RERUN - S1E4: "Dreams and Schemes and Putting Greens" with Barry Corbin

Summary

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Northern Disclosure — RERUN S1E4: "Dreams and Schemes and Putting Greens" with Barry Corbin

Podcast: Northern Disclosure
Host: Evergreen Podcasts
Date: January 13, 2026
Featured Guest: Barry Corbin (Maurice Minnifield)
Co-hosts: Janine Turner (Maggie O’Connell), Rob Morrow (Joel Fleischman)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Northern Disclosure revisits S1E4 (“Dreams, Schemes and Putting Greens”) of the beloved ‘90s TV series Northern Exposure, with a special guest appearance by Barry Corbin, who played Maurice Minnifield. Co-hosts Janine Turner and Rob Morrow share memories and behind-the-scenes stories with Corbin, discussing the show’s magic, actors’ craft, memorable lines, and the unique working environment that made Cicely, Alaska, so special.

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Key Topics and Discussions

1. Celebrating Barry Corbin and the Multifaceted Maurice (01:16-04:00)

• Janine and Rob express excitement about revisiting the episode and having Barry as a guest, emphasizing his impact from the pilot onward.
• Discussion about Maurice’s character—his outward toughness but inner sensitivity, particularly highlighted in this episode.

2. Favorite Lines and Episode Highlights (04:54–06:52)

• Janine highlights memorable lines from the episode, including:
  • Maggie’s: “Before you become a distant, distasteful memory to me.”
  • Maurice's: “Warm liquor gives me gas.”
  • Shelly’s father’s: “You knocked my daughter up during the salmon run.”
  • Maurice on marriage: “Elizabeth Taylor couldn’t get enough of a good thing.”
  • The poignant: “Can’t take memories away.”
• Dialogue about the fun and emotional balance the show struck.

3. Actor Memories: Learning on the Job (06:52–09:04)

• Rob shares how playing Joel led him to actually take up golf, reflecting on the odd phenomenon of actors performing feats under pressure during filming.

“When the camera rolls, I do it right. That’s the craziest thing...” — Rob Morrow (07:39)

4. Behind the Scenes—Early Days and Camaraderie (10:43–21:00)

• Barry recounts his life in Texas, getting his start in theater, and the roundabout way he became Maurice. He shares insights about his career, time in New York theater, and landing the role.
• Banter about cast camaraderie, Sunday brunches, and horseback rides in Seattle.

5. Auditioning for Maurice & Character Layers (17:22–23:32)

• Barry’s unorthodox audition: he entered, did push-ups for the casting panel, and then left—an act of bravado that won him the role.

“I went in and I said, ‘Gentlemen, shall we begin?’...threw the script down, did pushups...” — Barry Corbin (17:48)

• Corbin explains the difference between Maurice’s machismo and his real self, describing his attempt to imbue Maurice with authentic vulnerability and emotional depth.

6. On Masculinity, Vulnerability, and the Writing (22:52–28:14)

• Janine and Rob reflect on the show’s ability to explore complex masculinity through Maurice—his inability to truly connect with the women he idolizes, but also moments of humility and sensitivity.
• Barry: “People used to ask what I have in common with Maurice, and I said, ‘We look alike and talk alike, and that’s about it.’” (22:52)
• Discussion of the “wedding singer” scene and Maurice’s emotional journey in this episode.

7. Astronaut Backstory & Meeting the Real Deal (29:13–29:57)

• Barry narrates getting to know real astronauts while researching narration for the TV show Moonshot, deepening his understanding of Maurice’s backstory.

8. Working with Directors, Showrunners & On-Set Dynamics (39:09–57:30)

• Honest talk about challenges working with changing producers and directors, and how the creative vision shifted after original showrunners Joshua Brand and John Falsey left.
  • Barry: “I thought they were heading us for cancellation almost immediately.” (39:22)
• Janine notes the loss of character-driven moments, like Maggie’s settings changing from bush pilot scenes to more mundane locations.
• Insight into the difference between TV and film directing, the struggle to balance personal acting truths with guest directors’ visions, and the impact of editing.

“Best explanation for a direction I ever had comes from Ethan Cohen: ‘If we cast it right, we don’t have to give direction.’” — Barry Corbin (57:30)

9. Silence, Space, and the Art of Performance (62:04–63:56)

• Paul and Janine decry the way editing sometimes eliminates pauses and silences essential for emotional storytelling.
• Barry: “A lot of times the important thing is the silence, you know? That, that’s more important than what you’re saying.” (63:13)

10. Memories, Legacy, and the Essence of the Show (64:30–74:44)

• The trio reflects on the profound role of memory—both good and bad—in life and the show, connecting it to Maurice’s closing lines: “You can’t take memories away.” (66:02)
• They discuss the lasting bonds among cast members, the impact of shared experiences, and the still-vivid essence of their time in Cicely.

11. Barry’s Craft and Scene-Stealing Talent (73:25–73:49)

• Janine and Rob sing Barry’s praises, noting his ability to “steal every scene” and bring a sense of authority and emotional range.

“Every scene that you’re in, you steal the scene. You just do. You’re in total command... mesmerizing to watch you work.” — Janine Turner (74:44)

12. Closing Stories and Sentiment (72:41–74:58)

• Barry recounts a story about improvising “scene-stealing” during a film with Sylvester Stallone: “If they’d write me some dialogue, I wouldn’t have to [steal scenes]!” (73:25)
• Final mutual well-wishes and hopes of working together again.

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Notable Quotes

• “You can’t take memories away.” — Maurice (Barry) [47:39]
• “We look alike and talk alike, and that’s about it.” — Barry Corbin on Maurice [22:52]
• “Every scene that you’re in, you steal the scene.” — Janine Turner to Barry [74:44]
• “The best direction I ever got was from Ethan Coen: ‘If we cast it right, we don’t have to.’” — Barry Corbin [57:30]
• “A lot of times the important thing is the silence, you know?” — Barry Corbin [63:13]
• “We never just stood around a table. We were always moving, always had a great background behind us.” — Janine Turner [32:45]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:16 — Introduction and Episode Setup
• 04:54 — Notable Lines from S1E4
• 06:52 — The Realities of Playing Their Characters
• 10:37 — Barry Corbin Joins the Conversation
• 17:22 — Auditioning for Maurice
• 22:52 — Barry on Maurice’s Character
• 29:13 — Researching for Maurice’s Astronaut Backstory
• 39:09 — Transitions in Showrunners
• 44:08 — Impact of Producer Change on Characters
• 55:14 — Navigating Director Input vs. Actor Intuition
• 62:04 — The Art (and Loss) of Silence
• 66:02 — Discussion of Memory
• 73:25 — Barry’s Take on Scene Stealing
• 74:44 — Emotional Goodbyes and Praise

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode maintains a warm, candid, nostalgic tone, filled with affectionate ribbing among co-stars and authentic insight into the unique challenges and joys of creating Northern Exposure. There’s a shared sense of gratitude for the creative atmosphere of the show, the characters, and the enduring bonds the cast developed on and off screen.

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Summary

This deep-dive episode offered a rare look into the artistry and humanity behind one of TV’s most beloved characters, Maurice Minnifield, and the camaraderie that defined Northern Exposure. Through laughter, memories, and a few gentle jabs, Janine Turner, Rob Morrow, and Barry Corbin illuminate both the quirks of life in Cicely and the creative alchemy that keeps “Dreams and Schemes and Putting Greens” a classic.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Bobby Finger.

[A]

And I'm Lindsey Weber. Our podcast who Weekly is everything you need to know about the celebrities. You don't think of us as your cheat code to People magazine. Your glossary for Hollywood, a shortcut to understanding pop culture at large.

[B]

For the past eight years, who Weekly has been telling listeners everything they need to know about the celebrities. They don't.

[A]

Who Weekly airs twice weekly with brand new episodes on Tuesdays and Fridays. Listen and follow who Weekly and Odyssey podcasts available now for free on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Hello listeners, it's Janeane Turner. We took a break, but we will be back with new episodes of Northern Disclosure soon. In the meantime, we're bringing back one of our favorite episodes from the archive. Enjoy and we'll see you soon. Hi, I'm Jeanine Turner. Welcome to Northern Disclosure, where we walk through every episode of Northern Exposure and a thrill to be with you today. And Rob Morrow is here on the show, of course, your co host of Northern Disclosure and the famous Barry Corbin, legendary film star, television star, theater theater star. He portrayed Maurice in Northern Exposure and he is with us today. And we are going to have so much fun. Rob and I were just opening up, doing a little chit chat with Barry Corbin. We were laughing, we were in stitches. This is so much fun, isn't it, Rob? You know, first it was you and I and the pilot and then we had John Corbett and we had. No, we had Joshua, Brandon and John Corbett and now we had the fabulous Barry Corbin. And you know, this is really special for us, isn't it Rob? To, you know, relive memory.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Jeanine, first of all, you look lovely as you do. Every week you get more and more beautiful. I like your hair. Your hair and your. You never know what to Expect with your hair. I think last week we were blonde and this week we're brunette.

[A]

I think I've settled on this. I think this is gonna be my Northern Exposure hair.

[B]

They both look great. And. Yeah, that was a fun episode. I mean, you know, John Corbett just puts a smile on anyone's face who's around him and as. As does Barry. So it's gonna be a double episodes. So. Yeah, it has. Just like you said, it's been watching these shows. I watched it again yesterday. Dream Schemes and Putting Greens. Right, is the name of the episode. It's funny because a lot of people don't know names of episodes in TV because they rarely get put on the credits like. And I don't think they ever were with Northern Exposure. But it becomes self explanatory when you watch the episode. But it's. It's a. It. It fortunately features Barry Corbin. You know, kind of Maury's kicking into gear in a big way. He's got a lot of dimensions in this episode, and there's a lot of really funny and charming scenes that were.

[A]

Fun to look at. Barry was great from day one. I mean, from day one in the pilot. And I can't wait to talk to him because his level of emotional depth that he brought to the character and that sense of humor, it was just perfect. It was that tough, outdoorsy astronaut from Alaska. And then he had that sensitivity that can welled up. And in this particular episode, which we'll talk about, you know, losing the. The love of his life and things of that nature. And there were so many great lines, Rob and I, I just. Okay, I wanted to explain to everybody what I just said to Rob. I watched the show last week with my mother. And then today as I was doing the Texas Doll up, putting on my makeup on, I was listening to it. And it's really fun to just listen and not watch. Because when you watch, you're so engaged in people's acting and the scenery and the cinematography and the acting and all that. But when you're listening to it, there's some great lines. Can I just. Do you mind, Rob, if I just shoot off a couple of great lines?

[B]

Go for it. I'd love to hear them.

[A]

Okay, one is when you and I. Now I will give a little back history that John FY was always the one who called me and would say things like, it's a comedy. Write it down. Because he wanted me to be funnier.

[B]

It's funny. They must have divided and conquered because Josh always was the one who called me.

[A]

Really? Y. Oh, that's interesting. So Josh was calling you, and John was calling me. Joshua, Brandon. John Falzi, the creators of our show. And he would call and say things like, it's a comedy. Write it down. Because they thought I was too, you know, emotional. Cause I was always trying to be in the emotional depth. And they told me, John called me with this particular episode, episode four, and said, you finally hit your stride. You know, this is the Maggie that we're looking for, which is good and bad, but nevertheless, we had. Those were fun, electric scenes between the two of us. But I love when Maggie says, before you become a distant, distasteful memory to me. And I think it's great that we have not become distant, distasteful memories to each other. I love Maurice's line, warm liquor gives me gas. I thought that was really funny. I love when Shelly's father comes and says, you knocked my daughter up during the salmon run.

[B]

Right. Catch that.

[A]

And then. And then Marie and Shelly, who had her come out, show. And then you and I had that thing about the socks. And we say, sorry about the socks. I apologize to you. I say all these terrible things to you, but I apologize to you about the socks. And you're like, well, I had them at the dry cleaners, or, you know, whatever you said. And then I only have a few more. Shelly says, it's yuck. You know, Marie, stop doing that. It's yucky. It makes me feel weird. And then we'll talk to Maurice about his singing, which I thought was amazing. That moment when you and I drop. When you drop the ring, two more lines. And Barry Corbin says, talking about marriage. Elizabeth Taylor couldn't get enough of a good thing. I thought that was a great line. And then I wrote down, can't take memories away. I don't know where that line came from anymore, but those are some of the lines that I thought were awesome. What about you, Rob, when you rewatched, Watched it.

[B]

Well, you know, the first thing I remember was thinking, I love that. That. That outfit they got you in and the. The brown vest and the yellow shirt. That became a bit of a staple for a while. And it just. To me, it just. It just said who she was, you know, or who she wanted to be at that point. And. And I like that. You know, it's funny because in my career, I've had to do certain things that became part of my life, and I hadn't played much golf up to that point in my life. I had caddied as a kid, but I didn't really play. I mean, I played a little bit, but. But so in order to. Because Joel was an avid golfer, I started taking lessons up in Seattle and joined a golf club and. And started playing golf. And it became a huge part of my life. And. And. And here's an interesting thing that's happened to me a number of times. It happened in that episode, and it happened in the episode when we went. I had to do things that I don't necessarily do well. Shoot a golf ball to a specific spot, sink a jump shot, basketball. I don't do it, but when the camera rolls, I do it right. That's the craziest thing that. I mean, I'm sure a lot of actors go through this. There's something about the concentration that happens. So, like, when I had to hit a certain golf shot when the camera was rolling, I could do it. But as soon as they said cut, I couldn't.

[A]

Yeah, because it's a millisecond. You know what I mean? It would. It would be like when I'm chopping wood. I hate to disappoint people. I am extraordinarily outdoorsy. I'm extraordinarily outdoorsy. I'm in my snake boots and I'm walking to the barn, and I'm smucking stalls and chasing my baby steer. Baby bull, longhorn and whatnot. But I do not know how to chop wood, and I do not know how to fly an airplane, and I do not know how to, you know, fix plumbing or a tire. But I could do it. I could do it for that millisecond for the camera. Right. Rob, we would. We would have experts there to say, how do we do this? How is this?

[B]

Yeah. But what I'm saying is I actually did it. It wasn't just fake. It. Something happens where the belief that I can do it within the character allows me to do it for real.

[A]

Not just.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I don't know. It's a fun.

[A]

Playing golf is a little bit different than flying an airplane, don't you think?

[B]

I would think so, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

By the way, I will tell everyone I am a golf orphan. My father was at the golf course all the time to the extent that my mother would get very upset. And my mother. He played golf on Mother's Day, and my mother was very upset. And so she took our car and drove it onto the golf course. And I was in the front seat. That was fun. I was young. And she goes, turner, you need to come Be home for Mother's Day. And my dad looked at her chewing tobacco, spitting with his West Point, you know, golf course. And he goes, janice, I keep trying to tell you, you're not my mother. Okay, so it was great for Northern.

[B]

Exposure, but I just want to say I love how. I love how much Shelley and, and, and Maurice, how much they love each other on, On a certain level that they can get past this thing. If there's something so sweet about the relationship. And there's some really good scenes between. Between Barry and Cynthia that we'll talk about.

[A]

It's a good episode. Barry, we're so thrilled. We're so thrilled to have Barry on today. So, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to bring in the famous, the amazing, the emotional, the tough, the. The multifaceted talent. Barry Corbin, who also happens to be a Texan, and he and I live together. And he and I would show up on set with our spurs and our horses and our pickup trucks. So. Ladies and gentlemen, Barry Corbin.

[C]

Well, hello there. How's everybody doing?

[B]

So good, man.

[C]

I've been sitting over here watching. Looks like we're in the same place. Rob, where are you?

[B]

I'm in. I'm in California. I'm in la.

[C]

Well, I'm in Fort Worth. Background looks the same.

[B]

It does look similar.

[C]

It looks like we're in the same house.

[B]

We could do a scene and cut it together. I like that shirt of yours. Did you go to Muscle Shelves?

[C]

Yeah, I did a recording session there for a couple of days. They saw my show, my one man show, and I tell stories in that show.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[C]

So I did an album of stories and they're putting together some music to go behind it.

[B]

I've always wanted to go to that place. Isn't amazing.

[C]

Oh, it's, you know, it's full of recording studios, full of history.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

[A]

You know, y' all are gonna find this odd, but I actually recorded an album in Muscle Shoals. I might have been in your same studio. I did. It was a little album I wrote. Which Juliet. Songs that we wrote and composed. And a friend of mine that I'd met from years earlier, he was in Alabama and he had a recording studio in Mexel Shoals. And supposedly it was a studio where Elvis had recorded. Is that where you were, Barry?

[C]

I was at Billy Lawson's studio. Wishbone Studio, they called it. I did about 10 stories, and they're not necessarily stories that are in my show. I just told some stories about growing up, different things.

[B]

Where did you grow up, Barry?

[C]

In West Texas.

[B]

West Texas. And then where'd you start your career?

[C]

Well, I. I guess the first job I had was at the Colorado Shakespeare Festival in Boulder.

[B]

Did you go to college? Like, did you study acting in college or anything like that?

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I went to college. I'd go to college if I liked the plays they were doing. If I didn't like the plays, I'd go to work on an oil rig somewhere and make. Make enough money to go to college next.

[B]

And that's the perfect. That. That explains you as an actor in a nutshell, right? That you would. If you like the play, you would do it. If not, you'd work on an oil rig, which is why, you know, you. I think of you. Did you play an oil man in. In Urban Cowboy with John Travolta? Was that what you were.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I played a lot of oil man. The. The guy was working. The guy was playing in Urban Cowboy. Was. He was a petrochemical plant worker.

[B]

Right. Well, they got to get you on Landman. I would think that's. That's. That's a show perfect for you.

[C]

No, I'm too old for Landman.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

They don't have any old guys in that thing. Billy Bob's about the oldest one they got.

[A]

You were just on. You starred. You had. You've had such a famous and illustrious career, and you just. You know, last year, two years ago, you were in the Flower. Martin Scorsese film. What was it called?

[C]

Killers of the Flower.

[A]

That's right. Which I watched. And I loved Killers of the Flower Moon. And so you were in that, too, and you worked with Martin Scorsese.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'll tell you a funny movie.

[C]

I worked with a bunch of famous people throughout the years. I forgot who they were now. But I. I did work with a lot of famous people at one time. I'm. I'm failing now in my memory.

[B]

Hey, Barry, did you.

[C]

So did you got too much crammed in up here.

[B]

Did you end up in New York? Start like doing. I feel like I remember you.

[C]

Yeah, I was in New York for about 12 years and time.

[B]

What was your big break like? What kind of put you. Was there something that put you on the map and start. And changed your trajectory?

[C]

Well, I did two seasons at the American Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Connecticut. When I first got to New York, I happened to be in Virginia a couple of weeks ago, and I went back to the place where I got my Equity card. Oh, wow. Which was the Barter Theater in Abingdon, Virginia earnings.

[B]

The Equity card, just so people know, is that there's different unions for each. There's a union for theater. There's a union. There used to be a union for television and film. Now they've merged. But Equity, Actors Equity is the union that covers theater actors.

[C]

Yeah. And that was the first union I joined. And Ernie Borgnine got his Equity card there. Gregory Peck got his there. Patricia Neal got hers there.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So I'm with a good bunch of people.

[B]

So do you love doing Shakespeare?

[C]

I used to, I, you know, it's, I do a little bit once in a while now just to keep my, keep my hand in, but not much. I don't do too much.

[B]

The other night I went to this thing. My friend Jason Alexander, you know, you guys know Jason. He part, he was a guest in this show called Improvise Shakespeare. It is the most brilliant thing I have ever seen. If you get a chance, they tour around, you must see it. They literally, they come out, there's about five or six of them. They had Jason with them and they asked the audience for, for a suggestion for a title of a Shakespearean play made up. And then they improvise for two hours. A complete Shakespeare play. And it, and it's, it's, it's a comedy. It's just, it's, it's like Monty Python, you know, on steroids. It's, it's, that's so fun. It's really funny, you know, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And Barry has, for all of you who are listening, Barry has a one man show that travels around the country. So you should check, check out Barry, Barry's shows which he, you, he recites a little Shakespeare and then does Q and A and talks with the audience. But you know, it's interesting listening because Barry, that's so fun to learn about your New York career. And of course John Cullum was out of New York and then Rob and I were out of New York. So I think the four of us and I was with the Common Ground Theater and Rob, you were in theater. So I think the four of us had kind of our roots in theater, which is sort of interesting.

[B]

Barry, did you know Cullum in New York?

[C]

No, I didn't know him until we got on the. I'd been a fan of his. I'd seen almost all his shows in New York.

[B]

What do you tell. What was the process of getting Northern Exposure? Do you remember like when you read it and any of that?

[C]

Yeah, I read the script and I thought it was very good script and I figured they were seeing every middle aged man in the, in Hollywood for this part, you know, So I went in and I did a little improv.

[B]

Oh, did you, you improvised around the script or.

[C]

Well, yeah, I went in and I said, gentlemen, shall we begin? And I threw the script down on the floor and I fell forward and I started doing push ups. And casting director was reading to me and I was answering her, doing these push ups.

[A]

Oh my God, that's brilliant.

[C]

And then I stood up and I said, satisfactory, gentlemen? And then I turned and walked out. No, then they called me and by this time I was down in Florida doing another pilot which I was not signed to do the series. I just was doing the pilot and they said, you've got to come back, meet the network. I said, well, I can't do it. I said, I'm doing the show here and I'm not going to leave these people in the lurch. They said, well, they cast somebody else. I said, okay, let them do it. And so that was that. And then next thing I knew, I was in it.

[A]

So did you have to go to the network, Barry? Did you have to go meet the Net that was her network when you're doing the push ups? That was at the network or.

[C]

No, no, no, that's just John and.

[A]

Oh, so did you, you got the role without having to go to the network? Yeah, we talked about. Wow, that's interesting. That's really interesting. Well, you had such an illustrious career at the time. You know, Rob and I were beginners. Well, we weren't beginners. We'd been working but I mean we hadn't had our big.

[C]

Well, they normally like for you to come in, make sure you got all your fingers and toads and stuff like a gladiator.

[B]

I remember when I, when, you know, I knew your work, I had seen you in movies like War Games and you know, I mean, an urban cowboy, you know, so you were just someone that was in my head as just a great character actor. And when, when, when we walked into that reading to do the first read through of the, of the first episode of the pilot episode and you were there, I thought, oh, we, we've got, you know, gave us credibility because, you know, Cullum wasn't, was a theater actor but he didn't have many movie TV credits and you were, you know, you were a veritable star at that point. And so I automatically thought, oh, this is this kind of, this ups everyone's game. I felt I have to Kind of rise to what Barry can do. And then also, I just want to say that you instantly went into the role of kind of the patriarch of the set. Like, you really made a point to make us all feel welcome and safe. And you would have us over to the house for brunch on Sunday and take us on, right?

[A]

I was. I wasn't invited to brunch on yesterday.

[C]

You were.

[B]

Yeah, you were. We would go to. Yeah, Jeanine, you were there. We had brunches.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

Yeah, you were there. And we went riding. You and I went riding on one on Barry's horses. And it was. There was a real kind of camaraderie.

[A]

And I had our own Barry. Barry and I had our own communion. We.

[C]

I took Corbett for a ride. We rode out for about an hour and stopped for coke somewhere, tied our horses up, and he said, I'm gonna call the cab. Would you lead that horse back? I said, hell, no. He's gonna ride it back.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

Well, you know, Barry, what I think you did in this show, which we've been talking about you. This is our fourth episode, and we've been singing your praises all along. And just the pilot alone, the bravado that you brought to the character, this sort of masculinity that I think is probably innate in being a man, you know, from Texas, and the things that would come out of your mouth, which we've talked about a lot in the past few episodes, and you could say them, and yet it wasn't offensive. And these arcs that you had, you know, especially that show about Walt Whitman, and then at the end, you know, you just. You would do anything to defend Walt Whitman. You just think, every man needs to be a hero. And in this show particular, in episode four, you had. We see the depth that you feel of, you know, the fact that you're losing Shelley and that Shelly's having another man's child. And you mirrored that kind of duality really beautifully between the macho. And I always joke, you know, Diane came in later, the sheriff, and y' all had that love affair, and one minute you're macho, macho, macho, and the next minute, you're ironing her underwear. You know, it's like that dichotomy. I keep talking about that a lot, but I want to talk to you about that emotional level you were able to bring, because you did. You always. I worked on that way with my. You know, Rob and I talked last week. You know, I was always looking at the script Thinking, what is my emotional. What are my emotional choices? And I think you had such emotion underneath your bravado. Talk to us about how you brought that to life, those layers.

[C]

Oh, well, people used to ask me what I have in common with Maurice, and I said, we look alike and we talk alike, and that's about it. And that is about it. I'm not at all like that character.

[B]

Yeah, you're like kind of an old hippie in a way, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, kind of. But I mean, among other things, I didn't know what a hippie was. I was too old to be a hippie.

[B]

But you were definitely more like that than hard ass.

[C]

I had long hair and a beard. People. Somebody drove past me. I was walking along the street. Somebody drove past me, threw a beer can at me and said, hey, hippie. I thought they was accusing me of being fat, and I just shot him in the finger. And that was it. I had some set to's back there. And back in those days, we were in Stratford, and I'd go to this bar named Ryan's Bar down the street, and I had a couple of little, little punch outs with some fellas there. But, you know, they, they, they came to respect me pretty much.

[B]

Well, that sounds like Maurice talking right now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it does. Well, talk to us about that. That, that kind of. You definitely have an innate machismo. I mean, you, you know, that kind.

[C]

Of Texas Western because they, they, they, they remind you that, that you're not superhuman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Barry used to ride up to the, to the studio. We'd, we'd be out to lunch, and Barry would come out of nowhere on a horse, just kind of trotting up.

[C]

Yeah, right over, right over from where I kept the horse. It's about five miles over the there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He was braver than I. I just.

[C]

Trot over, trot over on my horse.

[A]

Barry and I would go riding together. And Barry, you were my mentor with, with my horse. I just so desperately wanted a horse. And then she reared me off. And anyway, we digress. But, but can we talk a little bit about that emotional level that you brought? At the same time, Talk to us about that, because you definitely had that. And of course, the writing gave you that as well. You, even in the pilot, you know, you were, you, you know, you had lost Shelly and you and John moment together. But talk to us about that emotional level that you brought to the character.

[C]

Well, it, you know, the, the, that was from, from my sense memory pretty much. You know, the, the, the feelings that I had when I was. When I was younger and didn't have too much confidence dating these beautiful girls. And I always thought I wasn't good enough for him, and I was always uncomfortable, you know, and I think Maurice never got beyond that. He never got beyond where he saw a woman as a full human being, you know, and you got to get beyond that before you have a relationship with anybody.

[B]

Did you like the storyline when it started to emerge that the kind of triangle triangulated Love story?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I like that. John. John Cullum told me one time, he said. He said, they. They cast me as Gary Cooper, and then they started trying to cut my balls off. And I said, well, you got to fight them on that. Don't let them do that, because they'll do that. They'll try to do that to you. You know, they put that kind of thing and they did some of that to me, you know, iron in the underwear and stuff. But it was funny. I mean, there was a reason for it.

[A]

Yeah, but see, I felt that you did that and you didn't lose your sense of humanity. I didn't feel that that did that to you at all. I mean, we knew we were established.

[C]

One of the things that I have that Maurice never had is a sense of humor about himself, right? Yeah, he had no. He had absolutely no sense of humor about himself. He had, you know, he'd laugh at things, but he was always laughing at something bad happening to somebody else.

[A]

But he had. He had the ability to come around full circle and to take his own inventory, which you did beautifully. I mean, I think that, that, that in. In the. In the one episode, you know, where. Where you. You defended wa and you gave Chris his job back and you forgave him. That was a sense of humility and depth. And also, I think the fact that you showed up in this episode four, you know, with the wedding, and you sang at the wedding anyway, even though, you know, Shelly just. You wanted to marry her, and she says, will you just sing at my wedding? And you did it. And I think that just the innate showing up to sing at that wedding. And Barry, that performance of yours, when you were singing that song and you were singing it so bad.

[C]

You should have seen. I was looking at John Cullen the whole time he was going.

[A]

John Cullen being a great Broadway singing star.

[B]

But that's a good point you make, Janine. It was. It was a fearless. It was fearless what you did. You just. You just. I mean, it was very funny and fearless. And I think Maurice often, you Know, you. You went for it in ways, you know, that, that were surpr. And. And I think the contradictions they found, you know, you say, you know, they would cut your balls off or stuff, but I think sometimes that created something fresh, you know, something unexpected, you know, that, that someone like Maurice could have that kind of emotional, you know, reservoir that you just wouldn't suspect. I'm curious what you thought about the astronaut of it all. Like, did you. Did you do any research or anything like that or.

[C]

Oh, as we. As the show progressed, I got to know some of them. I got to know Wally Sherra and Al Shepard and some of those guys.

[B]

Is that because they reached out to you when the show was on the air or.

[C]

No, I did. I did the narration for the television show Moonshot. Oh, right, which Deke Slayton was supposed to do it. He died. And then they asked me to do it it. And once I did that, then I narrated the whole book. I did the whole book unabridged. So I got to know some of them pretty well. They were interesting fellas. They were interesting guys.

[B]

This time of year, everyone talks about going dry, but at Athletic Brewing Co. We're skipping that because we prefer going Athletic, which isn't dry at all.

[C]

From cr.

[B]

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[A]

Speaking of voiceover, when I move moved back to Texas and purchased once Northern Exposure was picked up for 5, 050 episodes at once, which is unheard of. This thing unheard of. And this thing clicked in me where I never thought I missed Texas. And suddenly I was like. When we were picked up for 50, I suddenly was like, I want a horse, I want to pick up truck, and I want a ranch. It just. I wanted to go back to Texas. I never knew I wanted to go back to Texas. But anyway, in 1995, when I moved back to Texas, I had a stair. A radio in my. In my barn. And Barry's voice, your voice was always coming on because you were doing the voiceovers for the radio station, country radio station. And I forget which one it was. But you know what's so funny is I thought Barry bought the radio station. He's doing all the videos. Barry bought the radio station. And I look back at naive. And I even texted you, Barry. I'm like, barry, did you buy this radio station? Because you were always doing that. What was it? What station was it you were at?

[C]

Station? It was 99. Five the wolf.

[A]

That's it. That's it.

[B]

I just want to point out though, that, you know, we were talking about the 50 order. I just want to clarify that for the audience because back in the day when we did the show and until probably streaming started, the average order for a network TV show and that was the only thing there were. Were network TV shows was 22 episodes a year. And so you would. You never knew if you were coming back the next year. And so every year there, as you got to the end of the season, I mean, if the show was doing well, everyone had a sense of it. But things could. You never knew for sure. And after our. We did two truncated seasons originally because we were summer replacement series. So we did eight episodes and then we did seven. And then the show took off and the network did something that was unprecedented, I think, until that point, whereas they ordered 50 episodes over two years. And so we all, we all knew we had, you know, real long term, you know, employment and, and, you know, and Janine was able to, to. To buy a ranch and we were all. Were able to kind of change our lifestyles. But nowadays if a network show maybe does 15 episodes and the streamers do 6, 8, 12. So it's a whole different economic.

[A]

Yeah, seven. Yeah. I mean, 50. Nobody gets 50 anymore. And you're like, wow, we made it. So, you know, I want to, you know, we were talking about the vulnerability of characters. Thanks, Rob, for explaining that. The vulnerability of characters. And Rob, you and I have this moment in the show where we have all. And I think one of the things I've mentioned this before that made the scenes in Northern Exposure work so well is they were never static. You know, we were never just standing together and talking over a table. We were always moving, moving, moving with these great backgrounds behind us. And so in this episode, you know, the, the director, there was this fast walk and talk, walk and talk, walk and talk. And we, we kind of clicked in. You know, I kind of clicked into this character. But there's that funny moment, Rob. And then I want to talk about one with Barry. There was that funny moment when, when I'm talking about showing up that they're going to get married again. And we're on the street of Roslyn or Sicily and I said, they're going to get married again. And we Go back and forth. And I, you know, say, your socks are horrible and all of that. And I'm at you, and then we turn around and we have this moment, and I'm like, okay, I apologize about your socks. And then you say, well, what about. I say, what about you? I say, maggie says to Fleischman, you gonna get married to Elaine in New York? I guess, you know. And you're like, oh, yeah. And then you turn to me and say, you and Rick? And I say. I go like, yeah, sure, we're gonna. And then I look right at you, go, why not? They're like, what, you think he's not gonna marry me? There was just that quick turn of defensiveness, and they cut out of it really quickly. I wish they'd stayed in it seconds. Because I, like, lean into you. And I go, why not?

[B]

That's really starting to kind of ratchet up the. The thing. The relationship between Mag. You know, the potential love story between Maggie and Joel. Because we're both kind of, like, thinking something else. Yeah, I have someone else, but there's something here. You know, it's. Even unconsciously, it was. I could see it on both of our expressions, you know, that we were thinking. You know, the characters were thinking, oh, what? Where is this going? What is going on here? Such an interesting dynamic between those two, you know, this kind repulsion attraction. Repulsion attraction.

[A]

Well, they had a lot of pride, you know, they weren't going to be vulnerable. They were really afraid to be vulnerable. And that's the one note I got from Joshua Brand, which was, you have. Don't play the. We've said this before in our earlier episode, in case somebody missed it. Don't play the attraction. It's there. Like, just let it be there.

[B]

You don't. That's what I guess, what I'm talking about. Yeah. Because it was. You could see it. Right, Right.

[A]

And so in that episode, I guess I was just like, okay, I'm gonna rise above it. But, Barry, I wanna ask you about that scene. You had so many great scenes. The singing, one of them. When you're entertaining the men from Japan, and you have that great line, I'm sorry, I've got to go. Because, you know, warm liquor gives me gas, you know. And then Fleischman's like, what are you doing? We're trying to make a deal. But really your mind is just on Shelley. But that scene when it's raining on the golf course, I thought that would be really fun to talk about, because Rob and I know what it's like, there probably was no rain. They had to do a rain machine onto the car. Barry, you're completely dry. You have great dialogue in that scene. And, Rob, you're sopping wet, so they must have had to have hosed you down. So what I want to ask both of you is if what. What that scene was like to film. And, Rob, were you cold? Because it was summer, but still, it's probably nippy. And you were sopping wet. And then, Barry, you're, like, dry as a bone, and you're having that great scene with the windshield wipers going. And I'm sure it was fake rain. You want. Y' all want to talk about that for a second, go ahead.

[B]

Barry, do you remember.

[C]

I don't remember it at all.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Well, you guys are. Watched the show. I haven't watched it at all, so I don't. I don't.

[B]

It's a sweet scene where we. We sit in the front of your car and it's pouring, and I get in, and I don't think I was cold, Janine, because I can tell by looking at my. I can tell when I'm cold. And. And I was often cold on Northern Exposure, but I wasn't cold there. But we kind of come to. To some terms right throughout the scene. And.

[A]

And so it was fake rain, right, Rob? Wasn't the rain.

[B]

Of course. Yeah, definitely rain trees.

[A]

I just think that's interesting for people to know. And then the location.

[C]

It never rains hard enough to where. Where you're gonna. It's gonna register as rain. You know, it looked like a little mist or something, right?

[B]

Yeah. It's amazing how often it can be raining in a scene and it doesn't show up. And you can shoot, you know, and you'll be like. They'll be like, keep shooting. And be like, but it's raining. And say, don't worry, it doesn't show up. Especially on film. I'm not so much as much. Maybe on video it shows up a little more.

[C]

Well, on HD and show up more, but.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That. That's something new. We didn't have that.

[B]

How many. How many days a week do you think you averaged shooting on North Exposure?

[C]

Oh, maybe three.

[B]

Three days a week. And so then you had the rest of the time, and you had your family up there. You moved everyone kind of from the. Right away, you all moved up there, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until. Until we started having a little difficulty, right?

[B]

Yeah. And you brought. That's.

[C]

That's why I'm broke now.

[A]

My dad Would always say, yeah, I.

[C]

Brought some horses up there and I bought some horses up there.

[B]

Right, that's right.

[C]

So it was. I had a good time. I mean, it was a. It was a great time. I. I never. I never did think of it as. As something that's going to go on forever. You know, a lot of times people think these, These things are just going to keep like gun smoke or something, you know?

[B]

Right.

[C]

I would be bored to death playing one character for. For my whole career.

[B]

Did you get bored. Was there a point where in. In the five years we did it, six years, I guess, that you. Were you bored at times of thinking, I can't do this anymore?

[C]

No, no, no. Never. Never in that show. When they changed producers, I started having a kind of a warlike relationship with the new production bunch.

[B]

Because you didn't like the way they were, the direction they were taking the show?

[C]

Yeah, no, I didn't care for that.

[A]

No, I didn't either. I didn't either, actually. I just want to interject. I. Go ahead, Barry.

[C]

I thought they were heading us for cancellation almost immediately.

[B]

But you were wrong. Right. Because it lasted five years. So at what point did you think we were going off a cliff?

[C]

When they started changing the, you know, making the weird kind of. Of character transitions, I think. I think that's when I started, you know, I started having conversations back on the phone with the guys back in California. I said, look, guys, you're. And I talked to the network, too. I talked to who was running the network then. I can't remember.

[B]

Jeff Sagansky, I think.

[A]

No, by then it was Peter Tortikoff, I think.

[B]

No, it was Jeff Sagansky. And Peter took over in 95.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he'd say, oh, no, no, we're not canceling it. It hadn't been canceled. I said, no, you're. Look, I know what you're doing. Just. Just tell me. And what was it?

[B]

What was it that they were doing?

[C]

I thought they were. I thought they were getting us canceled. I thought they didn't like. They. They were. I thought there was something going on, as it turned out. I guess they were having a lawsuit back in California, but I didn't know anything about that.

[A]

Right, well, I'd like to speak to that a little bit because what I feel happened. And just so the audience knows, because, Rob, you're always so. So adept at letting the audience understand what's going on. You know, I guess it was around episode season four, and we're kind of ahead ourselves. We should probably really Stay on episode four. But. So we'll talk about this just a little bit. But, I mean, at season four, Joshua and John left. Left the show and they brought in David Chase. And at that same time, our cinematographer left, Frank Prinze, who'd won an Emmy and whatnot, and they brought in another cinematographer. And I remember calling Universal, and I didn't know you were doing it at the same time, Barry, so that's really interesting. And Rob, you were still on the show, but I called and said, what are you doing? You know, David Chase is great for the Sopranos maybe, or whatever he was doing. I said, but he's dark and he's not Northern Exposure. And this is the wrong producer for Northern Exposure. I really felt that.

[C]

I'd like to say one thing. He, He. He said after the show was canceled, he was on the television interview show. And I saw the show. He said, I never liked the show. It was too precious.

[A]

Well, there you go.

[C]

He used those words well, and I.

[B]

Think he only hated it.

[A]

He said, he said once, what are you worried about? It's just tv, I think.

[B]

So wait, just to clarify, you guys, the audience may not be tracking this. John, Josh. Josh Brand and John FY created Northern Exposure. They, they, they ran the show and were in charge of every aspect of it for 66 episodes, which down to the last edit, took us past to the. At the end of that 50 order that we were speaking of. And then they felt that they had. There was nothing more they could do with the show. And so they decided to leave. And John really wanted to leave, and Josh was willing to stay, but they were a team, so they decided to leave. And then we had Andy and Diane Schneider. They were, they kind of. They were writers who had been on the show as executive producers. They were writing their team, a couple lovely people, lovely writers. And then. But for some reason, the. The studio wasn't quite comfortable with them running the show, even though they really were, and continued to for a lot of it. But they brought on David Chase, who had not done Sopranos yet. Sopranos became his big hit after. And he ran the show for the last few seasons. Seasons. And it was. He took it as a. You know, this is not speaking out of school. He's. He's admitted to this. He took it as a paycheck, and it was not his kind of show. And. But again, you know, because he's a professional and dedicated, I still think, you know, I don't want, as you said, Janine, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. But there was a lot of good episodes in that period, too. You know, the show was.

[A]

I think there were, but. Yeah, but what happened was I. That I think we should get off of this. Right. But I mean, what I didn't like was that suddenly there was a washroom. There was like a laundry room. And Maggie o' Connell went from being this bush pilot and, you know, chopping wood and outdoors to suddenly all my scenes were in the laundry room. I'm like, what's happening? So it definitely went down. An interesting. And even the new cinematographer that came on after Frank left made everything dark and would line shots up with, you know, electrical plugs behind people's heads. So, anyway, we digress. Let's go back to episode four.

[B]

Gordon Lonsdale, by the way, is the. Is. Was the third dp. And I thought he did good. I thought they all were great and brought unique qualities. I mean, Jimmy wrote it.

[A]

Well, they pressured. They pressured. They pressured Gordon to make it fast and to be. To get it done quickly.

[B]

Well, that's the other thing. Wait. I'll just point out that as. As a show goes on, it become. They. They. The. In order to make the finances work for the studio, not for us, but they have to keep trying to figure out ways to make it cheaper. So they.

[A]

They changed our night. They changed our night, too. We went from the Monday night to Thursday night.

[B]

When was that?

[A]

I don't know. But can we go back to episode four? I think that's what we need to talk about. So. So, I mean, this is really interesting. We could certainly get into this, like, for 100, 110 episodes. But. But, Barry, what. Do you remember anything about this episode? The Putting greens? Rob, do. I've talked about my favorite lines, you know, some of my favorite scenes. Another favorite scene of mine was. Was when I go up to you at the wedding, and I'm like, do you have the ring? You're like, yeah, I have the ring. I'm like, show me the ring. And then you drop it, you know, and it goes. And then. And then John Corbett. And. And also that. That scene on the golf course where I tell you that Chris is gonna. Gonna be the priest, so to speak, at the wedding. You're like, he's ordained. I'm like, yeah, you answered an ad in the back of the Rolling Stone. There were just so many great quirks. So I'd love to hear from both of you. Maurice, I. I'd love. Barry, I'd love to hear what you. What you loved about your character. What you wrote, you know, what. What maybe some of the challenges were. And Rob, what were some of your favorite lines from on the show and from episode four?

[C]

I loved working with Michael Paul Chan in the show. I worked with him later in the Closer, and we both had some good memories of that particular show because he pretended he couldn't speak English. And the last line he had to me. Oh, God. On Maurice Sing for the kids wedding.

[A]

You remember that? You remember that?

[C]

Yeah. He said that to me. And I. And, you know, I. I was thunderstruck because I said, you likey and stuff like that, you know, to him, because he. He was. I figured he didn't speak any English, and he was. He was pretending he did so. But no, I just enjoyed the. I enjoyed the idea that he was trying to put together a golf course in this place where nobody played golf. He wanted to make it a tourist destination, but the only way to get there was in. In one of those floater planes, you know, coming into a lake. And it was. The whole thing was impractical.

[A]

Yeah. And what about your love for Ms. Northwest Passage? I mean, one of your ending. One of your closing lines was I'll always remember her. I guess that's where that line came from. I wrote it down. Memories. It was one of the great lines of what I wrote down. Let me find it. Memories can't take memories away. Your last line was, I'll always remember, you know, Shelly in the bikini with the crown on. And you can't take memories away. And I think that's such a profound line and life, isn't it?

[C]

That's exactly what I was talking about. He never knew Shelly as a person. Person. She was always a symbol, and she never would have been a person to Maurice. She was a person to Holling. I mean, she was a full person. That's why Maurice couldn't have, you know, his actual. You know, the actual relationship he had was with. With Shymansky. But he didn't see her as a person either. He saw her as a. As an authority symbol.

[B]

Right. Yeah. He put Shelley up on a pedestal like that. It was such interesting scene where you're sitting with her and you touch her face and she kind of knocks your hand away. Do you remember Barry shooting at that first location that was your house. You remember that place we were the first couple episodes.

[C]

Crazy place that that man owned. It was. Was. He was a strange duck.

[B]

Right. There was all this Nazi memorabilia and, like. Yeah. I think I remember going upstairs with you and saying. And looking at all that Stuff and going, wait a minute, where are we?

[C]

And they always, he always had at least one. One pistol on him somewhere. Well, the whole wall.

[B]

I mean, that's, I mean, it. I, I like what they. When they built the set and, and after that, we never went back. But, but the original set had weapons on every possible surface. The walls were guns and knives.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And it was, it was, it was wild.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, when they built, built the set, they had some of that, but they didn't. It was certainly not. Not like an armed fort, you know. Know.

[A]

Yeah, but the set was. That Woody created was still pretty amazing.

[B]

Amazing. Let me ask you this. What was the reception you got when you did speak to Josh and John or the network when you said, when you, when you said you had issues with where the show was going and what, what. How would, would they respond?

[C]

Well, the. I remember the first day shooting. Josh was directing the first episode, right? And I remember standing on the porch of that, that. In that little commune there. That. Where he bit. That he built. We're standing on the front porch with Josh. And I said, josh, I have never started a show with more anticipated and optimism as I have this one. And we're halfway through the first day and I'm becoming pessimistic.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

And he said, what's the matter? I said, well, you seem to want to act all the parts.

[B]

Oh, that's right. Remember?

[C]

And that's not, that's not going to work. Well, you've got to let us do our work.

[A]

By that, I think you mean giving line readings and, and just so everybody knows what a line reading is.

[C]

Just absolute.

[A]

Yeah, it's when the director comes, you know, and another thing we hated was faster. Faster or slower? Slower. Well, what does that even mean? But, you know, lot. Because if you're in a.

[C]

Somebody says faster, I know what that means. But a guy comes up and says to you, don't make that face.

[A]

Right?

[C]

That's not, that, that's not constructive. I've had directors say that to me. Don't make that face. I said, well, this is the face you hired. Why don't you fire it and get another one?

[B]

I've, I've, I've. I was, I bumped heads with Josh a lot. You know, that was the only episode he directed. I don't think he really considers himself a director. Director. And I don't think it's necessarily a strong suit. But, but I think it's worth pointing out for the audience is that, you know, the, the, the, the optimal Situation is where a director kind of encourages you to. In certain directions, but when they act out the part for you, it becomes, it becomes difficult indicate. It becomes, it becomes a way that you can't get it out of your, your head. And.

[C]

Yeah, but I can't do what he does exactly what I do. So.

[B]

Right. And you got someone like Barry Corbin, you know, there, you know, you just get out of his way is really the rule of thumb. It's like, you know, maybe say, push him a little this way, a little that way. But when you start doing his job, as he said, you really, you mess with the, the sensibility and the confidence. It takes incredible confidence to do what we do. I'm not saying that as a, I'm not bragging about it, but the courage that it takes to. In front of a hundred people, you know, with lights and, and, and, and sound and microphones and cameras and, and, and to have your feelings be right there takes a great amount of courage. And so the, the best directors create an environment where we can be. Do what we do. We know how to. You know, you hired us, as Barry said, because we know how to do what we do. So the ones that, that they usually, the less less experienced or less talented ones truly try to do it for you. You guys don't. You know what I mean?

[A]

Well, I think, I think what happens is they, you. I remember the big challenge on the set for all of us was from. And the. And listeners may not understand this, right? We had the same executive producers and the same. And a lot of different writers, but the same kind of overarching team that oversaw the, the general aesthetics of the writing. And they were in Los Angeles and we were in New York by ourselves. And every episode.

[B]

Not in Seattle.

[A]

Sorry, they were in Los Angeles. We were in Seattle. Right. We were in Seattle by ourselves. Thanks for correcting me on that. And. But every episode we had a new director and the directors would come in and then they'd have the executive producers from la, you know, breathing in their ears, telling them what they should and shouldn't do. And the directors come in and they don't know the characters as well as we know the characters. And they're having. They're kind of in a tough position really, but they're trying to direct us at the same time. But it was. What I find as an actor is really interesting. Interesting. Barry and Rob is to be able to be an actor that stays true to what you believe should be happening in the scene, but to be open to and respect the Director enough to hear what they have to say and then try to perhaps, you know, blend that into what they say into your performance without losing the performance, you know, that your character better than anybody else because, you know, once it goes to editing, they. If, if you give a director the scene that they want and say take five, well, that may be the scene they. They use. And it's not at all what you believe in organically as an actor, what should be there. So it's tricky when you get these directions, especially from these. From these guest directors, you know, about what they think you should do, because if you go whole full steam and give them that, that may be the performance that. That's there in editing. And we have absolutely no control over editing.

[B]

But ultimately, what I've learned as I've gotten older is you have to kind of give them what they want because they. It's not, it's not our. You know, on the stage, you're in charge when the curtain goes up. You know, as an actor, you're. It's your performance. Nobody can do anything at that point. Right. But when we, when we're shooting something and after we shoot it, it's out of our hands, they take it and they do whatever they're going to do to it, what they want to it. And so as far as I know, it's. It's like you have to try to find. You have to try to find a way to give them what they're after.

[A]

Yeah, but, Rob, you never wanted to give them what they were after. If there was everybody who debated a director, it was you, right? You are constantly debating the director. All I'm trying to say is, is you have to hold on to what you believe, of course, and try to give them a little bit of what they believe. I never said you shouldn't try to give them what they believe. You got to find that.

[B]

I wasn't saying you should. That. What I'm saying is that I learned since then.

[A]

Right, right, right, right.

[B]

Because, yeah, it's. It, It's. It's in their hands. So if you, if you go against it too much, you can end up hurting yourself because then they have to. Then they end up cutting your performance in a way that doesn't work. So it's a. It's a. It's alchemy, right? What we do, it's like it's. You just have to. You have to try to find a way. And it's unfortunate when we have people that are less experienced or don't know how to Encourage us to. To do. To find our truth, as you say you have. Of course, I'm not contradicting you in saying that we. We have to find our truth. But the director is ultimately the one who's. Who's in charge.

[A]

Well, not in television so much. I think the director's in charge of a movie. But in television, it's really the executive producers, the editors. The director's just there for one episode out of 110. So. But. But I agree with you, Rob, that that's what we all had to learn was. And I heard Sidney Pollack say something about Jessica Lange. You know, it's just the damnedest thing. I go up to Jessica Lange and tell her what I. And she just continues to do whatever she wants. You know what I mean? So it's that fine line between holding on to what you know is true to the character, but also being a team player. And I echo you, Rob. And that what we've learned in Barry, you know, you have to learn to be a team player and kind of give them what they want. But it's a little tricky.

[C]

The best direction. The best explanation for a direction that I ever had comes from Ethan Cohen. I was doing a scene in one of their movies, and there'd be no.

[B]

Country for Old Men. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And he and Joel would whisper to each other and then say, let's do it again. And after. After I'd finished all my work, I said, do you guys ever give anybody any direction? He said, if we cast it right, we don't have to.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I think that's. I think that is very smart.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of directors say that 90% of their job is casting.

[C]

Yeah. I remember that you were talking about that Walt Whitman speech, Janine. I remember when. When I was doing it, John Falcy was standing right in my eye line and laughing. Now, to me, that was very disturbing because Maurice had to take that very seriously.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And while it is funny in a way, I couldn't think of it funny. And so I asked him to move him out of my eye line, and they did. And it worked fine. And he didn't say anything. He didn't object or anything. That was fine. But I couldn't watch somebody laugh while I'm doing a speech like that because it was very serious to the character. Character.

[B]

Yeah. And I think Janine makes a good point about the directors coming on, you know, for one or two. I mean, some of ours came back once, a couple times, and they were always the ones we loved. But but it's true that when you have a director that's there nowadays, it's different, you know, which is maybe my point is that a lot of directors are the director for the entire season because they're doing eight shows or they're. They're doing, you know, half the episodes. And so it's a different animal. But back to then, you did have someone show up who didn't know the character as well as you when. After you've done 50 episodes. And so. So I do think, you know, that you. You have. So I guess to clarify my point, you have to challenge where. When you're. When you feel like it's going against what's right for the show, but ultimately you have to get out of the way and say, you know, it's not. I'm not in charge. So that's my.

[A]

It's a blend. It's a blend. I think. I think Rob and I. You are in a. You are agreeing, and I think even Barry. We're all agreeing. That's the challenge, right? Rob, you were talking about being in front of 100 people. Barry, you're talking about that intimate moment when you've got the executive producer in your eye line. It's just like, ready, action. And you have to go and do it and try to bring all that you can, but it's staying true to what we believe. As you said, the Coen brothers, if you hire the right actor, you don't need to give direction, but then also trying to be a team player and take some of the direction the director wants to give you and not. Not be a complete. You know. You know, I'm not going to listen to anything you have to say. It's. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's tricky. It's really tricky because we all know as actors that as soon as we finish, it's going to Los Angeles and the editor is going to have it. The executive producers are going to have it. And Barry, in closing here, pretty much. Did you have any looping? Because you remember how they'd make us change our lines and change our performances and looping.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, I had some of that, but most of it was because of, you know, external noises or something, you know.

[A]

Oh, not for Rob and me. Our looping wasn't like that.

[C]

Well, some of it was changing the intent of the thing. And I would. Usually I'd do it, but occasionally I'd have an argument with them about it. Yeah, it's. You gotta pick your fight you know, you can't just fight about everything.

[A]

I learned that from Joshua Brand. Joshua Brand said, choose your battles.

[B]

It's an interesting thing that the looping thing. Looping is. Is where we end, add dialogue after we've shot it. We go into a studio after they've edited it, and they'll either, for the sound, like, I had a habit of dragging my feet on the street. And so they had to. I. I often had to replace my dialogue, which means I have to sync it to myself, watching my image and talk exactly the same way I did so that they could replace it. But a lot of times in this show, and I think this is where Janine and I kind of chafed a bit. They would, they, they felt. They, they. They felt like they didn't want there to be any dead air. And so if the shot was behind our back and we weren't speaking, they'd have us add a bunch of dialogue that didn't necessarily, to Barry's point, fit. It just seemed like they wanted to fill the air. And it used to drive me crazy. And when I watch the episodes, I can always spot those moments where one of us is saying something. Something that it didn't seem in keeping, but they just wanted to fill the hole, you know, I think nowadays there's a little more. You can be a little more relaxed with that, the way you edit.

[C]

A lot of times the important thing is the silence, you know?

[B]

Absolutely. That's what I'm getting. That's my point.

[C]

That, that, that is. That that's the most important. It's more important than what you're saying.

[B]

Absolutely. And they would get rid of. Of it, which would drive me crazy.

[A]

That's because they wanted it to be a comedy. But. But what they did do and is they would stay on our faces. They. They would let the camera stay on our faces for a little bit, especially in the beginning. Now, of course, they. They cut off somebody's face in a millisecond, you know, because everything's got to move so quickly and drives me nuts. And I love watching a show like ours or shows from our genre, you know, where they actually would let the camera play on someone's face because that's.

[C]

Well, they got that MTV editing now. You know, you go from this to that to that to that, and it. It gives me a headache.

[A]

And there's a real manipulation in it too. That may be contraindicative. What's the word? Contraind.

[B]

But it's also come back, you know, to. To what we were trying shows Like Severance, the. These shows really allow quiet. It's. It's. It's really a cinematic approach as opposed to a television approach, you know, where you can just let things stay on people's faces. It's ra.

[A]

It's so rare today. It really is. And, you know, I think it'd be fun since we close each show on Northern Exposure in such a profound, meaningful way. It'd be interesting to close this one on. And I just want to see what both of you think about this. It's interesting. When I look at my notes of great lines, Maggie says to Fleischman, walking down the street, you know, before we become a distant, distasteful memory to each other, right? It was funny, but it was like, why don't we figure this out before we become a distant, distasteful memory to each other? And. And then, Barry, you in the show was saying, can't take memories away, so that the. The show was kind of bookended about memories. And even if. I don't. I don't know. I know you said that she was putting her on a pedestal, but he still had a memory in his heart. He loved her in his way. Right. Would you say? And it was a memory that. That she cherished. And so I thought it might be kind of cool to go out talking about memories. You know, we're talking about memories. And here how much I love working with you, Barry, and cherish you and Rob, you know, I've talked about how much I love work and working with you and cherish you and kind of this. The professionalism. And it's really interesting, this show, right? The professionalism, how we all attacked it from. From different ways. But memories are really beautiful things that can be haunting as well, but they're beautiful. And sometimes we have to continue to contend with them, good or bad, through the rest of our lives. But anybody want to have a little take on that kind of wonderful way they ended the show? And about how, Maurice, that last line of yours, when you said you can't take that memory away.

[C]

Well, sometimes you can't take good memories away, and sometimes you can't take. You can't forget bad memories. And sometimes the good memories just become very ephemeral. You know, Know, you. You have little flashes and bad memories. You remember like it's a knife stabbing you over and over again.

[A]

So why is that, I wonder?

[C]

It's not a choice. It's not a choice we make. It's a. It's. It's some subliminal trigger, and we just have to learn to live with it. I've done. I've done a few things that I'm a little ashamed of and I have to keep living with it.

[B]

Yeah, I've done a lot of things I'm ashamed of, for sure. I. I find the memories interesting in that. Like what. What's fascinating, watching these episodes is the moments where I don't have the, even the slightest memory of doing it. Like, for instance, at the end of this show, I come out in there and the moose is in the town, right? And the only time we interacted with that moose, any of us, it was me in that scene. And I don't have not the slightest memory of shooting that scene. And it almost as if I'm watching someone else. And you know, oftentimes when I'm watching an episode, it'll come back to me as I'm watching it. Oh, yeah. And you know, and it usually is more about what was going on between us, the actors, than the characters, you know. Oh, you know, Janine just got her new truck that week and drove up and, you know, or whatever it was and. But it's fascinating what doesn't stick, you know, it's fascinating because it's as is. It's as if it doesn't exist. It's like watching someone else.

[A]

I've had some episodes like that. I'm like, I don't even really remember that one. But, you know, and as I'm thinking about Rob, about what you're saying and Barry, that's very profound what you're saying. It is true that it seems like the more intense memories last and. Which is really challenging as a mother. Right. Like, don't you remember all the great times? How many conversations have we had that with our kids? Don't you remember Disneyland? I remember I was talking to a mother who has taken her six year old to Disneyland and my daughter is now off in college and like trying to find some. And I'm like, go ahead, take them to Disneyland. But they won't remember it. I was being so cynical. She had this look on her face like, really? They won't remember it later and they'll hate you later, but go ahead, take them to Disneyland. But nevertheless, the point I'm making is it's like if I were to think about that scene, those scenes between the two of us, Rob, I remember going to the golf course. I remember that. I don't necessarily remember the specifics of the scene in Sicily, you know, in Rosslyn, in the streets of. Of Sicily, but it's Essences, isn't it? And that's what I love, is the essence of a person. It's like, okay, there may be good memories, there may be bad memories, but now my father has passed. He passed in 2014. And there were so many good things, there were so many challenging things with my father, but there was an essence of love and an essence of connection I will always have. And so I think, in a way, with memories, it's the essence we have around them. And I think that, you know, filming Northern Exposure was joyous and beautiful and challenging and creative and so much fun. And it was also so difficult and challenging and at times exhausting and. And. But the essence of our experience with one another is one is. I think one of the reasons we can come together and do this, these podcasts, and have so much fun, because we just remember the essence. Overall, the essence was.

[B]

I think you're right. I think that's a great place to. To. To tie it up here. You know, Barry, this has been so. Just. Just looking at you, and I think, to Jeanine's point about Essence, Essences, I just have such a fond place in my heart from that whole time with you. Acting with you was a joy. I don't remember ever having a conflict about a scene. You know, we talk about challenging directors, but I don't ever remember thinking, oh, Barry should do this or I should do. You know, we. It just was effortless. We were working with you, and. And that is the essence that I have of. Of our relationship.

[C]

So that's the way it should be. I talk and you listen, and then you talk and I listen and we respond to each other. There was a story about Joel McCrae and Will Rogers, and they were about to do a scene together. John Ford was directing, and Joel McCrae was looking at his script one last time. And Will Rogers reached over and took his script and threw it in the back of the buckboard. He was driving a team of horses, and he said, don't worry about that. He said, I'll talk a little while. And then you say something and I'll talk a while. And that's what the did. And somebody asked John Ford what it was like to direct Will Rogers. And he said, are you crazy? Nobody directs Will Rogers. And if he was in a play, he'd walk down to the footlights and see the mayor there, and he'd see Jimmie Walker. He said, well, Mr. Mayor, I see you can't keeping the bars open till four in the morning. I don't see no sense in that if you can't get drunk by midnight, you ain't trying, then they'd come back and get back into play.

[B]

Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on, Barry. Thank you for, for. I'm so glad you're still kicking and doing great things and working. And every time I see on screen, I, I, I always love what you're doing. You never cease to do something. Some beautiful, you beautiful work. So thanks for, thanks for coming and hopefully maybe we'll get you back on again.

[C]

Thank you. And I hope we, I hope we work together again sometime, and I'm sure we will. You know, usually, Usually it goes around. Come. You know, if you want to work with somebody, you'll end up doing it again.

[B]

Well, I want to work with you, so.

[A]

Yeah. And I'd love. It'd be great to have you back on. And, Barry, I just want to say, every scene that you're in, you steal the scene. I mean, you just do. You steal the scene. You're in total command, whether, whether it's, whatever the emotion may be. And I think you're a very versatilely, emotionally talented actor, because it didn't matter. You brought so many layers to it, and you always, you always steal the scene. And I agree with Rob. Working with you was a joy. We were the youngsters, you know, and. But you were always like a father figure and loving and kind and helpful, but also just mesmerizing to watch you work. I still, when I watch the show, I'm like, wow, look at him. He steals every scene.

[C]

Sylvester Stallone said to me after watching dailies one time, he said, do you always sit still, scenes like that? Ah, there you go. If they'd write me some dialogue, I wouldn't have to because I didn't have anything to say in that scene. So I just made some stuff up.

[A]

And he thought, and he thought you stole the scene. Is that what he. Is that what he said?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. They had a camera on me and the camera, Two cameras on the two. They were talking and I was sitting at the bar. I didn't have anything to say, so I just started dipping into the tip jar. Stealing money.

[A]

Yeah. Well, see, there you go. It's just put the camera on you and let you go to town because you're thinking. I think Josh talked about that too. When actors actually think you can see it on the screen, and that's what you always do. But Barry. Love you, Rob. You know I love you. And next week we have. Next show we have Cynthia Geary.

[B]

All right, great.

[A]

Tell her hello for me, Ms. Northwest passage message I caught. I called to ask her on the show last week. And I mean, yesterday was it? Yes, just yesterday. And we, we talked for two hours. So anyway, we'll have a lot of fun. And Barry, thank you. Come back. Right. Barry.

[C]

All right. Yeah.

[A]

North to the future.

[B]

North to the future.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

Yeah. And so next week it'll be Northern Exposure with o' Connell and Fleischmann.

[B]

I think maybe it should be Fleischman o', Connell, now that I think about it.

[A]

Right. In your dreams, Fleischman. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.