C (2:43)

Oh, interesting. Well, I. That Is really. Of course, I like thinking that we were somewhat on par to the. The greatness of those movies, but it's sort of hard to Schindler's List, but nevertheless, how fun. And that's where. In a theater at Universal.

D (2:59)

Yeah, I'll send you a picture when we hang up.

C (3:02)

And you know, just so everyone understands, this was a Universal production. Universal Studios. And I don't know about Rob, but we both at one point had to go into that black tower. If you've ever gone to Universal Studios theme park, there's a black tower, we call it. And we had to go up there and meet all the executives at one point or another. And so it's. CBS distributed it, but it was a Universal production.

D (3:24)

So Universal owns the rights.

C (3:26)

Oh, Universal owns the rights, which is

D (3:28)

why we haven't seen the reboot that we. We all want.

C (3:32)

Well, Universal. Come on now. Come on now.

D (3:35)

Or we all want it. I know you're philosophical about it at this point.

C (3:38)

Yeah. But I probably. I do it. I would do it. I would just be. Gosh, it would just be so tricky. You don't want it to fail to be one of those. Oh, they came back 35 years later and they all look like shit. And it failed.

B (3:51)

Scrubs.

D (3:51)

Scrubs is doing well. Scrubs is. I haven't seen it yet, but it's. Apparently they. They got it right.

C (3:57)

That would be so fun. As long as they realize that they just. Like we have Holling and Maurice, that they keep the. The different generations and don't just go out there and make it some kind of bikini clad, 20 year old thing.

D (4:10)

Well, there's nothing wrong with some bikini clad 20 year old.

C (4:14)

Yes, but they don't belong in Northern Exposure.

D (4:16)

Oh, yeah, okay. All right.

C (4:17)

They belong in Southern Exposure. Okay. You could go to Southern Exposure to watch.

D (4:22)

Believe me, I've been pitched that. I've been pitched that. I have been pitched every version of this show, and one of them was Southern Exposure for sure.

C (4:30)

Oh, my goodness. Well, this episode, Heroes, I texted Josh, Joshua Brand, our creator, our patriarch, and said, hey, tell me why Adamant got to slip through the no celebrity rule? Because the rule was all these celebrities wanted to be on the show. They were calling left and right big ones. You may remember some of the names, but Adam somehow, and Peter Bogdanovich, I think those were our only two real celebs that made it.

D (4:55)

Yeah. And just. Just to remind the audience, this episode is called Heroes. It's episode four, season four, written by Jeff Lambing and directed by the. The great Director and our guest, Chuck Braverman. But you're right, it. Adam Ant was the guest star. And there was a kind of mandate that we didn't bring on well known figures because they didn't want it to kind of affect the, you know, the, the, the way the dynamic between us was some over, you know, known presence. I remember, funny enough, my friend Stephen Stills of Crosby, Stills and Nash, I had met him when the show was shooting and he wanted to come on and I was like, Stephen Stills? How could we not cast him? And I went to Josh and Josh was like, no. And I was like, you're kidding. Like have him come on the show.

B (5:45)

Why?

D (5:45)

It's Stephen Stills. He'd be so perfect in a cowboy hat with his guitar walking through. But he was like, nope.

C (5:51)

Yeah, but they did it with Adam and which is really interesting. And also I think it was. They didn't. Also I think they didn't want to break the fourth wall, so to speak. It was this creative, not creative. It was this sort of eccentric, quirky small town. And is it, how believable is it going to be if Jessica Lange walked in or Barbra Streisand or, you know.

D (6:10)

No, it's like my friend Noah Wiley is on the Pit and I wanted to go on it. And they were like, yeah, we don't want anyone that people know. We only want people that they don't recognize.

C (6:20)

Oh, is that why I didn't get my audition for that show?

D (6:24)

That's why.

C (6:25)

Well then I don't know why the casting director had me do it. But.

D (6:28)

Well, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe you were. Maybe for one of the leads it would have been different but for the, you know, if a guest part or an.

C (6:36)

It was a guest star, it was a guest starring. But yeah, well, it's the same, it's the same scenario, which is it takes people out of the show. But I did think the show was charming. I thought. And I can't wait to talk to Chuck about the camera angles and even the locations. That big ginormous tree trunk. Because I'm a tree. I'm a tree fanatic. I love trees. I love trees. And I have about a 300. I have millions of trees out here, but I have about a 300 year old Elm tree that's now arching over my street. But you could see that huge tree trunk that must had to be 500 years old, that tree. But the locations were great. The storyline was. I liked the. Anytime you ponder death and what happens after life, I always think that's very interesting. And they got Mesopotamia in there and the Egyptian God Osiris and the Scandinavians and they managed to bring in all the history that they usually do. And then he's, you know, Corbett, Christmas in the morning, lying in the grave like that.

D (7:36)

That's a great scene, by the way, between the both of you. And you both look really great. And, and. And of course, that location is just. Was just killer. That's Lake CLE Elum. And it was beautiful. Let me read the synopsis of the episode titled Heroes. Heroes of a different kind come to Sicily as it's visited both by Brad Boner, a rock star played by Adam Ant, and by Tully, Chris's mentor. To his surprise, Tully hasn't arrived, as Chris might have expected, but instead is dead and in a plywood coffin. As Sicily's younger residents, particularly Shelley, get distracted by Boner, who asks. Asks Ed to film him playing a festival with some in Indian Drummers. Chris wonders how best to remember Tuli, to eulogize him and to send him into the next world, but not before a biblical Last Supper. And Bob Seeger.

C (8:31)

Oh, that's right, the Last Supper was in it. How could I forget? That was so funny. I mean, that was really funny.

D (8:40)

But you know what's interesting about that? And we'll talk to Chuck about it in one second. It wasn't. It wasn't a dream sequence. It was just a kind of cutaway. Like it didn't. It wasn't set up or, you know, in any way. Usually we. Someone goes to sleep or they wake up and from one of these things.

C (8:58)

But we have had him where it's not a dream.

D (9:01)

Not like that. Usually there's some kind of context for it. This just kind of jumps out.

C (9:07)

Maybe they cut it.

D (9:08)

Maybe they did.

C (9:09)

We'll find out the moment there. Just real quickly. You know, a lot of Christians may think it was terribly blasphemous, but I. I'm a. I'm a Christian but have a sense of humor. And I. I thought it was really funny. And then Judas is like, I have some. I can pay for dinner. I've got some cash, you know, because he paid to reveal. He got paid if he would reveal Jesus with the kiss on the cheek. So I. And then when. When his friend breaks out in the. In the. The rock song, it was just really classic Northern Exposure. And of course, we've always joked in that John Corbett looked like Jesus. We've got another one where he walked through town carrying the cross, I think. Right.

D (9:47)

I think so. Yeah, yeah.

C (9:49)

So they were kind of gearing up on that. But before we move on, I will just say I felt that the letting go because he said, I know when he's in the grave, I think is where he says it and he says, I need to let him go. And then there was that wonderful moment that Corbett had where he looked up and said, what am I gonna do? You know, what am I gonna do? And of course, I've lost my father. You've lost your father. And you certainly have these moments of not wanting to actually finish it because if you have them. And of course in the, in the olden days because I watched so many documentaries and I'll stop here so we could introduce our wonderful guest. But there. But they used to keep the skulls and the bones in the tents and in the caves with them of their elders because they always wanted them around with them. So it is hard to let go. But I actually love the way he was flung and thrown into the river.

D (10:38)

I guess the theory, the. The theme here is heroes. You know, I didn't quite realize that now that I see of it. But Boner is a hero of Young and. And Tooley's a hero. So we'll talk about that. But our guest, Chuck Braverman is a director. Producer. A director of photography. He's. He. He's directed shows like Beverly Hills 90210 and. But. But a lot of documentaries, great documentaries. Thank you very much. About Andy Kaufman, the Immortalists, the Secret Takes, Tapes of oj, Weed Wars, Endurance, Journey of Equality. Coming full cir. He won an Oscar for Curtain Call, which is a best documentary short subject. Multiple DGA awards and nominations and ACE Awards. And he has a site and you can go to it. And he's everything doc. So we'll talk about that a little bit and. Hey, Chuck, how you doing?

C (11:36)

Hi, Chuck.

B (11:37)

Hi, guys. How are you?

D (11:39)

Let's get to your site before we jump on.

B (11:41)

It's Westdoc Online, W-E-S-T-O C Online.com or just Westdock will take you to the same place. And It's. I've done 197 episodes all about documentaries with the best documentary filmmakers in the world.

D (11:58)

What's the most recent one that you're excited about?

B (12:01)

I'm editing right now. Just Sing, which is a new film about college kids in an acapella singing competition. And the latest one that's online is called Come is based on a new document called Come what May, which is about the comedian Ralphie May. If you Remember him? He was a very obese, very funny comic who unfortunately died young. And his wife, his widow was also a stand up whose name is Lana Turner, who produced and directed this documentary all about Ralphie May.

D (12:39)

Now this is interesting. You come. You did documentaries lead you into directing narrative?

B (12:44)

Yes, I was a documentary filmmaker first, and then I did narrative for 15 or 20 years and then decided that it was easier shooting with a crew of two or three than 150. So I got back into documentaries at exactly the right time when there was an amalgamation of digital video was happening, cameras were getting smaller and lighter. Apple brought out Final Cut Pro1 in 1999 and it all came together right then. And that's when I got back into docs.

D (13:17)

Janine is a doc junkie, right, Janine?

C (13:20)

I am. I'm a doc junkie. And in my musical, when we show up for choreography, every morning I show up with something new I've learned from a documentary. So they say the T shirt's gonna be. You know, I watched a documentary last night. I literally fall asleep watching documentaries. I love them, love them, love them. I can't get enough of them. And I think it's because I am a passionate historian. So documentaries have that sort of mystery and intrigue and understanding. The way we talked last week about. No, I just watched one on Linda Ronstadt and so I watched them and then I watched one on Robert E. Lee.

D (13:53)

Well, check out my friend Andrew Jarecki, who was nominated for an Oscar this year for the Alabama Solution. It's very powerful, important, and worthwhile and entertaining. Right, Chuck? It's so interest, the concept of it. They were able to somehow get all these guys in this horrific prison situation using phones to film it so that it's all their footage.

B (14:18)

It's episode 191 at Westock, an interview with Andrew Jarecki and his co producer, Charlotte Kaufman.

C (14:25)

Wow. And tell us about the. The Oscar that you won.

B (14:27)

I was actually. I didn't win. I actually was nominated for an Oscar for, for a doc called Curtain Call, which was about the actor's retirement home in New Jersey. And this was right around that time when I was telling you that sort of like in, in 2000, 2001, when you. When digital cameras were beginning to happen. And I ended up spending a couple months in the retirement home there and filming all these actors and their great stories about being on Broadway and in television and. And I ended up getting nominated, which is actually pretty life changing.

D (15:07)

Yeah. What do you mean by that?

B (15:08)

Well, it's the Oscar is kind of the pinnacle of our business, whether it's for acting or directing or writing. And just getting into that club is really important. And the other thing about that time that I'm very proud of is I made a feature doc called High School Boot Camp, which is about these at risk teenage boys in a boot camp run by the county sheriff and the school board at West Palm Beach. Palm Beach, Florida. And it was like a military camp, except they emphasized education and regimentation and they're trying to prevent these kids from, you know, ending up on the wrong side of the tracks. That won the Directors Guild Award that year, so. That I did win. And I'm very proud of that, too.

C (15:53)

Well, yeah, well, you know, Rob and I have been nominated and we didn't win, and we still think it's great to be nominated.

D (15:57)

So not for Oscars, for Emmys.

C (15:59)

No, no, no, for Emmys and Golden Globes, but not yet, right?

D (16:03)

That's right. There you go. That's. That's optimistic. Hey, do you know my friend Fisher Chuck? Fisher Stevens.

B (16:10)

I know who he is. I've never done a show with him.

D (16:13)

He won an Oscar for a documentary. And I remember him showing up, showing up to a party with it in a. In a little satchel after he was walking around with it for a while.

C (16:26)

This is the difference between Rob, who lives in LA and gets to go to all the parties and hang out with everybody, and Janine, who lives on a ranch. So Rob gets to mingle with all of them, and I'm watching them.

D (16:36)

Well, maybe. I think. Chuck, Chuck, I think I'm gonna make a deal right now. Chuck, you should go do a little mini doc on Janine. Because Janine has this very rural, interesting life that I'm fascinated she tells us about. You know, she on a farm pretty much by herself, taking care of cows and horses and all kinds of creatures and the land. And I just think it's an interesting corollary between her and Maggie.

C (17:00)

True. And I chainsaw the trees and weed eats and.

B (17:04)

Well, so I'll. I'll say why?

D (17:07)

Yeah, I never asked that question.

C (17:08)

Well, people come drive out here to see the red. Like, what are you doing way out here? But it's really growing. It's not like it's way. It's not like I'm the sole entity in thousands and thousands of acres. I mean, it's 300 acres, but I have people around. But I guess I equate it to. My father was the rancher. He was West Point military and very cultured and a pilot. But I. He loved ranching and then my mother was the showbiz. So I just think it's the other half of me. And I absolutely, I love nature. I love the trees. I love animals, even when they're dying on me in an ice storm and I'm lying there trying to keep them alive. I just. I guess I just love animals and nature.

B (17:47)

Okay.

C (17:47)

And Chuck, anytime you want to come visit, let me know.

D (17:50)

Wait, Chuck, how did you get end up on Northern?

B (17:53)

You know, that's a really good question. And I asked myself that last night trying to remember, because it's what, 30 plus years ago? And I think first of all, I knew Josh Brand and John Falzi because my first episode that I directed was of St. Elsewhere, which they were writers, producers of St. Elsewhere. And they had production offices in Santa Monica at a place called Lantana, which was a wonderful private building that was only for people in the business. So if you were a cpa, you couldn't be there. You had to be a producer, directed, director or something.

D (18:34)

And you'd walk down the halls and see everyone. David Milch and Steven Bochko. It was great.

B (18:39)

And Larry David was right down the

D (18:41)

halls and Larry David's there. Yeah.

B (18:43)

And I think because they were in the building and I loved the show, you know, I watched every episode of the show and I probably said to my agents at the time, you know, like I would. And I was directing a bunch of different episodic shows. Then I said, can you get me on that show? And I get. I'm. I don't really remember. Maybe Josh remembers, but I probably. They had a meeting, walked down the hall one minute away and had a meeting. And they said, sure. Do you want to come and spend some time up in Washington?

C (19:15)

What do you remember about the experience? I mean, there's so much to talk about. But I guess we'll start with Adam Ant. And I thought. I noticed a lot of looping and I thought either it's not synced well, are there? And I could pick up some loops that we actually all did. But how was it with Adam Ant?

B (19:33)

I think from memory, my experience with Adam was quite good. And, and I watched the show last night and I thought, gee, he's, he's really good.

D (19:43)

He was good.

B (19:44)

I was surprised at how good he was because I didn't really. I couldn't really remember. You know, it's like I keep saying it's 30 years ago and it brought back a lot of memories.

D (19:53)

I have a vague memory of Going out with Corbett and him on a bender one night and just not remembering that. We ended up, I think, At Pearl Jam backstage, like, I just was a blur of a night.

C (20:10)

There you go. I missed all the fun again. I was riding my horse.

B (20:14)

I also remember. I mean, you asked me, and I'm going to be very candid, if you want. I think there was a lot of tension on the set at the time.

D (20:24)

Well, that was from Janine.

B (20:26)

No, it was because there were negotiations, I believe, going on actually for you.

D (20:32)

Oh, it was for me. I knew it was for someone.

C (20:33)

It was you. It was actually you, Rob.

B (20:35)

I don't mean that there was tension from you. I think there was just a lot of tension in general, because, you know, you realize if this was season four, you know, you guys were, like, holding on to a terrific show. And I think there was negotiating going on, maybe for everybody, but as I recall, it was for you as to, you know, are we gonna keep going into season five or six or whatever. They were negotiating. I didn't know. I just knew it was happening.

D (21:05)

Yeah, it was my contract. I was negotiating. And it got a little heated for a minute, and that heat kind of

B (21:17)

just spread a little bit around there,

C (21:20)

you know, And I'll give you a little behind. Behind the scenes. You know, there. There are these attorneys in Hollywood that say, you know, if you want more money and you're negotiating, go make life as difficult as possible on the set. I've actually had them tell me that.

B (21:32)

Really, that's terrible.

C (21:34)

You know, I didn't subscribe to that, but I think that. That. That's. That can be part of the negotiating tactic is. But anyhow, I'm not saying you did that, Rob. I'm just saying that. That.

D (21:44)

No, I didn't. I never. I never brought it to the set. I mean, but. But it was there, you know. I mean, in terms of what was going on. But it wasn't like I was not working, or they.

B (21:53)

They planted that thought in my head, you know, like, tiptoe. Tiptoe around, because there's negotiating going on. And the other thing that's, you know, just odd to begin with, which I'm sure you both are more aware of. But the job of director on an episodic show in itself is very, very odd, because. Especially on a show that's been going for a few years, because everybody that's there, the cast, the crew, the wardrobe, they all know each other, and they all have been working together now on your show three or four years, and the director comes in and the director is supposed to be in charge. He's the captain of the set. Right.

D (22:35)

It's a very tricky dynamic.

B (22:37)

Very, very tricky. You're the visiting transient director, and they all know you're not going to be here next week, you know, because, you know, we'll have somebody else directing it. Not that, you know, you're. You're not going to be here because you're going to be fired. But. But it's a. It's a very odd setup to begin with, especially on a show like that that's been on for four seasons. It's a hit show. It was a really loved show. It was a terrific show. And. And there were negotiations going on.

C (23:11)

Well, and I'll say, too, that everyone knows what they want out of the situation. And executive producers, like the cinematographer, so to speak, in television, the executive producers really are the ones that have all the power. You know, I've been on other series that I've done, too, and the executive producers stand right there by the director telling the director what to do the whole time, you know, and then they'll go up to the actors. So it's a weird dynamic, I think.

B (23:38)

I've never had that. That's terrible.

C (23:40)

Yeah. Well, I know I've experienced. Well, in a way, I think that John and Josh had a lot of power, probably in post especially, but they

D (23:49)

tended to leave directors alone. But I know what you're talking about, Janine, because I've been on sets, I've directed where, where the, the, the showrunner will kind of. At least until they know that they feel they're happy with what I'm doing, they will kind of watch over my shoulder. And there are situations where you've seen, I've seen. I've been on shows where a director is over their head and, and the ep, the, the executive producer will have to kind of. Kind of be there and babysit him, if you will, and remind him of certain coverage they want and things like that.

C (24:26)

Well, and just to explain it to the audience, the executive producers usually are the creators and television, so they are part of the writing and the process and, and, and yet it's. Executive producers are raising the money and the director has all the power, so it gets turned around a little bit. But it's probably why you love documentaries, Chuck, too. Cause you get to do your own thing, right? You get to do your own thing and not hover over, You know, that moment when you're online, maybe just browsing, and one click turns into a few more suddenly you're deeper into a site than you expected and you find something you like. Then you go to check and you hit the point where things slow down. Logins, passwords, digging through your wallet. It's enough to break the flow completely. But the purple Shop pay button makes it easy. One tap and you're done. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, helping brands create smoother, faster buying experiences from start to finish and behind the scenes. Shopify has AI tools to help ensure product pages are clear, detailed and engaging so customers can shop with confidence. From discovery to checkout, everything is built to reduce friction and keep things moving. Because when shopping feels easy, customers come back, see less carts go abandoned and more sales go. With Shopify and their Shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Northern go to shopify.com Northern that' shopify.com Northern.

D (26:22)

Can I ask you about the Last Supper? Janine and I were talking about it in the opening and I found it was, it was kind of an aberration in the way they do these fantasy dream sequences which we were known for. And they, they were, they were. And this was really well executed by the way. The, the, it was so beautifully shot. You know, the way you, where you directed it. The. I love the stuff around the lake and, and the, the stuff with Tooley who was played by, by the way, Mickey Jones played Tooley from Dallas, Janine and was a drummer for Bob Dylan before he became an actor. But I loved how that was shot. But my question is, is about that. There's no handles on that, on those two sequences. Do you remember?

B (27:11)

Well, here comes the surprise for the show. My memory is that I did not shoot that sequence and that I got back and they felt there was something story wise missing and they said, do you want to go back to shoot another sequence or so. And I probably hesitated for a minute, was on to something else or whatever and I didn't shoot those.

D (27:39)

Well, that's fascinating. Well, that explains it because it does feel like it works. I agree with Janine. It's really, I mean they're fun sequences unto themselves. But I think it is the only time in Northern Exposure where there's no kind of prelude or segue to get into the, or out of the sequence.

B (27:59)

And that show, by the way, made at the time the short list for nominations in the Director's Guild. I do remember that and I thought it was ironic that I didn't even shoot the whole show. You know, those sequences And I thought the sequence worked and it was funny, but it certainly was out of left field.

C (28:23)

That makes sense because it was put in later and that, you know, Rob, I sort of felt the same way. I thought, oh, oh, oh, okay. You know, it was just suddenly we were thrown back into this. Leonardo da Vinci, the Last Supper in Milan.

B (28:38)

It was funny. It was, it was funny and weird.

C (28:42)

It was, it was funny and. But I laughed. I laughed out loud. Especially when he starts dancing and, and he's. And, and Corbus looks like he's looking back and forth at, at his friend who's now alive, singing in front of a microphone and the girls, you know, he was going back and forth between girls, my friend. Girls, my friend. And then as I said earlier, when, When Judas says, I'll buy, I've got some money, which of course he was paid to reveal Jesus. But there are a lot of people that might have a real problem with that. But I'm like, let's just have a sense of humor about it. But that makes sense because it was sort of popped in. Interesting, interesting, fascinating. Behind the scenes scoop.

D (29:23)

So you know what I loved also? I loved, I loved how Chris Corbett dealt with Adam Ant, who was interesting. The character was interesting because. Because now that I'm about it, because I couldn't quite figure out what the theme of the show was, especially with those, those Last Supper sequences. But now I'm getting it that it's like, it's about heroes and how we deal with them and how we have expectations of them and when they die, how you deal with them. And then in the case of Adam Ant, he's kind of a semi literate, illiterate narcissist. Right. And, and, and it's interesting, you know, when he comes and speaks to Chris Steven, his reactions are so. They're just very subtle, but he's like, he's so let down by this kind of. That adamant. Doesn't seem to have even any sense of what his own music was about.

C (30:17)

Yeah, he doesn't know anything on the previously from 1987. And you can. Corbett, who's such a. Chris in the Morning, who's such a philosopher, you can see that he was really disappointed by that. Do you remember anything about that scene, Chuck, directing, directing that reaction?

B (30:34)

I really don't, if you want to know the truth. What I remember about the show was the slingshot of the coffin was a huge, big deal to set up and do with multiple cameras and multiple takes and walking down the street with Walk and Talk. I think There were two long, major walk and talk scenes that was just, you know, logistically something that. That I was sort of proud of watching and saying, oh, that. That worked, you know, but as, you know, that, you know, it. You don't get a lot of shot. And that. Those were oners, really, you know, so. And. And it, like, I had totally forgotten about as. As the stuff came up as I watched it last night. Oh, yeah, that. You know, on that stage and those. The Indians beating the drums. But the slingshot sticks in my mind of what a potential nightmare that was.

D (31:30)

Well, I think it was they. I think they were amortizing the costs because it was the second time we used it, you know, and I think. And it cost a lot of money. They had it made, built. They brought it. They flew a guy in from London named John Wayne, literally, and he built it. And I think they wanted to kind of amortize the cost of it. So they. They injected it into the. Into another episode.

C (31:55)

I would venture to say they wanted to do it again because the first one was so successful. It's not what you fling. It's the fling itself. When they were gonna fling the cow. And they ended up flinging Maggie's piano. And Sheryl Block was on our show, who said that was just a. Phenomenal. It's one of the best episodes. Everybody remembers that episode, right?

D (32:11)

Yes, I'm sure that's part of it too.

C (32:14)

Yeah. Wanting to repeat that. I mean, a little bit of both. But I think they wanted to repeat something that had already worked well.

B (32:19)

They should have done it every week, flung something.

D (32:25)

And it was beautiful. I mean, the whole sequence, the, you know, the progression of Chris's story, dealing with death, the death of his hero. And then finally, you know, figuring out how to deal with the remains. And then that beautiful sequence. You got great weather. It really looked, you know, the sky was beautiful up there.

B (32:45)

And it did look spectacular, didn't it?

C (32:47)

Was that Chris. Chris in the Morning? Was that his real. Was that his usual spot?

D (32:54)

No, I think they moved it. They moved it.

C (32:55)

Okay. But. Yeah, because I noticed all that beautiful landscape, the pine trees, and I thought. I don't remember seeing this in the others. I think that was a first. And I didn't remember seeing that massive tree trunk. Chuck, was that put there as a prop or was that a real tree trunk there?

D (33:10)

I can't imagine they put that there. It had to. I think they just shot it.

C (33:14)

That must have been a massively beautiful tree. But scenically it was gorgeous. And I thought. But you Know what I noticed? I noticed there's so many things to talk about in the show. But I don't know if you remember anything about looping, Chuck, but we hate looping. Rob and I and I could seemed. Everything seemed sort of off and it could have been with my television. But I do know definitively, Rob, it seemed like you and Corbett were looped, which means you redo the sound later in a studio when you and two are walking down the street. Did you catch that right?

D (33:46)

Well, that probably had to do with technical issues because there was all kinds, you know, either my feet were scraping as I've talked or there's trucks and noise. And the town was at that point getting really upset with us. They didn't want us to be there and they wouldn't listen to us when we tried to shut down the streets. So that could have been that.

C (34:05)

I thought I heard some hammering in one of the shots, but I just picked that. But to me, a lot of times the lips were not matching the sound. And I thought, did they loop Adam Ant a lot?

B (34:16)

Maybe they rewrote him.

D (34:18)

I think, Jeanine, that because when they were out at the water, whenever they were out on location out there, there was a lot of looping that had to be done because there were sounds that they couldn't, you know, water, water, you know, the river and all kinds of stuff.

C (34:31)

Well, I would say one of Adamant's best scenes was the opening scene when he walked into the bar. And interestingly, it was. It was profile a lot, but he really had a lot of layers, a lot of angst going on. I would have loved to have seen his face more, you know, but a lot of it played in a two shot. But you could really see the layers that he brought to that. Right, Chuck? And did. Tell me, tell us, do you remember? I mean, that's so long ago, but I mean, you left it in that two shot in editing instead of looking at his face. I'm curious about that decision and you might not remember, but you can maybe give us equivalent of why a director makes those kind of decisions.

B (35:04)

It's funny you bring it up because I watched it myself, you know, like last night and was. I felt the same way and I can't remember. But you know what happens, as I'm sure you know, in episodic editing, the visiting director gets his cut first, in theory, most of the time. And then they say thank you, and then the executive producers go in and do whatever they want with the show. And 99 times out of 100 you do your cut and you turn it in and you don't go into the office to have a conversation with them, and they don't debate with you. It would be very rare on an episodic show. It's the, you know, the executive producers then just do. Do what they think is. Is. Is best. And that's, of course, why they. Why. Why they want coverage. And. And the cliche. What I. Which I left out about the visiting director is they all the producers, nine out of 10 times, will say, we're so glad you're here. We want you to be really creative and do your thing and do what you want. The subtext is, though, as long as you stay on that railroad track that we've already built, that takes you this way, just like this, you know, in other words, you know, we have a way of doing this show, and so we want you to be creative, but do what we do.

D (36:22)

Well, they have to in defense of it. I mean. I mean, you have to have a consistency aesthetically and tonally. So, I mean, that's definitely part of it. But I do think that.

C (36:32)

But I would argue the other side of that when you. When you're finished.

D (36:35)

Well, I just think they did give a lot of latitude to directors, and yes, they definitely did their pass. But in terms of the way it was shot, I don't remember a lot of kind of interference with directors, but it is.

C (36:49)

But the irony of, Chuck, what you're saying, and Rob, is that once you hit the fourth season, everyone wants. They're afraid. They don't want to lose being the king of the hill. They don't want to lose what's working. But in a way, in the long run, which Rob and I both felt as actors, and you get stifled, it would be kind of cool, you know, if someone were allowed to come in and really change, do something uniquely different, because keeping it fresh and interesting. And that's why I think as we went on and on and on, it got. Because in a way, you need to see some fresh air and some fresh perspectives at times.

D (37:26)

It's true. And I've been on shows where directors, great directors have come in and been really interesting and doing interesting stuff, and they weren't asked back because of that, because they didn't want that.

C (37:36)

You know, it's all about control. And that goes back to what Corbett's character said when he. I think he was in the grave, right, Chuck? He said, I have to let go. You know, I have to let go of him, and I don't want to let go of him. And I think burying him was. Was more than he could handle because it was the final goodbye, so to speak.

D (38:00)

And by the way, your. Your. Your speech there, Janine, was really lovely. At the. Right before the.

C (38:06)

Yeah. What did I say? I don't even. I watched it this morning and I. What did I say in my speech?

D (38:11)

It was just a sweet kind of like perspective. You gave perspective and comfort to him and it was just. Was nice.

C (38:19)

Yeah, I thought that was the first time you really saw a nice relationship between Corbett and Maggie.

D (38:23)

Absolutely. It was nice. It was kind of set up what was to come. Ultimately, I thought it was.

B (38:28)

Watching the show last night. I thought it was odd that the two of you were not in it enough.

D (38:36)

I agree. Another show, there's been a few of them now, Janine, in a row where we haven't been that prevalent.

B (38:43)

It surprised me because, you know, it was like John was the star of the show last night instead of you two guys. And it really was your show. And it just struck me as odd that you were in it so little.

D (38:57)

I think that happens occasionally. I think that it's. They wanted to, you know, it may have been a result of the negotiations going on, but it also was. I think they liked to see where else they could expand the show. And I wouldn't be surprised because the show is. There tends to be three stories and there wasn't. There was two. And so I think that maybe it went through some revisions.

C (39:25)

Yeah, it didn't have the usual sort of flow, but I still thought it was profound and well directed. Chuck. I mean, the close ups that you did in the. In Chris, you know, in the radio. The radio.

B (39:41)

Studio.

C (39:42)

Studio. Radio studio. You kept it wide, but then you went in for some nice close ups. And I thought you did a beautiful job directing it. I thought it was cinematically beautiful. And to bring in a rock star that's not usually an actor.

B (39:58)

I remember being nervous about that.

D (40:00)

He had acted a little, but again,

B (40:03)

he held his own. He was quite good for what he was doing.

C (40:08)

He was. And I had to tell you, I got a real kick out of that. The drumming scene where he's playing his electric guitar and they're drumming behind him. And I didn't really remember, I gotta tell you, I didn't remember that much about this episode. So when I'm watching it, I'm like, you, Chuck. I'm like, oh, right. I don't know about you, Rob, but I'm like, oh, right, right. Do I actually remember anything? It's like, I don't know that I remember showing up to. To film the coffin scene where we're looking at his friend. I might remember the grave scene. Cause that was so incredibly unique, but I didn't really remember a lot of it.

D (40:42)

And it was so interesting. They had to dig that grave. That's a properly dug grave. I don't know what the instrument is they use, but a backhoe or something. But it was so deep and well

C (40:52)

dug and to get into that. And it was interesting seeing my wardrobe too, because we've learned that. That Catherine, our wardrobe costume designer, wanted us to have a closet. So they brought out the same old hat that I wore in season, what, one or two when Rick came back as a dog.

D (41:08)

And also Corbett was wearing like, that's what he wears when he's officiating or playing the reverend or something. That's always his outfit.

C (41:15)

Yeah. And you know, it may be that Rob was negotiating and that. That's why, because then they brought in right after this, they bring in the bubble man, they bring in Anthony Edwards. And I always sort of wondered, you know, what are they doing here? Cause it was an awfully big set away from the Fleischman o'. Connell.

D (41:30)

I think that was. I think they were anticipating. They were. They were trying to hedge themselves in case I didn't stay on the show.

B (41:46)

Was that weird having the two locations that you had to travel to to do the show?

C (41:51)

I loved it. It was so fresh and exciting to go out to. To those casks. And of course, Rob, don't you remember we. We would drive in spiraling snow in the dark with just. Just ver. You know, almost vertigo. Trying. Trying to get there in the. In the early. We early hours of the morning. But I loved. And all the snow made it so rich and beautiful and fresh.

D (42:13)

There's something about shooting on locations that I call it nar scenes. No acting required, because your character is in this environment and you are in that environment if it's cold, if it's hot, if it's sunny, you know, and so there you, you, you. You're not having to fabricate it as you do on a stage. You know, like, if you're supposed to be cold on a stage, it's usually heated. So you have to act cold, you know, so it. It feels very, very truthful.

C (42:43)

Well, except for me. I was freezing and I was supposed to act like I wasn't cold at all.

D (42:49)

Right.

C (42:50)

It was acting for me because I was always cold.

D (42:53)

Right. But there were. Those locations were so beautiful. That I think it was, it was almost like play. Right, Janine? We used to show up and it felt like we were, we were all kind of happy for the most part when we'd get out there and you just. They'd truck you out into the middle of nowhere and you'd feel like it was like play, you know, it was like when you were a kid and you're playing cowboys and Indians or war or whatever, it just had that kind of feel to it.

C (43:16)

Well, and to get the crew to those spots. Chuck, talk about that a little bit. I mean, just trekking and we, we, we would walk. But you have to get the can. I know because I directed a short film on my ranch and just getting things off the rickety, up the rickety road to the north 40 was quite the feat. But to get all the crew out to those places and then yet to still make it look like it's in the middle of nowhere.

B (43:36)

Well, as you know, your show was really unique because it. For, for one, it was the home base was somewhere in Washington, right.

D (43:45)

Or yeah, it was outside of Seattle.

B (43:47)

But then when you were doing the exteriors in Sicily, you. Was it an airplane ride from Seattle to Sicily?

D (43:54)

It was an hour and a half drive into the Cascades.

B (43:57)

Okay. So I knew was it was a location away from the location. So not only were you on location away from home, then you had to go to another location. And you stayed there overnight, as I recall.

C (44:10)

Two or three nights. Yeah.

B (44:11)

Yeah. So you were changing hotel rooms for the director, getting crew out. I don't know. That's part of the deal and part of, you know, I sort of made a crack at the beginning about going from having crew of 100 to making documentaries with a crew of two or three. But there's something nice about seeing. And the 40 foot trucks, you know, lined up and the breakfast burrito, it's ready when you get there at 6:30 in the morning.

C (44:39)

You know what I love that reminds me of movie making. Or is the sound of the generators. You know, the generators powering all of the trailers and the trucks and whatnot. And it just makes. That's always a wonderful sound. For me with acting, it's the auditioning that's hellacious. It's with the working is the fun part. I mean that's the magic when you actually get the work. It's trying to get the work that's so hard.

D (45:01)

Right. But I always equate it to like a military occupation. We come in with these tricks trucks, we take over, we Tap into the power. We own the power. We own the street.

B (45:11)

And they hate you in the town.

D (45:12)

After they hate you. We went through a lot of machinations. Eventually, they loved us in the town, but. But the first few years, they were definitely resentful.

C (45:19)

They get paid. It's not like they go in and we don't pay them.

D (45:22)

Yeah, but the people that walked through the town weren't paid that. They wanted to go to the store and they were told they couldn't.

C (45:27)

Well, yeah, that. I think that's why we heard hammering.

B (45:30)

Right.

D (45:30)

Once it be. Exactly. You're right. They would. They would just intentionally mess up our sound of our takes. But once we became a hit, they began to like it because, A, I think it affected property values and B, it brought business in because. And to this day, it's a tourist destination. So I think they. They're happy about it now.

C (45:48)

Well, K Bear. K Bear is a monument. It's like a museum piece, and so is Joel's office.

D (45:55)

And, you know, I mean, for sure,

B (45:57)

you were talking earlier about, I think, in the intro about Redos. Have you had any serious talks about,

D (46:05)

you know, many serious talks, and it all seems to be dead now. We did. We had. The last one was with Josh Brand, and it fell apart. And Universal has no interest.

C (46:18)

Well, and the thing that's so disturbing about it is they don't want the original cast.

D (46:23)

No, that's not true. They wanted the original cast, but they wanted to add to it. You just don't. You don't realize you were in. Everyone was in it. That was. Who wanted to be in it, was in it. In the last one, there was one version they tried to do that completely had no cast, nobody in it.

C (46:39)

That's. I think that's the one to which I'm referring. And. And I called the head of Universal. I said, what's going on? I mean, you know, Rob and Corbett are doing this, and I'm going to be left out of it completely. Like, what. What's happening?

D (46:51)

We weren't involved in that. There was four incarnations. The second one, the Corbin and I were involved in, one that you would have been involved in. And then they. They took it away and they had a bring on a showrunner and they wanted a nobody. They wanted to put it in a different town. They weren't even going to put it in. And I stayed on as executive producer and I was like, guys, at least put it in Sicily. That's a character on the show. The audience is gonna hate it if it's so then that didn't work. Then they tried another one. Then they brought Josh on, and Josh's version was gonna include everybody, but they did and understandably had to create new younger characters. And so it was gonna have everybody in it, but they've lost interest. And what. I'm fascinated. You know, there's. Everywhere I go in the world, people say they want to see it, and we haven't been able to do it.

C (47:42)

Well, I think that's what's tricky about it. If you get a younger generation in there trying to produce it, that they don't really remember the show or what it was really about, and they don't understand that what it kind of a landmark highlight. It was so unique, the value of the show. And they want to come in and just do kind of a young. Kind of. That's why I think it's tricky, because it would be so sad if it lost that charm and intelligence and quirkiness.

D (48:11)

You're right. And it's tricky to pull off. It was a tricky. It was lightning in a bottle, as they say.

C (48:16)

Yeah, exactly. Well, Chuck, what was your favorite scene in the show?

B (48:19)

I think just Adam Ant, in general, was this surprise for me and how much I enjoyed seeing him and how good he was, and that was the surprise. And in general.

C (48:32)

General.

B (48:33)

And I hope Adam Ant is. Is. Is. Is around and working and happy and doing whatever he wants to be doing.

D (48:42)

You know, we tried to get him on the show, by the way. We couldn't get him on. He didn't want to.

C (48:46)

Right? We couldn't. Well, Adam may have wanted to do it, but I don't think his agents ever told him because agents are notorious for that.

B (48:51)

The agents didn't even contact him directly somehow.

C (48:54)

Well, you have to go through agents. The agents didn't get back to me or Rob.

B (48:58)

He's in UK somewhere.

D (49:01)

I believe so. Yeah.

C (49:02)

But the last scene, when Cynthia walks up and, oh, you forgot your meal, you know, and she gives him a kiss on the cheek. I don't know about the both of you, but I thought Adam's reaction was so interesting, he almost looked irritated. It was an interesting choice. Did you catch that?

D (49:18)

I think so, yeah.

B (49:19)

Yes, I did.

C (49:21)

He was irritated. He was just bothered by it. I thought that was fascinating.

D (49:26)

Well, that's why the character was such a. He was kind of unappealing, you know, the character, not the actor. And I think that's the point, ultimately, is the. The, you know, the expectation of that heroes. I have this theory that heroes don't exist. Anymore. Not heroic acts. There are heroic acts, but I just feel like we keep being disappointed by heroes.

C (49:48)

Oh, the drum. When the Native Americans. I thought that scene. Chuck, you did a great job directing that with all of them standing. And I'm like, oh, you got some tall ones in there after all. Because there was a tall Native American on the left, left hand side. But they were all. Why do you think it was that they didn't want to be a part of his show? They said a pebble in the.

B (50:07)

I was going to say because he was a pebble in their shoe. Or worse. You know, he was. His character. He was a jerk. And they. It took him a while to get past the stardom of it all and realize he was just not with. Not good for them and didn't appreciate, you know, anything that other than, you know, it was all about him.

C (50:29)

Well, that's why it ends with I am the world. It ends with I am the world instead of we are the world. Did y' all catch that? At the end? He goes, it's I am the world. And Darren says, yes, I am the world. So I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

B (50:46)

And maybe that was looped in afterwards.

C (50:50)

Maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, too, but I'm pretty sure that that was one of the lines. But, yeah, I. I think that he wasn't really honoring the Native American heritage. They were just being used as props for his. His performance.

B (51:04)

And how did he get there? He get on the wrong plane?

C (51:07)

Well, they think he was in Sicily. They never really explained that. Sicily, you know, Italy. They didn't really explain how he thought He. Like, what. How did. How did that happen?

B (51:18)

Right.

D (51:18)

I guess he just was, you know, debauched on a bender or something and said, you know, take me to Sicily. And maybe he was in the US and they took him to Sicily. But he was fun. I liked him. He was an interesting guy.

C (51:33)

Yeah, he was. So I'm trying to think of what else. Cynthia did a great job, as usual, with John Cullen being. Oh, and that scene you had, the scene between Barry and the. What do you remember about the pool table scene between Barry and.

B (51:48)

I was watching it the first time, trying to figure out. Out, you know, where it was going to go, how I shot it, whether the balls were actually going in the pockets or not. And then I noticed that you don't see the table after the first shot or whatever. And then you. I like the way it worked. It moved around the table and. And I'm really glad that I watched the show last night.

D (52:12)

Yeah, it. Pool table scenes are hard to shoot because of that. You.

B (52:16)

You know, especially on an episodic show, if you're doing a feature film, you know, you could take a week doing the pool table. This. That was probably shot in an hour and a half, right?

C (52:26)

True, true, true, true. But it was fun seeing that, you know, Maurice was reminiscing about his days of being on the other end of it, where he was the adamant, so to speak, and join the fandom, so to speak, and then to see John Column getting all upset about it, and then to try to have that conversation with Shelley where, you know, you're bringing me down. It's embarrassing for you, but it's embarrassing for me. And she's like, well, I can live my life and do whatever I want. Sorry if it embarrasses you.

B (52:59)

She was great. My wife watched the show with me last night, and she says, are they a couple? And I said yes. And I couldn't explain why or how because I couldn't remember what was going on.

D (53:12)

Well, I think we have to kind of wind it up, Chuck. But, man, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your memories with us.

B (53:19)

I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to be on here. And when I first got your text, Jeanine, I thought, well, this is a unique scam. This can't be real out of left field.

D (53:30)

Well, you wrote us the check, right? Did Janine tell you you have to write us a check?

C (53:36)

Not true. Not true. Right. I'm a texter more than an email person, so I'm just so glad, Chuck, that you responded and we were able to see your face again. It's just one of the joys of doing these podcasts are to reflect on the show, but also to see the directors and producers and writers and fellow cast members. And so to see you again is really a real treat. And congratulations on the profound work that you've been doing with your documentaries and your podcast. Sounds wonderful. And you're obviously an inquisitive mind, and I think that that's admirable. And I really can't look for and artistic. So you put those two things together, and it's heroic.

B (54:20)

It's been a joy for me. Thank you so much.

C (54:23)

And I'm going to listen to your show, everybody. Again. It's west.

B (54:26)

Westdoc. Net is easy. W e s t d o c.net Westdoc.

C (54:32)

Net west meaning California West.

B (54:35)

Yes, west, as in there's hot docs and big rocks.

C (54:39)

And net. I'm going to go because, you know, when I stay awake at night watching documentaries. So thank you all so much. And we'll see you next time, next week. And we're going to close up the show for today. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button and tell your friends about Northern Disclosure and Northern Exposure. So we're winding down now. And I'll see you next week. From o' Connell and Fleischman.

D (55:02)

Actually, I think it should be Fleischman.

C (55:03)

O'.

D (55:03)

Connell. Mm.

C (55:05)

In your dreams, Fleischmann.

B (55:15)

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.