Ep 254: Building Belonging When DEI Feels Like a Four-Letter Word with Dr Kiki Ramsey

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofits Are Messy

Episode 254: Building Belonging When DEI Feels Like a Four-Letter Word
Host: Joan Garry
Guest: Dr. Kiki Ramsey
Release Date: May 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this incisive episode, Joan Garry chats with Dr. Kiki Ramsey—positive psychologist and CEO of the Positive Psychology Coaching and Diversity Institute—about the increasingly contentious environment surrounding Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) work. Together, they dissect why DEI is being vilified in today’s political and organizational climate and explore actionable, resilience-based strategies for nonprofit leaders committed to fostering belonging, even when facing external (and internal) backlash. Dr. Kiki brings a science-backed, optimistic, and practical lens, offering clarity, myth-busting, and inspiration for those in the sector.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Shifting Landscape: DEI Under Attack

• Current Environment: Joan highlights how government and societal backlash are making it harder for nonprofits—who historically fill gaps left by government—to carry out DEI-centered missions ([00:00]-[03:13]).
  • "Our sector strives to create a more just, empathetic world... and today that work is harder than ever as a result of a government that seems to think DEI is actually a four-letter word." (Joan, [00:00])
• The “DEI Is Dying” Narrative: Joan references Dr. Ramsey’s article, “DEI Isn’t Dying, It’s Finally Growing Up,” as a catalyst for their conversation ([03:13]).

2. Positive Psychology as a Foundation for Leadership

• Definition & Contrast with Traditional Psychology:
  • “Traditional psychology says what's broken and how do I fix it? But positive psychology says what's strong and how do we build on that?” (Kiki, [04:34])
  • Emphasis on strengths, resilience, human flourishing, and psychological safety, not merely deficit correction ([04:16]-[05:59]).
• Application to Nonprofit Leadership:
  • Leaders often focus on failures, missing successes that can emerge from setbacks (“Failing forward” concept, [06:35]).

3. Where Did DEI Go Wrong? Organizational Missteps

• Optics vs. Infrastructure: Organizations focused on the appearance of action (“checkbox” DEI) rather than deep, systemic change ([12:01]-[15:56]).
  • “We led with optics. Right. Instead of infrastructure.” (Kiki, [12:08])
• Performative Moves: Post-George Floyd, organizations issued statements or hired DEI officers without authority or budget, often without board alignment or metrics for progress ([13:45]).
• Mispositioning DEI:
  • DEI often framed as a moral weapon, not a growth and retention strategy.
  • "We also positioned DEI as this moral weapon instead of a growth strategy... we pit people against people." (Kiki, [13:54])
• Awareness ≠ Change: One-off trainings without follow-up or performance metrics were mistaken for real change ([15:56]).

4. Why the “DEI” Acronym Hurts More Than It Helps

• “When people hear DEI, they hear political, they hear divisive, they hear ideological, they hear compliance-driven. That's what they hear.” (Kiki, [17:17])
• What DEI Actually Is:
  • "It means fairness. It means opportunity, it means trust, it means strong teams, it means belonging, and it means innovation." (Kiki, [17:42])

5. The Evolution: From DEI 1.0 (Reactive) to 2.0 (Strategic)

• DEI 1.0: Reactive, siloed, performative ([19:08]-[19:29]).
• DEI 2.0: Strategic, embedded leadership, everyone responsible for belonging and safety, equity in opportunities and access ([19:32]-[23:57]).
  • Example: An organization that made coaching and leadership development equitably available to all staff, not just C-suite ([21:06]).
    • “They made coaching equitable... they opened up coaching to their entire organization. Whoever wanted to have coaching sessions or strategy sessions, they opened that up.” (Kiki, [21:51])

6. Making the Case for DEI Amid Backlash

• People-First Argument:
  • “How do you not make a case that your people come first? Because people, your employees, drive your bottom line.” (Kiki, [24:52])
• Courage and Values:
  • Encourage leaders and boards to stand in courage and align actions with values, despite political risks and fear of donor reactions ([25:19]-[26:14]).
• Show, Don’t Tell:
  • Joan suggests piloting small changes (e.g., anonymizing resumes) to demonstrate tangible results to boards ([26:14]-[31:00]).

Memorable Moment

• “Miguel Espinal. We refer to him as... lucky 97, because until we met him, that's all we knew about him.” (Joan, [28:46])
  • This anecdote underscores the value of anonymous, skills-first hiring.

7. Essential Principles for Building Belonging

• At PCaddy, Kiki’s company:
  1. All people matter and belong ([31:09]).
  2. Relationships matter over everything ([31:09]-[31:56]).
  3. Communication changes lives ([31:56]).
  • “The way we talk to people, how we respect people, the conversations that we have, they can actually change lives.” (Kiki, [31:56])

8. Busting DEI Myths ([33:09])

• Myth: DEI is "just about Black people"; Fact: It's about human access and power for all.
• Myth: DEI means lowering standards; Fact: Diverse, high-performing teams actually raise outcomes ([34:21]).
• Myth: DEI is divisive; Fact: “Poorly facilitated conversations are divisive, not DEI itself.”
• Myth: DEI is optional; Fact: Lack of diversity creates groupthink and stifles innovation ([34:42]).

9. Leadership Requirements to Buck External DEI Pressure

• Acknowledge Mission/Identity Fatigue: Leaders often feel personally attacked in the backlash era. Kiki stresses the importance of acknowledging vulnerability and emotional toll.
  • “Baby, I cry all the time and in front of my team.” (Kiki, [38:29])
  • “Positive psychology reminds us that you cannot pour from an empty cup.” (Kiki, [39:09])
• Anchor in Values, Not Vocabulary:
  • Focus on who is being served, who is thriving, and align actions with core values, not trendy language ([40:59]-[41:46]).
• Board Engagement:
  • “Our boards are so important... if boards let us know that they are in the fight with us, that’s going to be what really matters.” (Kiki, [42:00])
• Transparency: The most successful orgs show transparent leadership without pretending to have all the answers ([43:07]).
• Prioritize In-Person Connection: At least one day a month for whole-team meetings can rebuild bonds weakened by remote work ([44:15]).

10. Building Board Muscles Without Woke Fatigue or Savior Complex

• Host Difficult Conversations: Use DEI-adjacent language (difficult conversations, feedback, trust) to stave off resistance and foster genuine diversity of thought ([45:07]).

  • “If you got groupthink, you don't need to have hard conversations because everybody's walking in lockstep. But when you have diversity, having hard conversations, being able to offer feedback...” (Joan, [45:49])

• Engage Boards with Frontline Lived Experience (Undercover Boss approach):

  • “Boards need to get just to hear from other people than their C-suite to really understand that, that there's a soul behind the people who really run their organizations.” (Kiki, [47:54])

• Avoid Savior Complex and Fragility:

  • “I also don't need you to be fragile. Because there's a such thing as white fragility. When you hear the truth, I need you not to be fragile, but really hear real feedback and take that under consideration because somebody is telling you.” (Kiki, [50:34])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Traditional psychology says what's broken and how do I fix it? But positive psychology says what's strong and how do we build on that?" — Kiki ([04:34])
• "We led with optics... instead of infrastructure." — Kiki ([12:08])
• "We also positioned DEI as this moral weapon instead of a growth strategy." — Kiki ([13:54])
• "When people hear DEI, they hear political, they hear divisive, they hear ideological, they hear compliance-driven... But what it really means... is fairness, opportunity, trust, strong teams, belonging, and innovation." — Kiki ([17:17]-[17:49])
• "DEI 1.0 was reactive... DEI 2.0 is strategic." — Kiki ([19:20]-[19:32])
• "All people matter and belong. Relationships matter over everything. Communication changes lives." — Kiki ([31:09]-[31:56])
• “Poorly facilitated conversations are divisive, not DEI itself.” — Kiki ([34:22])
• "Positive psychology reminds us that you cannot pour from an empty cup." — Kiki ([39:09])
• "Boards need to hear from other people than their C-suite to really understand that there's a soul behind the people who really run their organizations." — Kiki ([47:54])

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Timestamps by Segment

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 00:00–03:13 | Welcome, Podcast/Guest Introduction | | 03:13–06:59 | Positive Psychology and Leadership | | 07:20–16:19 | Missteps in DEI Approach | | 16:19–18:09 | Risks and Misinterpretations of the DEI Frame | | 19:08–23:57 | DEI 2.0: Strategic, Embedded, Equitable | | 23:57–31:09 | Making the Case for DEI Practical Approaches | | 31:09–34:42 | Organizational Principles and Myth Busting | | 37:52–45:07 | What Leadership Requires Now: Vulnerability, Values, Board Engagement, Transparency | | 45:07–51:06 | Boards, Difficult Conversations, Avoiding Saviors/Silence | | 51:06–54:34 | Final Takeaways, Guest Plugs, Closing Remarks |

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Final Thoughts & Resources

• DEI is evolving: The field must move away from performative gestures to embed equity and belonging as foundational leadership and operational strategies.
• Communication and Relationships: Building strong, empathetic cultures requires real conversation, trust building, feedback, and an ongoing willingness to learn (and to fail forward).
• Boards and Leaders: Must be engaged, vulnerable, value-driven, and transparent. Their buy-in and example set the organizational tone for belonging.
• Find Dr. Kiki Ramsey:
  • PCaddy Website
  • LinkedIn
  • DrKiki.com (for speaking/workplace happiness)

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“I think your article really ignited in me a notion that we have a lot of work to do. We need to think about this in a way that’s smart, strategic, compassionate.” — Joan Garry ([51:28])

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Transcript

[A]

To me, it feels like our current government is in a big state of chaos. And I could make a list. I bet many of you already have a list. But today I want to focus on how the government is in chaos and working to cleanse word Carefully chosen the World of DEI Initiatives as you know, the nonprofit sector grew from an understanding that government can't and should not do it all, that citizens must take an active role in solving the problems of our society, from grappling with food insecurity to providing legal counsel to those who can't afford it, to advocating for marginalized communities. And that's exactly what our sector does. And it does so with passion, determination, and increasingly limited resources. Our sector strives to create a more just, empathetic world and and today that work is harder than ever as a result of a government that seems to think DEI is actually a four letter word. Joy Koenig on my staff came across an article in Entrepreneur magazine penned by our guest today, and the title alone had me at hello. The title DEI Isn't Dying, It's Finally Growing Up. The subhead here's what Progressive Leaders are doing. I wanted to know this person. I wanted to talk to this person and I wanted her to talk to you. And so I did the first couple of things and I knew instantly that you needed to hear what this woman has to say. We'll talk about whether we shot ourselves in the foot with the acronym dei. We'll define something I learned about called Positive Psychology will acknowledge just how profoundly hard it is to advocate for marginalized communities in this moment when you and your staff of these organizations are likely of these communities. And most importantly, my guest will help us understand how we can do this work in the world we live in today. It sounds like a big agenda, but I've got somebody who's up to the task. Dr. Kiki Ramsey is our guest. She is positive, high energy, and solution driven. You're going to like her.

[B]

Welcome to Nonprofits Are Messy with Joan Gary and Experts. This podcast is your go to space for insights, advice and inspiration designed to help nonprofit leaders overcome challenges and drive impact. Whether you're navigating small beginnings or leading a larger organization, we're here to support you every step of the way. Together with Joan and a diverse group of expert guests, we tackle the big questions nonprofit leaders face and offer actionable advice to fuel your leadership journey. A special thank you to donorperfect for sponsoring this episode and supporting nonprofits that we love. Now let's jump in.

[A]

Doctor Kiki Ramsey is A positive psychologist and CEO of the Positive Psychology Coaching and Diversity Institute, where she helps organizations strengthen leadership and drive meaningful culture change through science backed coaching. But here's Kiki's for realsies on her website. From helping her mother with her addiction issues to becoming the first PhD in her family, Kiki has learned how to cultivate courageous resilience and happiness to achieve great things in her own life and career. She does her magic as this positive psychologist, a coach, a speaker and an author. Dr. Kiki Ramsey. I am so happy to be having this conversation with you and to have microphones in front of us so others can hear us.

[C]

I'm so excited to be here, Joan. I am blueprinted.

[A]

Excellent. So let's get to it. Let's get your creds out on the virtual table. Briefly, what is a positive psychology coach?

[C]

Yes, I love this question and I get it often because most people don't understand what positive psychology is. When I say I'm a positive psychologist, most people say, oh, you just so positive. And so I want to. I am positive.

[A]

Yes, yes, I would say that that's

[C]

true, you know, but there, there is science behind it. So traditional psychology, we're going to go Back to Psychology 101 class is rooted in deficits. Right. Traditional psychology says what's broken and how do I fix it? But positive psychology says what's strong and how do we build on that? Right. We don't say in positive psychology that we don't fix problems, but we say let's focus on strengths just as much as you focuses on weaknesses. And so my focus is strengths based leadership, human flourishing, resilience under pressure, psychological safety, and cultural design. So those are the things that I do as a positive psychologist.

[A]

Okay. And yes, I'm pretty sure that psychologists have focused on my deficits over the years. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Normally when you think about psychology, you think about like depression, anxiety, all of the, the ailments and the illnesses and stuff like that. And that's the baseline. That's what psychology is. But the opposite of that is positive psychology, where we focus on everything that's going right with you, your strengths, how do you flourish, what if things do go right? And I think we need to ask more of those questions in the world because if we did, I think, number one, the world will be a better place and a much happier.

[A]

I think that's a very interesting point that very often, especially type A personalities. Right. And a nonprofit leader who's listening. I know you fall into this category. You're hard on Yourself. Right. You focus on what didn't go well, the gift you didn't get. And it can be difficult, the. For those of us who like to get A's on our book reports to look for the success that often actually rests in some kind of a failure, actually. Right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. You have to fail before you succeed. Right. Like any, you know, story where there's, you know, success, that person went through some kind of failure, some kind of challenge before they actually succeed, which is the thing that makes the success so good.

[A]

Yeah. There's a phrase that maybe it's overused now, but the idea of failing forward really resonates for me because it actually ties together the lesson you learn from what the deficit or what didn't go. Right. And propels you forward. So, Kiki, tell us a little bit about how you work for right now in what we'll call the DEI space. What's the work you do and for whom?

[C]

Yeah, it's. Well, right now it's real interesting.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But historically I work in, you know, in organizations, namely, and mainly nonprofit organizations right now, because nonprofit organizations have and always will be. And we'll continue to talk about this even today, mission based. You know, we talked about earlier how nonprofits, you know, were essentially, you know, designed to couple with, you know, governments because governments can't do all the work. Right. Especially when it comes to marginalized populations. And so I don't sell DE and I programs, but I build culturally intelligent organizations, and I do that under the auspice of leadership development. And so I work with boards, I work with executives, I work with leadership teams. And what we do is in that work, as we align values with behavior, we have a misalignment right now, especially in this country, around what we say we value and then what we do in spite of those values. Right. And so I work to help organizations align their values with the behaviors we develop emotionally intelligent leaders because I do think that if you're emotionally intelligent and you can really get to the heart of your people and understand them, I build culturally competent and organizations that have cultures where belonging is centered, which means you can show up at work and you can feel like you belong here regardless of how you look. And then I help organizations create retention based on trust. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of mistrust going on right now in organizations. And so all these things are coupled under leadership development. But it has a lens of what we'll talk about today in terms of DE and I, because it has to.

[A]

It has to.

[C]

It has to.

[A]

It just simply has to. So that's really helpful for people to know. And I am a huge fan of my nonprofit firm, consulting firm, has gone through a DEI journey, and we have a coach that works with us, and we've done a lot of work, and we talk about not being on a journey to be a culturally intelligent organization. And I really, I think it's a phrase that we should be using more often. So let's dig in here. So you say DE and I is not dying, but, boy, there certainly seems to be a lot of, not just anecdotal, but sort of data points around the argument that it is old news, that it's woke, and that it is dying. This anti DEI political climate has been bubbling up for a while. This is not just brand new. With the executive orders that President Trump has signed banning what he calls illegal dei, we now have people running scared from it, scared from even being adjacent to this word diversity. DEI specialists like yourself who were once in high demand, not so much. Although that'll be interesting to talk about, too. And then you have companies that are honestly, they're just abandoning their DEI policies out of anxiety, money anxiety, whatever it may be. And then I think we have a situation where the retreat, this retreat is kind of decimating the job market for this work. There was an analysis conducted by NPR that since 2023, U.S. employers have eliminated more than 2,600 jobs with the words including diversity or DEI in the title. I say that out loud and it is really unsettling. And then I see your article and I say, you argue that DEI is dying. It's growing up. Right. That there's an implication that those of us who have DEI visions and build this idea of cultural intelligence, that we got it wrong somehow, that it's more than a societal attack on what our president calls illegal dei. So I'm really intrigued. Many folks believe it's the attack on DEI that's the root cause. But as we think about this, did we do something wrong that set us up for these attacks?

[C]

Yeah. This is such a great question and conversation because I do think that we all had a hand in where DE and I stands right now. There were, you know, it's not just this political backlash that we're dealing with, but we have to own our own missteps when it comes to DE and I. And what I mean by that is a lot of times when with DE&I and what you would see in organizations, we led with optics. Right. Instead of infrastructure. It was all about how it looked like what. What trainings you're going to put out there, what statements you were going to put out there. I can remember when George Floyd was murdered, everybody had to have a statement, whether they believed what they were stating or not. Everybody called their PR specialists and they were like, what are we going to do? Because DEI is hot right now. So it was all about the optics on how it looks, the statements. It was about checking the boxes. How many black people do you have? How many Asian? How many women do you have? Right. It was hiring. You know, people were hiring DEI directors. That was. It was. It was hot. Everybody had a chief diversity officer in their organizations, but they hired them without any authority or any budget.

[A]

I saw it with clients, I saw it with institutions of higher ed, particularly that I work with that giving the job of making an institution of higher ed diverse, equitable and inclusive. It's like, it's not okay. That's your job, buddy. Right. I mean, who are we kidding here?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No line authority, no staff, no budget. But check a box. I got a DEI officer.

[C]

That part. And even with, you know, check the boxes, there was no board alignment. Right. There were statements that were given there, but there was no strategy on how you were going to accomplish what you stated in the statement. You know, when hiring the DNI directors. Like you said, there was no budget. So we did all these things based on optics, based on how it looked. And so therefore it looked crazy to most people. Even if you believe in DE and I, this is not the way that we should have gone about it. We also position DEI as this moral weapon instead of a growth strategy. Now, listen, I think. I definitely think that we have lost our moral compass. It is out the window. But when we talk about morals, sometimes that's a tough angle to talk about. When it comes to organizations and how they're set up, DEI is more a growth strategy versus a moral angle. Meaning we have the messaging that we put out about it. How leaders, you know, some leaders felt ashamed. Right. Instead of being invited to the table, organizations responded defensively. Right. So we pit people against people when we. When we position it as a moral weapon. And that a lot of it is. That's still happening right now, but I understand why it's happening as well. We confused awareness as with change. Right. So these are the missteps I think we took. Right. We confused being aware with, you know, the ability to change. So we had these one off trainings. That's not change. Well, you. How you going to change when you go to a training, you forget like 90% of what you learned within the first, you know, 30 days. How is that going to be changed? It's not change. Right. We had these biased workshops with no follow up.

[A]

Right.

[C]

How are you gonna talk about bias and unconscious bias and all of this? But there's no follow up. Right. And there was no metrics tied to any of this performance. And so I can go on and on, but we had some missteps here when it comes to how we have really ultimately shared De and I with, with our, with our companies and with the world.

[A]

And you would say that it left us open to, I'm going to use the word attack, but open to an argument that this was not the real deal, that this was some moral high ground that progressive folks wanted to stand on as opposed to. You're absolutely right. Is a retention strategy, an understanding of the world we live in, an understanding that diversity is measured by all kinds of metrics. Right. I mean, I have done a couple of podcasts about dealing with the Gen Z employees and when you think about it, and you'll have leaders in their 50s who find Gen Z employees kind of pesky. And my argument is, yo ho, that's diversity in your organization. Use it.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Use it, dude. Right?

[C]

Use it. Music.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Other thing I think we, we also did is we used the acronym instead of the outcome. So like the acronym, when people hear D and I, they hear political, they hear divisive, they hear ideological, they hear compliance driven. That's what they hear. But what it really means. What it really, really means, John, is fairness.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It means opportunity, it means trust, it means strong teams, it means belonging, and it means innovation.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But that's not what people are hearing.

[A]

Right? I liked that list. I liked a lot. And what organization wouldn't want to promote that in their organization? Right? Framed that way like you have, you should have people at hello. And we did not get people at all. Hello.

[C]

No.

[A]

So we're going to take just a short break and when we come back, what we're going to do is diagnose the shift that Kiki sees amidst this anti DEI world. So stay with us and we'll be right back. Are you a staff or board member of a small to mid sized nonprofit? Now, you might feel alone, but trust me, you are not. I built the nonprofit leadership lab for the millions who are just like you. You'll find time saving resources when your pants are on fire, opportunities to uplevel your skills and a warm, nurturing, private community of what we call superheroes. Thousands of board and staff leaders. Call the lab home. And we'd love for you to join us. Learn [e-mail] podcast. So my guest today, Dr. Kiki Ramsey, wrote an article arguing that Dei is not dying, it's growing up. Talk about the shift. What do you see happening inside organizations?

[C]

Yeah. And so I am on the front lines every single day, and what I see is DEI 1.0 was reactive.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was actually going to say that when you said, quick, let's hire a DEI officer. There's no strategy around that.

[C]

Not. But DEI 2.0 is strategic.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

It's strategic. And so what I'm seeing is like with the. With 1.0, we have these siloed departments. Right. But with 2.0, we have embedded leadership, responsibility, meaning everybody feels responsible for DEI within the organization and not. It's not just one person's job to make people in the organization feel psychologically safe, to make people feel like they. They matter and they feel heard. And so that's what's new. Coming up. Also, 2.0 is not performative. Right. You know, these companies now are embedding DNI in the way that they lead, the policies that they approve. Who gets access to the real table, the real rooms, who are making decisions, who get mentors, who gets spiritual sponsors. That's what's happening now because people are. Leaders are now waking up and noticing how they lead. Who. Who was the last person who had access to you, who had access to resources to further their career? Like, these are the things that are happening in organizations right now because so many people have to pull back on what DEI is because the. This, you know, this political climate is saying they're, you know, they rid this country of the. So we have to do it differently. Right.

[A]

Can you give me an example? Like, yeah, throw an example our way so we can bring this to life.

[C]

Yes, for sure. So, you know, working in organizations. So one organization that my company works in right now instead of just giving the senior leaders. Because most of the time, people think that coaching and training and really leadership development is reserved for senior leadership staff.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And if you look for. If you look at most senior leadership teams, the first thing I do is when a company calls us or we're recruiting, you know, a company is, I go to their C suite and I look at what their C suite looks like. Most C suites don't look like me. And, and I. So I know that I'm probably fighting some kind of uphill Battle.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But if the C suite is the person who's bringing us in, I know that we have a shot. Yes, to create change. Right. Because the change starts from the top. You cannot go into an organization and train all these other amazing leaders when the leadership and the board does not buy in. So this particular organization, all of their leadership bought in. So we were in that organization or in that organization right now, training their C suite, having coaching conversations on a regular basis. And then what they did was they made coaching equitable. And what that means is they opened up coaching to their entire organization. Whoever wanted to have coaching sessions or strategy sessions, they opened that up. And to me, that's what truly matters. Because it's not just reserved for those people in a C suite, which are normally white men. It is reserved for everybody. And then they turned around and they listened to the feedback that the rest of their leaders in their organization was giving them and implemented that into different policies that they were looking at in terms of hiring policies, in terms of implementing programs. They implemented leadership programs that not just the leaders, people leaders could do it. Just regular staff could access this. Because most of the time organizations don't give this to lower level staff. And so that's what I mean when I say that these companies are putting their money where their mouth is at. So yeah, they might not call it dni, but it is exactly what it is. They're giving access to the tools necessary and they're giving access to the space so that different voices can be heard. Because most of the time the people who are in a C suite are not the people that at the end of the day are doing all of the work.

[A]

So in this climate, how does, let's say I'm an executive director or I run a company and we're living in this world, this anti DEI world. How do I make the case? I mean, I'm kind of hearing like, do it on the down low, but I know that's not what you mean. Like, how do I make the case? When you have other things you need to spend money on, or you have a board that's risk averse and is afraid that largely white rich donors are gonna think you're too woke if you keep that vision DEI vision statement on your website. What's the secret weapon to be able to say CEOs are in charge and yet they're not. Right. They have to get buy in too. How do they get buy in for this work in this climate?

[C]

Yeah, it's not easy. However, the one thing that we have to hold true is that people are the most important thing. Right. And so when we talk about making a case, how do you not make a case that your people come first? Because people, your employees, drive your bottom line? I'm sorry, but most organizations, even in nonprofits, like, we still have work to do.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So if your people. Right. Like, we might not talk in terms of nonprofits, we might not talk about bottom line, but we still have a bottom line because we have work to do. And so if your people don't feel like they belong in the organization, and if your people don't feel like they can carry out the mission, then what's the alternative?

[A]

Right.

[C]

There is none. So the case to me is already made. I think that we have to be in a space where we're number one courageous to really stand up for the values that. That we fight for every day in terms of our mission. A lot of times, the people who we serve, we also are very much like those people in a lot of ways. Right. So how do you not stand up for the people who are doing the work? Right. And I do think it starts with the board.

[A]

Yeah. I think, you know, there's this a sense I have that I totally agree with you around trainings, and I see it as a journey that you commit to and a leadership journey, really. And there's two stories come to mind, and one is with or without a consultant of any sort, a good leader provides a platform for people to tell their stories about who they are, where they came from, what shaped them. Right. I may be a white presenting female. Right. I am a member of the LGBT community. I have been married for 44 years. Well, legally only since I was able to be legally married, but, like, didn't talk, you know, was never welcome in my wife's home. Like, there are stories that you can tell, and we have used retreats to bring those stories to life so that we can actually walk in the shoes of someone else and say, oh, my God, I never knew that you lived on your own since you were 17 and you spent some time living out of your car. Right. Like, I develop compassion, I develop empathy. And the perspective that's brought to the table by somebody who doesn't have privilege, that I might have enriches the conclusions you reach. And so I think that actually this idea of really getting to know the people that you work with, their stories, whether they are people of color or not. Right. Like, it's not just diversity is not just about race. And so I think that's one thing that I've learned is that being really curious about what makes somebody tick enables me to pull from them things that will enrich decision making in my organization. And taking the time to do that feels like an investment. The other thing I was gonna say, Kiki, and I would love for you to respond to both of these things, is trying things and illustrating proof of concept can be very helpful, I think. So we decided we were gonna scrub resumes when we hired staff, right? We were gonna scrub resumes. And it was not an easy thing to necessarily get everyone on the same page about, because someone might say, well, I really care whether somebody went to the University of Pennsylvania. And then you'd have a conversation, why? Why do you care? Because they had access, because they had the money, because they got a rowing scholarship, right? Like, and so we send our resumes out, they're scrubbed. We refer to Miguel Espinal. We refer to him as, I probably get the number wrong, but lucky 97, because until we met him, that's all we knew about him, right? So there are things you can do. You have to be a little bit courageous. But what you then found was you hire Miguel and you get a different perspective, right? And the more that you do that, the more people see that the table is diverse in a whole variety of different ways. So I don't think you have to actually, you know, come to a board meeting and say, I know there's DEI backlash, but we have to stay the course. How about doing a couple of things and then, you know, giving that. Those examples of success to your board and letting them see how it really actually does change and improve the work that you do.

[C]

I love that. And I love that Miguel is Lucky 97. I love that. And I think things like, you know, scrubbing resumes and, and, and really, you know, backing out of, like, looking at the specific schools and stuff like that, like, and you need schooling. Yeah, for sure. But how important are all these things? And you. That makes me think about, like, merit, right? So there's this big conversation I always hear, you know, this administration talking about merit, merit, merit. And yes, DNI is not hiring people who have differences in spite of merit. That is a constructed argument that we're having to continue the debacle of D and I. And so with Miguel, he still had merit. You still looked at his resume. You just might have not looked at his name and his age and just all these things to make sure that he was qualified for the job.

[A]

We actually started, we actually started with a skills matrix to make sure that all the candidates we interviewed could actually do the job.

[C]

Exactly. And so this argument of merit being coupled with De and I is diabolical to me because, you know, and so that's what that made me think of. But pcadding my company, we were founded on three core principles. All people matter and belong. All people. Right. And I don't think that all organizations lead that way. Relationships matter over everything. So when you talked about relationships, let me just say this. If you and I had a disagreement and I came to you and I'm like, Joan, you know, you said something that really bothered me the other day, and I would really love to have a conversation about it. If we have a relationship, guess how that conversation is going to go? Way better.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

If we did not oppose to us not having a relationship. And then the last thing that we were founded on is that communication changes lives. The way we talk to people, how we respect people, the conversations that we have, they can actually change lives. And I would think about that when I think about George Floyd and how he was communicating, that he couldn't breathe and, you know, the police officer wasn't listening. So I do think that lived experiences and relationships and how you talk to people, just having these simple conversation with the people on your team can make all the difference in the world. So, yeah, you don't have to go into a board and say, this is what's happening and you need to stay the course and we, we need to fight this thing. Which some of that's true. But the other part of that is, how well do you know your organization? How well do you know the people who work for the mission that you say you fight for every single day?

[A]

Indeed. Take a couple minutes for me and your. The articles that you wrote, which we'll of course link in the show notes. You did some myth busting. Give me a quick couple of myths and bust them for me before we take another break and come back.

[C]

Yeah. So the first myth is that DEI is all about, you know, black people, all about race. Right. Not even just other races. It's about black people specifically. And the reality is it's not about black people at all. Like, I mean, we are included in that. But Ray, you know, it's all about human access, human power. Right. And so that's a myth. Di, we just talked about a little. Another myth is that di di means lowering standards. The reality is that high, high performing teams, high performing cultures outperform. They just outperform non, you know, other cultures in organizations. Right. Another one of the myths Is that di. DI is divisive. Right. Like it's like, oh, you know, when we have dei, it's like them and us. And it's not divisive. Right. I think that poorly facilitated conversations are divisive.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Those are the things that are divisive, not DEI itself. And then I think that one of the last myths I will say is that DEI is optional. Right. Is optional. But when, when you don't have a diverse workforce, then you are at a competitive disadvantage.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And most people don't realize that when you. What is it to have group think where everybody thinks? I mean, it stifles innovation.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Right. It stifles creativity. And so I don't think it's optional. It is a must that we have DEI in our organizations and in our country.

[A]

Yeah. And I think the more I think about this conversation, I feel like what I'm taking away from it is those of us who believe. And it's not just a moral thing, it is actually a factual evidence based argument that diverse organizations outperform. Right. When your board has people with lived experience, the cause that you're working for, they're more engaged. All of these things, they're true. I believe that. And I think, I think about this as true in a lot of ways that progressive leaders do a poor job of communicating what it's really all about. And I think that's why your third pillar makes a lot of sense. We're going to take one more quick break and we're going to talk about the power of leadership and what you think leaders will need to do to meet this moment. So stay with us. Today's episode is sponsored by DRG Talent. I go way back with drg. This team is passionate about strengthening the nonprofit sector. Their work goes well beyond a holistic executive search process with strat plans, comp analyses, culture surveys, leadership 360s and the list goes on. I refer clients to DRG regularly and I'm excited to be able to say this with a microphone in front of me. These folks are good and they care. Reach out to them. Drgtalent.com and tell them Joan Gary sent you. So we're talking with Dr. Kiki Ramsey and she is pretty awesome and we found her. This is why it's important to read my friends, right? Pick up a good old fashioned magazine or social media and grab and learn from people. It really makes a difference. And that's what we did. And we're talking about progressive leadership, dei. And what I want to do is build on some of the things we've been talking about is what does it really demand of a leader to buck these external forces, the forces that lead organizations to remove their DEI statements, the ones that fall prey to the extortion of withholding funding if DEI efforts continue. This is real, and it's hard. Right. So what advice do you have for me as an executive director of. Let's say I run a direct service organization supporting women in need. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I provide temporary housing, transitional housing, perhaps workforce development, some of those kinds of things. The vast majority of people that we serve are diverse in some way. How do I. What does it require of me to buck these external forces to potentially lose funding? Like, what does it demand of me?

[C]

Yeah. So the psychologist and me, I want to first say that so many of these leaders are carrying mission fatigue.

[A]

Yes, right.

[C]

And identity fatigue. And it is not lost on me as a psychologist and as a person. Those are the things that we need to acknowledge. Right. Because you can't continue to do this work and run, run, run, and that. Not acknowledge that when your policies are being attacked, it feels personal. It feels like a personal attack on you. And so I want. First thing for us to do as leaders is to acknowledge the emotional toll that it's having. I think a lot of times that we're running around as if this is not having that emotional toll, that we as leaders have to be perfect in this and that we have to have the answers in order to, you know, go out there and lead our teams or we can't show that we're vulnerable. But, baby, I cry all the time and in front of my team, like, if it is something that is, you know, that is distraught, like, know, listening to, you know, something on the. The news or social media, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be real and I'm going to, you know, share how I feel, because I think vulnerability as a leader is so very important. And I also think that that builds resilience into our leaders when we show them how to lead from a vulnerable place. Positive psychology reminds us that you cannot pour from an empty cup. Right. And you have to have your cup full before you can really continue to pour out. So that's number one. I want us to. To. To realize that. The second thing, as a leader, I think that we also have to anchor in our values, not just vocabulary. Right. Like, I think that we have values misalignment. Right now, we're saying one thing and then we're doing another. And I know that can be hard in this moment. When everybody's telling you, you know, dni, you can't do anything, dni, but remove the acronym. Right. It's not about vocabulary. It's about really what your values are. So some of the questions you can ask when we're trying to anchor in values is who do we exist to serve? Like every day, you exist to serve a population that needs you, that needs you to stand up for them and to be brave. Who are we delivering equitability to?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. How are we being, you know, equitable in our support, in our, you know, in our accountability towards the people who we serve? Right. How are we doing that? And then who is thriving in our organizations and in our communities? Right. And who is not thriving? Right. When we anchor and our values, we are asking ourselves the hard questions because there is going to come a time when the ties change, Joan.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And I want us to be on the right side when those. When. When those ties change. And I don't think that organizations are really thinking about the fact that at some point this is going to look different.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But we remember, we always remember we have receipts, and we can pull up receipts to show that. No, no, no, no, no. You said this when the going got hard.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I think we have to own it at the top. Our boards are so important. Right. Our boards and our organizations are so important. And so I think that when the board owns number one, that it's hard. Right. I get it. We get that it's hard. But I also think that if boards let us know that they are in the fight with us, whether they know the right answers or not, that's going to be what really matters, because I don't think that any of us have all the right answers. I mean, it is coming at us so fast that we can. I know for myself, the changes and everything that is coming, they're coming so fast, it's hard to keep up.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

People are. We're constantly feeling like it's, it's. It's fight ORF flight mode. We're constantly running from one thing to the next, things changing from one month to the next. And so I think that when it comes to our boards. Right. They have to be engaged in this. And I think there's a level of transparency that needs to be there. The. The companies that I see who are doing the best during this time right now have transparent leadership.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they have transparent boards. And their boards are not saying or their leaders are not saying. We have all the answers. We've solved the problems. We are Going to be a. Okay. That's not what they're saying. What they're saying is that we are in this with you. It is fearful. We are trying our very best to make sure that you are okay and that we can carry out the mission that we are working to carry out on a day to day basis. So transparency is so key. And then one of the last things I'll say is our ability to still come together. And I'm gonna say this because a lot of people might get mad, but still come together in person is gonna be one of the keys to our survival during this time. I have know, consulted with a lot of organizations and one of the things that I tell them, you know, or tell them to do is have at least one day a month where your whole team comes together. If their team is, you know, all in one space.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

Because what that's going to do is it's going to create a culture where people feel connected, where people can touch and feel each other, where people can build true relationships. Once the pandemic happened, we went to this, you know, virtual world that really did do a lot of damage to the connectivity of our organizations. Now granted, my, my company is. Is virtual. But I make sure that at least for us, once a year we're doing a retreat with each other, we're coming together, and I also make sure that some of our leaders still can meet up in different places and still come together at different times of the year. Because I think that connection is very important. I think that it's to build the kind of connection we used to have when we were in office. Virtually. If there's no touch points where we

[A]

come together in person, there's a. I agree wholeheartedly with that. When I was a kid, long ago, I was not very good at swallowing aspirin. And so maybe some of you, maybe this is still a strategy, but my mom would take grape check jelly and smash the aspirin in a spoonful of grape jelly. Right. And so I'd have a grape jelly and it would be a little chalky, but I'd get my Tylenol down and the fever would go down and all would be well. I think there's a great jelly strategy here with your board. Not that I. Again, please. The sickness metaphor is not relevant here. It was my mother's technique that's relevant. What if you take a portion of your board meeting and you say if we're actually going to fulfill our mission and also be able to fend off the challenges that we Face that make our heads spin around like Linda Blair from the Exorcist, we better learn how to have difficult conversations with each other. And so I've brought in somebody who is a member of our community who does this, and we're actually going to develop the muscle of having difficult conversations. Did I say the words D, E and I. Did I say anything about diversity? No. But in order to actually, if you got group think, you don't need to have hard conversations because everybody's walking in lockstep. But when you have diversity, having hard conversations, being able to offer feedback and to be able to say thank you for that feedback, I think that there's strategies and I'll let you close it out with boards and how to reengage boards and organizations in this work as we grow up. Is that. I don't know, maybe the grape jelly strategy is what are the skills, the hard and soft skills that a board of staff need to be able to weather the storms and to be able to build these organizations where everybody comes to work feeling like they can be their authentic selves, where they really, truly feel like they belong. So I'm going to give you the last word on this.

[C]

Yeah, I love that. And I think that, you know, as you talked about the grape jelly, I think one of the strategies for Boars is, is for them to hear from the people on the front line. I used to love this show called Undercover Boss.

[A]

Oh, yes. We were just talking about. I was just talking about that the other day. There was an. There's a whole episode on a guy who ran a porta potty business. And I was like, I was obsessed with it. Anyway, go ahead.

[C]

I love that show because it really showed that some of these leaders were so out of touch about what was going on in their organizations until that and until they went undercover, they kind of saw it and they were able to reward people who were doing just amazing work. And I think that boards need to kind of act like Undercover Boss. And maybe they can't go undercover per se in the organization, but they. They do have the ability to bring the organization, to bring employees who do the frontline work to these board meetings and hear lived experiences about truly what's happening. Because what happens in board meetings is mainly the C suite are sitting there telling them what's going on. And it's from a lens that may not be equitable as it pertains to the rest of the organization. So I think boards need to get just to hear from other people than their C suite to really Understand that, that there's a soul behind the people who really run their organizations and if they can get in there and really experience it from a first person level, then they can make decisions about what they do and how they lead and govern those organizations from a much more informed and authentic place.

[A]

So I love that. And I'm going to add something. I said you were going to have the last word and you still will. We have to be able to do that without igniting the white savior complex. Right.

[C]

Say it again.

[A]

Right. So you bring in clients from my women shelter. Right. And I've got a largely whiteboard. Right. Have I done what I needed to do or have I just made everybody feel really good that they're. Forgive me, but that they're, you know, I think we have to, we have to be really strategic, really smart messaging, dose of grape jelly. Right. All of these things to give boards and staffs the muscles that they need and exercise them so that they start to really understand that they understand what, what this is really about. Any final thought?

[C]

Yeah. And it's. And it's not just about bringing someone in and hearing great stories. I think boys need to hear some real feedback and so that they're not the white savior. But I also don't need you to be fragile.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Because there's a such thing as white fragility.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

When you hear the truth, I need you not to be fragile, but really hear real feedback and take that under consideration because somebody is telling you. So it's not my, my thing is not to bring people in to hear, oh, I've been doing so good. Let me pat myself on the back. It's not about that. Right. Because everybody is struggling right now. So what you need to hear is the real, real about what's going on in the organization. And then take that and do something about it.

[A]

One of my big takeaways here in talking in this conversation with Dr. Kiki Ramsey, who is a positive psychologist and the CEO of the Positive Psychology Coaching and Diversity Institute. You call it PCaddy or something.

[C]

Is it PCaddy?

[A]

PCaddy.

[C]

I just didn't know how to make a short name.

[A]

Is there's work we have to do. Right. It is really easy to identify an enemy. Right. And say, whoever that enemy is, they're attacking us. We have to play defense. And I think your article really ignited in me a notion that we have a lot of work to do. We need to think about this in a way that's smart, strategic, compassionate. We have to recognize that neither our staff, nor our board, nor our staff leaders always have the tools they need and that providing those tools, like for example, on the feedback from clients, you have to be ready to accept that. Right. So it goes back to my idea about bringing in somebody to talk about getting and receiving and receiving feedback. Right. These are the kinds of things that grownups in this day and age really need to know. How speaking of needing to know, Kiki, where can people find you?

[C]

Yes. And so if you want to just follow on a day to day basis, I'm always on social media. LinkedIn is, you know, I hang out there often and I post a lot of things about kind of the things that we're dealing with on a daily basis. But I'm also on all the other platforms, I do a lot of YouTube videos about some of these topics and subjects. And so you can Find me on YouTube and LinkedIn. You can also find the work that we [e-mail] that's ppcadi.com and then in terms of doing speaking, I do a lot of keynote speaking on workplace happiness because believe it or not, I still think that work should be a place that we love to be. And so you can find me on drkeke.com in terms of that and so you can get in touch with me in any of those places.

[A]

The positive energy is flying right into the fibers of my being this afternoon. So thank you for that. Thank you for taking the time. As always, my goal is to either provide you with a thought, leadership, some actionable advice, or a new way of looking at something, a problem that you have or something you're trying to untangle. And I think Dr. Ramsey here has given you a great deal of all three of those things. So we're gonna take our leave and let you get back to the important work that you do every day. But I am grateful that you took the time out to have a listen to this because that actually says something about you as a leader and a continuous learning journey that is essential in all times, but especially these. So take good care of yourselves. Thank you very much again, Kiki. And until we meet again, thank you for all that you do and we'll see you next time.

[B]

Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope this conversation provides value valuable insights as you navigate the messy but meaningful world of nonprofits. A Special thanks to DonorPerfect for sponsoring this episode and for their dedication to empowering nonprofits like yours to do more good. For more resources to support your work, visit joengarry.com podcast we think you'll find. Find a lot of helpful things there. Most importantly, thank you for all you do to make the world a better place. One small or large? Step at a time. Talk to you all next time.