we gotta make an RFP before we even get the proposals and then we review. It's like a, it becomes an arduous thing before you, you even start.
- [47:04]
B
That's, that's true. That's true. And right. And I, I would suggest that people just d. Dive in and if you have a draft. The thing about anything in life, you can make a draft of anything and then make it better later. You can. But if you can get everybody. Let's just take Thanksgiving. If you can pretty much figure out what everybody likes to eat coming into your party, like, do we, are we all vegans? Do we like turkey? Whatever. You can then amend that as. And get creative over time. But yeah, but if you don't, I mean, I don't know, it's, it's just such a different process if you don't just. Sometimes you just need to jump in and do it. Somebody has to make a decision. We're going to have, we're going to have the turkey and if you don't want to eat it, we're also bringing the vegan casserole and we're also having the marshmallow. But somebody at some point in time has to be a decision and then you can refine it going forward. And all that RFP stuff is important, but it sometimes gets in people's way.
- [48:09]
C
Yeah. And I think also we've seen like, I know we've talked a lot about small to mid sized nonprofits from like a firm graphic perspective. But what we've also found is that the psychographic of our clients is that they're the people that are what Sophia's describing. They're not the ones that want to go through this long process of putting out an RFP and getting someone to come into their organization for 12 months to interview all their board members. Right. It's more the people who are. I'm ready to move forward. I understand why I need this thing and I'm ready to take that on board. And I don't need to kind of deal with the red tape and all these other pieces in order to do that. And there's a size that fits for everybody. But I think if you're a leader who's interested in getting this down on paper, starting to move forward with the process in a more simple, clear way, there's a great tool out there for you.
- [48:56]
B
And then spend your money on the coaching. Honestly, I mean, I think where people need much, much, much more help is on the coaching side.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:06]
B
And how would actually implement the plan is like, well, because if Adam and I didn't get along well, how do you coach us to get along? How do I recognize where my blind spots are? How do I recognize how my upbringing is affecting my leadership? Like, yes, that is far more fascinating and far more empowering me to fulfill a plan than having to tell me that I should be doing something, you know, and I'm not saying how consultants are like that, but the coaching. Yeah. In coaching therapy, you know.
- [49:38]
A
Yeah.
- [49:39]
C
Get along. We do get along.
- [49:44]
A
Oh, I'm so glad. I was, I was going to ask you earlier, Adam, if that wise professor you were talking about was Sophia.
- [49:50]
C
It wasn't Sophia. Yes.
- [49:52]
A
Okay, I assumed. That's fantastic. No, this has been really great. Thank you. The nonprofit leadership Lab specifically caters too small to mid sized nonprofits because we do feel like the little guys get lost and they don't get the attention and they don't get the support they deserve. So I was just so excited to learn about you all and what you're doing at this scale that can really empower those leaders to create a powerful plan that they can dig right into and get results and keep going. So thank you for the time and for being on the show. And if listeners want more information about Adam Sophia plan perfect, check out the show notes.
- [50:38]
C
Thank you, thank you,
- [50:45]
A
Thank you for spending time with us us today. We hope this conversation provides valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit Joangarry.com.com podcast We think you'll find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large step at a time. Talk to you all next time.